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Honeycocoa

Small Talk: The Prayer Closet

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I love having this place to go to read up on the duggars, but man oh man sometime you can have too much of a good thing, by the time I read each 2 new post on the 2 mill threads, I have read the same post multipal times..............when it gets to the point of haveing 1 thread for each kid plus one for each episode, then general stuff, I will need to upgrade for more memory.

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It's getting old fast having to open four or five threads for one comment on each. Perhaps I'll adjust.

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I do like having one thread for each episode. I think it's going to take some time for us to get used to putting more general thoughts in the General thread and episode-specific thoughts in each Episode thread. At least I think I tend to do that myself, and I've got to remember to not write a multi-paragraph paper on my daily thoughts and instead split them up under the more specific subject matter.  

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Also, we're not going to yell at you or give warning points for being in the wrong thread. Crossover happens and we're all going through a transition. We just want to organize the forum in a way that makes sense and is easy to navigate, not find ways to trip you up and go "aha!" We put a lot of thought into this - an awful lot of thought - and if you have suggestions, please tell us. 

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Would it be possible to have just 1 episode thread per week? Sometimes the show is 1 hour long episode, sometimes it's 2 30 minute episodes. Last week I had a hard time remembering which scene was in which 30 minute episode. So if last week's thread had been 3.02 Duggar Double Date/3.03 Another Courtship, it wouldn't have been a problem. It also might help the flow of conversation, giving us one less thread to check and respond to each week. 

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It is nice to know that I will not be sent to the prayer closet for posting in the wrong thread. I have done that a few times before.

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That wouldn't be disagreeable to me to have one thread per week even if there's 2 episodes. I just meant I like this format better than one single thread for all the episodes over the years. 

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Huge Duggar follower from the beginning.  Lukjed and read at TWOP.  I posted there until I got a temp ban for a typo an then decided I wasn't going to be bait for the infamous overbearing mods. 

I only posted on TWOP a few times. I got a warning that I used punctuation incorrectly,so I never posted again. 

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Another TWOP lurker here...got banned after two posts years ago for something trivial (don't even recall exactly what). I don't even watch this show, but the Duggars have always fascinated me in a train-wreck sort of way, so I've really been getting a kick out of being able to get some details on what is going on without having to actually watch it. Mostly I joined the migration over here for the American Idol and So You Think You can Dance forums, and have also been enjoying the blasts from the past which the pages on some of the real old-timey shows provide. And such a mass exodus from TWOP ensures some great quality snark, which I'm far better at appreciating than actually coming up with myself.

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It's not tacky when you are going to turn around in a month's time and volunteer for someone else's wedding.

I realize if you aren't part of this culture it sounds dreadful. But volunteerism is part if what makes this a community.

I'm really a little surprised that some of this communal volunteering is so foreign to so many. Our family has had a number of events professionally catered (including our bridal showers) but we made the connections for many of these occasions through church friends (who cater or know caterers). It hasn't been volunteers because the folks were fairly paid, but -- in many ways -- there was a communal service to one another. Similarly I've helped with more funeral dinners (all volunteer) than I can count. On a few occasions I've officiated a funeral and taken a dish for the meal. It is a lifestyle my husband and I have chosen, and many other people involved have advanced academic degrees and have traveled a number of the continents. It isn't necessarily a lifestyle of undereducated, culturally isolated folks. 

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Since when have the Duggars ever returned the favor of volunteerism??? Since when have they actually volunteered? Without TV cameras around to capture it? They don't even attend that church - so really are they part of that community? *That* is just one of the many things I find tacky about the situation. There is no chance in hell of the Duggars ever doing something like setting up chairs for someone else's wedding.

If the Duggars aren't praying on street corners, they aren't praying.

AMEN! We rarely see the Duggars volunteer for anything (excluding showing up late to help at the fish fry. I think I remember Boob saying that MEchelle did more talking there than helping.) Like you said, they don't even attend that church regularly. God forbid they had to get up at 6 am to help set up for a meeting at the church. I'm sure the Stink Bus would roll in at 11am with Boob laughing about Duggar time.

As we all have said, Jill has the time to volunteer. And if she has been, we would be reading about it in People.

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I grew up with a church that had an Altar Guild that could provide volunteers to weddings BUT you had to pay the Guild for their time. The Guild then used the money to fund the group but most was given back to the church. Do Baptist churched do the same thing? I imagine the Duggar still got lots of free volunteers but I would bet they had to pay for church help. 

I got married in a Baptist church and had a reception in the church hall. Both my daughters did the same. Each church has its own unique policies (and facilities, for that matter). In the Baptist churches I've been part of, you you pay some kind of fee to the church, and that covers janitorial services and may also include the use of tables and chairs, and maybe some other supplies like table cloths, chair covers, or punch bowls. In my experience there's a committee that oversees the facilities and the supplies, and they'll help you check them out, etc., but you you have to line up your own reception workers. It's up to you whether you want to use "volunteers" or paid workers to serve. I've got a lot of well-heeled friends, and most of the people I know who can afford a sit-down meal and/or a professional caterer for the reception go ahead and hold their reception at a ritzy venue instead of the church hall. Even at these fancy and expensive weddings, however, there are nearly always some "volunteers"--that is, family members or close friends--who are manning the gift table, punch table, etc.

 

My family is of pretty modest means, and my daughters each had a wedding budget of "only" $10,000. I thought their weddings were lovely and tasteful, but I have a feeling they'd be considered tacky by some of the people on these boards, based on some of the comments I've seen on this and other Duggar threads. They could have opted for a full meal and all paid workers, but only if the guest list was limited to family only plus a handful of the closest friends. Call them tacky, but both my daughters had a lot of friends and loved ones that they wanted to share their special day with. (And amazingly, those people apparently cared more about sharing the joy than about getting a fancy meal or free booze.) Both my girls opted to invite 200-300 friends/family members & to have an afternoon wedding with a reception (that everyone was invited to) immediately following in the church hall. People were served tons of good finger foods and plenty of cake. (One also had a cotton candy machine and a candy table that people are still talking about four years later.) We had about 20 people who helped in various ways with the receptions, but they were not what I would term "volunteers"--they were close friends and family members. And believe it or not, for the most part we didn't really have to solicit them; they came to us and offered to help. Many of them insisted on buying my daughters "real" gifts in addition to donating their time and talents, even though we told them mulitiple times that their service was their wedding gift. Now, you can be sure they all received hand-written thank you notes and nice thank-you gifts. (In a few cases, they received two gifts because they had done so much, both the bride and I really wanted to give them something special.) And you can also be sure that I'll be jumping at the opportunity to reciprocate the next time those people's families have a wedding or other significant life event. But mainly they did it because in my world, that's what you do when someone's a member of your family, church family, or circle of close friends.

 

Now, in these big Duggar weddings, I suspect that some of these volunteers are FANS who have no actual personal connection to the family. I can only attest to how it's done at the "fundy" church hall receptions I've been part of.

Edited by Portia
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I got married in a Baptist church and had a reception in the church hall. Both my daughters did the same. Each church has its own unique policies (and facilities, for that matter). In the Baptist churches I've been part of, you you pay some kind of fee to the church, and that covers janitorial services and may also include the use of tables and chairs, and maybe some other supplies like table cloths, chair covers, or punch bowls. In my experience there's a committee that oversees the facilities and the supplies, and they'll help you check them out, etc., but you you have to line up your own reception workers. It's up to you whether you want to use "volunteers" or paid workers to serve. I've got a lot of well-heeled friends, and most of the people I know who can afford a sit-down meal and/or a professional caterer for the reception go ahead and hold their reception at a ritzy venue instead of the church hall. Even at these fancy and expensive weddings, however, there are nearly always some "volunteers"--that is, family members or close friends--who are manning the gift table, punch table, etc.

 

My family is of pretty modest means, and my daughters each had a wedding budget of "only" $10,000. I thought their weddings were lovely and tasteful, but I have a feeling they'd be considered tacky by some of the people on these boards, based on some of the comments I've seen on this and other Duggar threads. They could have opted for a full meal and all paid workers, but only if the guest list was limited to family only plus a handful of the closest friends. Call them tacky, but both my daughters had a lot of friends and loved ones that they wanted to share their special day with. (And amazingly, those people apparently cared more about sharing the joy than about getting a fancy meal or free booze.) Both my girls opted to invite 200-300 friends/family members & to have an afternoon wedding with a reception (that everyone was invited to) immediately following in the church hall. People were served tons of good finger foods and plenty of cake. (One also had a cotton candy machine and a candy table that people are still talking about four years later.) We had about 20 people who helped in various ways with the receptions, but they were not what I would term "volunteers"--they were close friends and family members. And believe it or not, for the most part we didn't really have to solicit them; they came to us and offered to help. Many of them insisted on buying my daughters "real" gifts in addition to donating their time and talents, even though we told them mulitiple times that their service was their wedding gift. Now, you can be sure they all received hand-written thank you notes and nice thank-you gifts. (In a few cases, they received two gifts because they had done so much, both the bride and I really wanted to give them something special.) And you can also be sure that I'll be jumping at the opportunity to reciprocate the next time those people's families have a wedding or other significant life event. But mainly they did it because in my world, that's what you do when someone's a member of your family, church family, or circle of close friends.

 

Now, in these big Duggar weddings, I suspect that some of these volunteers are FANS who have no actual personal connection to the family. I can only attest to how it's done at the "fundy" church hall receptions I've been part of.

 

Portia, you and your girls did the volunteerism aspect right, IMO.  They sound like they were lovely weddings.  My problem with the Duggars is that it always seems so one-way.  Not to mention that they are millionaires and could easily have had all the guests they wanted - that were just guests.

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I'm betting that they actually do return the favors. I say this because they are too well liked within their own communities for it to be otherwise. But I'm also betting that a lot of the families actually do not want to the cameras invading their lives so this is why we never see it. How many of the posters here would ever have heard for Gothardism if it hadn't been for this show? What are the chances that Gothard would have had the investigation about the sexual assaults on girls reopened if it weren't mentioned in EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE that he's affiliated with the Duggar's and their show? They aren't even really affiliated with Doug Phillips and Vision Forum (who gave Michelle "Mother of the Year") but when his story broke about sex with the babysitter, the Duggars again were mentioned EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Within this world, the Duggars have been a very mixed blessing. I think a lot of people think they have done more harm to their movement than anything else. And they can't go and building everyone a nice big house like the Bates' got. So you are never going to hear about them helping out at so-and-so's wedding or traveling to see personX finishing a homeschool GED. But it is obviously happening because people are coming and showing up for their kids. It's certainly not to be on camera, because a lot of these people shun the cameras.

And I probably had about 50 people volunteer at my wedding which wasn't as large as Jill's, but wasn't small, either (my guest list was 450.) We didn't pay anyone, and there were only nominal fees given to people like the ministers, who had spent HOURS with us doing counseling. It's just the way this culture works. I don't know how to explain it any better than that, other than to say that yes, I understand that many people posting here think it's tacky and cheap, but most of the people there were very touched to be a part of it because they felt they had watched Jill grow up. Relationships within this world are different -- you don't interact in the same way, but because of prayer chains and such, you know so much more about each other than most people do about the average person you might attend as the acquaintance of a wedding. The only way I know to describe it as an oversharing FB page where everyone in the community is a "friend" and every little cut and boo boo is recorded for 20+ years. You may not SEE that person more than a few times in their lives, but you KNOW more about them than is probably healthy! Believe me, I lived it! :)

've known about Gothard for a while before the Duggars came out. I knew something was up with them from the beginning. Their hid their true self really well during the first few times they were on air.

As for volunteers, I see nothing wrong with it. A couple should create a wedding that fits their needs and what they want. But the Duggars take advantage of a lot of things and expect people to bend over backwards for them. It's tacky to register for gifts and post on social media and in the public. It's tacky to have a 1000 plus wedding, get volunteers who may be fans attend and feed them pickles and punch then expect a handout. My problem isn't with the volunteers it's the way they present themselves and come off.

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I got married in a Baptist church and had a reception in the church hall. Both my daughters did the same. Each church has its own unique policies (and facilities, for that matter). In the Baptist churches I've been part of, you you pay some kind of fee to the church, and that covers janitorial services and may also include the use of tables and chairs, and maybe some other supplies like table cloths, chair covers, or punch bowls. In my experience there's a committee that oversees the facilities and the supplies, and they'll help you check them out, etc., but you you have to line up your own reception workers. It's up to you whether you want to use "volunteers" or paid workers to serve. I've got a lot of well-heeled friends, and most of the people I know who can afford a sit-down meal and/or a professional caterer for the reception go ahead and hold their reception at a ritzy venue instead of the church hall. Even at these fancy and expensive weddings, however, there are nearly always some "volunteers"--that is, family members or close friends--who are manning the gift table, punch table, etc.

 

My family is of pretty modest means, and my daughters each had a wedding budget of "only" $10,000. I thought their weddings were lovely and tasteful, but I have a feeling they'd be considered tacky by some of the people on these boards, based on some of the comments I've seen on this and other Duggar threads. They could have opted for a full meal and all paid workers, but only if the guest list was limited to family only plus a handful of the closest friends. Call them tacky, but both my daughters had a lot of friends and loved ones that they wanted to share their special day with. (And amazingly, those people apparently cared more about sharing the joy than about getting a fancy meal or free booze.) Both my girls opted to invite 200-300 friends/family members & to have an afternoon wedding with a reception (that everyone was invited to) immediately following in the church hall. People were served tons of good finger foods and plenty of cake. (One also had a cotton candy machine and a candy table that people are still talking about four years later.) We had about 20 people who helped in various ways with the receptions, but they were not what I would term "volunteers"--they were close friends and family members. And believe it or not, for the most part we didn't really have to solicit them; they came to us and offered to help. Many of them insisted on buying my daughters "real" gifts in addition to donating their time and talents, even though we told them mulitiple times that their service was their wedding gift. Now, you can be sure they all received hand-written thank you notes and nice thank-you gifts. (In a few cases, they received two gifts because they had done so much, both the bride and I really wanted to give them something special.) And you can also be sure that I'll be jumping at the opportunity to reciprocate the next time those people's families have a wedding or other significant life event. But mainly they did it because in my world, that's what you do when someone's a member of your family, church family, or circle of close friends.

 

Now, in these big Duggar weddings, I suspect that some of these volunteers are FANS who have no actual personal connection to the family. I can only attest to how it's done at the "fundy" church hall receptions I've been part of.

Your daughter's weddings sounded lovely to me.  One of the best weddings I ever went to was my friend Martha's.  The family owned a dairy farm and people in the small community cooked and froze food for the wedding, which was large (about 300 people).  The brides maid's gowns were hand sewn dotted swiss cotton in a rainbow of pastel colors.  We wore large floppy hats (it was the 60's!).  There were balloons tied to the ends of the pews in church (my mother asked if they were WHITE..I guess that would have been OK in her book!) but they were multi-colored.  The reception was held on the farm under a huge tent and near a lake that her dad had excavated.  We parked our cars in a nearby field. Somehow the food all made it to the reception and it was hot and there was plenty.  Her aunt made the best wedding cake I have ever eaten and at 4 pm her dad and cousins put on their overalls and boots and went to do the milking.  I have been to many typical Long Island weddings with the cocktail hour, enormous dinner and overly loud band, but none sticks in my mind as fondly as Martha's, where so many people helped out.   I think the Duggars are typical in that this is the custom in their area and it really does not depend so much on your education or finances.  Inviting 1000 people however, was a bit much!

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I miss firehall receptions. Nowadays weddings are a competition. Well, it seems that way to me anyway.

 

True enough. Just about the nicest wedding I ever attended was held in a firehall.  I was almost 15 and an older cousin who just finished college got married. Even now 43 years later, when we get together, family members still talk about what a wonderful time we all had.

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Was it really only 4 weeks old? It was always around 6 weeks that they were given away when I was growing up (eons ago), but shelters don't seem to adopt them out until 8 weeks in this day and age. If the Duggars had it before you did, it would presumably have been at least a few days younger than that when they got it. Who would give away a kitten that young in the first place?

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Yes, he was 4 weeks & was so tiny, I could hold him in the palm of one hand! I thought most shelters didn't give up kittens till they were older also.

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My mother called me 24 hours before my best friend's wedding to ask when I was arriving (from 150 miles away), because the tables needed to be set up in the church hall for the reception. I said "I just got my nails done for my role as Maid of Honor, the bride and groom both have fathers and brothers and cousins, and I'll see you at the rehearsal dinner this evening." After the reception, it seemed clear I was expected to help clean up as well. Hell, no.

Isn't that the point of being in the bridal party? To help with everything? When I was a bridesmaid everyone in the bridal party helped set up and take down at the end. Just showing up and looking pretty seems pretty rude to me.

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Isn't that the point of being in the bridal party? To help with everything? When I was a bridesmaid everyone in the bridal party helped set up and take down at the end. Just showing up and looking pretty seems pretty rude to me.

 

I think this is a YMMV situation. I've never known the bridal party to do the set-up or take-down. I also think the OP makes a good point that there were people already on-site, instead of a 3-hour drive away, who could handle the table duties. Sometimes the bridesmaids really are expected to show up and look pretty, after spending a lot of money to do so.

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Isn't that the point of being in the bridal party? To help with everything? When I was a bridesmaid everyone in the bridal party helped set up and take down at the end. Just showing up and looking pretty seems pretty rude to me.

Nope. I have never been asked to do janitorial duties when I have been a member of a wedding party. As a member of the wedding party, your job is to help the bride and groom on their special day and help host the event. You hire people to set up a venue and to clean. You don't impose those duties on people who are helping get the tux, help the bride dress, dealing with vendors, greeting guests, etc.
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Nope. I have never been asked to do janitorial duties when I have been a member of a wedding party. As a member of the wedding party, your job is to help the bride and groom on their special day and help host the event. You hire people to set up a venue and to clean. You don't impose those duties on people who are helping get the tux, help the bride dress, dealing with vendors, greeting guests, etc.

 

Agreed and when you have to spend your own money on the dress/shoes and all that goes with looking good to support the bride and groom throughout the day/evening and in all the photos then please don't hand me a bunch of dirty dishes!

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 You hire people to set up a venue and to clean.

 

Not everyone has money to spend hiring people to do things. Many weddings are put together by the family and friends.

 

I have been to weddings where I have rushed from the church to set cold cuts out on a buffet line before the other guests got there; where I have cooked food in the church kitchen (that one I wasn't invited to the service, since I was a different religion, so I just went to the reception early), where I have stacked chairs after the reception, and where I have refilled drinks and handed out champagne to other guests, despite being a guest myself.

 

I've done all of these things wearing a formal dress and heels. One of them I was in the actual wedding party, spent a few hundred on a dress and shoes, other times I was an invited guest, who was just a good friend/close family member of either the bride or the bride's mother, and pitched in to help.

 

At my wedding, we hired people- but just because I did that doesn't mean everyone does.

Edited by Skittl1321

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My mother called me 24 hours before my best friend's wedding to ask when I was arriving (from 150 miles away), because the tables needed to be set up in the church hall for the reception.  I said "I just got my nails done for my role as Maid of Honor, the bride and groom both have fathers and brothers and cousins, and I'll see you at the rehearsal dinner this evening."  After the reception, it seemed clear I was expected to help clean up as well.  Hell, no.

I'm surprised they didn't ask you to cook all the food while you were at it. I don't mind helping within reasonable limits, but I'm not going to be an indentured servant for anyone. If you can't afford a wedding and the expenses it requires, don't have one. 

 

The Duggars are fortunate enough to have an army of leg humpers willing to do their shitwork for free. Personally I don't care about any stranger's wedding that much that I'm going to be on my feet for ten hours setting up a church and the bride can't even be bothered to come thank everyone in person.  

Edited by BitterApple
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Probably more like this

Best-Wedding-Updos-15.jpg

 

or this

Best-Wedding-Updos-14.jpg

 

I've never heard of the big complicated chignons referred to as hairy brains, but I definitely see why someone might call it that

The pictures are spot on. The hairy brains reference came from guests in weddings. It has stuck with me ever since.

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But some cultures (and I would include the Duggars' culture in this) ENJOY having big weddings where everyone pitches in and volunteers to make the big wedding happen.  They do not regard it as indentured servitude, and think that baking the cake, decorating the church, preparing and serving the food, etc, is actually a great way to create and sustain a community.  If you actually paid for that, people within that world would be genuinely hurt. 

It's all well and good that people have different ideas of how a wedding should be done -- I've been and enjoyed all sorts of different weddings from the Art Institute of Chicago to the local fire hall, but there doesn't have to be any judgement on how someone else chooses to do another.  People have lots of reasons for choosing what they do -- sometimes its money, sometimes is culture, sometimes it's just because.

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My friend and I discussed from the outset that the emphasis was on the word "Honor", not "Maid".  In fact, we agreed that I was nobody's "Maid" and would be called "Best Woman", until the priest vetoed that. 

 

Apparently there is some horrible southern tradition of the House Party - all of your female friends who are not good enough to be bridesmaids get invited to be part of the House Party. They are expected to buy a dress to match the bridesmaids, but are not special enough to stand at the front of the church.  They get to do all the work, and are supposed to be honored to do it. 

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Ok, that's a new one to me.  And I have some pretty southern roots.  And I think that's awful.  (But there I go judging!)  :)

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Agreed and when you have to spend your own money on the dress/shoes and all that goes with looking good to support the bride and groom throughout the day/evening and in all the photos then please don't hand me a bunch of dirty dishes!

 

I've never been asked to do dirty dishes.  But where I'm from, the bridal party and family all helps out with set up the day before, and taking apart at the end of the evening.  No one is going to ask you to do something that is going to get you all dirty during the wedding.  Sorry, I thought this was a much more common thing considering it's all I've seen, but it could be a regional thing.

Also, I had to travel for the wedding I was in, I wasn't able to help out with making the decorations, or doing invitations, or anything like that, so I made sure that I was there to help set up.

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Not everyone has money to spend hiring people to do things. Many weddings are put together by the family and friends.

 

Ah but therein lies the rub...we are talking about The Duggars who DO have the money to hire people to do things and would be helping support those who could use the money and TLC I am sure contributed to putting this wedding together!

Edited by Foghorn Leghorn
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Long time lurker here. I got married 11 years ago and I didn't expect my bridal party to help with decorating etc. If I remember correctly the florist I used set up the decorations in the church and the reception site we chose (centerpieces etc) and I believe it was either them or the reception hall who cleaned up afterwards. But that was my wedding others may not have done that. We also had a buffet at the reception catered by the hall. My table went first and then it was a different numbered table after etc. Cash bar for mixed drinks but beer/water/pop was free. MMV of course as to what anyone else has done.

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But what if the small army of volunteers WANTS to help and would have felt put out if you had hired people to take their place?

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But what if the small army of volunteers WANTS to help and would have felt put out if you had hired people to take their place?

 

Let them help all they want but The Duggars could also consider it charitable to pay people to provide their services so they can feed their families.  

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And I keep trying to say that a lot of those people would feel insulted if they were paid.  Helping is their GIFT.  It's part of what it means to be part of the community.  Being paid would make them hired help, and would demean them in their own eyes, and would make the Duggars look terrible to them.  

Now, if the Duggars had not included them at the rehearsal dinner, or something like that, it would be different.  But sometimes offering people money is the WORST THING you can do.

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I didn't know where to put this so here it goes:

 

Amara Query was one of Jessa's bridemaids. I know she teaches the littles maybe music? Does she live with them and is she the same girl in the pictures posted a while back on Radar with her sitting next to JD? Doesn't look like the same girl but now I need to know more about her.

Edited by Fuzzysox

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Hi everyone,

 

I was reading about the growing Dugger controversy and it got me wondering. I'm a teacher (not in the US) and my grade 7 and 8 health curriculums have stuff to cover about gender identity and sexual orientation in 7 and media stereotypes relating to sexual orientation in grade 8 (The 8s also have "options for unplanned pregnancy"). Given all the debate about marriage rights etc, what, if anything is being taught in the public schools? Anyone know or want to share?

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Taken from the Duggars in the Media thread:

This made me think. It seems like there are two major trains of thought when it comes to how anti-gay Christians think of homosexuality:

1. Homosexuality is a choice. Gay people can choose to no longer be gay.

2. Homosexuality is not a choice. Gay people are not necessarily wrong for having same-sex desires; however, they should not act upon them. It doesn’t matter if they have no control over their feelings, it’s a test from God.

I’m wondering which attitude is more common among the different denominations/groups? With the Duggars and their talk about how Michelle’s sister’s lifestyle, I’m guessing they believe in #1. And, well, there’s a reason why we have reparative therapy.

In college I was part of a fellowship group with Southern Baptist roots, and the leader of the group once talked about a girl he counseled. According to him, the girl identified as a lesbian, but only because she had been previously sexually abused by a man.

But it seems like some Christian denominations are moving away from that - maybe they’ve realized that they’re largely lost the battle on that one - and acknowledging that yes, homosexuality isn’t necessarily a choice, but that that doesn’t make gay activity/behavior okay. So, fine, if you’re gay you’re not necessarily sinning, but if you act upon your feelings, then you are.

Here's the thing about gays and society. If gay people pay taxes have jobs donate organs and blood why can't they get married? I don't understand why people are against gays. They're not doing anything wrong

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Where I am (Northern Va) the curriculum is fairly extensive and comprehensive. Parents are given the chance to opt out at the beginning of each year.

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Too many threads almost impossible to know where to post because they overlap.  Why are there two threads, one an episode and at least two more for Dill and Jill?  (and I know in my heart I likely posted in the wrong thread of 30)

Edited by KitKat
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