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S04.E08: Halfway To A Donut


Tara Ariano
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Did Khan figure out that Boyd was providing intel to Tazneen simply because he saw the two conversing before the mtg. (and something with a napkin?), or was there something else?

 

Yes, Khan saw Tasneem write something on a napkin and leave the napkin on the table and then saw Boyd pick it up.

That and Tasneem chewed Khan out, telling him that Carrie was psychotic and would be on her way home now if he hadn't "interfered". Also, Carrie told Khan that someone switched her pills.

Khan may have discovered more information off screen after checking-up on Tasneem, and that may be presented in upcoming episodes (I'm not saying this will happen, only that it may).

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I mean, I get that Tasneem is on Team Haqqani. But the Americans seem to be coming to a realization that so is the Pakistani president. (Or whatever the title is of the head guy who sits on that side of the table.) In other words, every single member of the Pakistani government except the head of their intelligence services!

 

I think historically that's going to be pretty accurate, Milburn Stone.  Kahn has a military title, I think it was either General or Colonel , but Pakistan has had a history of the government being ousted via military coup.    The most would have been the coup (s) surrounding Pervez Musharraf's time in office.  Musharraf's government was perceived as being more friendly to U.S. concerns.  

 

So they are just playing to history there, where the Pakistani military and the Pakistani prime minister are often working from separate agendas.  

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Plausible deniability, Pakistani style?

 

Plausible deniability is when someone is deliberately kept in the dark so they'll be able to say they don't know something and say it with complete honesty. So you're saying the head of Pakistani Inteliigence would be kept in the dark on this? I could see maybe those under him keeping him in the dark. But in this case, his superiors, up to the highest level, are also in on the subterfuge! Even if their idea is to preserve his plausible deniability, how could he not know, when he's apparently the only member in the entire Pakistani government who doesn't? Where are his supposed intelligence-gathering skills?

Edited by Milburn Stone
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That and Tasneem chewed Khan out, telling him that Carrie was psychotic and would be on her way home now if he hadn't "interfered". Also, Carrie told Khan that someone switched her pills.Khan may have discovered more information off screen after checking-up on Tasneem, and that may be presented in upcoming episodes (I'm not saying this will happen, only that it may).

Right. I got all that re: Khan and Taasneen, I was just wondering more about Boyd. That "napkin" exchange seems a fairly ambiguous way to base his spy conclusion on, but I'll go with it.

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The only thing that puzzles me a bit is how Khan could be the one figure in all of Pakistani government who doesn't know his government is secretly on the side of the Taliban. I mean, I get that Tasneem is on Team Haqqani. But the Americans seem to be coming to a realization that so is the Pakistani president. (Or whatever the title is of the head guy who sits on that side of the table.) In other words, every single member of the Pakistani government except the head of their intelligence services!

 

I don't think Bunny is President, but a Minister, since I believe in this episode or the previous episode someone referred to Bunny as a Minister.  Of what I don't know.

 

I also don't think we can assume that the Pakistani government is monolith, and that everyone we've seen from the Pakistani government shares the same views about the the Taliban.

 

Clearly Tasneem is sympathetic to the Taliban to the point where she's a Taliban collaborator, or could be considered as essentially a Taliban agent within the ISI.  She hasn't told Khan about her role in kidnapping Saul, and only just hinted to Khan about her role in drugging Carrie.

 

There may be some in the Pakistan government who are sick of the Taliban tail wagging the Pakistani dog.  Khan may be among those.  Emphasis on may.

 

Then there may be some who straddle a middle ground, and Bunny may be one of those.  If there's a group that has taken over, or is trying to take over, a neighboring country, you'll want to keep tabs on it, have some form of communication and play carrot and stick with it.  Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I think Bunny was a little disconcerted that one of the people to be released was someone who killed several Pakistani citizens.  Once again, emphasis on may.

 

I don't think Khan is ignorant that some in the Pakistani government are sympathetic to the Taliban.  He seems quiet observant -- noticing Tasneem & Dennis's interaction at the embassy -- but he also keeps his cards close to his chest.  Unlike Tasneem, he's not repeatedly piping-up in the meetings to say that we're not Haqqani/Taliban, we don't speak for them but may be able to contact them, blah, blah blah (in this episode's meetings, I think Tasneem spoke more often than Bunny; perhaps the lady doth protest too much).  Khan doesn't react much and says things like "I think that's unfortunate" when asked what he thinks about the malfunctioning security cameras at the airport (because if you were trying to roll-up a competing and/or rogue ISI faction, it would be unfortunate).

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I don't think Bunny is President, but a Minister, since I believe in this episode or the previous episode someone referred to Bunny as a Minister.  Of what I don't know.

 

Thanks for your whole analysis, Constantinople. I just went looking for what Bunny's office is, and a recap on the New York Daily News site says that he is Foreign Minister. So now it makes sense to me that he might be (partially) in the Taliban's pocket without necessarily the entire Pakistani government minus Khan being in the Taliban's pocket.

 

(I mean, it's not like he's the Pakistani Prime Minister. Which is what I assumed him to be.)

Edited by Milburn Stone
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The only thing that puzzles me a bit is how Khan could be the one figure in all of Pakistani government who doesn't know his government is secretly on the side of the Taliban. I mean, I get that Tasneem is on Team Haqqani. But the Americans seem to be coming to a realization that so is the Pakistani president. (Or whatever the title is of the head guy who sits on that side of the table.) In other words, every single member of the Pakistani government except the head of their intelligence services!

 

Answering a question with a question: is Khan is the Pakastinis' Saul?  

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Answering a question with a question: is Khan the Pakastinis' Saul?  

 

Good question, Pallas. There are certainly parallels. There are also parallels between Carrie and Tasneem. (Even though we hate Tasneem.) Carrie has been running a secret operation the higher levels of the CIA know nothing about, just as Tasneem has been doing under the nose of the director of the ISI.

 

Which forces us to consider what makes someone a "good guy" versus a "bad guy." It all comes down to self-interest. Since the two sides are parallel, the only difference is, which side best serves your own interests? Being Americans, and not wanting to see any more of our buildings come down, we pick Carrie.

 

Self-interest (sometimes in the form of an ability to project ourselves into a situation, and consider where our interests would lie, were we in this situation that doesn't directly replicate our own) always determines which side we think of as "good," in every story, in every genre. But this show has a way of making you confront that.

Edited by Milburn Stone
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The only thing that puzzles me a bit is how Khan could be the one figure in all of Pakistani government who doesn't know his government is secretly on the side of the Taliban.

 

 

I didn't think he was/is entirely unaware--I just thought he didn't know the specific lengths Tasneem was going to (swiping Saul, drugging Carrie, etc.). That's why he's compelling to me as a character: he's not entirely good, but also isn't as bad as he could be. Every man has a code (trademark Omar).

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I think it's safe to say that Tasneem is a Taliban double agent within the ISI, I doubt that she's analogous to Carrie running a secret operation (secretly authorised by Saul). Tasneem basically kidnapped Saul, handed him over to Haqqani in order to effect a prisoner exchange, releasing prisoners the Pakistani foreign minister (at least) doesn't want released. That's treason, but then again the Taliban's probably engrained itself within Pakistani society so much so that the term treason doesn't have same sense it normally would.

 

 

I didn't think he was/is entirely unaware--I just thought he didn't know the specific lengths Tasneem was going to (swiping Saul, drugging Carrie, etc.). That's why he's compelling to me as a character: he's not entirely good, but also isn't as bad as he could be. Every man has a code (trademark Omar).

 

 

Since I've concluded that Tasneem is a Taliban mole, I think Khan will come to discover the same. But discovering that fact does not mean running off to the CIA station chief, he is after all a Pakistani official and will feel it's in Pakistan's interest to capture spies within their ranks themselves. I don't know how much Khan suspects of Tasneem but it was enough to derail her operation with Boyd. Or maybe derailing that operation (without giving up Tasneem) was the price to get a cooperative working relationship with Carrie. He doesn't talk much, so we might have to wait a while to discover which way he leans.

Edited by Boundary
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Khan has a pretty sweet crib. I envy his four poster bed in the detoxing guest room. I also noticed his security detail. Too bad Saul didn't have a similar setup when he was CIA Director and Mossad agents were furtively trying to plant bugs in his house while cuckolding him.

Edited by RandomX
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No wonder Khan has all the amenities of a tech startup mogul; he is one on Elementary.

ETA: Recap from New York Times (artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/homeland-recap-sauls-cry-to-carrie/ ) made me realize the real reason Carrie manipulated Saul back to Haqqani's squad was so if/when she dropped the bomb on Saul, at least Haqqani would get blown to smithereens too.

Edited by shapeshifter
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Rewatched. Don't know what this means, but Khan and Carrie's meeting in the rain gave me strong flashbacks of Carrie courting Brodie-- obviously the rain thing, but also Khan slipping her a gambit of intel, the little trust dance they were both doing, Carrie's ( once again) convenient forays into vulnerability. It further occured to me that Khan could easily get close to Carrie by pretending he was being roped in by her. You think?

Oh, stillshimpy was heading that way, too. Sorry.

Edited by bunnywithanaxe
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Khan has a pretty sweet crib. I envy his four poster bed in the detoxing guest room. I also noticed his security detail. Too bad Saul didn't have a similar setup when he was CIA Director and Mossad agents were furtively trying to plant bugs in his house while cuckolding him.

The waking up scene reminded me, only vaguely, of Kim Novak waking up in Jimmy Stewart's bed in Vertigo Only Khan went the extra mile and changed Carrie into some cute jammies.

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I found this episode really suspenseful and emotional, but although it was heartbreaking to watch Saul go through what he did, I found it really exciting creatively, from a big-picture standpoint. I loved the writing here, and felt like this episode was a smart and believable culmination of several occasionally frustrating plots and interactions, yet that came to fruition in a really satisfying way.

 

I'm guessing more escapes lead to recapture than not--although he should have been successful once the Special Forces got involved.

<snip> So I fanwanked that Saul knew some special pressure points and choking methods from his youthful days as a spy, plus adrenalin.

 

I was so exhilarated at Saul's escape, and that made his recapture that much more painful to watch. But I found it believable, and I loved the smart way the ISI was able to realistically track and recapture Saul, using the West's own technology against it.

Meanwhile, I wasn't bothered by Saul's physical abilities -- he is after all a highly trained operative going back decades, and I felt that his actions were believable once you factored in adrenalin -- and most of all, the fact that Saul literally did not care if he lived or died. His goal here seemed to be, pretty starkly, escape or die. Either one was good for him.

 

I've always enjoyed the emotional beats this show hits regardless of the lack of plausibility. The relationship between Saul and Carrie is my favorite and hearing him curse her was truly heartbreaking. I look forward to their dynamic in the aftermath of these events (if Saul survives).

That's very much me as well. And further -- the relationship between Saul and Carrie is my favorite on the show, which was why I was really blown away by all of the conversations here, and I was totally on Carrie's side, even though Patinkin made Saul's pain so palpable.

 

I was also riveted because, one of the things I like about this show is that I do feel like we could lose any character but Carrie at basically any time. I was holding my breath when Saul held the gun under his chin -- this was absolutely Patinkin's best work to date. Watching those red triangles converge on poor Saul's little green triangle was like watching insects swarming a corpse, just terrifying. And while I do think Saul is willing to die, I also think (as we saw here) it will not be easy for him to actually take that action -- he is a character who palpably loves life.

 

Clearly Tasneem is sympathetic to the Taliban to the point where she's a Taliban collaborator, or could be considered as essentially a Taliban agent within the ISI.  She hasn't told Khan about her role in kidnapping Saul, and only just hinted to Khan about her role in drugging Carrie.

 

There may be some in the Pakistan government who are sick of the Taliban tail wagging the Pakistani dog.  Khan may be among those.  Emphasis on may.

I agree with this take and found it really illuminating. I like the way the season has managed to do a slow and realistic reveal on Khan and his character and motives.

 

Self-interest (sometimes in the form of an ability to project ourselves into a situation, and consider where our interests would lie, were we in this situation that doesn't directly replicate our own) always determines which side we think of as "good," in every story, in every genre. But this show has a way of making you confront that.

It's interesting. One of the things I like about Carrie is that she is haunted by 9/11 (and later by the CIA bombing in-show) and terrified that it will happen again unless she herself takes action. For me, this arrogance and drive is the perfect encapsulation of what makes Carrie maddening as a character and yet heroic at the same time -- she is trying to avert acts of absolute evil. Yet at the same time, I also really like the fact that the show tends to be genuinely nuanced in how it writes and addresses its Middle Eastern characters.

While I never found Nazir all that interesting (he was a bit mustache-twirly for me, even with Brody), I found Javadi absolutely fascinating as both a villain (and something more); he simply had a completely alien view, to me, of what was acceptable and unacceptable. And of course there's Fara, and this season's genuinely nuanced assortment of Middle Eastern characters of all agendas. I think the show does this kind of thing better than most, and I think the fact that it's willing to ask tough questions is one of its strengths.

 

Since I've concluded that Tasneem is a Taliban mole, I think Khan will come to discover the same. But discovering that fact does not mean running off to the CIA station chief, he is after all a Pakistani official and will feel it's in Pakistan's interest to capture spies within their ranks themselves. I don't know how much Khan suspects of Tasneem but it was enough to derail her operation with Boyd. Or maybe derailing that operation (without giving up Tasneem) was the price to get a cooperative working relationship with Carrie. He doesn't talk much, so we might have to wait a while to discover which way he leans.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the way Khan's character has unfolded, and I like the fact that we seem to be seeing him as a part of the Pakistani political machine in a different way. It's been a lot of fun storywise to begin to realize that his goals actually may not be aligned with those of Tasneem after all -- and I like that gradual introduction, as I admit that in the beginning, I did pretty much assume that the two were in total sync.

 

Khan has a pretty sweet crib. I envy his four poster bed in the detoxing guest room.

 

I loved that the bathroom in Khan's guest suite is stocked with piles of fluffy towels and a shelf of bottled water.

 

I admit it. My poor inner 13-year-old girl was having hysterics throughout that entire scene, because first of all, that bedroom was gorgeous, but then when you added in the linens, bottled water, and beautiful Khan carrying Carrie tenderly back to bed, well, my brain basically turned off and I was just a poor little blithering shipper while also mentally shopping for everything in the room. (A shipper/shopper -- the ultimate evil!) It's so embarrassing. ::sad Peanuts music::

 

Luckily, I managed to resurface within a minute or two and by the time we got to the devastating scenes with Saul at the end, I was human again. But that's what gets me about this show -- I often find that I respond while watching emotionally and intellectually, often quite separately, and then after the show I kind of have to sit and think and figure out how those thoughts and feelings actually mesh. But I thought this was an absolutely outstanding episode, one of the show's best thus far.

Edited by paramitch
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Plausible deniability is when someone is deliberately kept in the dark so they'll be able to say they don't know something and say it with complete honesty.

Not for nothing, Milburn, but what you describe is actual deniability.  Plausible deniability is when you can lie about knowing and there is some chance that you're not lying - it's 'plausible' that someone in your position might not know so-and-so, so if it turns into a land mine, you might survive the blast.  

 

Deliberately leaving a superior (or inferior) in the dark is a way of making sure they won't be ready should a scandal erupt.  This isn't providing them cover, it's screwing them over.  Being genuinely ignorant never saved anyone, it's knowing that saves you.

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...Deliberately leaving a superior (or inferior) in the dark is a way of making sure they won't be ready should a scandal erupt.  This isn't providing them cover, it's screwing them over.  Being genuinely ignorant never saved anyone, it's knowing that saves you.

Which is why I said "Plausible deniability, Pakistani style?" (http://forums.previously.tv/topic/18165-s04e08-halfway-to-a-donut/#entry581413) thinking of the history of coups in Pakistan. Sorry to both of you (Milburn too), I should have explained what I meant by that. It was an attempt at snark.
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What I appreciated too was that Quinn did NOT make a move on Carrie.  I know it seems like the show is shoving romance at us, but it feels like that might aim for something more subtle.  He cares about her, but understandably feels ambivalent about what sort of woman she is and the choices she makes. 

 

Of course she's brave and tought and willing to make hard decisions and choices.  I don't hold it against her that she seduced the "boy" as they called him.  She had three days.  How do you get a person to trust you in three days?  Romance does work.  Sex works.  And I know we've seen Carrie goes this route a few times, so it's a  bit tired, but when you are fairly attractive and able to seduce, I guess you use the tools available to you.  Obviously not an option for Saul.  Or Redmond.

 

But I can see why Quinn feels highly ambivalent about her.  He admires her guts, her brains, her bravery.  But I think her ruthlessness turns him off.  He wants her to be softer.  He's the one who pointed out to her that she loved Brody.  Quinn, despite being a badass assassin, is more in touch with his emotions.  It's kind of attractive.  Very attractive.  But maybe not the right fit for Carrie.  Quinn, go find a nice redhead somewhere and settle down, will you? 

 

Question--was Quinn was one of the guys listening to her when she had sex with Brody in the hotel?  I think he might have been and iiiick.

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Question--was Quinn was one of the guys listening to her when she had sex with Brody in the hotel?

 

Oh yes.  Quinn was the one -- of all the guys witnessing -- who was emphatically listening.  As I recall, he turned up the volume to freak out Saul.  

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Meanwhile, I wasn't bothered by Saul's physical abilities -- he is after all a highly trained operative going back decades, and I felt that his actions were believable once you factored in adrenalin -- and most of all, the fact that Saul literally did not care if he lived or died. His goal here seemed to be, pretty starkly, escape or die. Either one was good for him.

It didn't bother me either. As you said Saul has had years of hand to hand combat training. Plus he was highly motivated. Plus how much training would a young Taliban fighter have. The show established that they aren't very smart, I think it was this episode that there was a line about how people writing ransom notes are basically illiterate.  I doubt they would get anything close to CIA level fighting training, probably more like "do you hate the west? Good here is an AK-47". I mean there was those videos they always used to show on the news of terrorist training camps and dudes on monkey bars.  

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I guess Khan really is on the side  of the angels (or some suitable Islamic reference!). Although as he's (by all appearances) a loyal soldier and Taliban agent lady is his superior, if she'd simply ordered him not to interfere, the operation would have gone off without a hitch. Obviously, that would be a bad thing from our perspective, so nice to know the "Bad Guys" can be just as short sighted as our heroes! Unless he's playing a long(er) game, of course, which is always a possibility.

 

Saul was truly Bad ass in his escape. Not just the escape itself (which was pretty damn impressive, given he had to overwhelm a guy half his age and then walk for something like twenty miles. If only they'd stuck to the low tech means of escape, Saul could be back in Islamabad free and clear. As many insurgencies have realised, the Americans' over reliance on technology can be their Achilles heel.

 

I did like Carrie admitting that switching her medication, while underhand, was fair enough. It's a dirty game, but she can't deny she's a legitimate target.

 

Kerrey92 I didn't understand why Lockhart immediately gave in to ISI demands when they recaptured Saul

 

That puzzled me too. Previously he'd been all "Collateral Damage is acceptable in pursuit of our goals" and while losing the former head of the CIA would be embarrassing, it's not half as embarrassing as having him turn up in Taliban videos and/or being tortured for intel. At least Carrie has the excuse that she sees Saul as surrogate father figure - Lockhart doesn't even like him!

 

stillshimpy - "Saul. maybe you should at least consider a hat of some sort??"

 

Apparently it's against CIA policy, since Sandy didn't wear one either!

Edited by John Potts
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On ‎17‎.‎11‎.‎2014 at 7:19 AM, shapeshifter said:

Just like Brody was supposed to die at the end of season one but they kept him alive because Damien Lewis was worth keeping on the show, I think it might have been a mistake here to not let Saul and Carrie do their ILYs over the phone and then he shoots himself, even though it is Mandy F'in' Patinkin. 

 

On ‎17‎.‎11‎.‎2014 at 1:46 PM, Boundary said:

I think Carrie did the right thing. Live to fight another if you've lost a battle - the war is still on. Saul will feel betrayed because that's the kind of man he is but as far as Carrie is concerned it's better to have him angry at her, but alive to do so. If there was a time to take out Saul, it was when taking him out meant taking Haqqani out too; no time to second guess that decision now. Is Saul's life worth giving up the whole command structure? No, but it gives breathing room to try again and as luck would have it, Carrie gets the Boyd clue.

While in some cases it's right to not to die but flee in order to be able to fight another day, I think that Carrie did the wrong decision. First, Saul wanted to die rather than to become a prisoner again and Carrie lied to him. I think Saul had the right to learn the truth and make his decision on the basis of it. 

Second, by accepting to change one American for a group of terrorist leaders, the CIA and US government gave a general sign to the terrorists that they have no guts and can be pressured in the future as well as gave a signal to the US allies that the country can't trusted to stay firm.

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