S06.E07: These Are The Times We Live In

[Eeksquire]

But that's why their individual attorneys should be there - the mediator even referred to their attorneys.  Television "law" is utterly ridiculous.

[annlaw78]

 

But that's why their individual attorneys should be there - the mediator even referred to their attorneys.  Television "law" is utterly ridiculous.

Hey, the show saved paying two more extras to play lawyers!

 

 

I totally agree.  The reality is that Joel's gesture was very sweet, but extremely farfetched.  He and Julia don't appear to have any major assets aside from the house, so if he simply gave it up, it would probably leave him in real financial trouble.

And, query whether Julia's new lawyer gig is as remunerative as her last one, where I think she was on partner track.  It seems like she was well and truly black-balled b/c of the botched discovery -- hard to imagine she was able to negotiate as nice a compensation package as she had a couple of seasons ago.  As far as I can tell, Joel has had one client and one job since rejoining the workforce.  How they can afford between them to keep the house, and Joel's three-bedroom bachelor pad is beyond me.  Of course, I always thought Julia and Joel's house was way unrealistic for a 10-year attorney in the Bay Area to have. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by annlaw78

[CMH1981]

Well since this show is Braverman-sided, once again we know nothing about Joel's family really, just like we never saw nor heard from Kristina's family during the cancer storyline.  I just mean for all we know Joel has and comes from money in his family, that's the easiest way to explain away stuff like that.  I would think they would had to have money stashed away for when Joel was the stay at home dad for the way they lived and all that.  

 

The fact that Joel didn't swing for fancy new furniture and all that, i'm excluding big expensive electronics b/c well...he's a guy, I think goes to show that he thought eventually he and Julia would work things out and he would move back in.  Of course that opens up the reason as to if that is what he thought and felt, why did he choose to move out in the first place.  The storyline has holes in it like swiss cheese.

[MelineB13]

 

Nora took the car keys. She packed them into a little suitcase with play food or something. About 13 minutes into the show.

Aha! I must have missed that while furiously dabbing at my eyes after the Joel/Julia/Elevator scene.  I stand corrected. 

[camom]

 

I can't imagine there was no one else to watch Nora while Amber took Max to the prison.

 

It would be good practice for when she has to go visit Max in prison.  That boy is going to do something very wrong someday, and his parents are going to expect the victims/courts to pat him on the head and send him on his way.  They will be shocked when he is expected to take responsibility for his actions.

[CheersEnthusiast]

It would be good practice for when she has to go visit Max in prison.  That boy is going to do something very wrong someday, and his parents are going to expect the victims/courts to pat him on the head and send him on his way.  They will be shocked when he is expected to take responsibility for his actions.

 

Wow.  Really I think that's going too far.  I think Max will just grow into the common garden variety...ummm..."difficult" person.  People who act like Max really aren't that uncommon nowadays, at least not where I live.  

[alexvillage]

 

It would be good practice for when she has to go visit Max in prison.  That boy is going to do something very wrong someday, and his parents are going to expect the victims/courts to pat him on the head and send him on his way.  They will be shocked when he is expected to take responsibility for his actions.

Please, don't even joke about this. Katims might just like the idea and the way the media immediately diagnoses all mass murderers or homegrown terrorists and Autistics, this is too real to even laugh at. 

[camom]

I wasn't meaning to imply that Max would become a criminal due to his being on the autism spectrum.  It's the lack of decent parenting that is the problem.  

[CheersEnthusiast]

I wasn't meaning to imply that Max would become a criminal due to his being on the autism spectrum.  It's the lack of decent parenting that is the problem.  

 

NM.  The reply function is everyone's friend.  Please use it when you can to avoid misunderstandings.

Edited November 10, 2014 by CheersEnthusiast

[alexvillage]

"I wasn't meaning to imply that Max would become a criminal due to his being on the autism spectrum.  It's the lack of decent parenting that is the problem."

 

 

I know you weren't. It is still scary. I have friends who have been called "potential mass murderers" because of their neurology.

I also did not mean to police posts. The reason I stuck with this show is, in part, a duty I feel to make sure the information - for the ones who don't have experience with autism/Autistics - is given properly, something Katims doesn't do. As I said, I pretty much repeat what Autistics themselves say, so I keep saying what I say.

My Autistic friend and roommate does not like the show but watches sometimes and she does read what I post.

 

And I will repeat that I am very pleased that most, if not all, here do understand the difference between autism and bravermanism/bad parenting

Edited November 10, 2014 by alexvillage

[Eeksquire]

 

And I will repeat that I am very pleased that most, if not all, here do understand the difference between autism and bravermanism/bad parenting

Sadly (for the show), the character of Max, as well as the Adam/Kristina branch of the Braverman family were a LOT MORE INTERESTING when they were addressing his diagnosis in a more constructive way.  Not only with Gabby, but I also remember the Halloween episode (when the scary house had torches and Max was afraid of fire, but he went with his cousins and came away with some kind of bug ring) as being a standout that Adam and Kristina trusted Max to know his own limits and push himself a little.  Now all they do is cover up for his inappropriate behavior and point the finger anywhere else.  It's both infuriating and boring.

[alexvillage]

 

Not only with Gabby,

I liked what you said but not this part because I am adamantly against ABA because it is training into compliance. But yes, at least it showed that they were looking for approaches instead of just giving up on parenting

[jb1183]

The narrative that Drew was being selfish for wanting to make his academic responsibilities top priority over field trips with his grandfather that could easily wait a few days is so obnoxious. Time and again the show seems to want us to see Zeek as some wise patriarch when mostly I just see a self centered and immature prick. Natalie is such a sucky and unsupportive girlfriend, just like we all knew she would be. I hate that the message seemed to be blow off your studies because Grandpa wants to go shoot cans. A truly loving and thoughtful grandfather would know that education has to come first and not make a demand that his grandson give up most of a day's worth of study time to cater to his whims. So annoying and stupid!  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That's exactly my issue with Zeek. It's great if he wants to spend time with Drew or any of his other family members. He just can't expect them to drop whatever they're doing because he gets a wild hair up his ass about something fun to do today. People have jobs and responsibilities, which you'd think Zeek would remember from his days in the military, as a father, and as a man who used to have some kind of job before retiring. If he had called Zeek and said, "Grandson, there is something really important I want to share with you. Are you free on Saturday?" then I would have been totally fine with it. But instead he called Drew twice over the course of three days and demanded that Drew come pick him up immediately without telling him why (the first time Drew thought he had a doctor's appointment that no one else could take him to).

 

Do you really want your grandkid to blow an entire semester's worth of tuition and flunk a class that's required for his major because you couldn't wait a few days to go to some burger place? If you truly love someone, then you want what is best for them, you know, like being a responsible student who finishes his college degree in a timely manner. Demanding that they be at your beck and call 24/7 is just selfish and inconsiderate. But that's par for the course with Zeek. He loves his family but everything has to be his way.

[politichick]

Hey, the show saved paying two more extras to play lawyers!

 

And, query whether Julia's new lawyer gig is as remunerative as her last one, where I think she was on partner track.  It seems like she was well and truly black-balled b/c of the botched discovery -- hard to imagine she was able to negotiate as nice a compensation package as she had a couple of seasons ago.  As far as I can tell, Joel has had one client and one job since rejoining the workforce.  How they can afford between them to keep the house, and Joel's three-bedroom bachelor pad is beyond me.  Of course, I always thought Julia and Joel's house was way unrealistic for a 10-year attorney in the Bay Area to have. 

The house that Julia and Joel bought is very different from the one they now have IN THAT I am sure that Joel, given his field, was able to do the kinds of wonderful dream renovations we all wish our husbands had the gift to make and probably needed just a small crew (probably of friends in the field) for a few of the jobs. Also, of all the Bravermans, except Adam, I am quite confident that Julia and Joel saved money even while he was a stay at home dad. Her loss of income always seemed like it was more of a blow to her ego than their income. And while she may not be making the same kind of dough as before, she is an attorney and not working at a legal aid type place, so is probably doing pretty well for herself. Also, they've had that house for at least 10 years and probably made a good downpayment even if they didn't have furniture when they first moved in.

 

God, why am I talking about them like they are real people?

[Latverian Diplomat]

But isn't Ruby in High School? In 2014? To me it showed exactly how out of touch her mother was, to think that this movie (on TV, no less) would be "inappropriate" for her. Unfortunately I don't think that was the show's intention. It appeared to be saying "Lorelei/Sarah is such a permissive parent and THAT'S why her daughter is pregnant out of wedlock." BLARGH.

The really unusual thing about Fast Times compared to similar movies is that it presents abortion positively. Given Stacy's circumstances, her choice to have one is treated as sensible and responsible and her brother is supportive and kind about it.  

 

I don't think we are supposed to think that is the source of Sandy's objection, but it does make me think that maybe Sarah and Amber should have watched it together a few more times back in the day :-)

[Hanahope]

I didn't get Sandy's complaint that Fast Times "glorifies underage sex".  If anything, it showed how it was not great/satisfying, had pretty big consequences, and really wouldn't automatically lead to happiness.  Its actually not a bad message to give to teenagers, especially with many starting to have sex pretty young.  And its not like there was any nudity beyond women, and I assume Ruby has seen her own naked body, no real surprises there.

 

Agreed that it seemed pretty ridiculous for Joel and Julia to discuss how to handle the house as the "last thing."  That's usually one of the first couple of things along with alimony and child support.  And while I agree that it was ridiculous that neither of them had an attorney there, though I will agree that if the party's agree, on how to split something, the mediator (or a joint attorney if sharing), may not suggest anything different.  I made a pretty stupid agreement with my ex about the house when we divorced and our joint attorney (no other assets, no kids, no contest divorce) didn't provide any advice. 

 

Also, it seems pretty far fetched that Joel is just now deciding he wants to fight for Julia.  I thought for sure after last season when he had his "realization" with his client (Penny from Lost), he'd go back to Julia and say, I've been a total jerk, lets try again.  But apparently he did nothing for the next 6-7 months?  And now he wants to try after Julia has clearly given up all hope and moved on?  Not to mention all the money they paid to divorce attorneys.  Totally not fair to Julia.  Course, I still think it was incredibly unrealistic for the writers to have had Joel move out so soon in the first place.

 

That must have been some long trip to Sacramento from Berkley for Adam and Christina.  I had to laugh that Amber thought the minivan was so 'high-tech' that it would start without keys.  Also, what was the "clicky-clicky" thing she was talking about that fit into the car seat?  In my experience (my youngest is 7, so hasn't been in that kind of car seat for about 3 years or so) they just buckled in with the seat belt.  If you have the extra ring on the car floor, you can use it, but its not required.  Does Amber's car not have seat belts? 

 

Yeah, Zeke, asshole.  Its really no wonder the Bravermans are who they are given Zeke.

I would have thought Amber would take the kids to the zoo, not Alcatraz.  I mean for Nora, really?  My 7 year old would be bored.

[albaniantv]

Great show, winding down. 

 

I think most of these behaviors that so annoy many of you are just conflicts that tv writers are paid to fill the scripts with so we don't get bored. If Max were better behaved, Zeke was not self-centered, Joel and Julia were happy again already, Amber was able to manage two kids of vastly differing ages and temperaments and handle her first pregnancy all at the same time and Adam could help someone out without condescending, what would there be to keep us watching for an hour?

 

One of the things I have noticed on discussion boards is how vehemently viewers are when they write in about kids' behavior. I noticed it on old Party of Five shows, then Brothers and Sisters and now on Homeland, the Americans and Parenthood. Especially about teenagers. I don't know about you all, but I was an ungracious, awkward, angry, isolating, rude kinda teen and so were many of my friends. Unlike the perfect teens and preteens on tv then, I think I like reality better. I realize I am over-simplifying.

[formerlyfreedom]

I didn't get Sandy's complaint that Fast Times "glorifies underage sex".

Yeah, that sounded like what someone who was the parent of a teenager when the movie came out would have said, not someone who WAS a teenager when it came out would actually say.

 

That must have been some long trip to Sacramento from Berkley for Adam and Christina.  I had to laugh that Amber thought the minivan was so 'high-tech' that it would start without keys.

See, my dad has a fancy new truck that doesn't need a key, just a fancy doohickey in the general proximity, and you push a button to start the vehicle. So I could buy that it was one of those vehicles that needs the fancy doohickey, and she thought it was somewhere on her person. Dad still calls it the key, and the first time I borrowed the truck, I spent about ten minutes figuring out how the hell to drive the thing (no gear shift either, it's a dial on the dash. I drive a 93 Toyota Corolla, so this is all 'from the future' for me).

[seamusk]

(and I'm going to ignore that neither of them had their own lawyer with them because also: No)

 

Not correct.  You do not need, or necessarily even want, lawyers at a mediation session.  A lot of people do mediation, as an alternative to the more formal processes involving lawyers, and it's completely normal to do it without attorney's present.  That's how my ex and I did it. I was happy with the process, though the result was definitely more fair to her. 

I thought it was silly when Joel apologizes for his lack of furniture and then says he figures he should buy some stuff now. Uh, how about picking a few things out of the houseful of furniture that is half yours? Surely, Julia can spare a chair.

I do agree that Joel should have been more intent on getting something out of their house.  But it's pretty clear he was happy to let her have the house, and presumably including the furniture, if that meant it stayed with the "family".  Though he'd obviously rather be part of that family.  

 

I totally agree.  The reality is that Joel's gesture was very sweet, but extremely farfetched.  He and Julia don't appear to have any major assets aside from the house, so if he simply gave it up, it would probably leave him in real financial trouble. 

 

My impression is that they have done quite well for themselves.  Julia made good money at her job, but also Joel's construction job was no small thing.  That was a big money maker.  They can afford to cover a separate apartment for a while and they certainly could afford new furniture if necessary. 

Agreed that it seemed pretty ridiculous for Joel and Julia to discuss how to handle the house as the "last thing."  That's usually one of the first couple of things along with alimony and child support.  And while I agree that it was ridiculous that neither of them had an attorney there, though I will agree that if the party's agree, on how to split something, the mediator (or a joint attorney if sharing), may not suggest anything different.  I made a pretty stupid agreement with my ex about the house when we divorced and our joint attorney (no other assets, no kids, no contest divorce) didn't provide any advice. 

 

I do agree that the house might have come up sooner.  But I'm not so sure.  The first thing our mediator did was to identify all of the wealth and all of the debt, from credit cards to the house.  The house was a sort of big dispute and I may be wrong but I though that came up later.  In a lot of ways, that makes it easier.  Now that all of the cards are on the table, it's easier to know what can be added/shifted to help negotiate the house terms.  You know, once you are done debating your separate appraisals.

One of the things I have noticed on discussion boards is how vehemently viewers are when they write in about kids' behavior. I noticed it on old Party of Five shows, then Brothers and Sisters and now on Homeland, the Americans and Parenthood. Especially about teenagers. I don't know about you all, but I was an ungracious, awkward, angry, isolating, rude kinda teen and so were many of my friends. Unlike the perfect teens and preteens on tv then, I think I like reality better. I realize I am over-simplifying.

This a million times over.  Folks seem to get upset that characters don't make better choices, but that's what makes a character more believable, and to some degree, depending on the choices involved obviously, more likable to me.

I really, really love this show.  I'm sad to see it go.  I mean, it's utterly ridiculous and not very realistic with the things that happen. But a lot of the emotional outflow is believable and I won't lie - this show is emotional therapy for me.  I get my good cry out every time.

 

See, my dad has a fancy new truck that doesn't need a key, just a fancy doohickey in the general proximity, and you push a button to start the vehicle. So I could buy that it was one of those vehicles that needs the fancy doohickey, and she thought it was somewhere on her person. Dad still calls it the key, and the first time I borrowed the truck, I spent about ten minutes figuring out how the hell to drive the thing (no gear shift either, it's a dial on the dash. I drive a 93 Toyota Corolla, so this is all 'from the future' for me).

Sometimes the doohickey is in fact also a key. Or, to be more accurate, there is a key embedded in the doohickey that you can actually use in case, for example, the battery on the doohickey dies.  Though my girlfriend's car wouldn't run without a battery in the doohickey so clearly implementation varies.

I did think that there was no stroller issue here.  It was probably in the trunk of the minivan.  And, I also don't think it matters that the toddler would not have enjoyed Alcatraz.  It's very likely that the trip was conceived as an experience for Max who clearly was excited.  And you can't just leave the toddler at home alone. Or at least I don't think your typical baby sitter envisions sub-contracting out some of their work in that situation. 

[Cattitude]

 But that's par for the course with Zeek. He loves his family but everything has to be his way.

 

Well that explains Julia to me then, she's like her father.LOL

[cam3150]

Max is so far out of the range of kids I work with who have Asperger's that I stifle the need to throw things at my television. Good lord. We're dealing with a pre-teen at work now (granted, he has autism), who is becoming out of control as his hormones are creeping into his sweet little body - getting aggressive, more frustrated, etc. I usually tell parents of kids on the spectrum, "One day he's going to be 16 years old and 160 pounds, so you need to get the behavior under control while you can still pick him up to discipline him."

 

The most amusing part of the episode was Amber holding on to her belly, lest her baby fall out of her - what? Vagina? Belly button? Cracked me up, especially since someone mentioned it on another thread last week.

 

If I were Drew, I'd dump Grandpa and Girlfriend. "Who cares that you're paying good money for your schooling and you have important exams? For God's sake, Drew, blow it off - G-pa might croak tomorrow! Go shooting! You'll have no good memories of him if you DON'T DO THIS!"

 

I always root for Joel and Julia, my favorite two and the least bizarre of all the family members, and I'm really glad boyfriend left before Joel got there. It would have broken my heart if he went back to declare his love to Julia, only to have her open the door with post-sex hair. And what's with her hair still looking like crap one season later?

So many pregnant women do this and it drives me crazy. Why the constant holding of your stomach? It's not going anywhere.  Also, wasn't it just 2 episodes ago that Amber told the cute tech guy about her pregnancy and he said something about not being able to tell -- and it was not obvious that point.  She went from just finding out she was pregnant and barely showing to having a 6 month belly in 2 episiodes. Was there a large time jump that I missed? 

 

Also, didn't realize that Joel and Julia have been seperated for a year in show time.  Their scenes killed me. I rarely cry at a TV Show but I got really teary during all of their scenes tonight. I am really pulling for them. Beyond Julia kissing the Dad from school, I barely remember why they are not togeher other than Joel just being stubborn.

[Eeksquire]

 

Was there a large time jump that I missed?

Yup, although if you blinked it (or missed the first few seconds of the show), you would have missed the title card after the "previouslies" that said "3 months later…"

 

I think that's a bit cheap of the show, honestly.  Other shows that time jump seem to do it more organically than a title card.

[Mittengirl]

Since the show jumped 3 months, shouldn't it be close to Christmas about now? The season started with Snowflake Academy opening, which would be around September 1, then at least a few weeks passed before the jump. So now it should be mid-December. What kind of parent finalizes their divorce, and presumably tells their kids, right before Christmas? Or would they not tell the kids? Which also doesn't seem right to me.

[Inquisitionist]

Since the show jumped 3 months, shouldn't it be close to Christmas about now? The season started with Snowflake Academy opening, which would be around September 1, then at least a few weeks passed before the jump. So now it should be mid-December.

 

Good point, but it may actually be after Christmas now.  There were 5 episodes pre-jump, which I would think covered more than a month.  But who knows with this show?

[Mittengirl]

I had assumed that Drew was studying for fall semester finals, but who the hell knows?

[film noire]

 

 

I loved the fact that he was eating crap and watching Chuckie movies

I did too -- his fury over the rules not being followed + complete self indulgence cracked me up. It's also the first time I've ever liked the character, and got a real sense of his tightly wound frustration in terms of the inconsistent, bizarre parenting in his life. Rules some days, no rules other -- fuck it, gonna watch forbidden movies and eat crap from every box I can get my hands on.

Edited November 16, 2014 by film noire

[takalotti]

I liked what you said but not this part because I am adamantly against ABA because it is training into compliance. But yes, at least it showed that they were looking for approaches instead of just giving up on parenting

I absolutely think the Bravermans have needed (and still need) another Gabby, though not for Max. I know nothing about raising a child on the Autism spectrum, but all along I thought Gabby needed to be working with Adam and Kristina to teach them how to change the way they communicate with Max. But no, the writers had Gabby say that Max was ready for mainstreaming, which apparently in TV world means no one in the family needs to work on themselves anymore.

Also, what was the "clicky-clicky" thing she was talking about that fit into the car seat?  In my experience (my youngest is 7, so hasn't been in that kind of car seat for about 3 years or so) they just buckled in with the seat belt.  If you have the extra ring on the car floor, you can use it, but its not required.  Does Amber's car not have seat belts? 

This bugged me so much. Amber is referring to the LATCH system, which is a standardized system of installing a car seat in a car (relatively new, starting around 2000 I think). Compatible cars have these sturdy metal anchors in the backseat (in that crack at the base of the seat back) and nowadays car seats have these clamps that attach to the anchors (often making a click sound). I'm pretty sure there are several benefits to the LATCH system over using seat belts (better chance of correct installation, more secure, less likely to install in an improper location in the car).

HOWEVER!!!

Every car seat with LATCH clamps that I've seen also has the necessary loops and slots and whatnot for a good old fashioned seat belt installation. Why? Because not all cars have the LATCH anchors, especially if it's from before 2000, and people still drive and buy these cars AND have babies (imagine that). Amber acting like Nora's car seat would not be able to be installed in her car was completely bogus* as was the implication that she would need a new car because of this. Would it be good for her to get a generally safer car? Sure, but it's not a requirement, and certainly not for car seat needs.

* Though I will say that for Nora's safety, I would not want her to ride in a car seat that inexperienced Amber installed in a mad rush and under the stress of a Max tantrum.

I did too -- his fury over the rules not being followed + complete self indulgence cracked me up. It's also the first time I've ever liked the character, and got a real sense of his tightly wound frustration in terms of the inconsistent, bizarre parenting in his life. Rules some days, no rules other -- fuck it, gonna watch forbidden movies and eat crap from every box I can get my hands on.

Lol, reading it put this way, I wonder if Max considered busting out some bongos in the middle of the night (any fellow Big Bang Theory fans out there?).

[alexvillage]

 

I absolutely think the Bravermans have needed (and still need) another Gabby, though not for Max. I know nothing about raising a child on the Autism spectrum, but all along I thought Gabby needed to be working with Adam and Kristina to teach them how to change the way they communicate with Max. But no, the writers had Gabby say that Max was ready for mainstreaming, which apparently in TV world means no one in the family needs to work on themselves anymore.

Max absolutely needs supports. Not ABA. There are other forms of supports. But then again, ABA is part of Katims agenda, so there is that.

[LakeLover]

I've used ABA when kids were little, to get compliance, attention, and the understanding that there's a time to do what they want, and a time to learn. ABA is not appropriate, however, for a child Max's age looking, speaking, and acting like he does, but he needs some good speech therapy with peers to understand that he cannot talk about what he wants all the time, and that there are appropriate ways to speak to peers that are different than what we say to adults. A little behavioral therapy wouldn't hurt, either, and yes, his parents needs some as well. Max is a smart cookie - he can learn all this. I just did an evaluation and wrote goals for a child that would help Max, too :)

[MaryPatShelby]

Amber babysitting would be easier if it was just a normal couple of days, not a trip on the ferry to Alcatraz. That was a stupid plan. Why not stay close to home?

And why on earth would you take a child Nora's age to Alcatraz? It didn't even look like they were taking a stroller.

 

Edited because I see this has already been covered. I anxiously posted because, as another commenter said,  "I so cannot wait to call this BS out on the boards and/or see who brings the snark about THIS..."

 

Also, what did I miss about Zeke (I just hate the spelling ZEEK) and Drew's first shooting trip? Why would Zeke think it's appropriate to shoot at cans in a public parking lot in the city?

Edited November 26, 2014 by buffylew

[mythoughtis]

On 11/12/2014 at 3:08 PM, Hanahope said:

Also, it seems pretty far fetched that Joel is just now deciding he wants to fight for Julia.  I thought for sure after last season when he had his "realization" with his client (Penny from Lost), he'd go back to Julia and say, I've been a total jerk, lets try again.  But apparently he did nothing for the next 6-7 months?  And now he wants to try after Julia has clearly given up all hope and moved on?  Not to mention all the money they paid to divorce attorneys.  Totally not fair to Julia.  Course, I still think it was incredibly unrealistic for the writers to have had Joel move out so soon in the first place.

This. As near as I can tell, the only counseling that happened was how to deal with the kids questions. Joel made it plain all last season that he did not want to work on the marriage. This season he tried to kiss Julia, but until tonight never said ‘I want to come back’.   How was moving out and never trying to discuss anything fighting for his marriage? How long as Julia supposed to sit there and wait for him to show up like he did at the end of this episode? 

Edited July 24, 2018 by mythoughtis