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S04.E02: White Out

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There was the lost in the Enchanted Forest Team Princess thing, which she came out of perfectly okay, but has she been in immediate, life-or-death jeopardy in his presence?

He did deflect the fireball aimed at her face in 'Miller's Daughter.' Off the top of my head, I want to say he also pulled a gun on Regina in 'Welcome to Storybrooke' when she made to throw another at Emma, and jumped in the water after her in 3x01. (Plus there have been a few times they've all been endangered, like in the S2 finale or the Neverland stuff in general.)

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Okay, there were a few more moments of jeopardy than I remembered for Emma, but those were all more than a year ago rather than a few days ago, and over quickly because they were something where action could be taken rather than a prolonged situation of knowing she was dying on the other side of an ice wall and being unable to do much about it. So I still think that Hook has reason for a stronger reaction when he's seen Emma in jeopardy a couple of times in the past few days (for him) than David, who hasn't seen her in that kind of danger in more than a year (and Hook was there for the near-drowning after she went overboard). David might be able to keep a cooler head in that circumstance than Hook, who's got a bad enough case of "Again?!!!" to have reached the point of snapping.

 

And, as pointed out above, Hook does have a history of completely flipping out when someone he loves is dying. Danger he can handle. Death sends him over the edge. His behavior here wasn't all that different from his desperate pleas to Pan when Liam was dying of the poison.

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They might be aware thanks to internet and media

 

Thanks for this!  For me, it's just too weird to process.  I live in a small town - 30,000 - and am still deathly afraid of IS and ebola so I can't relate, the world is at my door anyway.  Mostly though in regards to the show -

 

if I were Snow White and had to read the Grimm story tale about me, and watch the Disney movie, I think I'd have multiple personality disorders.  I know it's not even imagined in the show but it would really be too much of a mind bend.

 

And oh, the narcisissim of Regina, lol, getting to be ALL the evil Queens at once, or never having been specificaly mentioned. That would make her crazy!. errr, crazier.  :)

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After seeing these gifs of Hook and the space heater, I just realized something that was probably pretty obvious. Before I was griping about how I thought it was strange that Hook knew about it, but I'm thinking now that it was probably just a call back to earlier in the episode when Emma compliments him on being a 21st century man. She kind of smiles and gives a look, almost like she's thinking "There he goes again!".

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In other news, to give props where props are due, holy crap, Jennifer Morrison was great in this. From the hitching in Emma's voice to the clip of her speech -- fast in some places but slower in others -- to the shaking to the rigid way she was standing, she sold the hell out of freezing to death.

 

Especially considering she was actually really HOT when they were filming those scenes. She recounted that in some interview from last week. They couldn't run the air conditioner while they were filming because of the sound, and apparently it wasn't doing much to cool anything between scenes, anyway.

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And, as pointed out above, Hook does have a history of completely flipping out when someone he loves is dying. Danger he can handle. Death sends him over the edge. His behavior here wasn't all that different from his desperate pleas to Pan when Liam was dying of the poison.

 

I think that makes sense once they return from Gold's but not before.  The show did a bad job of setting up that Emma was in that much danger.  So she was surrounded by ice.  So she was a hostage. They talked to her.  Her captor wasn't particularly menacing .

 

I guess Hook's problem is that he's never seen Superman's Fortress of Solitude or an Igloo and didn't realize that it should have been warmer in there than it was.

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She did a good job, and the make up was good, too.  The only quibble I have is with the writing -- hypothermia, even mild cases, produces mental confusion.  This would have been a golden opportunity for her to say something about her past, her feelings about Killian or her family, anything.  She stayed pretty lucid and that wasn't too realistic.

 

Plus what I think Aliasscape said earlier about the weird progression of hypothermia.  I thought she did a wonderful job, since I otherwise would have laughed since she laid down and seemed to pass out and then later got back up and started talking again completely lucidly.  I mean, they could have done a variation of the Boy Who Cried Wolf in this episode too if they had Emma pretending to have hypothermia so she could sock Elsa in the head with an icicle.   I actually thought it was going there for a moment in the episode.

Edited by Camera One

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Does anyone else wonder if there's a giant ice wall out on the ocean surrounding the town's coastline? The stuff around the town wouldn't necessarily be visible to the outside world, but a giant line of ice along the coast would be quite visible to anyone passing by.

Edited by KAOS Agent
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Apparently some people felt that David was flirty with Anna and Elsa. Maybe David had a tiny crush on Anna? I didn't see that myself.

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I didn't see anything with Elsa, but I do think David had a slight crush/case of hero worship on Anna in the fairyback. Not anything that he would have ever pursued, of course, knowing she was engaged to Kristoff, but maybe just the kind of thing where if she complimented him, he would blush and die the toe of his boot into the ground.

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I found the David and Anna banter to be so badly written and trying way too hard to be funny that I actually felt zero chemistry between them.  Not even friendship chemistry, much less anything romantic.  Such a shame since I really like the acting style of Dallas and I thoroughly enjoyed Anna in the season premiere.

 

Now imagine if the writers went all adult, and had Anna and David have an affair, and Charming dumps Snow for Anna once she resurfaces later this season, to please all the newly spawned Charming Anna's.  

Edited by Camera One
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Yeah--I found the Anna/Charming scenes so absurd on rewatch. The Charming flashbacks haven't been very good lately. I still loved all the present-day stuff. Good episode overall.

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I found the David and Anna banter to be so badly written and trying way too hard to be funny that I actually felt zero chemistry between them.

 

 

Yes I thought it was extremely forced. I thought his reaction to her mostly was that he wanted to sock her one (or maybe that was just me).

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Quote

    I'm not sure why, but I couldn't hear his lines with Charming very well at all in the episode.

It wasn't just you--I think the sound got funky in some of the outdoor scenes at the ice wall. I had a hard time hearing Hook and Charming several times throughout the episode.

Yep, I had to turn the closed captioning on after trying three times to understand the "that's old-fashioned by my standards" line.

 

I had to laugh when Rumple said, "Guess the honeymoon is over" when Hook and David walked into the shop. So you were treating Belle to a honeymoon spent doing shop inventory? Crazy romantic kids.

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There's a very sweet picture out there of Emma surrounded by her father, son and boyfriend and allowing them to take care of her. I have to laugh when I see it because everyone comments on how nice it is that Emma's no longer alone. However, I really notice that Snow is missing. Snow so desperately wanted to be a mommy to Emma and take care of her and the one time Emma is in need of that care and willing to accept help, her mother is off with Baby Snowflake somehow knowing how to fix a city's power grid. I know it wasn't the commentary the show was meaning to put across, but it's such a symbol of how badly the Snow/Emma relationship has been done that I almost wonder if they aren't doing it deliberately now. 

Edited by KAOS Agent
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Snow so desperately wanted to be a mommy to Emma and take care of her and the one time Emma is in need of that care and willing to accept help, her mother is off with Baby Snowflake somehow knowing how to fix a city's power grid.

But wasn't the takeaway from The Echo Cave Confessionals was that Snow just wanted to be a mother to a baby because Emma was all grown-up and couldn't provide her with that? At least, that was my takeaway. Snow even said the relationship she had with Emma isn't what she wanted. I don't mean Snow doesn't want Emma in her life (actually, I'm assuming that 'cause it's way to easy to argue that Snow is indifferent to her :-P), but it's her (Snow's) heart's desire to be a mother to a child. To baby a baby. And that's what she has with Snowflake. So Snow not being there and part of that tableau around Emma makes sense to me. Snow wanted a baby, she's got a baby and that's her "happy ending" (plus Charming, obvs). I'm assuming Snow thinks it's nice Emma is around, but it's just not what floats her boat, you know?

Edited by FabulousTater
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Snow so desperately wanted to be a mommy to Emma and take care of her and the one time Emma is in need of that care and willing to accept help, her mother is off with Baby Snowflake somehow knowing how to fix a city's power grid. I know it wasn't the commentary the show was meaning to put across, but it's such a symbol of how badly the Snow/Emma relationship has been done that I almost wonder if they aren't doing it deliberately now.

Replying in the relationships thread.

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So Snow not being there and part of that tableau around Emma makes sense to me. Snow wanted a baby, she's got a baby and that's her "happy ending" (plus Charming, obvs).

 

 

Then it's a good thing Emma has her father and Hook in that case.  I don't count Henry because he's a little twerp who jumps from one thing to another (I guess that's what being a tween means).  I find that discussing anything about Emma/Snow is like walking around a mine field.  I personally don't understand that relationship anymore.  I'm not even sure what they are too each other.

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I find that discussing anything about Emma/Snow is like walking around a mine field.  I personally don't understand that relationship anymore.  I'm not even sure what they are too each other.

 

Replying in the Relationships thread.

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There's a very sweet picture out there of Emma surrounded by her father, son and boyfriend and allowing them to take care of her. I have to laugh when I see it because everyone comments on how nice it is that Emma's no longer alone. However, I really notice that Snow is missing. 

 

Well, the ep was called "White Out." ;-)

 

I'll see myself out....

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Generally speaking, it's easier to make a mess than it is to clean it up.

 

This happened in the movie too; she completely froze Arendelle (in July) and then didn't know how to undo it.

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Generally speaking, it's easier to make a mess than it is to clean it up.

Elsa couldn't control when she used her ice powers very well either, though. That's why she warned the town she'd freeze them all. It's not just melting, but choosing when to freeze things too.

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I rewatched the first part of Anna & David's meeting and he specifically says that he'll find out "Joan's" real name at the wedding, so it seems David was planning on attending the wedding long before he formed a relationship with Anna. This makes the whole thing about Arendelle and the Enchanted Forest being fairly separate places seem very off. Random shepherds can travel there for weddings, but no one there has heard of the Dark One? I think not.

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Random shepherds can travel there for weddings, but no one there has heard of the Dark One? I think not.

 

Charming and Kristoff both lived in seclusion too. I side-eyed when I heard that in the episode, but I would find it even more difficult to believe if Arendelle was far away or diplomatically walled off from EF to the point where magic is unheard of. If Anna was able to reserve a seat on a ship, it implies that they at least trade or bus passengers back and forth.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Deleted scene from White Out of Henry and Rumple. Actually a nice scene I wish had been in the ep. Not sure what I would have wanted them to cut, though. The Snowing subplot was lame, but I wouldn't want them to cut something else with Ginny.

 

This is an interesting scene. Mr. Gold's facial expressions were priceless, especially when Henry says he's talking about Regina. But I felt his answer about regrets, etc., was a little too heavy. Mr. Gold of S1 may have agreed to wipe Henry's memories of Regina.

 

I wonder what Henry thought of his new step-grandmother's bra? 

 

ETA: Also, Henry's always wanting to write-off one or the other of his mothers. I guess it's nice to have a spare.

Edited by Rumsy4
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Also, Henry's always wanting to write-off one or the other of his mothers. I guess it's nice to have a spare.

 

Well he did say that he was down to one mom and wouldn't go lower than that.  But hey, he got to call Regina a jerk.

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Well he did say that he was down to one mom and wouldn't go lower than that.  But hey, he got to call Regina a jerk.

 

And that's why it got cut. Because we can't have anyone calling Regina a jerk for her selfish isolated brooding.

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Why they gotta ruin a perfectly good performance by Carlyle by having him work with the Truest Stupid...Oh, show. 1 step forward, 100 steps back.

 

Am I the only one that thought that when Henry and Emma got their memories back they still kept the old fake ones. I assumed they were in a "We Are Both" situation like everyone else, like dueling memories. But apparently they didn't and the fake memories were deleted?? Whatever, show.

Edited by FabulousTater
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Why they gotta ruin a perfectly good performance by Carlyle by having him work with the Truest Stupid...Oh, show. 1 step forward, 100 steps back.

 

Am I the only one that thought that when Henry and Emma got their memories back they still kept the old fake ones. I assumed they were in a "We Are Both" situation like everyone else, like dueling memories. But apparently they didn't and the fake memories were deleted?? Whatever, show.

I don't think the fake memories were deleted. I think he wanted to have ONLY the fake memories so he could forget about Regina.

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Dear show,

Two people do not make an army. In fact, the world's smallest army is like 26 men.

 

Warlord?  More like a punk.  Though I don't think anyone should turn their back on her with that meat cleaver in her hand.

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Generally speaking, it's easier to make a mess than it is to clean it up.

 

Are we assuming that Elsa can't undo her ice wall.  I assumed that Snow Queen reinforced the wall and took over the magic and that is why Elsa couldn't take it down.

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This is an interesting scene. Mr. Gold's facial expressions were priceless, especially when Henry says he's talking about Regina. But I felt his answer about regrets, etc., was a little too heavy. Mr. Gold of S1 may have agreed to wipe Henry's memories of Regina.

 

That deleted scene seems like it belonged more in "A Tale of Two Sisters" than in "White Out".

 

The scene actually astounds me since it's ridiculous.  How did Henry suddenly get to the point of wanting to lose all his memories except the New York ones?  What the hell?  Because he's being ignored by Regina?  One message from a crow and suddenly he doesn't want any memory of magic, or of his grandparents?  Then, he clarifies or changes his mind to only wanting to get rid of the Regina ones?  

 

If they wanted to do this, they needed to develop how Henry got to that point.  It could very well have been his arc for 4A.  But they can't just write a random scene like this coming out of nowhere, and then have it suddenly be solved, because of Charming's speech at the end of the episode?  

 

It is just so idiotic.  Who writes like this?  

 

They don't want to give Henry an arc since he's young and his hours are limited, fine.  But what about Rumple?  This should have been a bigger moment, him bonding with Neal's son, acknowledging that Henry has Dark One blood in him.  But presumably a few minutes later, he's going to sneer about how Emma might die?

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I don't think the fake memories were deleted. I think he wanted to have ONLY the fake memories so he could forget about Regina.

But Henry said very specifically "I want my fake memories back." If he wanted the old "real" memories gone then he should've said I want the real memories erased, not "I want my fake memories back". He also said "I want those memories back or totally new fake ones". I don't know how else to interpret that other than the fake memories were erased when he got his real memories back.

 

For a silly example, say I have two boxes of tissues, one brand Kleenex the other Puffs. If I only want to have the Kleenex brand I don't say "I want my Kleenex back". I mean, what? Who talks like that?? No, I would say "Take these Puff's tissues away." See what I'm getting at? Since Henry said "I want my fake memories back" the logical interpretation is that he currently doesn't have them.

 

It is just so idiotic.  Who writes like this?

The writers of this show.

Edited by FabulousTater

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Don't we already know that Henry is the Truest Stupid, sorry, Believer, because of his Light and Dark heritages? Please let this not be leading to another plot involving Henry. Overall, this scene was confusing and out of place, and better cut. I don't think either Emma or Henry lost their fake memories--it was just badly worded. Henry only wanted to lose his real memories of Regina. And I agree, It would have been callous for Rumple to go from this to taunting Hook about Emma's death. However, this scene clarifies that Rumple and Belle were aware of the break-in and explains why they had a picture of the missing pendant when Hook and Charming barged in. I guess they went over the store inventory to find out what had gone missing. 

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With the deleted scene, I liked the idea that Henry and Gold had a chat, but it just didn't work.  If you put it together with other deleted scene of  Snow visiting Regina and confronting her about ignoring Henry it makes more sense.  Obviously there was supposed to be a whole storyline about Regina ignoring Henry and him not taking it well.  I'm glad it got cut because it does seem ridiculous that he would be at the point (48 hours? into the drama) of wanting to forget Regina forever.  What I find important in the scene is that Gold realizes someone has broken into his shop, which is probably why he and Belle are taking inventory when Hook and Charming show up.

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I'm glad it got cut because it does seem ridiculous that he would be at the point (48 hours? into the drama) of wanting to forget Regina forever.

I don't know. He was ready to hitch his wagon to Nealfire when he found out Emma lied to him about his father being dead. And then told Regina he regretted bringing Emma to Storybrooke because he sees that Regina is all he needed. The kid is fickle (and really that should not come as a surprise. Look at his male blood line - cowards and killers. He's just living up to the standards of his rotten Y chromosome).

 

Don't we already know that Henry is the Truest Stupid, sorry, Believer, because of his Light and Dark heritages? Please let this not be leading to another plot involving Henry.

This x 1000. Please, please, pleeeeeease, no. No more Henry story arcs, or plots, or anything. Just NO MORE Henry. Please, sweet baby Jesus. Please. I am on bended knee begging...

Edited by FabulousTater
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But Henry said very specifically "I want my fake memories back." If he wanted the old "real" memories gone then he should've said I want the real memories erased, not "I want my fake memories back". He also said "I want those memories back or totally new fake ones". I don't know how else to interpret that other than the fake memories were erased when he got his real memories back.

 

For a silly example, say I have two boxes of tissues, one brand Kleenex the other Puffs. If I only want to have the Kleenex brand I don't say "I want my Kleenex back". I mean, what? Who talks like that?? No, I would say "Take these Puff's tissues away." See what I'm getting at? Since Henry said "I want my fake memories back" the logical interpretation is that he currently doesn't have them.

 

The writers of this show.

The wording was clumsy, and definitely could mean he doesn't have the fake memories, but when he referenced specifically New York, he said "when I was happy", and just wanting to forget.  Due to his age, I can buy the interpretation that he still has both sets of memories, he just wants to get rid of the Regina-centric ones. 

Edited by Mari

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but when he referenced specifically New York, he said "when I was happy" [...]

 

Right, because I assume he still has memories from the year he spent with Emma in NYC that really did happen. Those memories of that year he retains because they were actually real. They happened and he remembers being happy then. And so to me, the wording of the scene where Henry says "I want my fake memories back" was saying that Henry wants back the fake 10/11 years worth of memories because they were erased from his mind when the story book zapped the real/original memories back.

 

ETA: Also, OMG, I don't know why I even care about any of this because this is a deleted scene and not even show canon. lol :)

Edited by FabulousTater
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I actually quite liked the deleted scene. I enjoyed Rumple in it. It didn't fit in that episode though. Not sure where exactly it would, hence them releasing it as a deleted scene.

Adam says to consider it canon.

Edited by daxx
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Liked the deleted scene, loved Rumple's reaction to Henry mentioning Regina. All that wisdom he gave Henry was so opposite to what he drilled into Regina's mind all these years. It's funny to me how off the charts his manipulation back then was compared to his advice now. My only real disappointment was we didn't get as big a fake memory plot as I was hoping for.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I don't know. He was ready to hitch his wagon to Nealfire when he found out Emma lied to him about his father being dead. And then told Regina he regretted bringing Emma to Storybrooke because he sees that Regina is all he needed. The kid is fickle (and really that should not come as a surprise. Look at his male blood line - cowards and killers. He's just living up to the standards of his rotten Y chromosome).

 

Yeah--Henry can be an opportunistic brat. 

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Yeah--Henry can be an opportunistic brat.

*cough* He also gave his heart to Pan because it looked heroic. *cough*

 

That scene was yet another where Belle just goes off to the side and doesn't say a word. Couldn't they at least have a greeting with her like this?

Henry: "I guess you're my grandma now."

Belle: "I don't exactly look the part, I know!"

 

There's been zero acknowledgment of her joining the family tree, or Rumpbelle's marriage in general by other characters.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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The wording was clumsy, and definitely could mean he doesn't have the fake memories,

Maybe that's (one of the reasons) why they cut the scene? The writers looked at it and realized they just totally implied that Henry only had the Storybrooke memories and not both. IMO, when somebody says they want something "back", the clear implication (to me) is that they don't have it now; it's missing from them and not in their possession. Like, "I want my dignity back" (which is what I say to myself every once in a while after watching this show). Phrasing like that implies that it's missing.

 

He also gave his heart to Pan

And the sperm donor that helped spawn Henry also knowingly walked into a trap set up by the Wicked Witch (even said to hell with the consequences...Famous. Last. Words.) Between that sad excuse for paternity (and the whole entire male lineage that comes with it) and being raised by The Evil Queen, well, in any other show the Truest Stupid would be walking around with a Red Shirt, because long for this world he would not be (either that or the writers would be lining him up to be a serial killer with mommy issues).

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*cough* He also gave his heart to Pan because it looked heroic. *cough*

 

That scene was yet another where Belle just goes off to the side and doesn't say a word. Couldn't they at least have a greeting with her like this?

Henry: "I guess you're my grandma now."

Belle: "I don't exactly look the part, I know!"

 

There's been zero acknowledgment of her joining the family tree, or Rumpbelle's marriage in general by other characters.

Has no one acknowledged the marriage because no one knows?  Archie is not exactly Grumpy the town crier.  Their engagement was just announced, maybe the wedding is a secret?

Edited by scenicbyway

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Adam says to consider it canon.

What? Ugh. NO.

 

I'm gonna pretend it didn't happen and doesn't matter until it intrudes in my clip show version of the show. Since I don't watch Henry scenes or Woegina scenes, I may just be able to go on happily, forever, ignoring all of that crap.

 

"I want my fake memories back", Adam, when that deleted scene didn't exist. And when I say "my memories back" I mean that I want the memories I have now with the deleted scenes removed. Does that makes sense to you now, writers. Huh, does it? DOES IT?!? *flips table*

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