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Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

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On the call sheet it says there's a montage of clips from the series-I'll bet any money they will somehow create a montage of clips that are solely about Regina, how all her victims ruined her life, probably a clip of Emma saying 'Everyone deserves a happy ending' to Regina (and that will be Emma's biggest clip in it), Snow saying 'We forgive you' and so on until they stop on the present scene of Regina being crowned and the last scene is Regina smiling with her happy ending.

I can sense this.

I've never been happier that I don't watch this anymore.

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Oh, my goodness. Ginnifer Goodwin actually is Snow, isn't she?

I do not believe that the pitch that originally brought GG and Jennifer Morrison to the show was "We're writing a show in which the EQ gets her happy ending." I just don't.  

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1 hour ago, Kktjones said:

On another note, has anyone read the latest EW interview with Ginny & Josh? I always liked those two, but wow! do they have an interesting take on the series and the finale. Warning: do not read if you do not like Regina. Could cause massive eye-rolling, gagging, and a strong need to flip a table.

According to IMDB, Ginny's next project is with ABC so that may explain a lot. Also they are both professionals who like/need to work and aren't superstars who can say/do what they want in terms of bad mouthing a series, cast, writers, producers or network. The only actor on the show who has some clout in the industry is Robert and even his clout is not mega levels.  So  my take is Ginny and Josh are holding the party line.   Everyone involved on the show (actors, writers showrunners) all want to work again, so I fully expect if we'll never hear about the behind the scene feelings, manipulations etc,  If we do, it won't be for years (kinda like the Sex in the City feud that didn't imploded for a long time).

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11 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

So  my take is Ginny and Josh are holding the party line.

Plus, I  suspect even if they might not have been happy with how the writing was in the later years, they have mainly fond memories of the show and what it did for them, and do not want to bad mouth it.  

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3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Hook and WHook are merged, so if one dies the other does too.

Oh, right. 

Well, it's not like Rumple was thinking about that when he makes his sacrifice, nor is it likely Hook will ever know or care.

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Oh thanks. It's still confusing. But I can see Weaver sacrificing himself to save Alice. He does seem to have some affection for her. After everything he did to Hook Prime, it is sort of fitting that he should sacrifice himself to save the daughter of a different Hook. 

He also legitimately likes Rogers, strangely enough. It's fitting that he'd die saving him and his daughter from the Rumple who actually would have killed Rogers' Milah and cut off his hand and basically ruined his life (before Gothel re-ruined it, that is).

 

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Though, wait, didn't we get spoilers that Wish Henry and Older SB Henry are both at the coronation? So that would imply that not everyone gets combined, or that perhaps nobody actually does. Jared and Andrew are both on the call sheet for the coronation scene.

They merge in terms of soul connection, not literally fusing together, otherwise that Rumple death scene couldn't happen the way it's described.

Edited by Inquirer
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4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Oh, my goodness. Ginnifer Goodwin actually is Snow, isn't she?

I do not believe that the pitch that originally brought GG and Jennifer Morrison to the show was "We're writing a show in which the EQ gets her happy ending." I just don't.  

It's not, S1 was so drastically different from everything else, there was never much of a plan outside of the initial premise of establishing the characters and breaking the initial curse.

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10 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I do not believe that the pitch that originally brought GG and Jennifer Morrison to the show was "We're writing a show in which the EQ gets her happy ending." I just don't.  

It's strange because whenever Adam and Eddy said that line in the past, it was always to describe the premise of the curse as 'What if the EQ could only get her happy ending in the real world and therefore cast a curse to come here' kind of way. I never took it as this entire show is about how the EQ gets her happy ending. Or did I somehow misunderstand them for years?

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20 minutes ago, superloislane said:

It's strange because whenever Adam and Eddy said that line in the past, it was always to describe the premise of the curse as 'What if the EQ could only get her happy ending in the real world and therefore cast a curse to come here' kind of way. I never took it as this entire show is about how the EQ gets her happy ending. Or did I somehow misunderstand them for years?

Initially, it probably wasn't, there's no way any of this was part of any original idea at the start, maybe they became obsessed with the EQ over time.

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5 hours ago, Free said:

Initially, it probably wasn't, there's no way any of this was part of any original idea at the start, maybe they became obsessed with the EQ over time.

It's definitely this. They wrote this Evil Queen villain, who, let's be honest, was pretty great in the first season. She was so deliciously evil, with such fabulous outfits, and it was just so much fun to hate her and look forward to her eventual downfall. The trouble is that villains have shelf lives. At a certain point, you need to defeat them or redeem them. They didn't want to lose the character, so they went with redemption, but the problem there is that to truly properly redeem someone, she needs to change, and if she really changed enough to be properly redeemed, she wouldn't still be that deliciously evil character that they were trying to preserve. So they just basically declared her a good guy, but changed nothing significant about her attitudes and behaviours. And the series has been on a downward slide ever since that declaration.

I always thought they should have kept her as the baddie and defeated her after a season or two — but trapping or binding her or something, rather than killing her, so that they could bring her back somehow as the biggest baddest for the series' epic final clash. Heck, you could even work a happy ending for her into that if she somehow was convinced to be redeemed and sacrificed herself for some noble reason, and then we see her being reborn as a new baby in some sort of likely-to-get-a-proper-happy-ending new life or something.

But yeah, the point we all seem to come back to is that "redeeming" her without any real change or even remorse for her past actions is what contributed the most to killing this show's potential.

Conversely, if they really wanted to write a show where the baddie's happy ending is the endgame, they could have done that too, but the whole POV would have had to shift from day one. That is not the show they presented us with in the first season.

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41 minutes ago, kingshearte said:

It's definitely this. They wrote this Evil Queen villain, who, let's be honest, was pretty great in the first season. She was so deliciously evil, with such fabulous outfits, and it was just so much fun to hate her and look forward to her eventual downfall. The trouble is that villains have shelf lives. At a certain point, you need to defeat them or redeem them. They didn't want to lose the character, so they went with redemption, but the problem there is that to truly properly redeem someone, she needs to change, and if she really changed enough to be properly redeemed, she wouldn't still be that deliciously evil character that they were trying to preserve. So they just basically declared her a good guy, but changed nothing significant about her attitudes and behaviours. And the series has been on a downward slide ever since that declaration.

I always thought they should have kept her as the baddie and defeated her after a season or two — but trapping or binding her or something, rather than killing her, so that they could bring her back somehow as the biggest baddest for the series' epic final clash. Heck, you could even work a happy ending for her into that if she somehow was convinced to be redeemed and sacrificed herself for some noble reason, and then we see her being reborn as a new baby in some sort of likely-to-get-a-proper-happy-ending new life or something.

But yeah, the point we all seem to come back to is that "redeeming" her without any real change or even remorse for her past actions is what contributed the most to killing this show's potential.

Conversely, if they really wanted to write a show where the baddie's happy ending is the endgame, they could have done that too, but the whole POV would have had to shift from day one. That is not the show they presented us with in the first season.

Agreed, not allowing to show remorse cheated the character and the actress.  The issue is that they kind of changed the character of Regina Mills..(in our world version)  after S1.  Sure she did nasty things but most of them were sneaky manipulations and she seemed ambivalent about her past...("I know what it is like to feel that kind of darkness, you can loose yourself in it.".or something like that) and seemed okay in her new role as a the cold ball buster as opposed to evil maniac...even killing Graham looked different then when we see the EQ enjoying killing.  Mayor Mills was clearly the villain but still redeemable ..but as soon as the curse broke she went back to full on evil, flip flopping with crying all the time..none of it was very entertaining..you couldn't love to hate her as she was so whiny, and you couldn't want her redemption as they kept showing her being an out and out crazed b*tch in our world, from attempting to kill Charming, to having her admit to killing Owen's dad without a shred or remorse. It was so disappointing as LP in S1 reminded me of a old 30s /40s movie vixen..a bit of heart under the stone facade, and the character just had more depth...a slow simmering evolution/redemption would have been great..but then they would have had to limit *some* of Regina's screen time and quit showing a new murder/massacre that the EQ instigated.

They could have even recovered some of that this season. A good idea would have been for Driz/Gothel who ever controlled the curse, to make Regina fall in love with one of her past victims, say a guy whose family got caught in a massacre, and instead of blowing it off like Blandie Hood, he is angry as hell, but cursed to fall in love with Roni. So, Regina is awake but really does love this guy and Driz gives her a choice in waking him up or not..but Regina makes the right choice and gives him his free will and he she has to A) loose someone she loves because of her past actions and see her remorse on her past deeds and we get to see a victim who has a realistic reaction to her who is not painted a s villain and killed off.

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Wow I never thought I'd see the day where Adam says that Emma was the heart and soul of the show. I guess that's as close to any admiting that doing S7 was a mistake. Cause what good is a season of a show without the heart and soul of the show in it?

And I'm pretty sure Jen would have stayed if she was given the things she requested and deserved.

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1 hour ago, cappoe said:

Wow I never thought I'd see the day where Adam says that Emma was the heart and soul of the show. I guess that's as close to any admiting that doing S7 was a mistake. Cause what good is a season of a show without the heart and soul of the show in it?

Link? I need to see this with my own eyes, LOL.

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1 hour ago, cappoe said:

Cause what good is a season of a show without the heart and soul of the show in it?

It's heartless and soulless. (That explains a lot.)

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Here's a link to the TVLine article where Adam mentions Emma as the heart and soul of the show. This article is much more balanced and actually makes the finale sound somewhat appealing. I should have known that EW always tends to skew their coverage towards Regina.

ETA: OMG - I see that EW just published yet another Lana/Regina focused article (here's a link to it on Tumblr since don't like to give her clicks)! I don't know what Natalie Abrams will write about after this show is over since Lana has nothing else lined up...

Edited by Kktjones
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2 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

Here's a link to the TVLine article where Adam mentions Emma as the heart and soul of the show. This article is much more balanced and actually makes the finale sound somewhat appealing. I should have known that EW always tends to skew their coverage towards Regina.

I'm just laughing at the plaque from the British Columbia cafe. Regina would be part of the "some by leaving" group.

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This is mere PR speak and lip-service from A&E. They may say that Emma is the heart and soul, but she wasn't. They wrote as though Regina was its heart and soul. Regina slowly took over as unofficial lead starting from around 3B. By Season 5B, it was even more overt. They stopped caring about Emma in Season 6. They're literally crowning Regina as Empress of the Multiverse for the series finale. I don't buy their BS with anything positive they might say about Emma.

The writing for this show is a metaphor on how you can slowly slide down a dark path, and one day you wake up and realize how far you've strayed from the straight and narrow and how you've been prioritizing the wrong things all along. 

Edited by Rumsy4
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1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

They may say that Emma is the heart and soul

I like to think they're only now realising this since season 7 was so bad. 

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1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

This is mere PR speak and lip-service from A&E. They may say that Emma is the heart and soul, but she wasn't. They wrote as though Regina was its heart and soul. Regina slowly took over as unofficial lead starting from around 3B. By Season 5B, it was even more overt. They stopped caring about Emma in Season 6. They're literally crowning Regina as Empress of the Multiverse for the series finale. I don't buy their BS with anything positive they might say about Emma.

The writing for this show is a metaphor on how you can slowly slide down a dark path, and one day you wake up and realize how far you've strayed from the straight and narrow and how you've been prioritizing the wrong things all along. 

Yes, some definite PR speak and I think a minor attempt ate rebuilding burnt bridges.

The main difference is that A&E perspective on their self interest has changed.

In S6, JMo was an ungrateful actress who bailed on them and put the future longevity of the show in jeopardy and they were pissy about it and punishing her, her character, and her fans for it.

Now A&E are out of work and JMo has built up some directing acclaim/credibility and upgraded her representation.  JMo is likely the person who has the most connections to get A&E work from the former and current cast members.  It doesn't hurt them to say something nice about her.  It probably doesn't help that much either because they were really that awful in S6.

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Why do Killian and Nook have to be merged? Didn’t he and Emma do enough for him already?

Taking pity on the man, saving his life, and giving him his second chance to find his daughter is one thing. But Killian never signed up to have his life force tethered to his doppelgänger.

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55 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Yes, some definite PR speak and I think a minor attempt ate rebuilding burnt bridges.

The main difference is that A&E perspective on their self interest has changed.

In S6, JMo was an ungrateful actress who bailed on them and put the future longevity of the show in jeopardy and they were pissy about it and punishing her, her character, and her fans for it.

Now A&E are out of work and JMo has built up some directing acclaim/credibility and upgraded her representation.  JMo is likely the person who has the most connections to get A&E work from the former and current cast members.  It doesn't hurt them to say something nice about her.  It probably doesn't help that much either because they were really that awful in S6.

This is absolutely the reason. JMo has been very diplomatic and positive in the way she refers to the show and A&E ever since she announced her decision to not renew her contract for the show. And A&E have been throwing a fit in interviews and storylines. When they announced the end of the series, Adam just said "It was fun" in response to JMo's tweet. Now they're putting bandaid over the huge gaping crack on the wall. And lol at the last part.

If they had really wanted JMo to stay on for Season 7, they should have treated her (and her character) better. And  offered her a more attractive deal to continue with the show. You can't keep treating people as though they're not important, and then act surprised when they leave. 

46 minutes ago, rogvortex58 said:

Why do Killian and Nook have to be merged? 

Who says they're merging? They're just connected until Rumple sacrifices himself.

Edited by Rumsy4
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3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Who says they're merging? They're just connected until Rumple sacrifices himself.

But will the connecting be undone afterwards? The realm's merging certainly isn't.

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8 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

But will the connecting be undone afterwards? The realm's merging certainly isn't.

Hard to know. But it's unlikely they'd leave them all connected.

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Variety interview.

They use a magic bean to get to Storybrooke from Seattle?! Dang! 

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The producers also confirmed that traditional villain Rumplestiltskin (Robert Carlyle) will finally get his chance at redemption, perhaps proving that everyone deserves a happy ending after all. 

And what about Wish Rumple? Doesn’t he deserve a Happy Ending too? Would that have been the focus of Season 10, if the Show hadn’t been cancelled?

Edited by Rumsy4

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So, if they didn't originally plan for Alice to be in more than five episodes, it makes you wonder whether they originally planned Gothel to be the Big Bad (pre-finale) or for Alice to play that big a role. I'm trying to remember, had she been in five episodes before we learned for certain that she was WHook's and Gothel's daughter?

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4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, if they didn't originally plan for Alice to be in more than five episodes, it makes you wonder whether they originally planned Gothel to be the Big Bad (pre-finale) or for Alice to play that big a role. I'm trying to remember, had she been in five episodes before we learned for certain that she was WHook's and Gothel's daughter?

I don't think there was much of a plan, they probably saw that they didn't have enough material to last a whole season, so they brought in new villains as replacements.

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5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, if they didn't originally plan for Alice to be in more than five episodes, it makes you wonder whether they originally planned Gothel to be the Big Bad (pre-finale) or for Alice to play that big a role. I'm trying to remember, had she been in five episodes before we learned for certain that she was WHook's and Gothel's daughter?

I don't get this season's casting arrangements at all. Victoria was a main character, but she got killed off halfway. Tiana is a regular, but Drizella and Alice had more way scenes than her. (Yet they were only guest stars.)

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One last chance to get pissed off at A&E's hot seat interviews.

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Regina was revealed in season 3 to be the strongest purveyor of light magic. Is there any chance that this will come into play before the series end?
ADAM HOROWITZ: Could be. Maybe. What are my choices again?
EDWARD KITSIS: Who knows?

We're starting things out with a bang. Let's see--where was it revealed that the unrepentant mass murdering rapist was the strongest purveyor of light magic? 

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Since Wish Hook is real, will Regina finally be punished for killing the Charmings?
HOROWITZ: It is definitely addressed.
KITSIS: I would say she’s confronted with that past.

LMAO. 

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Will we see Killian and Emma interacting with their child? 
KITSIS: Yes.

For how many microseconds?

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Is it the real Robin Hood we’re seeing in the finale? 
KITSIS: I sure hope so.
HOROWITZ: Can’t say, maybe, who knows, yes, no.

Will Robin Hood meet his daughter? 
KITSIS: Nope.

Glad to see the writers have their priorities straight.

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If everyone’s gone back in time does that mean Belle is alive?
HOROWITZ: No.

Dead is dead (in this specific instance).

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Were there any other endings considered for the finale? 
KITSIS: We knew enough in advance to plan.
HOROWITZ: There weren’t three other different versions of an ending. This is what we built toward and what we’re really happy to present to the audience.

I can't stop laughing.

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Ashley: "No, I'm Cinderella!"
Jacinda: "No, I'M Cinderella!"

Emma: "Killian?"
Hook: "Yes?"
WHook: "Yes?"

Robyn: "I'm you from the future!"
Robyn: "Mommy, she's scaring me."

Alice: "No, sorry. I don't know a Will Scarlet."

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@Camera One How did you get one of your A&E imitations published in the EW hot seat?  Come on  Fess up.

In all seriousness.  That is way more bizarre than normal.

Its like they've been obsessing with fan response to their magic eight ball and this story writes itself and we have no control over it answers and decided to say F#@K it we're cancelled., lets parody our own interview style.

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Could be. Maybe. What are my choices again?

Who knows?

I sure hope so.

Can’t say, maybe, who knows, yes, no.

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The Hot Seats were never the greatest promotion (other than giving fans a laugh and/or fits), but this is such a pointless interview. Why even do it if you aren't actually going to give some sort of teases for the finale? 

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15 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

where was it revealed that the unrepentant mass murdering rapist was the strongest purveyor of light magic? 

Seriously. As much of a BS event that was, it was only shown/said that Regina was capable of light magic, never that she was "the strongest purveyor".

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1 hour ago, Inquirer said:

 it was only shown/said that Regina was capable of light magic

Which she never wielded in the show again. 

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5 hours ago, Inquirer said:

As much of a BS event that was, it was only shown/said that Regina was capable of light magic, never that she was "the strongest purveyor".

But Glinda told the Charmings that only the strongest light magic could defeat Zelena, and then Regina defeated Zelena with light magic, so ...

Which was ironic given that Regina couldn't defeat her with dark magic and was weaker. And Emma, who supposedly had strong light magic as the Savior also was defeated by Zelena when they clashed.

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1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Which was ironic given that Regina couldn't defeat her with dark magic and was weaker. And Emma, who supposedly had strong light magic as the Savior also was defeated by Zelena when they clashed.

But wasn't Emma the only one who actually hurt her (before Rumple killed her) when she burned her with her light magic when she was about to kill Henry? I don't remember her actually being hurt by Regina

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21 minutes ago, superloislane said:

But wasn't Emma the only one who actually hurt her (before Rumple killed her) when she burned her with her light magic when she was about to kill Henry? I don't remember her actually being hurt by Regina

I don't think Regina managed to hurt her. But Emma got flattened during the fight on Main Street. I don't remember who did what when Zelena was using Henry as a hostage.

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4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't think Regina managed to hurt her. But Emma got flattened during the fight on Main Street. I don't remember who did what when Zelena was using Henry as a hostage.

I don't think Emma even used magic against Zelena during the Main Street fight though. But she definitely hurt her when Henry was hostage.

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I can't wait for Wish Henry to repent of his evil ways and bow down to worship Regina as Queen Mother of the Multiverse. 

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1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

I can't wait for Wish Henry to repent of his evil ways and bow down to worship Regina as Queen Mother of the Multiverse. 

"See, even Wish Henry forgives Regina for killing his grandparents! So you pesky audience can just shut up!"

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I don’t think he forgives her. I think he merges with real Henry and feels the same love for Regina that he does. Kinda like how Emma described having both her own memories and Princess Emma’s memories.

Total cop out. But I’m used to it with this show.

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6 minutes ago, rogvortex58 said:

I don’t think he forgives her. I think he merges with real Henry and feels the same love for Regina that he does. Kinda like how Emma described having both her own memories and Princess Emma’s memories.

Total cop out. But I’m used to it with this show.

Groan. Worse than I imagined.

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2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Groan. Worse than I imagined.

Adam and Eddy would choose the laziest option.

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If Emma actually has Princess Emma's memories, shouldn't she be in agony over the fate of Wish!Henry, who she remembers raising and loving? Not to mention Wish Snowing. Once she met Wish Hook again in 7.02 and realized that the Wish people were real, she should have been devastated on both counts. 

Honestly, whatever the show says, it really doesn't make emotional sense for the various fake memories that these characters have to have anything like the emotional resonance of their real memories. At the very least, even if they have technical knowledge of a past, it can't possibly be equivalent to lived experience. Or else, as I said, Emma is kind of terrible for not trying to get back to/save Wish Henry. Even if she only has muted memories, it would be pretty awful. 

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I'm having a major dilemma about watching the series finale live next week. I REALLY want to see Emma, OG Hook, their baby and Snowing. Those characters are the reason I watched 6 seasons of the show and I'd love to say a proper goodbye. But that's also why I don't want to watch. I REALLY don't want to see Emma and Snow kissing Regina's ass. Is there any chance the two of them get out of the finale unscathed? If not, I think I'm going to have to rely on Tumblr gifs and possibly You Tube clips of my faves. Seems a shame to miss the parts I want, but I just can't stomach the Regina-worship I suspect will be going on. 

On another note, anyone find it strange that they didn't include one frame of Emma from next week's show in the promo? They keep including the pic of her with the cupcake from the pilot, but using actual show footage for all the other returning guests. They may be trying to keep the baby a secret, but I can't imagine she's holding the baby the entire time she's on screen. I guess maybe they don't want to spoil the big coronation scene. I would think she is the biggest draw to get people watching next week, but what do I know.

Edited by Kktjones
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2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

If Emma actually has Princess Emma's memories, shouldn't she be in agony over the fate of Wish!Henry, who she remembers raising and loving? Not to mention Wish Snowing. Once she met Wish Hook again in 7.02 and realized that the Wish people were real, she should have been devastated on both counts. 

This is one of the many reasons why I hate Season 6. It does make Emma seem callous for abandoning Wish Henry. Even when she did not realize that he was "real", I have a hard time believing that Emma would have left him behind.  

2 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

On another note, anyone find it strange that they didn't include one frame of Emma from next week's show in the promo? 

Probably because she's literally just in one scene, and to use that in the promo would be to waste it.

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1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Even when she did not realize that he was "real", I have a hard time believing that Emma would have left him behind.  

Especially after she risked taking Marian back to the future with her, not knowing who she was. In the very next episode, Emma was all for Regina taking Wish Robin back with her. K.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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The sadder thing about Emma and Wish!Henry is that Emma knows how it feels to grow up unwanted and unloved with no parents; it defines a lot of her character. She has essentially abandoned Wish!Henry to the same fate (maybe even worse- Wish!Henry has experiences with a loving family before it was snatched away from him on top of being thrown into the role of king as a teen). If the writers weren't too busy trying to absolve Regina of the deaths of Wish!Snowing by claiming that they weren't real (and only Wish!Snowing aren't real), Emma would probably react as her character would and get Wish!Henry, real or not.

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1 minute ago, Domenicholas said:

The sadder thing about Emma and Wish!Henry is that Emma knows how it feels to grow up unwanted and unloved with no parents; it defines a lot of her character. She has essentially abandoned Wish!Henry to the same fate (maybe even worse- Wish!Henry has experiences with a loving family before it was snatched away from him on top of being thrown into the role of king as a teen). If the writers weren't too busy trying to absolve Regina of the deaths of Wish!Snowing by claiming that they weren't real (and only Wish!Snowing aren't real), Emma would probably react as her character would and get Wish!Henry, real or not.

It just makes you think about how interesting the Wish Realm could've been and of what moral dilemmas it could have created. It had so much potential.

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3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It just makes you think about how interesting the Wish Realm could've been and of what moral dilemmas it could have created. It had so much potential.

The very instant I realised they were trying to sell us an Emma raised by resourceful ex-bandit Snow and, a shepherd that stepped up to be a Prince that fought every one of those steps to be with the woman he loved (like taking on a dragon single handed), would grow up a sniveling imbecile, I  NEVER wanted to see/hear about Farce!Realm ever again. The vomit inducing image of Emma groveling at Regina's feet was THE most offensive they put on the screen.

And then A&E get all bitter about JMo leaving??!!!

They can take Farce!Realm and, if they are coronating the worthless bitch,  shove it and the crown up Regina's rear end where it belongs.

 

Yes...still bitter....!

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