S10.E05: Boxed In

[normasm]

Accused, I took your comment over to the Spencer thread to ask you a question, so, if you're interested...

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Daniel, you make a very good point. They do often make JJ the empath. The one who understands. Who does the important interviews with her "compassionate" look on her face.

 

It's the putting compassionate in quote marks that makes it art.

[zannej]

But... there's absolutely no guarantee that other parents will understand how they feel, or even care. See: JJ and Hotch, neither of whom had any problem with the fact that no one bothered to look for Joshua. Because he was a "bad kid" -- unlike THEIR perfect angels, presumably. And people who don't have children can absolutely care intensely about finding other people's children. While I agree that law enforcement can sometimes be apathetic, that's really not the case when it comes to missing children. Especially (sadly) WHITE missing children.

Oh, I do agree with this. I know in reality that there are some people without children who seem to care even more than people with children, BUT, there seems to be an attitude that I have encountered from many people who have children that ONLY people who have children actually "get" what its like. Now, I do know from experience that some things you really can't feel until you've experienced it. The key is that these parents are distraught and not thinking rationally. They want their children back. They want someone to understand how they feel. Even if someone who doesn't have children might work just as hard or even twice as hard to find the missing kid, the parents are often just freaking out. On a side note, there are quite a few comedians who make jokes about parents dismissing their opinions because they don't have children themselves and therefore, are not qualified to comment (even when the comments have nothing to do with children or parenthood). 

Basically, the reality is not what matters, its the parent's perceptions that shape their reactions. I hope that makes sense.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Basically, the reality is not what matters, its the parent's perceptions that shape their reactions. I hope that makes sense.

 

 

It's one of the reasons why I try not to make parenting observations to my brother and sister:  both who have kids....I do not.   Its not logical but not all things in this world are.   Its also why I obey their parenting rules even if they sound crazy to me...their kids their rules.  

Edited November 1, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[Danielg342]

The biggest issue I have with this episode (unfortunately it is the central plot point) is the unsub's motivation. He was rejected by his fiancee, so he turned his rage on little boys that reminded him of himself? Yeah, sorry Virgil, I'm not buying it. I would buy it more if he was targeting women, particularly surrogates for Sharlene, since her rejection seemed to be the trigger for his devolution. That seems to be a more straightforward connection, not this regression gobbledygook. I could even buy him targeting surrogates for his mother who killed his dad, or even surrogates for his dad if I was being super generous. But surrogates for himself? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't track at all in my mind, unless I am missing something huge. It’s like Virgil had some idea of what he wanted the unsub to do, but he couldn’t come up with a realistic trigger or reason for doing it. It couldn’t be because his dad died three years ago, because his dad was murdered 12 years ago.

 

I agree, sounds pretty strange. Perhaps if he had led eggings and other Hallowe'en mischief for years and then his fiance left him because he went too far one year, I could buy why he'd decide to punish the kids, since the kids were responsible for his breakup.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Oh, I do agree with this. I know in reality that there are some people without children who seem to care even more than people with children, BUT, there seems to be an attitude that I have encountered from many people who have children that ONLY people who have children actually "get" what its like. Now, I do know from experience that some things you really can't feel until you've experienced it. The key is that these parents are distraught and not thinking rationally. They want their children back. They want someone to understand how they feel. Even if someone who doesn't have children might work just as hard or even twice as hard to find the missing kid, the parents are often just freaking out. On a side note, there are quite a few comedians who make jokes about parents dismissing their opinions because they don't have children themselves and therefore, are not qualified to comment (even when the comments have nothing to do with children or parenthood). 

 

I wasn't sure where to put this, but it relates to the episode, honest, so.

 

They do the "Do you have children?" thing on SVU as well, or at least they did when Stabler was still around. Since most if not all of SVU's cases involve kids in some form or other, the refrain "Do you have children, Detective?" was a common one. And an annoying one, because Elliott would also get on the childless Olivia's case about how she couldn't possibly understand Blah Blah Whatever Thing because she wasn't a wife or a mother.

 

Now, I'm not a parent because of reasons, but I did have parents, and despite my belief that they were aliens from outer space, they really weren't. Parents are not a separate species. Hotch and JJ don't automatically care more just because of Jack and Henry, and the implication that they do also implies that the others, including Kate since Meg isn't her biological child, care less, and I don't believe that's the case. At all.

[JMO]

Whenever I hear someone say they had no idea what it was like to be a parent until they actually were one, I think 'You must not have spent much time thinking about it." 

 

Really, if everyone had to experience something in order to be empathetic about it, we'd all be too busy experiencing, and not being empathetic.

[normasm]

Now, I'm not a parent because of reasons, but I did have parents, and despite my belief that they were aliens from outer space, they really weren't. Parents are not a separate species. Hotch and JJ don't automatically care more just because of Jack and Henry, and the implication that they do also implies that the others, including Kate since Meg isn't her biological child, care less, and I don't believe that's the case. At all.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes…………………..

[Knittzu]

I didn't realize this was a common procedural troupe rather than something uniquely irritating about CM. (I'm not much into procedurals and the longer I watch this one, the more I realize why.)

 

As if since they don't have children, they'll just say, "Screw it. I'm not gonna look for this stupid kid. I can't relate to being a parent with a missing child, so I'm just going to sit over here and eat bon bons while the rest of you who are parents, go ahead and solve the case."

 

 

LOLOLOL. Yeah. I wonder if this is a question that parents of missing children routinely ask in real life? Accusing the people looking for your kid of being incapable of understanding love seems like a very poor place to begin such a critical relationship.

[normasm]

"Screw it. I'm not gonna look for this stupid kid. I can't relate to being a parent with a missing child, so I'm just going to sit over here and eat bon bons while the rest of you who are parents, go ahead and solve the case."

Hahahahahaha, this has made my night!!!

[JMO]

Be forewarned----I'm about to try to be annoyingly fair here. 

 

I just watched the episode all the way through (having done only my usual fast-forward Reid-assessment prior to this).  Overall, I thought it was decent.  And, if I wasn't the die-hard Reid fan that I am, I would have said it was actually good.  But I am that die-hard Reid fan, so I spent the entire second half of the episode waiting for him to appear, rather than paying attention to the storyline-----which meant that I ended up having to watch it again.

 

I decided to try my own 'cognitive regression' and took myself back to when I first discovered the show, and was willing to take in whatever they had to give me, not noticing how the screen time was weighted, nor who had the best lines, etc.  With that mindset, I was able to enjoy the story for what it was, and to appreciate all the moments we did get.  I especially liked seeing the dichotomy in Hotch's demeanor when he is in the role of 'father' versus when he is in the role of 'FBI agent'.  He's so different, he's almost not the same person.  (Someone who's better at writing Hotch than I am, please explore this in a fanfic!). 

 

I thought all the team members were used well, to the extent that they were used.  As much as I would have loved to see Reid again, I actually would have liked to see Kate a little more in this one.  As others have noted, she has a bit of a tough veneer to her, demonstrated in how she approaches and would like to deal with unsubs.  Given that, I thought it would be interesting to have learned a bit more about the other side of her in this vaguely parenting-centered episode.  (Then again, they did need the unsub to talk with them at the end.  With Kate around he might not have gotten the chance!)

 

Of course, I'm disappointed that we had a Halloween episode with literally no reference to Reid's love of the occasion.  And I'm as disappointed as Reid probably is that Henry has already forsaken him for Spiderman. 

 

But if I take myself back, and ignore all the 'might-have-beens' and 'should-have-dones', if I take the episode at surface value---it was decent. 

 

But it could have been so much better!

 

 

[Knittzu]

JMO, we can always count on you to be very fair. :)

 

And I never find your fairness annoying.

[normasm]

To be fair, we can count on CoStar, too!

[Cobalt Stargazer]

To be fair, we can count on CoStar, too!

 

I feel the love, I really do!

[zannej]

I actually do wish we'd gotten more from Kate. I wanted to hear something about her Halloween traditions. I know people didn't want another episode showing her being all happy and affectionate with her niece, but a small shout-out wouldn't have hurt. They could have had a scene where Reid was excited about Halloween and she was happy about it.

 

I know I said I didn't want her to be overused, but I don't want her to be underused either. They've got her, they should use her equally.

[SSAHotchner]

Whenever I hear someone say they had no idea what it was like to be a parent until they actually were one, I think 'You must not have spent much time thinking about it." 

 

Really, if everyone had to experience something in order to be empathetic about it, we'd all be too busy experiencing, and not being empathetic.

I think that anyone who's not totally self-centered or a monster can understand the grief that someone feels at losing a child or the pain of seeing a child suffer. But I will say that if you had told me even the day before I had my first child (well, twins actually) that I would be able to clean the boogers out of someone else's nose, I would have said you were crazy. :) I could wipe my kids behinds or clean up their barf, but I'd rather not do that for anyone else. I will say that having children allowed me to understand God's love, how you can love someone no matter what they do, whether they obey you or deliberately do what they know is wrong. That was a powerful lesson.

I didn't realize this was a common procedural troupe rather than something uniquely irritating about CM. (I'm not much into procedurals and the longer I watch this one, the more I realize why.)

 

 

LOLOLOL. Yeah. I wonder if this is a question that parents of missing children routinely ask in real life? Accusing the people looking for your kid of being incapable of understanding love seems like a very poor place to begin such a critical relationship.

It seems like one of those things that the writers feel the need to include in the script. I think if my child or grandchild were to be abducted I'd want to know what the law enforcement personnel were doing to find him/her rather than ask questions about their family or home life.

[normasm]

I hear you about experiencing parenthood, SSAH, but I can have that experience cleaning buggers out of a parent's nose, etc., and I may have to do that for a sister. Just thinking about that kind of love, and I have seen it from parents and non parents, I know for certain it's not exclusive to parents. 

 

This must be something required by EM, I can't imagine someone like Virgil (who doesn't have kids does he?) being hellbent on requiring parenthood for compassion.

[normasm]

Easter egg time: I could just be crazy, or Reid has some sort of fright wig on as he's sleeping on the couch on the plane. It looks like it has white streaks in it, maybe some little pony tails sticking out all over. Am I crazy? I cracked up anyway….

 

Here, I found a cap:

http://criminalmindsfansblog.tumblr.com/image/101452167655

Edited November 3, 2014 by normasm

[zannej]

I think that sometimes when people ask if the agents have children its also part of making conversation. These people are responsible for the lives of their loved ones and there is a desire to connect. In some ways they want to calm themselves. In others they want to learn more about this person that they are pinning their hopes on. The question is not always asked in panic or anger or whatever. Sure there is the fair share of accusatory "I bet you don't have children so you don't know how I'm feeling and therefore you don't have the right to tell me how I should feel or tell me to calm down" type thing. I think on some show they asked if the person had children and then asked "what would you do if this was YOUR child?"

 

Another thing I've seen them do in SVU is when one of the victims will ask "Have YOU ever been raped?" after the person said something like "I know this is hard for you." and the follow up is usually "Then you don't really KNOW".

 

Anyway, I forgot to mention here about why I thought the unsub in this case chose boys and not girls. The boys were proxies for himself. He wanted to punish himself for having been bad because he probably blamed himself for his father's death and possibly felt guilty for helping hide the body. Girls would not have been good surrogates since he didn't relate to or see himself as a girl.

 

Oh yeah, I also knew some "good" kids who once TPed a house. They actually had permission from the owner since it was just for fun but the neighbor across the street didn't know it. it was a group of teens (boys and girls). The guy across the street came out with a shotgun and took pot shots at them. They climbed into the car and took off. After several minutes they realized one of the girls was missing. They drove back to find the angry neighbor with a gun pressed to the girl's head. He said he would blow her brains out if the other kids didn't get out of the car so he could call the cops on them. Cops didn't arrest anyone but they told the kids not to do that again and told the guy he shouldn't pull guns on kids. So when I was watching the kids egging, I wondered what would have happened if someone had come out with a gun to chase the kids.

[JMO]

 

Easter egg time: I could just be crazy, or Reid has some sort of fright wig on as he's sleeping on the couch on the plane. It looks like it has white streaks in it, maybe some little pony tails sticking out all over. Am I crazy? I cracked up anyway….

 

Normasm, if you're crazy, I'm the same kind of crazy.  I see it too.  Great pick up!  I guess MGG had to find something to amuse himself for the latter half of the episode.

[Knittzu]

I think on some show they asked if the person had children and then asked "what would you do if this was YOUR child?"

 

 

If the question were asked like this, it wouldn't bother me at all. Heck I've recently been that parent, struggling to make major medical decisions for a small child. That was a question I frequently asked of our child's doctors -- but I never asked them if they had children, as if that were a prerequisite to caring or knowing what they were doing. I pretty much assumed that doctors working in critical-care pediatrics actually did care about children. Otherwise, they'd be making the big bucks in cosmetic surgery.

 

A large part of why this troupe annoys me so much on CM is that it's always a set up for JJ to announce her parental status, thus assuring the frightened parents that Mary Sue is, in fact, the very best possible person for the job. It annoys me exponentially more every time it happens now, in large part because it's intimately connected to the whole "JJ is the specialist of special snowflakes" thing they've had running for the past few seasons. I GET IT, WRITERS, OKAY? I've reached the point where I'm ready to flat-out beg for mercy.

[normasm]

Yes, if Reid or Morgan were to be asked, "what would you do if it were your child?" they would be able to answer as well as could any of the parents on the show. Most sane people could, I think, but this parent/nonparent distinction is mostly false and certainly shouldn't be perpetuated by a supposedly cerebral show.

[spinner33]

You certainly don't have to be a parent to understand what "real love" is.  Being a parent doesn't automatically make people super-loving beings either.  Haven't we seen enough real life situations where parents couldn't give two *bleeps* about their own flesh and blood?  For that matter, popping out a child doesn't automatically make you super omniscient about everything concerning children, like some stupid spidey-sense.   If that were true, people with missing children could find them all on their own without any help from authorities.  Just follow your tingly intuition! 

Edited November 4, 2014 by spinner33

[Old Dog]

Hi Spinner! So great to see you posting here again! I agree - I know of people with children who fail to show what I class as parental love so it is definitely not a given.

[spinner33]

Hi, Old Dog!  Thanks :)   

 

[zannej]

Oh man, I know some people who are total failbots as parents. I don't even like kids, but I've had people think I was a kid's parent because I was taking better care of him than his mother when we were out in public. 

 

Knittzu, I'm sorry about your child that is ill. I hope he/she will be ok.

 

I wish they would use Hotch as the parental figure more than they use JJ. They really don't need to keep driving home that she's a mother. Didn't she pull the "you don't have kids" line with Reid once? I wanted to slap the writers for that one. And Reid, for once, actually talked back instead of just taking it. I also don't buy that only a mother or parent would pick up on the stuff JJ picks up on.

[ForeverAlone]

Yeah, JJ was asked the question early in the series if she had kids (I think it was "Seven Seconds") and she replied that she didn't, but the team thinks of all the kids as their own. Same still applies now.

Edited November 5, 2014 by ForeverAlone

[Trichromatic]

- Who was that blonde woman in Aaron's apartment? Nanny or some girlfriend that we don't know about yet? Speaking of girlfriends, what happened to Beth?

 

- Still not used to Jennifer Love Hewitt. For some reason her comment about beating up the unsub irked me. Perhaps it's because police brutality has been on the news so much recently. 

 

- The pedo in the prison seemed like he wanted to stay in prison because he wanted to protect little boys from what he wanted to do to them. I honestly don't think it was about ego at all. He was a minor character, but his motivations really piqued my interest. 

 

- I like that there wasn't any gore (or the bug porn we got last episode).  On the other hand, it wasn't exactly psychologically thrilling, but it's going in the right direction.

 

- So, would charges be pressed against the unsub's mother for killing someone (even if it was self defence) and not reporting it? 

 

They do often make JJ the empath. The one who understands. Who does the important interviews with her "compassionate" look on her face.

 

 

 

I've noticed that they do this too. They push her as a woman and as a mother to commiserate with other women from whom they need information. I thought she was well placed speaking to the parents of the missing kid and the unsub's mother, but not speaking to the unsub. I feel like Morgan would have worked better there.

 

Oh yeah, I also knew some "good" kids who once TPed a house. They actually had permission from the owner since it was just for fun but the neighbor across the street didn't know it. it was a group of teens (boys and girls). The guy across the street came out with a shotgun and took pot shots at them. They climbed into the car and took off. After several minutes they realized one of the girls was missing. They drove back to find the angry neighbor with a gun pressed to the girl's head. He said he would blow her brains out if the other kids didn't get out of the car so he could call the cops on them. Cops didn't arrest anyone but they told the kids not to do that again and told the guy he shouldn't pull guns on kids. So when I was watching the kids egging, I wondered what would have happened if someone had come out with a gun to chase the kids.

 

See, America, this is why you have to stop giving people guns. . 

Edited November 5, 2014 by lovedwallflower

[idiotwaltz]

Yeah, JJ was asked the question early in the series if she had kids (I think it was "Seven Seconds") and she replied that she didn't, but the team thinks of all the kids as their own. Same still applies now.

 

Now that was a damn good episode where everybody had something to do, the case made sense, and JJ was tolerable. 

[Old Dog]

- Who was that blonde woman in Aaron's apartment? Nanny or some girlfriend that we don't know about yet? Speaking of girlfriends, what happened to Beth?

 

 

The blonde was Hotch's sister-in-law Jessica who looks after Jack when he is away. Beth is soon to be gone (hoorah!) as Bellamy Young is too busy on Scandal.

[Knittzu]

Didn't she pull the "you don't have kids" line with Reid once? I wanted to slap the writers for that one. And Reid, for once, actually talked back instead of just taking it. I also don't buy that only a mother or parent would pick up on the stuff JJ picks up on.

 

 

Yup, she actually told him that "you wouldn't understand because you don't kids" line on him. But good for Reid, he coolly informed her that he would have. If, you know, the writers hadn't murdered his girlfriend. 

 

So, would charges be pressed against the unsub's mother for killing someone (even if it was self defence) and not reporting it?

 

 

If the real world? She'd be charged with murder and probably spend the rest of her life in prison. It's a complete myth that women can kill their abusers and walk away without consequences. In the CM universe? Eh, probably no charges. Everyone's probably already forgotten about the dead guy. 

[normasm]

I think in the real world she would be charged with murder in the second, it would be pleaded down to voluntary manslaughter plus some other things like obstruction of justice and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. She would probably get 5 to 10 years, probably that would be reduced (if she plead out), and maybe some of it could be served on house arrest or probation. So, unless you think women don't live past about 70, it wouldn't be for life.

Edited November 5, 2014 by normasm

[Knittzu]

So, unless you think women don't live past about 70, it wouldn't be for life.

 

 

Of course I don't think that. But I also don't think she'd be shown much mercy, considering that her life wasn't in danger at the moment she murdered him and that she both covered up her crime afterwards and involved a minor.

[zannej]

- Still not used to Jennifer Love Hewitt. For some reason her comment about beating up the unsub irked me. Perhaps it's because police brutality has been on the news so much recently. 

 

- The pedo in the prison seemed like he wanted to stay in prison because he wanted to protect little boys from what he wanted to do to them. I honestly don't think it was about ego at all. He was a minor character, but his motivations really piqued my interest. 

 

See, America, this is why you have to stop giving people guns. . 

Yeah, I mean, I've talked to real law enforcement agents who talked tough about wanting to do that but wouldn't *actually* beat someone up. Its a sort of "cop talk" type thing, but most of the time they were just matter-of-fact stating it instead of sounding as gung ho as Kate.

 

I didn't get any sense that the pedo cared about protecting the children from himself. He showed absolutely no signs of having any sort of conflict over his attraction to children. If they had gone that route, though, it would have been interesting.

 

On the gun issue, most of the gun owners in the US don't go threatening teenagers. If it hadn't been a gun, the guy would have had an axe or a knife. Some people have guns that they collect to use only at shooting ranges and keep them locked up safely when not in use. I live in a rural area where I sometimes have to take a gun out in the yard with me in case there are venomous snakes that need to be shot. Having a gun has saved my life before and also made some junkies leave my yard when they came around looking for their dealer who was giving out my address to people (and is still claiming my address). I didn't have to point the gun, I just let them see that I had it and they decided to leave. Most of the time, the people who abuse the use of guns are the ones who don't have them legally. The key is that people need to respect the guns and be responsible with them. Now, there are still some more "oldschool" types around who think they are back in the wild west and that its ok to pull their guns on people like that. The incident I mentioned happened over 20 years ago-- almost 30. Even then, if it hadn't been a small town the guy probably would have gone to jail.

 

As to the woman killing her husband, in the real world it would depend on where it happened and what the cops thought of the husband. If he'd had run-ins with the law and they didn't like him, they probably wouldn't pursue it too much. If they'd liked the guy and disliked the wife, they would go after her with a vengeance. If they had no opinion either way, they'd still arrest her. It all depends on how the people in law enforcement felt about it and whether or not they thought it was justified. I've noticed that when a prosecutor doesn't really want to prosecute or doesn't really care-- they do a half-assed job sometimes. 

 

The town where I live, nobody really seems to care much. There have been some murders they didn't really pursue. Like a guy who ran over his girlfriend (when she was leaving him) and then backed over her a few more times to make sure she was dead. They dismissed it as an accident. Another guy allegedly committed suicide while out in the woods with a friend-- he'd had an affair with the friend's wife and the cops just took the friend's word for it that the other guy shot himself. They didn't check the gun for fingerprints or check for GSR.

Edited November 6, 2014 by zannej

[needschocolate]

I always roll my eyes when they give the profile.  The info they usually give seems so irrelevant to actually locating the unsub and the profile doesn't usually lead to finding the unsub.  For example, they will say something like "he is a white male in his 20s or 30s, who prefers tube socks and doesn't like sushi.  He was lonely as a child and may or may not have liked reading" as though they expect the police to go out and ask every white male ages 20-39, "Let me see your socks, and do you like sushi?" or the cops would be thinking, okay, I don't need to check any sushi restaurants, just everywhere else in town. So, it was a welcome change that the profile actually worked this time - the sister saw it and and informed them that it was her brother.  

 

I don't understand how Garcia could see that the woman bought diaper cream at 5 different store last week but couldn't get any info to help locate the unsub.  He pays all in cash? He works for cash too? Sure, he hasn't filed tax returns in 3 years but something like that was never enough to stop Garcia's magic computer before.  

 

But there were a few things that fit into the usual "Huh? That makes no sense" category - 

 

- The boy they found at the beginning had muscles so atrophied that he would need therapy yet he was able to fight back to the point he had to be restrained?  

 

- I would love to see the look on the judges face when Hotch tells him he need to let the prisoner/confessor go because his leg wasn't shaking.