S10.E05: Fan Fiction

[catrox14]

It's a nice headcanon that I can't really adopt right now. 

 

Dean made a valid choice to dispose of a gift  that no longer meant what it did before. I never thought Dean got rid of it out of spite but because he was heartbroken and disillusioned and it really had lost meaning for him and Dean was entitled to that emotion and feeling. Dean never seemed to regret getting rid of it and Sam never mentioned it again nor did he seem to be all that upset about it. The long hover over the trash can IMO was just for dramatic purposes.  It seems to me if Sam really cared would have seen him dumpster dive to retrieve it.

 

IMO the Samulet meant more to fandom than the show itself and I am not so sure that is enough of a reason to bring it back much less have the brothers keep it. 

[ohjoy]

IMO the Samulet meant more to fandom than the show itself and I am not so sure that is enough of a reason to bring it back much less have the brothers keep it.

I do agree with this; but I guess because I see this episode as more of a one-off rather than something that has significant bearing on the season's mytharc, I don't mind seeing it amulet for this special occasion. (Same goes for Chuck.)

[catrox14]

I do agree with this; but I guess because I see this episode as more of a one-off rather than something that has significant bearing on the season's mytharc, I don't mind seeing it amulet for this special occasion. (Same goes for Chuck.)

And this is precisely my worry. That the amulet and Chuck are going to inform the rest of the season. I hope I am as wrong as I could be.

[AwesomO4000]

It's a nice headcanon that I can't really adopt right now. 

 

Dean made a valid choice to dispose of a gift  that no longer meant what it did before. I never thought Dean got rid of it out of spite but because he was heartbroken and disillusioned and it really had lost meaning for him and Dean was entitled to that emotion and feeling. Dean never seemed to regret getting rid of it and Sam never mentioned it again nor did he seem to be all that upset about it. The long hover over the trash can IMO was just for dramatic purposes.  It seems to me if Sam really cared would have seen him dumpster dive to retrieve it.

 

IMO the Samulet meant more to fandom than the show itself and I am not so sure that is enough of a reason to bring it back much less have the brothers keep it. 

 

I thought that Sam was very upset about it myself. That's the way Jared seemed to play it to me, and I don't think that has anything to do with him not immediately retrieving it. I'm actually of two minds about that. On one hand, I wanted Sam to have retrieved it, because I actually believe it does mean something on the show - not just to the fans - since we even had an episode where one of the main focuses was the origin of the gift, what it originally meant, and what it then meant to Sam (it was why he changed his mind and gave Dean a Christmas as a way to acknowledge and try to give back to Dean). And we had it's significance to Dean - even with how angry he was with Sam - when he didn't want to give it to Castiel at the beginning of the season, and that had nothing to do with its supposed ability to help find God. So for these reasons, I wanted Sam to pick it back up.

 

On the other hand, I didn't want Sam to have retrieved the necklace just about as much. And that's because despite how much it hurt Sam, and I believe that it did, deeply, I can see Sam respecting Dean's choice to throw it away, and his not getting it out of the trash was Sam accepting Dean's criticisms, Dean's anger, and Dean's pain about what had happened. Dean was done, dumping the "burden," and Sam accepted that and decided instead that he'd do something else for his and Dean's relationship and to prove to Dean that it wasn't like that -  which lead to Sam's resolve in "Point of No Return" and to Sam's decision that he would man up and end it by jumping in the cage, so that Dean no longer had to feel obligated to take care of things for Sam. Sam would fix it himself.

 

I agree with SueB's findings, though, that it was significant that Dean put the prop amulet on the rearview mirror between them rater than back on his neck. It represented a new start. Not the old meaning of the original amulet that meant not just the brotherly bond, but responsibility as well, and Sam looking at Dean as the person he depended on to be there for him - which was why Sam gave it to Dean in the first place. So putting it on the mirror was sort of a symbol that Dean was acknowledging their brotherly bond, but he wasn't going to wear it on his sleeve like a burden anymore. It was there for both of them.

 

I don't think it's return means a return to what the amulet originally meant. It's not the original amulet and it's not on Dean's neck, but hanging in their "home" between them.

[DittyDotDot]

I just hope the amulet means that Sam and Dean will be on better terms and it's a sign of the return of the banter rather than the endless bicker of the last couple of seasons.

[SueB]

I actually expect it to be gone in the next episode.  It's a bit cumbersome, could come flying off at any minute in a car chase, and provides a slight obscuration to the rear view mirror.  Plus they'd have to be sure it was "just right" in every version of the Impala and between takes.  That's a lot of work for a little bit.  So, if they don't have it up there, I won't take it as "it was all for nothing" but rather, it's not practical to keep it there.  Unless they shorten the string considerably and affix it so that it doesn't actually block the mirror and doesn't float around.

[Aeryn13]

Late to the party but then I wouldn`t say I particularly enjoyed this episode. Sure, it wasn`t AS offensive as I feared it would be but still had plenty of stuff I don`t care for.

 

Second time in a row we had a Dean who just isn`t fit to be even a noob hunter. He can`t fight - like, seriously, he can`t anymore - he doesn`t know stuff, he can`t work cases. Teenage girls have to save him now. He is basically incompetent. And nothing was made out to be MOC-related, it just happens to be his new state of being.

 

Then we get the play being orchestrated by a Sam-girl. Dean-fans? Don`t exist. Anywhere. Becky was a Sam-girl, Marie is one. And from both we get the expected pimping of their favourite. Here it was "sweet, selfless, brave Sam, he can do anything". Groan. It`s shit like that happening for the last 9 and a half years that turned me off the character. More is just making it worse.

 

Meanwhile when Dean gets complimented for something, it`s for being a brother/nursemaid/caretaker not for being a hero in general, or brave or selfless or anything a bit more, well, more. So, the song about him? I don`t think he would have gotten much from it even if he had listened to. He has gotten some kudos for being a good enough nanny before. Amazingly, it did nothing for his self-esteem. Go figure. That`s the same crap like being Bobby`s favourite vs. being the better hunter. 

 

Then of course there is the stupid "Samulet". You can guess why I hate the name. It used to be an amulet Dean wore. Now the name makes it all about Sam already. And it was pushed on Dean in a shaming "you should never have thrown it away" spiel. So the Sam-girl Marie is of course of the opinion that anything worthy about Dean and anything Dean should ever be is and should be wrapped up in Sam and the "SAMulet" is the embodiment of that. Kill me now. And Dean second. Because that is just pathetic.    

 

So, yeah, wake me up when Dean recovers either his hunting/badass skills, brains or gets validated outside of "revolves around Sam". I guess I`ll be sleeping till the show is over, will I.  

[rue721]

I agree with SueB's findings, though, that it was significant that Dean put the prop amulet on the rearview mirror between them rater than back on his neck. It represented a new start.

 

I agree, I saw it as a new start, and also a reminder/symbol for *both* of them that they love each other. Dean said within the episode that he didn't need the amulet to remind him how he feels about his brother, so I think putting it up in the car like that was him *telling* Sam he loves him (not just reminding himself of that), and the look that Sam gives afterward is Sam telling Dean that he loves him, too.

 

If the famulet isn't on the rear view this next episode, though, I'm not going to take it as meaning that they don't love each other anymore. I thought it was the putting it up there in the first place and the look afterward that counted. I do *hope* it's on the rearview, though, because I thought that was sweet. But I'm a sap, what can I say.

 

I also agree that I don't think the show foresaw what a long shadow the original amulet was going to cast when Dean threw it away*, though I think they knew it was a pretty major symbol in general since they built quite a lot of story around it. I mean it had a whole episode devoted to its origin story, that's enough for a backdoor pilote/spinoff! Anyway, maybe I see the amulet in general a little differently, because I thought it was always a way of them communicating with each other -- Sam gave it to Dean to say he loved him, Dean wore it to say he loved Sam/they loved each other, Dean threw it away because he was tripping out that he didn't believe Sam loved him anymore, now Dean believes that they love each other again so a version of the amulet is back up in the car.

 

*Right now I'm doing a scattered/casual rewatch from the pilot on, and there are certain times when it becomes clear particular episodes are written by men, because how the writers are portraying the (ordinary/real-life, not demon-hunt-y) things that the characters are doing makes it seem like they're personally unfamiliar with those things or those things don't have much personal significance/meaning to them (in a way that's much less likely to be true of women). Like in Something Wicked, the babysitting/childcare arrangements are really poorly thought out, stuff like that. Imo the moment of Dean throwing away the amulet at the end of Dark Side of the Moon is in that category. I think the writers were thinking of that gesture as at about the same symbolic level as if Dean had taken Sam's picture out of his wallet and tossed it as he was leaving the motel room, something like that -- that is, important, meaingful, but not the kind of thing where the other person is going to fish the picture out of the trash or everyone is going to wonder about the picture afterward, etc. Whereas I think the audience (including myself) saw much greater connotations to throwing away a piece of symbolic jewelry like that. I mean, I think of making a gesture like that (throwing away a piece of jewelry that really means something/was given or passed down to you) as really *severing* the bond and yes, of course if the other person still cares about the bond they're going to take the piece of jewelry out of the trash and probably save it for a day they might be able to give it back, etc. But I think I see those connotations because jewelry often gets used to represent promises for women (not just wedding rings, also engagement rings, promise rings, passing jewelry down from other generations, even cheap kid jewelry like friendship bracelets and those best-friend broken heart necklaces, etc etc etc) in a way that it doesn't often for men. I mean, I think of throwing away something like, the ring my mom gave me for my 18th birthday and I'm like WUT NEVER. I hardly ever even wear that ring but if I were to throw it away in front of her, it would be a HUUUUUUUGE deal, and yes, she'd probably take it out of the trash and save it, and if she didn't, that would be akin to her saying the bond was severed on her end, too. But I don't think that men generally have that sort of experience or associations attached to jewelry (aside from their wedding rings, maybe, but even those are generally not given to them really, they usually purchase them themselves) and imo the writers didn't appreciate what connotations the audience would see in that gesture. Anyway, I'm not debating whether Dean was right to throw the amulet away or Sam was right to leave it in the trash or any of that -- my point is just that when imo they acknowledged in this episode that Dean throwing away the amulet (and Sam apparently not keeping it) had a bigger/longer impact than they'd foreseen, I think that's probably true -- but I don't think the issue is that the audience was making mountains out of molehills (for once maybe!), I think it's that the writers didn't appreciate the connotations that that particular gesture would have (I think they were thinking of the connotations in terms of Dean/Sam's relationship specifically, as in, that Sam gave Dean the amulet, etc, but they didn't think of the general cultural connotations that people would see). YMMV, I just think that's what the show was acknowledging when it brought up the amulet and had Dean even talk about it specifically.

[catrox14]

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here and I totally understand the symbolism behind the the hanging of the amulet between them.

 

But the amulet was never what was heavy around Dean's neck. It was the burden of being a parent when he was a child. It's the burden of being unable to detach from Sammy in a healthy way. It's Dean's pathological burden of Save Sammy that IMO the amulet represents and to me that is what I feel as a viewer.  I thought it was sad that Dean threw it away, but I also in a way was happy to see it go because it meant Dean was supposedly finding a path to something else.  I agree that Sam was hurt that Dean threw it away initially but after that I don't think he cared. 

 

For this viewer it's too heavy handed and is unnecessary for me to understand that  Sam and Dean are trying to find that place of balance and healing. I think they are still far from it.  For me it tends to undercut the supposed growth each one of them has made in the past year to going back to " Dean loves Sam again because he took the fake one just because play!Sammy asked him too. 

 

I know I"m being rather negative about this but I think it is just one of those stupid things the show does that they think is sweet and lovely but has all kinds of unintended consequences for certain audience members like me.

[SueB]

 

He can`t fight - like, seriously, he can`t anymore - he doesn`t know stuff, he can`t work cases. Teenage girls have to save him now. He is basically incompetent.

Dean completely skewered the scarecrow and it didn't work. It only APPEARED to work for Marie because that's the exact moment Sam skewered Callopie.  So, Marie did not save Dean.  Sam saved everyone by killing the goddess.  The scarecrow could not be killed without killing her.

 

Edited November 17, 2014 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

End result for me is the same: badass!Dean nowhere in sight. Since the character has nothing else at the moment - sure, he has the MOC but they are doing jacksquat with it, compared to whenever Sam had a supernatural plot where every stinking filler was permeated by it - nothing is just not enough for me. Especially when coupled with uber-extensive Sam-shilling.

 

 

[catrox14]

Dean completely skewered the scarecrow and it didn't work. It only APPEARED to work for Marie because that's the exact moment Sam skewered Callopie.  So, Marie did not save Dean.  Sam saved everyone by killing the goddess.  The scarecrow could not be killed without killing her.

 

 For me, it's not so much that a teenage girl may or may not have saved him, it's that Dean's fighting skills were sketchy here again with no explanation. He got tossed all over the place and struggled to get back up and again the MoC is only being addressed as "well it's going to be an issue". 

[bettername2come]

Since I'm taking this episode as not much more than "Sam and Dean love each other. Supernatural loves and is overwhelmed by their fans" I'm not reading too much into the amulet. I do however, keep finding little moments that I love. The newest one: Sam stopping Dean from showing his FBI badge because the girls playing them were doing it the same way at the same time.

 

And I finally remembered what I recognized the "kick it in the ass" line from. Charlie said it when Sam told her to be Hermione. 

[DittyDotDot]

And I finally remembered what I recognized the "kick it in the ass" line from. Charlie said it when Sam told her to be Hermione. 

 

They've used it a few times. It was a phrase Kim Manners used to say quite a bit. Ellen also said it to Dean in Abandon All Hope; the tape Dean shoves into the tape deck in Swan Song was labeled "Kick it in the Ass"; and I believe Dean said it to Sam--something about figuring out how to kick it in the ass like they always do--in a late in S8 episode. It's always a welcome tribute to Mr. Manners, IMO.

 

I also noticed they were staying at Route 200 Motel in room 200. I totally missed that the first time through. They did a nice job of putting lots of little things in--I so do love playing "find the gag" in these types of episodes. Certainly makes the watching more entertaining.

Edited November 18, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

Then we get the play being orchestrated by a Sam-girl. Dean-fans? Don`t exist. Anywhere. Becky was a Sam-girl, Marie is one.

 

First, you're talking about Becky like she's a good thing which I'm pretty sure Sam would disagree with you on... especially after "Season Seven: Time For a Wedding." And second, I'm not sure that Marie even is a Sam girl. She also seems to be into Destiel enough to write a rather lovely Destiel leaning song for her play, and Destiel generally has little to do with Sam (If Sam is involved, it's generally either Wincestial or whatever it's called when Sam and Dean "share" Cas but have no contact with each other when the porn version is involved or Team Free Will fic if it's not porn). Destial should be rather boring, I would think, for a strictly Sam-girl. Just because she might consider Sam those things she said, doesn't mean she's a Sam-girl. She might favor Sam in some things, but I don't think that even would make her exclusively a "Sam-girl." If she was, she'd more likely lean toward Sasstiel (or Sassy - the lighter, non-angsty version of Sasstiel.)

 

That`s the same crap like being Bobby`s favourite vs. being the better hunter.

 

Considering the "better hunter" that Bobby was referring to was a soulless psychopath and not really regular Sam, I'm not sure how much that means. Doubly so since as we learned later, it wasn't even true, because technically Sam was a good killer, but since his version of "hunting" often also resulted in innocent bystanders being killed (which sort of negates the "saving people" part of the job description) and sometimes the monster outright escaping - quantity over quality - I wouldn't put much stock in that either. And the show made it a point to show that Bobby was incorrect about his assessment of "Sam's" abilities as well as his not even being able to tell that it wasn't really Sam.

 

I kind of get the same impression from Sam's "fangirls" on the show. They are almost caricatures of fans, since they seem more to want to change Sam - like Becky - or project mostly unrealistic things on to him, sort of like Marie. They say nebulous, mooney-eyed things; they don't necessarily know Sam. In other words, just because they are "Sam girls" doesn't mean they are a positive, "yay Sam" message about Sam. They almost seem to me like they are lightly poking fun at some fans of Sam. To me, the Dean-leaning stage director seemed to be the most grounded and on the ball character of all of them.

 

He [Dean] got tossed all over the place and struggled to get back up

 

But he got up. Sam got Sam-napped and then plastered to the wall for the who-knows-how-manyeth time. And despite killing the monster, Sam was able to do so only because he, too, got an assist from a teenage girl (and a blowsy teacher.) But that's okay with me, because it wouldn't have been a real 200th episode  tribute if Sam hadn't gotten Sam-napped. It was kind of inevitable... Which reminds me, that was an amusing moment where Sam was apparently enjoying the production enough that he missed the usual signals and gave a thumbs up instead of realizing Dean was trying to tell him that there was a monster behind him - hee. I think they need to get some new hand signals to match their code words.

[catrox14]

The difference with Sam getting kidnapped and pinned on a wall is that he saved Dean when Dean was getting a beat down in the last episode. So because that issue is current for Dean him barely getting back up is still problematic with ZERO explanation. And Deans actions didn't actually save Sam at all.

I think Marie was 100% sam-girl with her little speech to Dean "Especially my sweet, brave, selfless Sam. There’s nothing he can’t do.”

[AwesomO4000]

And I still contend that it wouldn't be as likely for a 100% Sam-girl to have much interest in Destiel. I'm not even close to a 100% Sam-girl (I'm about 60-40), and I prefer Sastiel to Destiel.* She might prefer Sam and/or find him sweeter (or misunderstand him - which seems most probable to me), but it's apparent - to me at least - from the songs she wrote, she's a whole lot into Dean as well, since two of her three songs we saw were only about Dean, and the one that wasn't was sung by Dean in Dean's point of view. That's a whole lot of Dean emphasis for a supposed 100% Sam-girl. Dean had much of the "action" in the play as well.

 

I personally think that speech was more of a shout-out to Becky, because that's more something she would say/think.

 

* (Though I've read and enjoyed both - apparently I'm slutty when it comes to fanfiction.)

 

And Deans actions didn't actually save Sam at all.

 

But he did keep Marie from getting nabbed and/or hurt until she was able to get her wits about her. He didn't hesitate to throw himself into it - which at least that is a good thing.

 

I do agree that they should hopefully soon be addressing the Mark of Cain issue and if this is somehow part of it. Then again, I didn't get early-mid season 8 completely incompetent Sam either and that never really got an explanation, so maybe I shouldn't hold my breath.

[SueB]

I loved Dean's silent eye-rolling regarding sweet selfless Sammy. Sam's got those Puppy eyes. He's just got the 'sensitive man-vibe' down pat.

It's been 6 days and I still can't get head-bobbing Dean out of my brain! Those were catchy tunes. What a terrible ear worm.

[7kstar]

I loved Dean's silent eye-rolling regarding sweet selfless Sammy. Sam's got those Puppy eyes. He's just got the 'sensitive man-vibe' down pat.

It's been 6 days and I still can't get head-bobbing Dean out of my brain! Those were catchy tunes. What a terrible ear worm.

I had to download the songs and I really find myself listening and watching them way more than I should.  Dean head-bobbing is such a great moment.  Of course since we are doing our production tomorrow, I'm a little jealous that there actors will GET OFF Script before the performance.  Oh the joys of middle school.  So I enjoyed this show in so many ways.  I agree there are issues, but right now it I'm more on cloud 9 with the show and I'm hoping I won't have to come crashing down.

 

 

I personally think that speech was more of a shout-out to Becky, because that's more something she would say/think.

 

But he did keep Marie from getting nabbed and/or hurt until she was able to get her wits about her. He didn't hesitate to throw himself into it - which at least that is a good thing.

 

I do agree that they should hopefully soon be addressing the Mark of Cain issue and if this is somehow part of it. Then again, I didn't get early-mid season 8 completely incompetent Sam either and that never really got an explanation, so maybe I shouldn't hold my breath.

Last time Dean's fighting ability got stronger after he killed someone.  They tend to go back and forth on who is incompetent depending on the nature of the plot.  But I would like this addressed.

 

As far as the Sam girl, I think that was just addressing many fanfiction writers.  Sam fans do like to write it as Dean is really helpless and only Sam can save the day.  Then they had the other give Sam advice on how he could make a good Dean by cutting his hair.  I don't think this show is meant to be taken too deep.  It was addressing all the issues that fans have gotten into heated discussions about and con issues.  I enjoyed it.

 

I also am a fan that wanted Sam to pick the amulet out of the trash can and I'm fine with him not giving it back to Dean especially until the timing is right and it wouldn't represent a burden.

 

Marie's speech was just her believing she knew the answers when in reality she doesn't really have a clue about the struggles the brother's have dealt with.  Plus she's a teenager, they know all the answers, don't you know.

[Pete Martell]

End result for me is the same: badass!Dean nowhere in sight. Since the character has nothing else at the moment - sure, he has the MOC but they are doing jacksquat with it, compared to whenever Sam had a supernatural plot where every stinking filler was permeated by it - nothing is just not enough for me. Especially when coupled with uber-extensive Sam-shilling.

 

The last supernatural plot Sam had involved him coughing up blood in MOTW episodes. Before that I think he rubbed his palm a lot.

 

I'm not sure where they're going with Dean, but I think playing up his struggles with being in the action - and not just writing it off as him being a sad sack, the way they did in season 7 - is more interesting than a generic physical trauma to keep a story padded out.

[AwesomO4000]

Watching again tonight I caught another funny bit. The Dean wig for the show is so blonde and the Sam wig dark - which is often how they are described in fanfiction - but throughout most of the episode, Sam and Dean's actual hair looks pretty similar in color. So that was another little fanfiction detail they put in there.

 

I also noticed someone dressed up as a cop this time, and I'm wondering if that was Sheriff Jodi Mills. I'm guessing they would've been doing the zombie story there - I would've liked to have seen their interpretation of that.

 

I've seen the episode a few times now, but each time I catch another little detail here and there.

[mertensia]

I liked that Dean realized Marie was stalling and was all "she's stalling. Let's get this started" to tech girl.

I'll point out that Sam's story will likely seem more romantic to teenage girls: losing his mother as a baby, being raised by his brother, going to college, living with Jess, losing Jess, etc.

[Aeryn13]

 

The last supernatural plot Sam had involved him coughing up blood in MOTW episodes. Before that I think he rubbed his palm a lot.

 

And he still managed to hunt, successfully get the kill and save the day in lots of those times. I was expecting MOC-bearing Dean to at least be a badass, that was my sole comfort after cutting his arc short after a measly three episodes again. But nope, insult to injury, he suddenly can`t hunt anymore at all. Hate it. And nothing is made of the MOC either. Absolutely squat. This would never happen with one of Sam`s plot. Ever.

 

As for Marie being a Samgirl, I think she was one, 100 %. Just as I think the writers are sending a message whenever they have a character do the Sam-shilling. Becky might have been a crazy, obsessed Sam-fan but I think the audience was supposed to go "well, Sam is so great, no wonder it happens". Same as Marie shilling Sam to the high heavens. And I don`t for a second think Bobby was supposed to be seen as wrong in his assessment of Sam as the great white hunter.

 

And the lack of Dean-shilling like that is also sending a message. He is only ever validated for being a good nursemaid/sidekick and never for being the Chosen One/IT-hero because that is how the show sees him and his purpose. They make that clear in meta-episodes like this one and non meta-ones.

 

Having no real Dean-fan-voice in this particular meta-episode kinda is its own message for me. It`s the writers saying "you are a fan of WHICH character? well, you are doing it wrong then, you aren`t supposed to be and you shouldn`t exist in the first place". Thanks a lot.

[DittyDotDot]

I also noticed someone dressed up as a cop this time, and I'm wondering if that was Sheriff Jodi Mills. I'm guessing they would've been doing the zombie story there - I would've liked to have seen their interpretation of that.

 

The stage manager did say she was understudying for Jodi Mills, so probably was her--I too wouldn't have minded seeing their version of zombies. BTW, that stage manager was all sorts of funny. I loved her deadpan unimpressedness.

[SueB]

 

Having no real Dean-fan-voice in this particular meta-episode kinda is its own message for me.

The lyrics to the three unique songs were odes to Dean.  Yes, Dean is the "narrator", again -- he's more of the LEAD of the play than Sam. Then, did you listen to those gut-wrenching lyrics of "A Single Man Tear?"  It's directly focused on the how he's a "perfect man" who doesn't see it himself.  Finally we have Cas' relationship to Dean.  About being what Dean needs.

 

Of course we don't know the emphasis on the space-tentacles second act but the first act is about the burden of life on Dean. 

 

As for the Mark of Cain plot being over, not a chance, not by a long shot. And it's been going on since "First Born" in mid Season 9. 

[Aeryn13]

 

Then, did you listen to those gut-wrenching lyrics of "A Single Man Tear?"

 

Yes, and I already said to me it was nothing really to write home about. When the words "brave, selfless, hero and nothing he can`t do" turn up, THEN we would have something. Anything beyond "brother". I said he has gotten validation for this before. And that he hides his feelings, whoop-dee-doo. It was just not the praise I think the character deserves and that I want to hear him. And I don`t think that praise will ever come because the writers don`t see him as that kind of hero. Only Sam.

 

As for being the "narrator", I have also often said how much I don`t believe and have never believed that gives someone an (equal) role in the story. At this point, I just consider it insult to injury.

 

 

As for the Mark of Cain plot being over, not a chance, not by a long shot. And it's been going on since "First Born" in mid Season 9.

 

Well, it`s still there. That`s all that happens with it. Sam`s angel possession shoehorned its way into every single filler. He started coughing up blood from the trials the episode after the trials began. And so on and so forth. I`m just sick of Dean-plots being handled in offscreenville.  

[Pete Martell]

I just wanted to thank all of you for always being so level-headed even when you didn't care for an episode. Some of the hyperbolic rage toward this episode (which I didn't even love that much) is so embarrassing (worst ever! I should have paid someone to watch this for me!! and this is from some reviewers...), it just makes me even more ashamed to be a part of fandom. There's a reason why this is one of the only places left I even feel comfortable talking about the show.

[catrox14]

The lyrics to the three unique songs were odes to Dean.  Yes, Dean is the "narrator", again -- he's more of the LEAD of the play than Sam. Then, did you listen to those gut-wrenching lyrics of "A Single Man Tear?"  It's directly focused on the how he's a "perfect man" who doesn't see it himself.  Finally we have Cas' relationship to Dean.  About being what Dean needs.

 

Of course we don't know the emphasis on the space-tentacles second act but the first act is about the burden of life on Dean. 

 

As for the Mark of Cain plot being over, not a chance, not by a long shot. And it's been going on since "First Born" in mid Season 9.

I have to say that I think Aeryn13 hit on some of the things that have bothered me about the episode and it s presentation of past! and present!Dean. It's a fair point about how Dean is admired in the play. He refers to himself as big brother Dean which is factually true but also indicative of how he sees himself in the scheme of his life through s5.

The first time I heard the Single Tear it really bugged me because I really thought it was mocking Dean for his emotions. After listening to that song more I don't think it's mocking Dean as much it is a bit of a retcon of how Sam felt/feels about Dean.

It had Sam singing about how Dean doesn't see himself the way Sam does (perfect man without sin) but that really doesn't mesh at all with how Sam has behaved towards Dean throughout most of the series save s3 and 10.

S3 was really the only time Sam put Dean's needs first but even that was sort of backseated by mystery spot which was about what losing Dean would do to Sam.

I rather agree with Aeryn13 that the things that were shown here as admiration for Dean were as a support for Sam vs admiration for Dean as hunter and person away from Sam and the family.

And that's what I can't figure out about the episode and what message it was sending about Dean.

It seemed to me that the episode was intended to be important to the boys healing their relationship because of Sam saying "what she said" even more than the amulet reappearance. If the episode is to be viewed as a one off then is that healing step to be ignored? If it's not to be ignored then I have a hard time ignoring everything else presented such as the way Dean is admired here which I do agree was as Sammy s big brother and savior with little paid to Dean the Man away from Sam.

I am having trouble with the message from this episode wrt to Dean. IMO the message wrt to Sam seems to be that Sam isn't a jerk even though he didn't look for Dean in s8 and that he really does love Dean and will help him and Sam's abilities to save people and hunt things remains as intact as ever.

Why are Dean's abilities as a badass hunter being given no light of day since he was de-demoned and why has there been no direct addressing this? And for me the vague references to Dean not being ready are totally insufficient. I need to know WHY he's not ready or is incapable now.

[Demented Daisy]

I think that this episode was written for everyone -- including those who may not have watched the show in years.  By including info that is only relevant to current events, they risked confusing and alienating people who only tuned in for this episode.

 

I think they intended it to be a stand-alone episode, unlike the 100th, IIRC.

[catrox14]

I guess I have a hard time thinking it's not part of this season with all the attention paid to the state of the boys relationship.  Sigh.

[Aeryn13]

 

It had Sam singing about how Dean doesn't see himself the way Sam does (perfect man without sin) but that really doesn't mesh at all with how Sam has behaved towards Dean throughout most of the series save s3 and 10

.

Well, that actually fit the episode title the best because that is fanfic!Sam, especially the Sam-fan fanfic where Sam is simultaneously the wounded baby bird and the most badass hunter ever whereas Dean can`t tie his own shoes. But especially how Sam feels nothing but admiration and love for Dean. Fanfic!Sam would douse himself in gasoline before saying the things that canon!Sam said in the Purge for example. The two are really nothing like each other. 

 

So, in that vain, I wouldn`t have a problem with the episode mocking that fanfic-concept. However, it`s not what they do because IMO the writers, too, believe they are writing that fanfic!Sam. And whenever canon!Sam strays too far from that, it is later summarily ignored or retconned or somehow turned around on Dean.

 

 

I think that this episode was written for everyone

 

Then I would have thought equal shilling of characters and equal represtantion of fans should have been done. As a fan of Dean, I certainly didn`t see it as a "love letter". And not everyone was in love or wanted the "Samulet" back. Maybe back on Sam since it`s named after him but that is as far as I would want it.     

Edited November 18, 2014 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I think it did fit with the author's fanfic!Sam interpretation which would be fine -ish as long as that is left in the episode and the episode is not tied in with the rest of the season. But if the amulet is still on the review mirror and Sam's words of "What She Said" about them against the world were meant to flag a shift in the relationship moving forward, then I have trouble separating this episode from everything else. I guess that remains to be seen.

[Demented Daisy]

I guess I have a hard time thinking it's not part of this season with all the attention paid to the state of the boys relationship.  Sigh.

 

That's been a focus of the show since the beginning.  Why would the 200th episode be any different?

 

I'm not trying to say that the episode has no bearing on the rest of the season -- I can't possibly say that one way or another -- but that the season doesn't have much bearing on this particular episode.  I think TPTB wanted a 200th episode that could be watched by anyone, at any time, no matter their level of involvement in the show.  I think they did a pretty good job of that.

[catrox14]

That's been a focus of the show since the beginning.  Why would the 200th episode be any different?

 

I'm not trying to say that the episode has no bearing on the rest of the season -- I can't possibly say that one way or another -- but that the season doesn't have much bearing on this particular episode.  I think TPTB wanted a 200th episode that could be watched by anyone, at any time, no matter their level of involvement in the show.  I think they did a pretty good job of that.

 

I guess I'm not being clear because after this episode I really don't know what the show is trying to say about the boys relationship and how they see each other and how they see themselves in the relationship and as individuals nor what they want me to  think about all that. 

 

Obviously the 200th was celebrating the brothers relationship and the show has really always been about the brothers but there had been a shift with Dean being more independent from Sam in s9 and Sam being more independent from Dean in s8 for better or worse.

 

S8 was supposedly showing that the boys had a really unhealthy co-dependent relationship and that Sam's choice to not look for Dean was valid and okay until it wasn't. The show took time to have Dean build relationships with Benny and Cas and that was considered okay until it wasn't . It had Sam with Amelia and that was okay until it wasn't.

 

s9 had Dean back to being unhealthily codependent to the point that we were supposed to see Dean letting an angel possess Sam as a terrible thing (and it was). We had Sam say all the stuff to Dean in the Purge about how unhealthy Dean was and then it negated that by having Sam say he lied. Dean going off on his own was ostensibly to have Dean right a wrong but was also not healthy because he ended up as a demon in his depression over his choice. But then Dean was also becoming a stronger more independent person from Sam which was okay until it wasn't.

 

So here the show takes it back to acknowledging that Sam was the most important thing in Dean's life, that the amulet represents their bond still and that they are in the fight together.  So how is it only a celebration of the boys relationship and fandom and yet not be considered meaningful to the season's arc.  I am really confused by it all.

[ohjoy]

I think TPTB wanted a 200th episode that could be watched by anyone, at any time, no matter their level of involvement in the show.

I think this is particularly true given how significant the 100th episode was wrt the mytharc. There they tried to a mytharc-heavy episode that still ended with the boys having their "us against the world" moment, but it's not an episode that people can just hop to (or back to) without any regard for what came before/after. It definitely seemed that for the 200th episode the goal was to still have the "us against the world" moment, but without significant mytharc implications that could "taint" the episode depending on how the season turns out. Not to say that there aren't any mytharc implications, but I think they wanted to have ones that weren't as game-changing as the ones in the 100th episode were.

 

As for this episode being a sign that the unhealthy co-dependency is back, I'm skeptical of that in a direct sense, but less so in an indirect sense. I don't think this is supposed to be the episode for that particular transition. However, I honestly believe that when this show does eventually end the "it's just you and me" theme that is typified in pretty much every major marking of the show is going to be a major theme at the end of its run as well. What I mean is, I don't think the show is ever going to truly and permanently get away from that "brotherly bond" element. So yes, it's always okay for them to be more independent, until it isn't. I just don't see this episode as one of those "it isn't" moments.

 

(ETA: Please feel free to tell me if I've completely misunderstood what you're getting at, or that I myself make no sense at all. I've read my comment twice and I still don't know if I'm complicating the issue or over-simplying it a bit. Brain-power's a little low today, as evidenced by the fact that I now have "Just the Two of Us" stuck in my head.)

Edited November 18, 2014 by RandomMe

[roctavia]

The play was also written from a perspective where the last few seasons hadn't happened... looking at Sam and Dean's relationship up until then... Dean's life had always been all about family. First it was finding John and getting Sam's help, and then protecting Sam. That has been the job that Dean was given by his dad and the weight that dean has carried all of this time.

 

While I have watched all of the shows (at least i think...) I can say that I haven't watched some of the middle seasons with that much attention, so i've never in depth analyzed Dean and Sam and their relationship the way some of ya'll have.... But this episode and the state of their current relationship didn't bother me... And I say that as a Dean fan.. I've always watched for Dean... I mean, Sam's alright... but the most I usually have to say about him is that he needs a haircut.

 

That said, I don't see the unfair portrayal that some keep harping on. Which is fine if other see it... it just shows that we all take different things from these shows... But.. This story, to me, has always been about Dean.... and for that to happen, it means Dean has to suffer more and make more hard decisions and be less the 'hero' because he has to do the tough thing. I don't think that makes him lesser somehow. Sure, the writers do fall back on the same things over and over, and Dean does usually shoulder more of the blame, but some of that is Dean himself- feeling like he deserves the blame or should shoulder the blame etc.

 

I'm sure that doesn't make any sense... but it is what it is, I suppose.

[Demented Daisy]

 Dean going off on his own was ostensibly to have Dean right a wrong but was also not healthy because he ended up as a demon in his depression over his choice. But then Dean was also becoming a stronger more independent person from Sam which was okay until it wasn't.

I didn't get that at all from Demon Dean, but (as a dear friend once pointed out to me) the show is art and open to interpretation.  I don't think the show is trying to tell me how I should feel about anything.  How anyone associated with the show feels about it makes no difference to my feelings.

 

Demon Dean, for example -- Jensen  and TPTB may love the story, but I hate it.  Always have, always will, and if it's over, I'm grateful.  If it's not, then I will be disappointed.  So far, I have seen nothing to change my feelings on the matter.

 

So here the show takes it back to acknowledging that Sam was the most important thing in Dean's life, that the amulet represents their bond still and that they are in the fight together.  So how is it only a celebration of the boys relationship and fandom and yet not be considered meaningful to the season's arc.  I am really confused by it all.

 

 

Again, I said that the episode may have an impact on the storyline for the season, but that the season's storyline may not impact this particular episode.  We just don't know yet.

 

ETA Affect, effect -- dammit, I'm switching it to impact because none of it looks right.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

This story, to me, has always been about Dean.... and for that to happen, it means Dean has to suffer more and make more hard decisions and be less the 'hero' because he has to do the tough thing. I don't think that makes him lesser somehow. Sure, the writers do fall back on the same things over and over, and Dean does usually shoulder more of the blame, but some of that is Dean himself- feeling like he deserves the blame or should shoulder the bla

It has been about Sam especially in the 5 seasons of Kripkes run which is reflected in the play here. Dean is the way into Sams story for the audience but that doesn't mean the story is about Dean IMO. Dean has gotten some action points but generally those were in the service of the story of Sam Winchester even Dean going to hell.

And FTR I think characterizing strong opinions and comments from either side as "harping" devalues valid if differing opinions. I don't think any harping has gone on here ever JMHO.

[AwesomO4000]

The first time I heard the Single Tear it really bugged me because I really thought it was mocking Dean for his emotions. After listening to that song more I don't think it's mocking Dean as much it is a bit of a retcon of how Sam felt/feels about Dean.

It had Sam singing about how Dean doesn't see himself the way Sam does (perfect man without sin) but that really doesn't mesh at all with how Sam has behaved towards Dean throughout most of the series save s3 and 10.

S3 was really the only time Sam put Dean's needs first but even that was sort of backseated by mystery spot which was about what losing Dean would do to Sam.

 

Taken to the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

[Pete Martell]

And he still managed to hunt, successfully get the kill and save the day in lots of those times. I was expecting MOC-bearing Dean to at least be a badass, that was my sole comfort after cutting his arc short after a measly three episodes again. But nope, insult to injury, he suddenly can`t hunt anymore at all. Hate it. And nothing is made of the MOC either. Absolutely squat. This would never happen with one of Sam`s plot. Ever.

 

Sam was mostly weak and injured up to "Pac-Man Fever," when he was suddenly capable of saving the day.

 

I don't think it's that Dean can't do these things, it's that he's afraid to do them.

[catrox14]

Sam was mostly weak and injured up to "Pac-Man Fever," when he was suddenly capable of saving the day.

I don't think it's that Dean can't do these things, it's that he's afraid to do them.

IMO that does not really help. If Dean is afraid to do be aggressive as a hunter I'm gonna need a really clear explanation out of Dean's mouth what he's afraid of. I don't want to infer anything. I'm tired of the vague references and not because I'm a dumb viewer but because it's too important to Dean's current trajectory to be left to subtext or inferences.

Edited November 19, 2014 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I assume we'll get it at some point. I tend to assume they're not just saying, "Dean sucks, Sam rocks, lol!" I know what they say about assuming. I guess we'll see.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Pete Martell

[catrox14]

I'm not saying iit's a matter of Sam rocks, Dean sucks but more of what exactly did Dean do as a demon that scares him.

If he's a murder addict and in withdrawal let us see that. If he is physically unable to fight with superior skills because the MoC is sapping his strength until he kills again explain it. If he's choosing to not kill and is fighting the desire to kill, show us. And as great an actor as Jensen is with the showing what is going on with Dean under the surface I'm not seeing that here. So to me it seems intentional to not show it. And it's really frustrating to see Dean not do well the thing he's excelled at.

[SueB]

I think we've gotten our answer (see Ask Jeeves)

[millennium]

I wish I had the willpower to never watch another new episode of Supernatural, so that "Fan Fiction" would be my closing memory of the show.   It would have been the perfect series finale, IMHO.   A distillation of the show's best elements, with all the sludge filtered out.   It didn't take itself too seriously, yet it was not a snarky send-up either.   It had class and innocence and heart.   And Sam and Dean riding off into the sunset, at peace with who they are.    Just wow.

Edited November 20, 2014 by millennium

[SueB]

I was re-watching today while doing laundry and I wanted to comment on a couple of things:

- "The Chosen One' in the song...has SPN always talked about Sam with the Chosen One arc or is that a shout-out to fandom?

- It was pointed out that Marie acknowledged Dean as THE Dean at the end when she gave him the Samulet.  I got that ...in theory...but I didn't really "get that" until I saw Dean's reaction this re-watch.  He does a double take and essentially acknowledges how she's talking to him.  Others pointed it out but this is my first time seeing it...it's the little things that make me happy.

- I don't read or write fan-fiction (I'm already obsessed enough thxuverymuch) but I WOULD if someone were to write a continuation of the Marie/Chuck conversation.  So...if it happens and those who read fanfic find it...give me a shout will 'ya? 

 

Putting this one in context with the next episode in the "All Episodes Thread" because I presume everything past this episode should be talked elsewhere.....

[mizkat]

I'm behind on my episode watching--just popping in to say I really, really, really loved this episode. Cried at the Carry On Song, because I think it not only paid homage but it also foreshadowed the ending of the series/Winchesters. What a great meta episode!

[mizkat]

I was re-watching today while doing laundry and I wanted to comment on a couple of things:

- "The Chosen One' in the song...has SPN always talked about Sam with the Chosen One arc or is that a shout-out to fandom?

 

I think it was both, whether intentional or not. Sam was supposed to be the main character (Jared's billed first, the boys were often referred to as Sam and Dean) but shortly after the show started it was clear, IMO, who the more interesting character is. Jensen had the foresight to see that when he said he'd rather play Dean than Sam. Sam has turned into a blank template for whatever plot of the episode/season he needs to be, but Dean, at his core, has remained the same, despite his various transformations. 

[GirlyGeek]

Popping in here because I'm completing my all Seasons rematch by re-watching S10.  I am just starting this episode and looking forward to it!

But, I have to say that watching the girls putting on the play in the first act has me cracking up.  My teenager goes to a charter school that's kinda artsy and really encourages everyone to 'be yourself' and he *loves* it there.  Literally, at halloween Castiel was one of the main costumes.
And, I can walk down their hallways and see a project on the wall by some teenager about 'fandom in Supernatural vs Vampire Diaries'.  Or, like the other day, some teenage girls project was an art project about Destiel.  Seriously.

So, all that to say that some school girls putting on a Supernatural play has become so much more likely in my world, lol

[FlickChick]

GirlyGeek, loved reading that! It's so wonderful when teens are encouraged to be the very best of themselves. Embrace their own likes and dislikes, and when they love something, show it!