S08.E02: Device Free Day

[mbutterfly]

Good point about Chinese conservative values, especially when you are there to adopt a Chinese baby going through some governmental scrutiny. And also, Bill and Jen -- unlike many TLC families -- do not belong to an especially conservative religious order. So Jen can wear whatever she chooses. 

[Snow8585]

Actually I am a vegetarian, but being a vegetarian has nothing to do with how Bill Klein AND the TLC crew let the fish die, filmed it, and then made a joke out of it. I was appalled that Bill Klein found it amusing to say the fish "sleeps with the fishes".  Here is a guy who owns a pet/grooming store, personally owns dogs, adopted kids and certainly puts forth an image of a caring individual. And then he treats a fish so dismissively? I think that actually says a lot about a person. His behavior is hypocritical. There was one episode when he and his mother in law were at the Pet Expo and he was musing aloud about selling fish in their store. I am very glad she talked him out of that!

[mbutterfly]

I think a lot of people are dismissive of fish. 

[Snow8585]

I am not referring to a lot of people. My focus is addressing what was shown in the specific episode. 

[QuinnM]

 

I am not referring to a lot of people. My focus is addressing what was shown in the specific episode.

 

Looked like something that happens all the time everyday on piers, boats, on oceans, lakes.  That's just one of the things that go on.  It looked to be what we call a bullhead and those aren't good eating but people do eat them.  Throwing it back in the water probably insured something bigger ate it cause it was nice and fresh.  I didn't see them as dismissive.  They were fishing.  That's fishing.  Is the fish not living any different than the squid they were using as bait?  

[Bellalisa]

Do fish have feelings? Do fish feel pain? These are questions that keep me up and night.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I am not referring to a lot of people. My focus is addressing what was shown in the specific episode. 

 

Completely agree, it was abuse.  What did Bill think was going to happen when and if he caught a fish?  He said he didn't have the right tools so this outcome was pretty much in the forecast.  

 

Disgusting to do it and disgusting to air it.   

[Jellybeans]

My grandma took me fishing all the time. I see no difference between using live bait (ouch?) or throwing back a dead fish that becomes food to ocean critters. (not necessarily other fish) And what about the worms that we impale on hooks?

There is an abundance of rich marine life under the piers because there's lots of food. Which draws fishermen (and fish) to the piers and the cycle begins. I do not consider it abusive, I call it fishing.

[ZoloftBlob]

Here is a guy who owns a pet/grooming store, personally owns dogs, adopted kids and certainly puts forth an image of a caring individual. And then he treats a fish so dismissively? I think that actually says a lot about a person. His behavior is hypocritical. There was one episode when he and his mother in law were at the Pet Expo and he was musing aloud about selling fish in their store. I am very glad she talked him out of that!

 

I'm six of one half dozen of another on fishing and What Bill Did.

 

Fish aren't pets in any real sense. They aren't going to learn their names, and for anything other than "ich" your family vet is going to recommend a replacement fish versus actually keeping a sick fish alive. I have no objection to Bill not considering the fish

 

The entire point of the act of fishing is to hurt the fish.There's really no way around that unless you dangle the line with no bait and no hook and call that "fishing" (and no its not fishing, its sitting and playing with a line). There's no end game for the fish that doesn't result in the fish getting hurt. Imagine if you had a large metal hook lodged into your mouth and you can't get it out without ripping half your cheek off. Thats what the fish goes thru before it's lifting into the air and suffocated to death. I can understand and respect objecting to this - fishing, like hunting, while a necessary act historically, is also a harsh unpleasant business.

 

But I will also be honest and say I saw nothing unusually cruel in the fishing scene, nothing that isn't happening every day on piers and docks all across the world. If the objection is the very act of fishing, sure - as I said I can respect that, if the objection is to Bill fishing - I didn't see him doing anything more cruel than any other fisherman. As someone up above said - the squid used as bait probably didn't enjoy being chopped up and put on a hook either.

[Jellybeans]

Are we seriously discussing fish abuse? :-p

Speaking of fish...I loved seeing Zoey snack on her goldfish crackers while shooing the birds away. Or calling them back. I love the bonds everyone has formed with each other.

[Bellalisa]

Are we seriously discussing fish abuse? :-p

 

TWOP Howard would have hurled himself off the pier by now....

[BizBuzz]

TWOP Howard would have hurled himself off the pier by now....

 

Good thing this isn't TWOP, eh?

 

::giggle::

[ZoloftBlob]

I suppose the question is, how does one fish humanely? If you're using hooks and bait, you're hurting it, and potentially killing it, even if you throw it back. I respect if you're simply opposed to fishing - but there's no way for Bill to fish humanely unless he doesn't fish at all. It's all cruel.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I suppose the question is, how does one fish humanely? If you're using hooks and bait, you're hurting it, and potentially killing it, even if you throw it back. I respect if you're simply opposed to fishing - but there's no way for Bill to fish humanely unless he doesn't fish at all. It's all cruel.

 

It's called Catch and Release and this link details how.    

 

http://tpwd.texas.gov/regulations/outdoor-annual/fishing/freshwater-fishing/catch-release-tips 

[ZoloftBlob]

I understand that but as I said, he'd still be hurting the fish - there's no nice, non pain causing way to hook a fish and reel it in. If the objection is to causing harm to the fish, there's no way Bill can fish without hurting and possibly killing the fish he catches. Catch and release is a pretty standard thing... its still not being kind. Believe me, I totally respect the moral objection to killing animals, but particularly with fishing, there's really no inbetween - you're still basically torturing the animal without the pay off of eating it. If Bill is wrong, then all fishing has to be wrong. Like I said, I didn't see anything in this episode that doesn't happen everywhere there is fishing.

[Jellybeans]

I have removed myself from the fishing pier.

[PRgal]

Good point about Chinese conservative values, especially when you are there to adopt a Chinese baby going through some governmental scrutiny. And also, Bill and Jen -- unlike many TLC families -- do not belong to an especially conservative religious order. So Jen can wear whatever she chooses. 

 

I'm of Chinese descent and Chinese really aren't THAT conservative compared to many other cultures - at least not when it comes to believing that women need to be covered up.  They might be MORE conservative than many in western Europe or North America, but above-the-knee skirts are NOT an issue. Put it this way,  unless I was wearing hot pants or super-mini dress, no one would say anything.  China, especially in more urban areas, can be very stylish/fashionable - perhaps even MORE so than here.

Edited December 16, 2014 by PRgal

[QuinnM]

There is killing the fish quickly so that it doesn't suffer. Bill let that fish slowly suffocate over ten minutes. Very mean, in my opinion.

Man are we still talking about this? All smaller fish that you eat suffocate. It is not like cows were they actively kill them. Large sport animals might be shot but that is mostly so they don't injure people on the boat.

There was nothing unusual about the fishing trip. It is not something all people are comfortable with. If you arent then you should be a vegan. But if Bill or anyone else wants to fish I don't see it as a moral failure.

[eributterfly]

Do fish have feelings? Do fish feel pain? These are questions that keep me up and night.

Be nice...lol

[RedheadZombie]

Actually I am a vegetarian, but being a vegetarian has nothing to do with how Bill Klein AND the TLC crew let the fish die, filmed it, and then made a joke out of it. I was appalled that Bill Klein found it amusing to say the fish "sleeps with the fishes".  Here is a guy who owns a pet/grooming store, personally owns dogs, adopted kids and certainly puts forth an image of a caring individual. And then he treats a fish so dismissively? I think that actually says a lot about a person. His behavior is hypocritical. There was one episode when he and his mother in law were at the Pet Expo and he was musing aloud about selling fish in their store. I am very glad she talked him out of that!

 

I understand and agree with your view, but we will never win the argument.  Casual cruelty and neglect of animals is very acceptable in society, and when you voice concern - you will be mocked.

 

I would be more accepting of the whole situation if Bill didn't make a stupid joke about it.  I really like Bill, but not in that moment.

[Kohola3]

Zoey and the bugs was SO little girl!  I remember my niece doing the same thing. It's nice to see parents that don't yell and stomp at their kids when they don't instantly obey.  Not that I enjoy seeing kids deliberately throwing fits but children of that age have such short attention spans and a bug on the threshold can derail the forward progress of any 2 year old train!

 

Loved her shooing away the birds, too.  She certainly has strong opinions about nature!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I understand and agree with your view, but we will never win the argument.  Casual cruelty and neglect of animals is very acceptable in society, and when you voice concern - you will be mocked.

 

I would be more accepting of the whole situation if Bill didn't make a stupid joke about it.  I really like Bill, but not in that moment.

 

and so this topic now "swims with the fishes....."  LOL

Edited December 17, 2014 by Foghorn Leghorn

[gunderda]

There is killing the fish quickly so that it doesn't suffer. Bill let that fish slowly suffocate over ten minutes. Very mean, in my opinion.

Umm... I think all fish are killed by suffocating.  I've never seen any other way.  They are maybe kept in water for the entire fishing 'trip' but that is to keep them fresh before they are cleaned. (i think).    Have you seen those cleaning knives?? I don't think you want to use one of those on a live fish.

[walnutqueen]

TWOP Howard would have hurled himself off the pier by now....

 

I believe SHE would've hurled everyone else off the pier ...  ;-)

 

 

Good thing this isn't TWOP, eh?

 

::giggle::

 

Good one, BizBuzz!   Although I must confess it's a little reminiscent of a thread over on TWoP (Masterchef, I think) that was renamed "Steak: The Thread Derailer".  Now if we had "Fish: The Thread Derailer", I'd have myself a nice little Surf-n-Turf.

::giggle::

[Honey]

TWOP Howard would have hurled himself off the pier by now....

Lol.  TWOP Howard was a woman.

[Jellybeans]

I'd have myself a nice little Surf-n-Turf.

::giggle::

Hand me a double order of hush puppies to go.

[ZoloftBlob]

I'm not mocking you, I just don't understand what the objection is at this point. If whacking the fish in the head is ok, and stabbing it in the eye is ok, then I don't understand the humanity issue here. The fish is still being killed.

 

I somehow don't believe that if Bill had been filmed stabbing the fish in the eyes and showing Will how to best whack the fish in the head, that he wouldn't be catching complaints for killing the fish. There's no real way to *kill* something humanely - you're still hurting it when you stab it in the eye, and you're still killing it.

 

I thought the original objection was to killing the fish at all, not to not properly stabbing its eye.

[QuinnM]

Gosh this killing fish is just too fun to quit. Here is how most of the fish we eat gets dead. This is from the Australian organization RSPCA.

Most commercially-caught wild fish that are alive when landed die either from being left to suffocate in air, or by a combination of suffocation and evisceration (gutting) during processing. These methods take from minutes to hours to induce insensibility, can cause significant suffering and are not regarded as humane.

So they get suffocated. Or gutted alive. Australia is looking into other methods.

Full disclosure, I'm an omnivore. I don't care to be a vegan. I also don't think it's my place to force a vegan to eat meat or products that come from enslaving animals. But I eat meat/fish/dairy knowing full well how my food gets to those nice plastic trays at the supermarket.

I see nothing that Bill did that was cruel or unusual.

[Honey]

I believe had Bill known that the fish was going to slowly die, he would have asked for help.  It got past the point of no return without him really realizing it.  It sucks, but it happened, and it doesn't make him a bad person.  I would bet on the fact that he wouldn't let it happen again.

[4leafclover]

Not meaning to add to this fish tale but......the fish Bill caught was a salt-water catfish, or as we call them here on the Gulf coast, hardheads.  Most of the seasoned fishermen in these parts will leave them on the pier to die and rot (something I think is gross and unnecessary).  For the most part, they are considered a "trash" fish that are inedible and a pain in the neck to get off your hook because their barbs will sting the heck out of you and they can cause swelling and infection if the venom is penetrated thru the skin.  At least by throwing it back into the water, Bill added to nature's food chain and it wasn't left out to die on the pier for someone to step on and get hurt.  

[TEEVEE]

Bill had no clue what he was doing...aka Reality TV. That is what chaps me. It was a set up moment for filming. As we see the fish squirm and Bill trying to unhook the fish, we finally see a gloved hand appear. Maybe someone on the pier stepped in to help. But the cameras rolled a long time. You could tell Bill was uncomfortable with that.

[Chalby]

Limelight said: "...It's funny because I usually don't like bikinis but I liked the one Jen was wearing, it was more sporty than sexy..."

 

I agree, and wow, for a 40 year old, Jen looked awesome. You can tell she takes care of herself.

I would love to see some footage of Nanny Kate with Zoey and Will. I bet the kids don't give Kate any trouble as she has the speed and objectivity to be quick and consistently firm with them. I hope they keep her employed.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

The episode is airing again and I hear Will saying "moo" and "Oy Stoy" (Toy Story).  Bill comments about their vocabulary "from a comprehension perspective both kids are right on par with their ages."  God bless him for so wanting to believe this is true!  Zoey is catching up but Will?

 

Bill and Jen just aren't ready to admit "Houston, we have a problem."  

 

He was severely starved during the first few weeks of his body's organ development.  I have no doubt he has had every medical test possible and Bill and Jen know with his prognosis with a great degree of certainty.  Please stop telling us everything is on par when it isn't.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Foghorn Leghorn

[CousinAmy]

The episode is airing again and I hear Will saying "moo" and "Oy Stoy" (Toy Story).  Bill comments about their vocabulary "from a comprehension perspective both kids are right on par with their ages."  God bless him for so wanting to believe this is true!  Zoey is catching up but Will?

 

Bill and Jen just aren't ready to admit "Houston, we have a problem."  

 

He was severely starved during the first few weeks of his body's organ development.  I have no doubt he has had every medical test possible and Bill and Jen know with his prognosis with a great degree of certainty.  Please stop telling us everything is on par when it isn't.

It's not a race. Will may catch up this year, or next, or it may take him longer to become literate - reading and writing - and to become a clear speaker. As long as he is making progress every day, I don't see what the urgency is. 

 

And no one knows their child's "prognosis with a great degree of certainly." There are so many factors that contribute to a child's growth and advancement that it's impossible to make hard and fast rules about what a child's future will be. 

[Snow8585]

True, its not a race but comments like Bill makes equating Will's skills and abilities to other kids his age is just not accurate. Maybe one day but not right now.

[NausetGirl]

The episode is airing again and I hear Will saying "moo" and "Oy Stoy" (Toy Story).  Bill comments about their vocabulary "from a comprehension perspective both kids are right on par with their ages."  God bless him for so wanting to believe this is true!  Zoey is catching up but Will?

 

Bill and Jen just aren't ready to admit "Houston, we have a problem."  

 

He was severely starved during the first few weeks of his body's organ development.  I have no doubt he has had every medical test possible and Bill and Jen know with his prognosis with a great degree of certainty.  Please stop telling us everything is on par when it isn't.

 

Oh, I think Bill is basically correct when he states "from a comprehension perspective." Both Will and Zoey seem to understand what is being said TO them. However, while Will has definitely made good progress in his speech therapy, he still has some distance to go before he will be able to express himself clearly. Understanding what Will is trying to say right now is often difficult. My guess is that the more serious issue for Will is not his speech, but cognitive development. Which could definitely have been affected by his early malnutrition. Only time will tell if there will be permanent issues because of that.

Edited January 7, 2015 by NausetGirl

[xldb2004]

As I recall Bill said Will understands as well as kids his own age.  I have not seen anything that shows Will does not understand, just that he cannot articulate clearly. In one of Bills talking heads he said with regard to speech that Rome was not built in a day.  As was mentioned above it is safe to assume that Bill and Jen have a handle on both kid's issues and are addressing them.  I don't believe that because they are on a TLC show they have the obligation to tell the public everything about their children.  If Bill yes Will has developmental delays and these are what they are, other than satisfying some peoples curiosity what difference would it make?  Would it change the steps they are taking to treat their children?  Will it speed up the process of catching up?  At the end of the day this show is entertainment.  It is not a documentary.  It's goal is to make people feel good and by doing so make money.  IMO Jen and Bill are wise to limit filming to very controlled situations.  IMO they are protecting their children.