S06.E10: Caged Heat

[Guest]

Meg kidnaps Sam and Dean and tries to force them to tell her where Crowley is hiding. Sam makes her a deal - they will help her find Crowley if she promises to torture him for information about how to get Sam's soul back. Castiel joins the fight but finds it difficult to work with Meg.

 

 

[DittyDotDot]

Another S6 episode that comes in at meh for me. It does have quite a bit of Grampy Campbell in it, after all. I do like the idea of Meg on the run and Crowley trying to hunt down all the Lucifer loyalists, but that's not what this episode is really about, so whatever, right?

 

It's nice to see Cass again, but I'm not sure how I feel about the pizza man stuff, though. On the one hand, I find Cass watching porn somewhat amusing, but not sure what it has to do with anything, either. And the whole scene with Cass and Meg making out while hellhounds were coming to get them seemed a bit odd to me. I also have never really been excited by the way they portray torture on this show. While it doesn't offend me, per se, I'm just always disappointed they don't seem to understand that torture isn't just physical abuse. Plus, I will never understand why only female demons get stripped and tied down to a super-special table to be tortured, but male ones get to sit fully clothed while tied to a chair. I'm really glad we haven't seen that demon torture table for a very long time.

 

But, I think the big fail, for me, is Grampy Campbell  working for Crowley so he'll bring Mary back. That part just doesn't make sense to me. It would have made far more sense to me if Crowley threatened torturing Mary in her afterlife to get Grampy to work for him. I just don't know what Grampy thought he was gonna tell Mary when she got resurrected, "sorry to take you away from your afterlife, but I just wanted you to be alive and I killed your sons to make it happen"? Sorry, that's probably too much said about this stupid plotline anyway.

 

The good to end on: I do find Sam to be very unsettling throughout most of the episode. From the way he threatens Cass to the way he bites his own arm to make that devil's trap. It's disturbing--as it should be--and I'm starting to see the real need to solve this soulless problem. Dean's right, Sam's basically a replicant. And, I love Dean throughout the episode. I love how he's had it at the beginning of the episode and doesn't want to work for Crowley anymore. I love how he is skeptical of what Sam is doing working with Meg. I love how he is just resolved in knowing Sam needs his soul and anything else they'll figure a way to deal with. And, I absolutely love how he tells Grampy Campbell that he's gonna kill him. I want Grampy Campbell dead, dead, dead!

 

So, maybe not their worst one, but not exactly a good one either, IMO.

[Demented Daisy]

I never understood Gramps wanting to bring Mary back, either.  His wife, maybe.  That would have made at least a little sense, if they hadn't been in the afterlife together.  Unless we're supposed to think that Mary is in Hell and Gramps is trying to save her.  *shrug*

 

Not to mention, if someone sacrificed my child to bring me back to life?  Dead.  Deader than dead.  Wishing he was dead.  

[rue721]

The good to end on: I do find Sam to be very unsettling throughout most of the episode. From the way he threatens Cass to the way he bites his own arm to make that devil's trap. It's disturbing--as it should be--and I'm starting to see the real need to solve this soulless problem. Dean's right, Sam's basically a replicant.

 

I agree with basically your whole post, and especially agree that the arm-biting was NUTS. I just watched this episode last night, for the first time since it was broadcast, and I had no idea what Soulless Sam was doing until I actually saw the devil's trap. When he started grinning at the demons with blood all over his teeth?! DAMN. SSam is scary as hell but I have to say that I understand why you'd want him on your team. For all his faults, at least he's clever! I also liked how SSam didn't even care about his own pain or injuries, just like he didn't care about anyone else's -- it made him seem like he wasn't just a cold-blooded mofo, he really didn't even seem human.

 

Also, I think that the part of SSam is right in JP's wheelhouse, I really enjoyed him in that role. I've always liked when Sam is sarcastic or cutting or tough-minded (Mystery Spot is still a favorite episode of mine), because I think JP pulls that off well. I totally bought his callousness as SSam in a way that I don't usually buy it when he has to show a lot of emotion or caring (as regular!Sam). Not that I don't like the *idea* of Sam being a kind person or soft or anything, I like the *idea* and can buy it about the character, but I think it's not something that JP conveys especially well.

 

I never understood Gramps wanting to bring Mary back, either.  His wife, maybe.  That would have made at least a little sense, if they hadn't been in the afterlife together.  Unless we're supposed to think that Mary is in Hell and Gramps is trying to save her.  *shrug*

 

I agree. What I thought was especially dumb about Gramps's plan was that Mary had already proven that she'd be willing to make a deal to bring a loved one back (when YED killed John back in '73), so if Gramps got both her sons killed bringing her back, what would stop her from just making another deal and damning herself to bring them (and possibly even John) back again? Even if Gramps didn't know about that deal with YED beforehand, why didn't Dean tell him about it when they had that confrontation when Dean was locked up?

 

That confrontation was intense, I liked the acting during it and even the idea of it a lot (it was my favorite part of the episode, aside from Sam's creepy ass devil's trap), but I felt like Dean was kind of OOC. While SSam was coming up with a really clever practical/concrete idea (i.e., the bloody devil's trap), I think that Dean should have been coming up with a really clever angle to play with Sam Campbell -- that would have been more in-character for him and more interesting story-wise, imo.

 

The other thing I liked in this episode was the confrontation with Crowley, because I thought he seemed legitimately scary and smart for once. He usually seems like such a loser, I just can't get into it, but back in this episode (and imo the one with the skinwalker dog), he seems to still have some teeth.

 

ETA:

Imo it would have been more in-character of Dean to come up with a "really clever *angle*" not a "really clever angel." Good luck coming up with a clever angel on this show, I def wouldn't expect Dean to be able to do *that.*

Edited December 1, 2014 by rue721

[Goldmoon]

How high was that ceiling anyway and what did Sam stand on?  I know he's tall, but I thought he wasn't THAT tall.

[Dobian]

I agree with some of Ditty's points.  Grampy Campbell has a lot of splaining to do if he kills Sam and Dean to get Mary back.  Plus the fact that he doesn't seem to care that he would be murdering the two most important things in the world to her.  So big plot fail.

Did Cass get his angel-killing dagger back from Meg?  That's not good.

Crowley, I started missing you the moment you turned to dust.

Another conceit of this show is when Sam and Dean cut themselves so they can draw demon traps and angel repellents with their blood.  Do you see how big those things are and how much blood they require?  We're talking a quart can of paint here.  You'd need to slice an artery and follow up with a trip to the ER.  And then they show Sam chewing through his arm to get a big enough gash to pump out all that red stuff?  Suspending the disbelief now.

[DittyDotDot]

16 hours ago, Dobian said:

Another conceit of this show is when Sam and Dean cut themselves so they can draw demon traps and angel repellents with their blood.  Do you see how big those things are and how much blood they require?  We're talking a quart can of paint here.  You'd need to slice an artery and follow up with a trip to the ER.  And then they show Sam chewing through his arm to get a big enough gash to pump out all that red stuff?  Suspending the disbelief now.

::Snort:: I have a whole theory involving brain damage due to all the times they've taken blows to the head...really helps with some of the WTF plotlines sometimes. Suspending disbelief is a good way to go. ;)

[catrox14]

21 hours ago, Dobian said:

I agree with some of Ditty's points.  Grampy Campbell has a lot of splaining to do if he kills Sam and Dean to get Mary back.  Plus the fact that he doesn't seem to care that he would be murdering the two most important things in the world to her.  So big plot fail.

Did Cass get his angel-killing dagger back from Meg?  That's not good.

Crowley, I started missing you the moment you turned to dust.

Another conceit of this show is when Sam and Dean cut themselves so they can draw demon traps and angel repellents with their blood.  Do you see how big those things are and how much blood they require?  We're talking a quart can of paint here.  You'd need to slice an artery and follow up with a trip to the ER.  And then they show Sam chewing through his arm to get a big enough gash to pump out all that red stuff?  Suspending the disbelief now.

My head!canon has been that the sigils aren't really that big and don't really require that much blood but because it's TV we have to see it for DRAMA

[Diane]

Sam is so creepy biting his arm, then smiling with blood all over his teeth.  Love Meg, Clarence and the pizza man. Such fun!

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, Diane said:

Sam is so creepy biting his arm, then smiling with blood all over his teeth. 

I think this is the episode where I realized Dean was right in that Soulless Sam is a serious problem to be dealt with. He just got colder and creepier as the episode went on.

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think this is the episode where I realized Dean was right in that Soulless Sam is a serious problem to be dealt with. He just got colder and creepier as the episode went on.

I agree, Sam was so dang creepy and Jared did a great job with the acting. Also Papa Campbell is for here on out Dead to me, no redemption ever.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Diane said:

I agree, Sam was so dang creepy and Jared did a great job with the acting. Also Papa Campbell is for here on out Dead to me, no redemption ever.

As you can tell by my constant commentary during my last re-watch, he makes so little sense to me, even before this episode.

[Diane]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

As you can tell by my constant commentary during my last re-watch, he makes so little sense to me, even before this episode.

I know, I agree, he was a poorly written character at least in my opinion.  We could have had just as good of a story without bringing Papa Campbell and the others in. JMO though.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, Diane said:

I know, I agree, he was a poorly written character at least in my opinion.  We could have had just as good of a story without bringing Papa Campbell and the others in. JMO though.

Or just given him some motivations that made sense. Killing your grandsons in order to bring back your daughter just doesn't make any sense. What was he going to tell Mary when she was back, "I saved you by killing your sons, how much do you love me now?"

[Diane]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or just given him some motivations that made sense. Killing your grandsons in order to bring back your daughter just doesn't make any sense. What was he going to tell Mary when she was back, "I saved you by killing your sons, how much do you love me now?"

I agree, it was a whole other level of crazy and just didn't make sense. 

[Hanahope]

Agree that Grampa trying to bring Mary back is a bit stupid especially if it costs her sons lives.  

Meg was better at least, but trusting demons is never good.

Ah Crowley. :(

[bettername2come]

Dean turning around while complaining about Crowley made me think Crowley would appear, so nice touch making Sam disappear instead. Brunette Meg really does have some of Blonde Meg's mannerisms this ep. Still my least favorite Meg. Okay, so I answered my question from several episodes ago - people without souls can pray. Sam used to the plot to Raiders to get Cas there. Very smart. I like Castiel calling Sam "boy" and I don't know why. Mitch Pileggi is really talented. Maybe one day he'll play a character I like. Castiel watching porn never gets old, although I agree with a point upthread that it doesn't add anything to the story. I like Castiel's point about how badly damaged Sam's soul could be and his concerns. I enjoy watching Castiel grow to care more for Sam over the seasons, and I think Sam's sacrifice in Swan Song made a huge leap for how Cas feels for him. "Karma's a bitch, bitch." I hate Samuel. Calling Dean out for siding with Sam over Mary, like that's not what Mary would've wanted. Like she hasn't been dead nearly thirty years. Sam with a bloody mouth will never not be creepy. Did he stop for water before rescuing Dean? 'Cause that blood disappeared quick. "Dean Winchester's behind you." "Mopheaded lumberjack" is a pretty good insult. Crowley, Meg and Castiel are agreeing on something. That can't be good. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I'd forgotten this was the ep with Cas watching porn.  After last ep, I'd have thought SoullessSam would have had more to say about that.  Now I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't.  

I don't think that was Sam praying so much as Cas only showed up because he thought there was another weapon from the stash that went missing he could pick up and use against Raphael.  I mean, yeah, I guess Cas had to listen in to hear that much, but...eh.  I don't know.  I still wouldn't really say that soulless people could pray.  I think it was more like the government scanning all electronic communications for certain 'hot' words.  

There's also something off this time about Cas and Crowley dissuading Sam from getting his soul back.  I don't know what.  Cas didn't come off as genuine this time as I thought he was first time I watched.  And Crowley - Crowley just seemed like he was saying that because 1. he was lazy and didn't want to have to be the one to try to get Sam's soul back and 2. without his soul, Sam sure was easier to talk into working with/for demons, wasn't he?  Actually, Meg was the only one who didn't have a dog in that fight to me.  (Heh.  No pun intended with the hellhounds Meg just killed!)  Besides, was Crowley still claiming he's the one who got Sam out of the cage?  Just all kinds of fishiness going on in this ep - and I haven't even gotten to Grampy yet.  

Yeah, I understand him wanting to bring his daughter back from the dead.  But not at the expense of her sons who were alive and right in front of him.  And Crowley would have only been able to do that if Mary was in hell, right?  Or did he think his daughter was in hell?  Did any of them (Grampy or the boys) actually believe that Crowley could pull someone - soul intact - out of heaven?  That does make sense to me if they did.  

ETA: I rolled my eyes hard at the misogynistic torture table, since only women are naked when tortured.  

Edited August 17, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
the sexist torture table

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, I understand him wanting to bring his daughter back from the dead.  But not at the expense of her sons who were alive and right in front of him.  And Crowley would have only been able to do that if Mary was in hell, right?  Or did he think his daughter was in hell?  Did any of them (Grampy or the boys) actually believe that Crowley could pull someone - soul intact - out of heaven?  That does make sense to me if they did.  

Well, not necessarily. If they made a deal and Samuel sold his soul, it shouldn't matter if the person being resurrected was in Heaven or Hell. But, the bigger problem would be the body. Mary was killed in a fire and there wasn't even anything left to bury. It took how many angels to resurrect Dean after Hell and his body was mostly intact--other than the hellhound damage. And, it took a number of angels to resurrect Adam after the boys had given him a hunter's funeral. As far as I know, even as the King of Hell, Crowley was never as powerful as full-powered angels. He made up the difference by being a Boy Scout--that is, always planning ahead and being prepared for almost any eventuality.

Maybe Samuel was banking on Crowley being powerful enough to accomplish this feet once he got all the souls in Purgatory? Other than that, I got nothin'. Stupid and needlessly contrived motivation, if you ask me.

Edited August 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, not necessarily. If they made a deal and Samuel sold his soul, it shouldn't matter if the person being resurrected was in Heaven or Hell.

I guess I'm thinking Aladdin: can't bring anybody back from the dead.  It's not pretty!  Lol.  And I can't remember early lore enough, but it bothers me that a demon could resurrect a soul from Heaven.  In the case of YellowEyes bringing back John, I can handwave that away because John had just died and maybe he was still 'in the veil.'  

13 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, the bigger problem would be the body. Mary was killed in a fire and there wasn't even anything left to bury. It took how many angels to resurrect Dean after Hell and his body was mostly intact--other than the hellhound damage. And, it took a number of angels to resurrect Adam after the boys had given him a hunter's funeral.

Don't forget Sam was brought back from the cage after he jumped in body and all!  It must have been the faeries!

13 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Maybe Samuel was banking on Crowley being powerful enough to accomplish this feet once he got all the souls in Purgatory?

I don't think Samuel knew exactly what Crowley was after though, did he?  Even if Grampy did know that Crowley wanted the location to Purgatory, I don't think he knew exactly what he wanted to do with it.  A lot of that bit of the plot didn't make any sense.  

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I guess I'm thinking Aladdin: can't bring anybody back from the dead.  It's not pretty!  Lol.  And I can't remember early lore enough, but it bothers me that a demon could resurrect a soul from Heaven.  In the case of YellowEyes bringing back John, I can handwave that away because John had just died and maybe he was still 'in the veil.'  

I think angel or demon, souls can be plucked from either Heaven or Hell if you have enough juice. Angels can heal, so it makes sense to me they can resurrect someone and "rebuild" their bodies. As far as I know, demons can only heal the bodies they inhabit and only while they are inhabiting them. But, I think that comes down to their different power sources. An angel's grace seems to be very powerful in comparison to the twisted soul demons are.

35 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think Samuel knew exactly what Crowley was after though, did he?  Even if Grampy did know that Crowley wanted the location to Purgatory, I don't think he knew exactly what he wanted to do with it.  A lot of that bit of the plot didn't make any sense.  

I don't know, Samuel was grilling the Alphas for information, so I suspect he knew quite a bit. I don't want to use spoiler tags, so maybe I'll move this to a later thread when I get home?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I guess I'm thinking Aladdin: can't bring anybody back from the dead.  It's not pretty!  Lol.  And I can't remember early lore enough, but it bothers me that a demon could resurrect a soul from Heaven.  In the case of YellowEyes bringing back John, I can handwave that away because John had just died and maybe he was still 'in the veil.'  

 

Taking a question to All Episodes.

[Iju]

On 04/05/2016 at 8:56 AM, DittyDotDot said:

::Snort:: I have a whole theory involving brain damage due to all the times they've taken blows to the head...really helps with some of the WTF plotlines sometimes. Suspending disbelief is a good way to go. ;)

i was just thinking that when dean got knocked on the back of the head by one of meg's goons. like they both would get random headaches for sure time to time. and as i said before it would be cool if they had one or two face scars but i guess that would be too much for the make-up team. anyway, sam and dean are right; even if they aren't killed in the midst of battle, their bodies are going to give out soon and they will die at a fairly young age simply because of their lifestyle. it doesn't help they eat diner food and drink alcohol more than any liquid as well. but that's leading off.

------

crow is a smart aleck demon as most and annoyed me, but i still liked him out of all demons. so they didn't explain why he was talking with himself in the beginning? i'm expecting an explanation later in the season because that was R A N D O M.

i actually feel bad every time the bros call cass. he's in a really serious battle after all. cass sizing sam up was a good scene. "What can you do, boy?" since he is full powered mode he is not to be messed with. cass kissing meg was so weird i looked away, lol. "I feel so...clean." i would like a "clean" kiss too, meg. ;)

"You're thinking there is a next time-" "Whatever gets you through the night." tell em, dean. it directly reminded me of the other moment: "You better aim good, because when I come back, I'm gonna be pissed." i'm so happy i can relate so fiercely when it comes to sam and dean for each other, but samuel was already dead when he threw cass away. 

P.S.: "You can't look at porn in a room full of dudes." why? would you prefer with a bunch of women? genuinely curious.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Iju

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Iju said:

but samuel was already dead when he threw cass away. 

When who threw Cas away?

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, Iju said:

P.S.: "You can't look at porn in a room full of dudes." why? would you prefer with a bunch of women? genuinely curious.

I'm guessing watching porn in a room full of aroused men would be awkward for some which was my take on that line.

Edited April 22, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Iju]

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

When who threw Cas away?

samuel did, when he used the "angel go away" sign.

16 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm guessing watching porn in a room full of aroused men would be awkward for some which was my take on that line.

 i don't know much about sex but i honestly thought people did that, at least some lol. i mean if people record theirselves having sex why not do anything sexual together with the cameras off? *shrug*

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Iju said:

 i don't know much about sex but i honestly thought people did that, at least some lol. i mean if people record theirselves having sex why not do anything sexual together with the cameras off? *shrug*

I suppose some do but from their reaction I'm guessing that Sam and Dean aren't the type of people that do.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 hours ago, Iju said:

 i don't know much about sex but i honestly thought people did that, at least some lol. i mean if people record theirselves having sex why not do anything sexual together with the cameras off? *shrug*

You know the porn wasn't actually starring Sam or Dean, right? LOL.

Edited April 23, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Iju]

On 23/04/2018 at 7:08 AM, DeeDee79 said:

I suppose some do but from their reaction I'm guessing that Sam and Dean aren't the type of people that do.

ah okay, that makes sense then.

On 23/04/2018 at 2:35 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

You know the porn wasn't actually starring Sam or Dean, right? LOL.

??

[The Companion]

On 11/30/2014 at 2:54 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Another S6 episode that comes in at meh for me. It does have quite a bit of Grampy Campbell in it, after all. I do like the idea of Meg on the run and Crowley trying to hunt down all the Lucifer loyalists, but that's not what this episode is really about, so whatever, right?

It's nice to see Cass again, but I'm not sure how I feel about the pizza man stuff, though. On the one hand, I find Cass watching porn somewhat amusing, but not sure what it has to do with anything, either. And the whole scene with Cass and Meg making out while hellhounds were coming to get them seemed a bit odd to me. I also have never really been excited by the way they portray torture on this show. While it doesn't offend me, per se, I'm just always disappointed they don't seem to understand that torture isn't just physical abuse. Plus, I will never understand why only female demons get stripped and tied down to a super-special table to be tortured, but male ones get to sit fully clothed while tied to a chair. I'm really glad we haven't seen that demon torture table for a very long time.

But, I think the big fail, for me, is Grampy Campbell  working for Crowley so he'll bring Mary back. That part just doesn't make sense to me. It would have made far more sense to me if Crowley threatened torturing Mary in her afterlife to get Grampy to work for him. I just don't know what Grampy thought he was gonna tell Mary when she got resurrected, "sorry to take you away from your afterlife, but I just wanted you to be alive and I killed your sons to make it happen"? Sorry, that's probably too much said about this stupid plotline anyway.

The good to end on: I do find Sam to be very unsettling throughout most of the episode. From the way he threatens Cass to the way he bites his own arm to make that devil's trap. It's disturbing--as it should be--and I'm starting to see the real need to solve this soulless problem. Dean's right, Sam's basically a replicant. And, I love Dean throughout the episode. I love how he's had it at the beginning of the episode and doesn't want to work for Crowley anymore. I love how he is skeptical of what Sam is doing working with Meg. I love how he is just resolved in knowing Sam needs his soul and anything else they'll figure a way to deal with. And, I absolutely love how he tells Grampy Campbell that he's gonna kill him. I want Grampy Campbell dead, dead, dead!

So, maybe not their worst one, but not exactly a good one either, IMO.

Every single word of this. 

On 5/3/2016 at 3:12 PM, Dobian said:

Another conceit of this show is when Sam and Dean cut themselves so they can draw demon traps and angel repellents with their blood.  Do you see how big those things are and how much blood they require?  We're talking a quart can of paint here.  You'd need to slice an artery and follow up with a trip to the ER.  And then they show Sam chewing through his arm to get a big enough gash to pump out all that red stuff?  Suspending the disbelief now.

They also cut themselves on the palm. Like almost anywhere else would be better if you plan on engaging in combat later. 

I just never got on the Crowley train. Maybe he comes back because so many do in this show, but I just found him way to in love with his own voice and enchanted with his own jokes. I know that makes me an outlier. I also still don't get his purgatory goal or the point of it all. It wasn't the actor. I loved him in Doctor Who. I can't really explain it.

I actually really like this Meg. I like the actress a lot. 

I did love the Raiders reference. Poor Castiel seems pretty busy, y'all. 

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, The Companion said:

I know that makes me an outlier.

Don't feel too badly. I generally thought Crowley needed a good killing. A lot.

[MagnusHex]

LMAO Another Dick Cheney joke! I'm not even American, but I heard of all the nasty stuff he pulled with 9/11 during the Bush administration.

Crowley's one of those fun-to-hate villains that I wouldn't mind seeing return, but I'm not gonna shed any tears over him burning to crisp either. I love the sound of his voice too as much as he loves his. It's just so slick and smooth, all that charm rolling right off Mark Sheppard's British tongue.

Not sure I like Grumpy Skinner that much anymore. The novelty of having Mitch return to the show has kinda worn off, especially with Samuel being a tough character to respect. His motive is kinda sympathetic (but not really), but him lacking any backbones just makes him kinda a loser I don't really wanna see hang around, since it makes for a pretty pathetic and boring character. Dean's got a point about bringing the dead back, but Samuel wouldn't hear the end of it.

Of course Crowley couldn't get Sam's soul back. Guess that would have been too easy for a CW show. Guess I'll have to wait till the finale.

Meg's torture bit (while also being a damsel that needs to be saved) is on the tasteless side, but that's nothing new when it comes to Supernatural's treatment of female characters. It's kinda a boys' club where it's only natural to let the angel have a little fun with a demon girl before ganking her. I thought Dean had matured past his problematic views on women, but I guess not.

2/5 We're not gonna get fun fairies and aliens MotW every episode, but man, the mythology's getting kinda dull too.

[DeeDee79]

12 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

thought Dean had matured past his problematic views on women, but I guess not.

What problematic views?

[MagnusHex]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

What problematic views?

He said he was gonna let Cas have an hour of kinky fun with Meg before killing her.

  

15 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Meg's torture bit (while also being a damsel that needs to be saved) is on the tasteless side, but that's nothing new when it comes to Supernatural's treatment of female characters. It's kinda a boys' club where it's only natural to let the angel have a little fun with a demon girl before ganking her. I thought Dean had matured past his problematic views on women, but I guess not.

Edited April 17, 2023 by MagnusHex

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, MagnusHex said:

He said he was gonna let Cas have an hour of kinky fun with Meg before killing her.

  

What he said was that she was a smart girl, because if she hadn't left, he was going to kill her.  Then he added that he wouldn't have done it before letting Cas have an hour with her first.  It was to poke fun at Cas for what happened earlier in the episode more than it was meant to be at her expense, particularly with the compliment for Meg at the start.  

What I find to be a more compelling discussion is that this was another episode in a running theme throughout the show where sexual violence is used against Dean.  We see it time and time and time again.  In this particular episode, it's with Meg when she straddles him while he's bound to a chair, threatens to cut his throat, calls it foreplay, and tells him to satisfy her or she'll please herself.  While it's an interrogation, the undertones are obvious, and how is it treated in-show?  Sam laughs.  Does Sam have instances where he's in a similar situation?  Occasionally, but it is far more prevalent with Dean and is quite often either never addressed or becomes a joke.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

He said he was gonna let Cas have an hour of kinky fun with Meg before killing her.

 

Considering their history with Meg, I don't find Dean's disdain for her to be problematic in the slightest. 

[MagnusHex]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Considering their history with Meg, I don't find Dean's disdain for her to be problematic in the slightest. 

That's fair, I suppose, but enemy or not, I still found it tasteless. But that's something I'm used to in the show anyway.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, MagnusHex said:

That's fair, I suppose, but enemy or not, I still found it tasteless. But that's something I'm used to in the show anyway.

You're closer to the better half of season 6 though 🙂 

[rhofmovalley]

Echoing what others already said. If I found out a family member saved me by sacrificing my child my first act would be to beat the crap out of them. A parent does not value their own life over their child's and Stupid Samuel should know this. 

And besides, most grandparents adore and spoil their grandchildren. Apparently not Stupid Samuel.

I love Mitch Pileggi but this character sucks. 

[supposebly]

On 4/17/2023 at 3:11 PM, CluelessDrifter said:

Does Sam have instances where he's in a similar situation?

The first time she had them tied up was in season 1 and that's when she concentrated on Sam.

On 4/17/2023 at 3:53 PM, DeeDee79 said:

Considering their history with Meg, I don't find Dean's disdain for her to be problematic in the slightest. 

I find the writing of having their fun and then kill the demon in a female body creates quite awful optics.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, supposebly said:

I find the writing of having their fun and then kill the demon in a female body creates quite awful optics.

Just as awful as when she possessed Sam and tried to kill Jo? No matter the body that she's in, Meg has always been terrible. That's why I say that I don't find their treatment of her problematic. But I understand to each their own.

[CluelessDrifter]

On 7/31/2023 at 10:07 PM, supposebly said:

The first time she had them tied up was in season 1 and that's when she concentrated on Sam.

 

Except even in Shadow, the episode you mean, she straddles Dean first when they're tied up

Edited August 4, 2023 by CluelessDrifter