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Approach The Bench: Law & Order General Discussion Thread

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3 hours ago, db2202000 said:

Interesting point, what that reminds me of is Amends, where Briscoe eventually forgives his cop friend who acquiesced to his superiors and concealed evidence to let the killer go free for almost 20 years in exchange for a promotion. Initially as I recall, yes, Briscoe was angry when he deduced this is what had happened, so he pressed the cop to come clean, and when he did he forgave him. 

I thought of the similarities as well, but the situation was different :

Tommy Branagan, Briscoe’s friend from Amends, didn’t plant evidence on anyone or frame someone for a crime they didn’t commit, he just withheld evidence, he eventually came clean and the killer was put away. Also, Branagan was very remorseful for his actions. What Daniels from Vendetta did was way worse, he framed someone for a murder they didn’t commit because he had fucked up the case against the guy for the murder he did commit, as a result protecting the real murderer and preventing the victim from ever getting justice, and he didn’t have one ounce of remorse for it and seemed proud of what he did. Daniels was the worst kind of cop, he deserved to go to prison for his actions, and I was disgusted that Green was so nice to him, he didn’t deserve any sympathy. 

The bottom line is - With Branagan, what he did was bad, but he was able to rectify the situation somewhat by coming clean and getting the murderer put away, and he was genuinely remorseful. With Daniels, there was no correcting what he had done, he had tampered with evidence, framed someone for a crime they didn’t commit, destroying any chance of catching the real murderer and getting justice for the victim, and he still had no remorse for it, he thought he was above the law and could play god. Briscoe would’ve been disgusted with Daniels for sure, I wish Briscoe had interacted with Daniels, but Green didn’t even seem that bothered by what he had done, which I didn’t like, Daniels deserved nothing but comtempt and scorn, he is the worst kind of cop. I thought Green was way too nice with him.

Edited by Xeliou66
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Vendetta being one of Briscoe's last episodes, Orbach already being sick, I am wondering if they wrote the lack of interaction that way deliberately to reduce his screen time. Daniels was Green's friend as well, and we know Green has done (and will do) some ethically questionable things himself over the course of the show. So yes Green was likely not hard enough on him, but probably a combination of the personal relationship and understanding the instinct as a cop (if not condoning it). I'm trying to remember Amends, I believe the case in Amends was re-opened independent of the detective, Brannigan just happened to get a chance to rectify things. He could have taken the secret to his grave and let the killer go free forever without that intervention. He still denied justice for almost 20 years, 20 years of pain for the victim's family, that can't be ignored. What I think is the stronger mitigating factor is that it was the corruption of his superiors that sparked the subterfuge. He may have even felt fear for his safety from them and/or the Sarno family had he decided to continue to pursue the original case despite their objections (in addition to torpedoing his career). So of course the situations are not identical, but it's the closest parallel I could think of on the show with Briscoe involved.

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I wonder if the reason we only saw Green talk to Daniels was because of Orbach’s illness and as a result they decreased Briscoe’s screen time. I would’ve liked to have seen both Briscoe and Green talk to him, because there is no way Briscoe would’ve been so nice to the piece of shit. 

Like I said, the situation with Branagan was different, because Branagan didn’t frame someone for a crime they didn’t commit, he just sat on evidence that could’ve put a killer away for a long time. What he did was awful, but he was able to correct the situation to a degree, and he was sincere in his remorse. What Daniels did was far worse, he framed an innocent man for a murder, preventing the real killer from ever being caught, and he didn’t feel one ounce of remorse for his actions. I was pissed at how easy Green went on him, and I couldn’t believe that no one ever pointed out to him that by framing Grimes for the murder, the girl’s real killer would never be caught.

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2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

he framed an innocent man for a murder

Well, he was innocent of that murder, but he had skated on a similar murder, so I don't see him as an "innocent man," which is me splitting hairs, except for it possibly making Daniels not any worse than Branagan.

But you bring up an important point, @Xeliou66, about the real murderer out there free, likely still murdering. Was that ever brought up in the episode? I skimmed through the script of the closed captioning, but didn't see anything. That seems like a pretty big plot hole for L&O.

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2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Well, he was innocent of that murder, but he had skated on a similar murder, so I don't see him as an "innocent man," which is me splitting hairs, except for it possibly making Daniels not any worse than Branagan.

But you bring up an important point, @Xeliou66, about the real murderer out there free, likely still murdering. Was that ever brought up in the episode? I skimmed through the script of the closed captioning, but didn't see anything. That seems like a pretty big plot hole for L&O.

Grimes was a murderer, but he was innocent of the murder that Daniels framed her for. And the main point is that because Daniels framed Grimes for the murder, the real murderer got away and would never be caught, leaving him to possibly kill again and denying the victim justice. What Daniels did is far worse than what Branagan did, Daniels sent someone to prison for a crime he knew they didn’t commit and let the real killer get away, after fucking up the case against Grimes for the murder he did commit by beating a confession out of him, Branagan buried evidence that would’ve put a killer away, but he was eventually able to sort of rectify the situation, and he was genuinely remorseful. What Branagan did was awful, and he didn’t deserve Briscoe’s forgiveness IMO, but Daniels was far worse and Green didn’t even seem upset by what he had done. I thought it was extremely out of character for Green to not be angry at Daniels, and I thought it was absurd how no one pointed out that Daniels’ actions had let the real killer escape. It just left me with a bad taste in my mouth, and I was very disappointed with Green.

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The end of that episode always chokes me up. When Lennie goes to see Branagan at the end and he says "forgive me Lennie?" "All day long Tommy. All day long."

It always reminds me of the end of "Corruption" where they go to arrest the crooked cop. Even though he tried to set up Lennie, Lennie still had compassion for him and reminds him to not talk till he gets with his union rep. Right before he eats his gun he yells "you wanna talk about the ponies Lennie?"

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16 minutes ago, cfinboston said:

The end of that episode always chokes me up. When Lennie goes to see Branagan at the end and he says "forgive me Lennie?" "All day long Tommy. All day long."

It always reminds me of the end of "Corruption" where they go to arrest the crooked cop. Even though he tried to set up Lennie, Lennie still had compassion for him and reminds him to not talk till he gets with his union rep. Right before he eats his gun he yells "you wanna talk about the ponies Lennie?"

That's why Lennie is the best.

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3 hours ago, Katy M said:

That's why Lennie is the best.

That's why, even if he wasn't an original cast member and other teams came later and still did well, Lennie will always be associated as the face/heart of this show. Jerry Orbach played the cynical, world-weary New York cop to perfection.

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I love Briscoe, my favorite detective, a lot of depth to his character. That’s why I would’ve liked to have seen Briscoe interact with Daniels, I don’t think he would’ve had near as much sympathy as Green did. I thought it was OOC how much sympathy Green showed Daniels, he never showed sympathy for dirty cops in any other episodes, and I thought it was absurd that no one pointed out to Daniels that by framing Grimes he prevented the real murderer from being caught.

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On 9/24/2018 at 5:56 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I love Briscoe, my favorite detective, a lot of depth to his character. That’s why I would’ve liked to have seen Briscoe interact with Daniels, I don’t think he would’ve had near as much sympathy as Green did. I thought it was OOC how much sympathy Green showed Daniels, he never showed sympathy for dirty cops in any other episodes, and I thought it was absurd that no one pointed out to Daniels that by framing Grimes he prevented the real murderer from being caught.

Wasn't it that Green and Daniels had previously worked together? Green mentions them having been in the same precinct and Daniels says something about not having heard from Green for a ling time. Having Briscoe there may have made it seem more like an interrogation,   rather than just a talk. Daniels IMO comes off as sympathetic and has the complexity the fans appreciate. It's not all black and white. Green says beforehand how much "by the book" Daniels had been, so it shows how deeply affected he was that his mistake cost justice for Julie Sayer.  

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Every now and then an EP shows up and it really bothers me. S10 E1 Gunshow  is one of these. This is the ep where McCoy goes after the gun manufacturer Rolph for making a weapon that is too easily converted into an automatic machine pistol. Trial goes all the way to the end and McCoy gets his conviction, only to have the judge issue an directed verdict of not guilty. My issue is that it makes no sense to have a trial and a verdict only to overrule it. If that was going to happen it would have happened after their case's in chief were done, not after a verdict. But that wouldn't make for as good TV I guess. Just imagine if you were a juror, you'd want to know why the judge wasted your time

This EP just sticks in my craw because of this procedure.

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6 hours ago, KHenry14 said:

Every now and then an EP shows up and it really bothers me. S10 E1 Gunshow  is one of these. This is the ep where McCoy goes after the gun manufacturer Rolph for making a weapon that is too easily converted into an automatic machine pistol. Trial goes all the way to the end and McCoy gets his conviction, only to have the judge issue an directed verdict of not guilty. My issue is that it makes no sense to have a trial and a verdict only to overrule it. If that was going to happen it would have happened after their case's in chief were done, not after a verdict. But that wouldn't make for as good TV I guess. Just imagine if you were a juror, you'd want to know why the judge wasted your time

This EP just sticks in my craw because of this procedure.

 

But I thought that's how it really happens, right? A judge can set aside a guilty verdict (and only a guilty verdict) after it's reached. The reason it's not always done before the verdict is because the decision to overrule a verdict can be appealed (and a judge might be held accountable in re-election), but, a 'not guilty' verdict can't be appealed since jeopardy has attached. 

Although you're right that the defense could have moved for a directed verdict before the jury deliberated if they could argue that the people failed to make their prima fascia case. 

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6 hours ago, cfinboston said:

Wasn't it that Green and Daniels had previously worked together? Green mentions them having been in the same precinct and Daniels says something about not having heard from Green for a ling time. Having Briscoe there may have made it seem more like an interrogation,   rather than just a talk. Daniels IMO comes off as sympathetic and has the complexity the fans appreciate. It's not all black and white. Green says beforehand how much "by the book" Daniels had been, so it shows how deeply affected he was that his mistake cost justice for Julie Sayer.  

Yeah Green and Daniels did work together, and yeah Briscoe not being there did make Green and Daniels interaction seem more like a friendly conversation than an interrogation, but it still would’ve been interesting to see Briscoe question Daniels. Daniels wasn’t at all sympathetic though, first he beat a confession out of Grimes, ruining the case against him for the murder he did commit, then he framed him for a murder he didn’t commit, as a result the real killer got away and justice would never be served, and Daniels didn’t feel any remorse for this. I don’t see how anyone could find Daniels sympathetic except for someone that has no problem with police misconduct. 

As for Gunshow and the overturned verdict, I think Wright was right in his ruling to overturn the verdict, but I think he could’ve granted a defense motion to dismiss the case after the prosecution rested had they moved for that. McCoy never should’ve had the gun manufacturers charged, it was a matter for civil courts and the legislature to sort out.

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Heads up to anyone that watches the Mothership on WE. Looks like WE is changing the schedule AGAIN. At least according to the Zap2It listings. It will air tonight (Sunday night!) from 10:00 p.m. until 1:00 a.m. on Monday. It then airs from noon Monday until 3:00 a.m. Tuesday morning. CSI: Miami is taking its former Tuesday slot.

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9 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Heads up to anyone that watches the Mothership on WE. Looks like WE is changing the schedule AGAIN. At least according to the Zap2It listings. It will air tonight (Sunday night!) from 10:00 p.m. until 1:00 a.m. on Monday. It then airs from noon Monday until 3:00 a.m. Tuesday morning. CSI: Miami is taking its former Tuesday slot.

Thanks! Now I'll be prepared for a DVR alert if I'm still watching football at the point. I never watch the WE mothership eps live as I find the promos annoying enough FFing through them, can't imagine actually sitting through them...

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I’m watching season 18 on WE today, and I have to say I don’t like the episode Bogeyman very much, I think the episode would’ve been much better if the main villains had been the Systemotics cult, it seemed like the writers were afraid to go after a cult based on Scientology, which is strange considering they’ve gone after groups like that as well as prominent figures many times. I also disliked how Cutter pretended to be in Systemotics at the end to manipulate the killer into pleading guilty, that was underhanded and unethical IMO. I also wished they had given a little bit more time to Bernard coming over to Homicide from IAB, instead we just got a couple of comments, I wish we had known how long he had been there with this being his first episode as a regular.

The episode had an interesting premise but it could’ve been executed a lot better IMO.

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Saw "Doped" the other day.  Words cannot express how much I hate the guy that basically caused the accident.  He spiked her drink and nasal spray ON PURPOSE just because she wanted to give the lawsuit money to charity.  "Oh but I just thought she'd get into a little fender bender!"  FUCK YOU.  An intoxicated driver on the road in NEW YORK FUCKING CITY?!  Somebody was going to get hurt.

20 to life was too good for the bastard.  He should have gotten the death penalty.

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On 10/23/2018 at 12:22 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Saw "Doped" the other day.  Words cannot express how much I hate the guy that basically caused the accident.  He spiked her drink and nasal spray ON PURPOSE just because she wanted to give the lawsuit money to charity.  "Oh but I just thought she'd get into a little fender bender!"  FUCK YOU.  An intoxicated driver on the road in NEW YORK FUCKING CITY?!  Somebody was going to get hurt.

20 to life was too good for the bastard.  He should have gotten the death penalty.

Agreed, he should’ve gotten longer, I hated him as well. However, since he tried to stop the crash by calling the victim and then calling 911, plus the fact that he could argue he never intended to kill anyone and didn’t know the kids would be in the car, that would obviously affect the sentence he got, so I can see why they agreed to a plea deal of 20 years. 

It’s a good episode, I liked the first half with Lupo and Bernard trying to figure out what happened a lot, it was interesting as once the culprit was arrested there wasn’t a whole lot more to the case, but that isn’t a bad thing, the second half was still good, a lot of the best L&O episodes don’t have constant twists. That episode has probably the bloodiest scene in L&O history when the perp stabs himself in the neck in the bathroom. I also remember ME Rodgers comes by the police station in that one, one of the few times she does that in the franchise.

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17 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Agreed, he should’ve gotten longer, I hated him as well. However, since he tried to stop the crash by calling the victim and then calling 911, plus the fact that he could argue he never intended to kill anyone and didn’t know the kids would be in the car, that would obviously affect the sentence he got, so I can see why they agreed to a plea deal of 20 years. 

 

Yeah, I don't care about any of that. Not intending anyone to die doesn't take away the fact that it was a risk factor. And it sure as hell doesn't take away the fact that he was willing to let everyone think she was drunk and take the blame for the ones that died. His suicide attempt wasn't from remorse, he was trying to take the coward's way out. 

Like I said before, I have no pity for eleventh-hour guilt. This guy was a greedy, stupid coward, and fact that he was sorry for it after the fact doesn't change it.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, I don't care about any of that. Not intending anyone to die doesn't take away the fact that it was a risk factor. And it sure as hell doesn't take away the fact that he was willing to let everyone think she was drunk and take the blame for the ones that died. His suicide attempt wasn't from remorse, he was trying to take the coward's way out. 

Like I said before, I have no pity for eleventh-hour guilt. This guy was a greedy, stupid coward, and fact that he was sorry for it after the fact doesn't change it.

I agree with you, I loathed the bastard and thought he deserved life in prison, I’m just pointing out some of the arguments his lawyer would’ve made to argue for a reduced sentenced, which is why they agreed to 20 years IMO, also they avoided the time and cost of a trial. I agree he deserved life though, he was a piece of shit.

Another scene I liked from Doped was McCoy standing up to the CEO of the drug company who had made a donation to McCoy in the past. 

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So I watched Red Ball today, and I noticed a pretty big hole in the episode : at the end when the kidnapper reveals where he’s holding the girl, he says he’s holding her in his mom’s basement : first of all, wouldn’t the police have already searched all of the property belonging to his family? Second of all, didn’t Green and Fontana interview his mom earlier in the episode and she lived in an apartment? And was his mom involved in the kidnapping? None of that was clear or made sense.

I still liked the episode, the tension between McCoy and Branch was interesting with both making good points, and I liked the reference to Cragen and SVU. 

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Season 17 on WE today, this was hands down the worst season of L&O, not only was there the terrible Detective Beauty Queen but the writing was just clunky and off in most of the episodes. 

For example, Talking Points was just on, really weak episode, it seemed like it was just trying to be as outrageous as possible for the sake of shock value without having any intelligent dialogue, it just threw in a bunch of controversial political statements and cartoonish characters without an ounce of nuance or interesting dialogue. The defense attorney throwing out slurs at the jury would result in an immediate mistrial and sanctions against the defense lawyer. And I didn’t like how sympathetic they seemed to the Ann Coulter expy, they seemed to let her spew her talking points without any pushback because of the way the case was the killer being against the right wing pundit so the DA’s had to make her look like less of an asshole. And McCoy saying at the end that he didn’t talk politics was bullshit, he had never shied away from giving his opinion on issues before, that was just the writers not wanting him to give his opinion. 

Usually L&O dealt with controversial subjects with nuance and didn’t try to be outrageous just for the sake of being outrageous, that wasn’t the case in a lot of season 17, it frequently tried to be as controversial as possible just for shock value, and the writing was clunky and weak, the twists didn’t work well usually, and the episodes just weren’t well written and didn’t seem to have the realism of earlier episodes. I did like the legal side with McCoy/Rubirosa/Branch and there were a few good episodes, but it was definitely L&O’s weakest season, I’m really glad it avoided cancellation and the show improved drastically starting in season 18.

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Watching Grief from season eight I love how Jamie keeps bringing up throughout the episode what a horrible thing the mother did. I think we're suppose to think the Mother wanted a grandchild since her daughter would likely never get better. But that's not really how the Mom comes off. She keeps talking about the baby and wanting a grandchild. Even when she talks about her daughter, son-in-law and that pregnancy she comes off more focus and interested in the pregnancy. Maybe if they added a few lines that it was her only link to her daughter or something? I hated how Jack kept defending what she did as a grief stricken parent or something. She paid a man to rape her unconscious daughter. Who the hell does that? She's just as despicable as the man she paid who actually did it. 

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I saw "Good Faith" yesterday, aka the one where the psycho religious dad kills the teacher he thinks had sex with his daughter and tries to blame it all on the fact that he was teaching evolution.  Except it was the guidance counselor who did it all along.  I know the daughter was technically molested and all -- and God knows the guidance counselor is the one to blame for crossing that line and trying to cover his ass after -- but man did I hate the daughter.  Yeah, she didn't know her dad would kill him, but still.  Her mewling to her dad in Jack's office about how she "just didn't want (the guidance counselor) to get in trouble" just made me go "SO YOU WANTED AN INNOCENT TEACHER TO GET IN TROUBLE INSTEAD?!"

Also, Melnick is still the worst.  I have no doubt she'd be defending those zealot bakers who won't make cakes for same sex couples because it offends their delicate "religious freedom."

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10 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I saw "Good Faith" yesterday, aka the one where the psycho religious dad kills the teacher he thinks had sex with his daughter and tries to blame it all on the fact that he was teaching evolution.  Except it was the guidance counselor who did it all along.  I know the daughter was technically molested and all -- and God knows the guidance counselor is the one to blame for crossing that line and trying to cover his ass after -- but man did I hate the daughter.  Yeah, she didn't know her dad would kill him, but still.  Her mewling to her dad in Jack's office about how she "just didn't want (the guidance counselor) to get in trouble" just made me go "SO YOU WANTED AN INNOCENT TEACHER TO GET IN TROUBLE INSTEAD?!"

Also, Melnick is still the worst.  I have no doubt she'd be defending those zealot bakers who won't make cakes for same sex couples because it offends their delicate "religious freedom."

Oh so did I. That response? Zero guilt over what her actions did? She got an innocent man killed! Where was her fucking remorse? I don't care that she didn't know that would happen. She had no problem naming him instead and letting him get in trouble? He could have gotten fired and had his entire life destroyed because of her lie.  Would she had said anything if that happened? Would she had spoken up if he had been arrested? If he had been convicted?

Yes Melnick is the worse. Too bad that cult didn't do a better job and killed her when they had the chance. I still don't know how she wasn't serving time after what she did in that episode.  

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5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I saw "Good Faith" yesterday, aka the one where the psycho religious dad kills the teacher he thinks had sex with his daughter and tries to blame it all on the fact that he was teaching evolution.  Except it was the guidance counselor who did it all along.  I know the daughter was technically molested and all -- and God knows the guidance counselor is the one to blame for crossing that line and trying to cover his ass after -- but man did I hate the daughter.  Yeah, she didn't know her dad would kill him, but still.  Her mewling to her dad in Jack's office about how she "just didn't want (the guidance counselor) to get in trouble" just made me go "SO YOU WANTED AN INNOCENT TEACHER TO GET IN TROUBLE INSTEAD?!"

Also, Melnick is still the worst.  I have no doubt she'd be defending those zealot bakers who won't make cakes for same sex couples because it offends their delicate "religious freedom."

I saw Good Faith as well, it’s actually one of the more interesting season 17 episodes IMO, I disliked the daughter as well with how she scapegoated the teacher, but I had some sympathy for her as I think her nutjob father really fucked her up with his rants about demons being everywhere and her mother burning in hell. And yeah I loathe the self righteous Melnick, she always took on some of the most repugnant clients and had a very self serving agenda, her defense of justifiable homicide because the victim was teaching the killer’s daughter evolution was beyond preposterous, the daughter can make up her own mind how the world was created, religious people always make a big deal about having free will, and yet the defense was acting Iike the victim was controlling the daughters brain, not to mention how absurd it is that god would punish someone for not believing in creationism when there are millions and millions of people who don’t have any religious beliefs at all that are doing just fine, as McCoy stated. The whole thing was ludicrous and crap like that is why I abandoned religion.

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So I watched Driven today, that episode pisses me off with how both defendants got the same sentence at the end. The guy who actually fired the shots was much more responsible than the mom IMO, yes the mom did escalate the situation but the shooter’s son and his friends started the whole altercation by stealing the basketball and I feel that they did have the right to get their ball back, and that fact was ignored. I didn’t think it was justice at all that both received the same sentence, they shooter should’ve gotten much more time than the mom IMO.

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1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

So I watched Driven today, that episode pisses me off with how both defendants got the same sentence at the end. The guy who actually fired the shots was much more responsible than the mom IMO, yes the mom did escalate the situation but the shooter’s son and his friends started the whole altercation by stealing the basketball and I feel that they did have the right to get their ball back, and that fact was ignored. I didn’t think it was justice at all that both received the same sentence, they shooter should’ve gotten much more time than the mom IMO.

I was actually thinking it was the other way around. The mom brought her kids there with weapons (baseball bats).  Her actions were premeditated.

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19 hours ago, Katy M said:

I was actually thinking it was the other way around. The mom brought her kids there with weapons (baseball bats).  Her actions were premeditated.

But the other kids started it by stealing the basketball. They had the right to get their ball back, although charging in with baseball bats did escalate the situation, they could’ve gone about it differently, but the son of the shooter and his friends started it, and then the dad fired the shots because he was pissed off about what was going on in the community. I don’t feel at all that both sides were equally responsible.

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1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

But the other kids started it by stealing the basketball. They had the right to get their ball back, although charging in with baseball bats did escalate the situation, they could’ve gone about it differently, but the son of the shooter and his friends started it, and then the dad fired the shots because he was pissed off about what was going on in the community. I don’t feel at all that both sides were equally responsible.

Stealing basketballs isn't a capital offense.  You can not go after someone with weapons due to petty larceny.  If they have a right to get their ball back, then they call the police.  And, I also don't feel that both sides were equally responsible. The mom was way more responsible because she is the one who gave her children weapons in order to solve a petty disagreement.

And, if your argument is that the son started in, then the son should have been charged also.

Also, if I remember correctly (I haven't seen this episode in a while), the jury found them not guilty of the murder of the kid the father was actually trying to shoot and only found them guilty of manslaughter of the innocent little girl. Which tells me that the jury saw the main object of the shooting as justifiable.  And, the mom is the one that sent that crazy kid out with a baseball bat.  That was someone else's kid, right?  His parents should sue her for wrongful death.

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2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Stealing basketballs isn't a capital offense.  You can not go after someone with weapons due to petty larceny.  If they have a right to get their ball back, then they call the police.  And, I also don't feel that both sides were equally responsible. The mom was way more responsible because she is the one who gave her children weapons in order to solve a petty disagreement.

And, if your argument is that the son started in, then the son should have been charged also.

Also, if I remember correctly (I haven't seen this episode in a while), the jury found them not guilty of the murder of the kid the father was actually trying to shoot and only found them guilty of manslaughter of the innocent little girl. Which tells me that the jury saw the main object of the shooting as justifiable.  And, the mom is the one that sent that crazy kid out with a baseball bat.  That was someone else's kid, right?  His parents should sue her for wrongful death.

Stealing something isn’t a petty disagreement, it’s a crime, and the shooter’s kid and his friends picked the fight by stealing the basketball. I’m not saying they had the right to go in with baseball bats but I am saying that they had the right to stand up for themselves and the person who fired the shots was much more responsible than the mom. 

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14 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Stealing something isn’t a petty disagreement, it’s a crime, and the shooter’s kid and his friends picked the fight by stealing the basketball. I’m not saying they had the right to go in with baseball bats but I am saying that they had the right to stand up for themselves and the person who fired the shots was much more responsible than the mom. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. Because the mother was the one who brought in weapons for vigilante justice, and the father was protecting himself with a weapon he already had at his home.

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Teenage Wasteland was on last night. It really is the best episode with Nora. While she still drives me crazy at some of her shock at them wanting to seek the death penalty against an eighteen year old. It did a better job of presenting both sides. They show her struggling with the decision but ends with her following the law. I like the scene with her in the room going through law books trying to find a precedent but couldn't and her talk with Abby. If they had done that with Nora in the other episodes it would have made her seasons on the show much better. I like the discussion around the table with the other DAs too what it looks like if they apply it or don't apply it. I don't remember who said it but I did like the remark about how when its a black kid there would be no hesitation or struggle but because its a white boy who looks like the kid next door they are all trying to find reasons not do.  Its exactly right.  

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