S01.E08: Both Sides Now

[nara]

My dislike of Frank came from the very first episode.  It was obvious that he strayed during his time away from Claire.  And yeah, that is probably a little bit of transference from my personal life reflected on any character that strays.  ::giggle::

 

It intensified when I saw who he was related to.  I still feel the smack down of the people that led him on about the reward in this episode was a little too over the top, but that is just me. 

 

 

That's how I felt too, Biz. When Frank said something like "It's understandable that in the circumstances one would stray" or whatever, when asking Claire about it, I was like, "yup, he cheated." What I thought was weird is that Claire never asked him if he cheated.

 

I really don't believe that Frank ever cheated on Claire. Reverend Wakefield's housekeeper said that Claire's Mount of Venus suggested her husband would not stray from her bed.  She was right about everything else she said from the tea leaves and Claire's palm, so I'm inclined to believe her...and to believe it applies to both Frank and Jamie.

[SpiritSong]

I really don't believe that Frank ever cheated on Claire. Reverend Wakefield's housekeeper said that Claire's Mount of Venus suggested her husband would not stray from her bed.  She was right about everything else she said from the tea leaves and Claire's palm, so I'm inclined to believe her...and to believe it applies to both Frank and Jamie.

I didn't read the scene that way. I think Mrs. Graham was talking about Claire's sexuality, that she was open to sexual pleasures and a husband would surely appreciate that. And I don't think Frank would cheat on her while they were living together, but they've been separated for 5 years and only saw each other for a few days during that entire time period. I just don't see Frank remaining celibate under those circumstances.

[ganesh]

I really don't believe that Frank ever cheated on Claire.

 

I didn't get that impression either. But I really don't give a shit. This was a literal world war, and one where both sides were racing to obtain a nuclear weapon. While one side was literally slaughtering people also. If there was ever a time where the rules were bent, this was it. Maybe Frank had a dalliance. Maybe Claire did. I think the point of E1 was, that the war was the war, and it was war, but now Frank and Claire are reconnecting, so nbd.

[Maya]

Late to the party, but I just finished the series! Sorry if this has already been addressed, but I haven't seen it anywhere. If Jamie kills BJR, would that mean no future Frank? Will Claire possibly stop him for that reason? Also, these other killings that are happening because of Claire's presence -- will they affect the future?

 

I am a non book reader BTW, so don't know if these questions are spoilers or not.

[Athena]

Late to the party, but I just finished the series! Sorry if this has already been addressed, but I haven't seen it anywhere. If Jamie kills BJR, would that mean no future Frank? Will Claire possibly stop him for that reason? Also, these other killings that are happening because of Claire's presence -- will they affect the future?

 

I am a non book reader BTW, so don't know if these questions are spoilers or not.

 

On the show, we don't know what will happen or how time travel works. We only know what the show has told us so far. 

 

If you really want the answers and get spoilers, you can post these questions in the Ask the Outlanders topic which is for non book readers to ask book readers specific things. 

[Maya]

On the show, we don't know what will happen or how time travel works. We only know what the show has told us so far. 

 

If you really want the answers and get spoilers, you can post these questions in the Ask the Outlanders topic which is for non book readers to ask book readers specific things. 

 

No, don't want any spoilers! LOL. It's just odd because if this show was not a book first, I would imagine we could speculate about these things. They are an interesting part of the show. Thank you!

[Athena]

No, don't want any spoilers! LOL. It's just odd because if this show was not a book first, I would imagine we could speculate about these things. They are an interesting part of the show. Thank you!

 

You can definitely speculate on them. No one would ruin that for you here. There are some people who do want to be just plain spoiled. We have a speculation topic for non book readers as well.  

[ganesh]

Also, these other killings that are happening because of Claire's presence -- will they affect the future?

 

The only reason that leans me to no, is that Culloden wipes out so many of them that it doesn't make a difference. 

 

Clearly, killing BJR would not be in Claire's best interest. I don't get the impression that this is a time travel show, and a lot has been going on for Claire to really sit and think deeply about these issues, but I do hope they cross her mind at some point. We've also talked about her somehow sending a message to herself as well. 

[taanja]

 

We've also talked about her somehow sending a message to herself as well.

this is  killing me a little bit! (Ok not literally but actually!)  ;-) 

 

She knows where and when she will be in the future.  She needs to send herself some kind of message about going through the magic stones and the hijinks that ensue ----dammit!

 

That's all I can think about lately when I have been watching the re-runs

Edited October 6, 2014 by taanja

[terrymct]

Late to the party, but I just finished the series! Sorry if this has already been addressed, but I haven't seen it anywhere. If Jamie kills BJR, would that mean no future Frank? Will Claire possibly stop him for that reason? Also, these other killings that are happening because of Claire's presence -- will they affect the future?

 

I am a non book reader BTW, so don't know if these questions are spoilers or not.

 

 

BJR could have a wife and kids back in Essex for all we know.   Killing him may not make a bit of difference.

[ganesh]

Claire doesn't know that for sure, so maybe better safe than sorry I unwound the space-time continuum.

[taanja]

 

sorry I unwound the space-time continuum.

 

HaHa!!! Thanks! I laughed out loud at this!

 

[Meredith Quill]

Claire doesn't know that for sure, so maybe better safe than sorry I unwound the space-time continuum.

 

Timey Wimey Wibbly Wobbly that's all I'm gonna say ;)

[paramitch]

I'm with others that the first attempted rape scene by the English soldiers was overkill -- I wish they'd either completely left out the incident, or that they had simply had the near-rape go way less far than it appeared to -- I don't think the show needs constant sexual aggression against Claire to bring home the realities of her situation. I got why BJR would do it, and that makes sense to me and is in character for him to use against a woman he's attempting to torture -- but the two wandering guys who instantly embark on rapine just made me roll my eyes a bit. Only Claire's bravery redeemed it for me.

 

But yeah, after that moment, why stay in 1743? It's horrible. I was so glad she started sprinting for the stones. Sorry -- Jamie's cute, but he's just not worth it.

 

I don't really believe that Claire and Frank's was this amazing, deep, soul-filled love when all this happened, either. I'm pretty sure in the pilot, in one of Claire's voice overs, that she said though she and Frank had been married five years? They only spent like 10 hours? days? together, and that when the war was over, they were learning to know each other again; hence the second honeymoon in Scotland. Based on that, and what I've seen, I take the position that both Jaime and Frank are even, with Frank just a wee bit ahead.

 

 

 

The voiceover says that she and Frank were "inseparable" before the war, then goes on to explain that during the war itself they'd only had 10 days total together and were now trying to find one another again. So it does mention that they were very close before the war, and to me, the first episode painted a believable picture for me of a man and woman who loved each other deeply yet were simply hesitant with one another temporarily after their long time apart.

 

Meanwhile, I definitely read that scene between Claire and Frank differently. He asks her fairly diplomatically if the guy outside might be a suitor from the war, she tells him she wasn't unfaithful, and he goes on to clarify that he wasn't accusing, just explaining that he truly meant that he didn't care if she was, that he loves her enough that nothing she did during that time would matter to him. (Which I think is an important moment because it also speaks to Claire's situation directly now -- if Claire is able to return, Frank has already told her nothing that has happened would matter to him.)

To me it's a positive scene about Frank's love for Claire, not a negative one in which he's trying to weasel out of some past bad behavior. (And honestly, if he had, I don't think he'd bring it up the way he did.)

 

I found this an incredibly powerful episode, and very sad, as it did feel like a door was closing for Frank, who certainly did everything an adoring husband would do to search for Claire, from the posters, flyers, search parties, and police visits to staying in the village another two months to look for her, delaying his new job at Oxford. And I understood the beating he gave the thieves because what they did was incredibly cruel -- giving him hope at that last possible moment only to try to rob him. I was glad he was able to defend himself, and didn't see the temper as a sign of BJR, but as a sign of the fact that he had been pushed over the edge and was in despair.

 

The scene of Frank and Claire calling for one another through the stones and through time was gorgeously done, and the moment of Frank sobbing alone there, all hope lost, broke my heart. 

 

The final scene with BJR was well done, but I like others question whether Claire had to be naked for it (I also had the exact same problem with the flashback scene with the sister -- both times, the completey ripping of the bodice just seemed a bit over the top to me). It would have been just as effective, violent and disturbing without that in both cases.

 

Although BJR's look of surprise and glee at Jamie's (very welcome) appearance was fantastic, and made me laugh. It was such an odd yet realistic reaction that this twisted man would be delighted to see that two of the people he loathes most are married (more torture opportunities for him!).

[WatchrTina]

 

It was such an odd yet realistic reaction that this twisted man would be delighted to see that two of the people he loathes most are married (more torture opportunities for him!).

Oh I wouldn't describe BJR's feelings towards Jamie and Claire as loathing.  It's something much more twisted than that.  They appear to be very high on his list of "people I'd like to torture," but not because he loathes them.  I'm have trouble coming up with words to describe his feelings.  What does a cat feel towards the mouse it toys with until it is dead?

Edited December 16, 2014 by WatchrTina

[Pestilentia]

What does a cat feel towards the mouse it toys with until it is dead?

 

It's simple prey drive.

It is fulfilling one's "prime directive."

Probably feels good and is really, really fun.

[basil]

I really don't believe that Frank ever cheated on Claire.

 

 

Oh, I do, I think she knows and doesn't care.

[Phoenix911]

I started (and finished) watching the show only this weekend, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating things.
* I really liked the final episode. It's not the best of the 8, but it was a lot better than the 7th and I liked how each story arc got its spotlight without feeling rushed.
* I don't know how much time passed since Claire disappearance, but I thought that it's been a while, at least several months (maybe 3-4) and I really appreciate Frank for looking for her all this time. I got the feeling that Frank is not very popular among the fans of the show/books but so far he's one of my favorites.
* Does anyone specify exactly how much time passed in the episode? I thought it was a lot longer than 1 day and didn't think anything was strange with it, but then some of the comments state that Claire had a really "bad day".
* Many of my thoughts on the rape attempts were presented here before but I'd like to add that I think it’s a bit weird that she didn’t realize how defenseless she was until now.
I know she had the protection of the clan from day one, but it’s still weird.

[mizkat]

The final scene with BJR was well done, but I like others question whether Claire had to be naked for it (I also had the exact same problem with the flashback scene with the sister -- both times, the completey ripping of the bodice just seemed a bit over the top to me). It would have been just as effective, violent and disturbing without that in both cases.

 

I actually thought the sister bodice ripping pretty much summed up how sadistic BJR is (and I'm not a fan of nudity). Talk about humiliation for both Jamie and his sister. But yeah, totally not necessary for him to do that with Claire. Bodice ripping seems to be the go-to for these kind of shows, although I think Outlander is more tasteful than a lot of them. Ditto on the unnecessary length of first rape attempt, although that did literally shock Claire back to reality and made her head for the stones. Also, it introduced conflict with Jamie that's been missing between the two of them. But it could have been scaled back, IMO. 

 

IDK--I can't get with Frank for some reason. I started reading Outlander months ago, but I found Frank so dead boring in the book I stopped reading. I'm not finding him any better in the series, even though he's been given a point of view. I guess I can't shake the thought that he's sketchy--not sure if he truly is (as in he had an affair/fell out of love with Claire during the war) or the actor isn't doing it for me. I don't think Jamie and Claire are in love, either. I think Jamie's infatuated and horny, and he always tries to do the right thing no matter what. I can see the potential for him falling in love with her, but he's not there yet. Claire is getting from Jamie what she didn't get from Frank, and that's devoted attention. Frank, OTH, seems to live in his head a lot, as professors are wont to do. I don't know if Claire needs or wants that kind of attentiveness Jamie gives her or if she's just attracted to a sweet, loyal man. Hard to tell at this point, but its definitely going to be a longer process for her to fall in love with Jamie, if that ever happens. 

 

The actors are selling the heck out of this, I have to say. I feel like finally someone has correctly brought a romance novel to life, and is capturing the flavor of what makes romance novels so popular. I appreciate everyone's efforts in being very loyal to the source material, if not to the letter then at least in spirit. 

[WatchrTina]

It's just occurred to me that the final scene in this episode is the very first time Cait, Tobias, and Sam ever shot a scene together.  In honor of that, here's my favorite photo of the dynamic trio.  

 

 

Happy March 4th.  Only 31 days to go!  Can't wait to see what the powers that be give us as our last "Doughtlander" goody.

 

ETA: The "goody" released on March 4th was a new pair of posters for season 1, part 2 that echoed the design of the original poster.  Oh.  Okay.  #DisappointedExpectations.

Edited March 10, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Hybridcookie]

Now that the show's finally been shown in the UK (thank you Amazon Prime), I've finally seen how amazing this show is.

 

My favourite scene from this episode (and from the show so far) was the scene with Frank and Claire at Craigh na Dun separated through time and calling to each other, the build up of the scene, with the music (Bear McCreary is amazing) was just great

Edited March 28, 2015 by Hybridcookie

[methodwriter85]

Oh I wouldn't describe BJR's feelings towards Jamie and Claire as loathing.  It's something much more twisted than that.  They appear to be very high on his list of "people I'd like to torture," but not because he loathes them.  I'm have trouble coming up with words to describe his feelings.  What does a cat feel towards the mouse it toys with until it is dead?

 

I think he has an erotic, sadistic fascination with them. Like how a sexually-based serial killer feels who tortures his victims before he kills them.

[viajero]

Great episode, especially after *The Wedding* which I yawned all the way through. I just can't get behind Jaime& Claire, and if I'd known how much of the show was going to be their romance, I'd have stayed far far away. 

 

I binged watched the first eight episodes over the past few days and this really has been a pleasant surprise.  I think its one of the better shows on TV these days.  The writing, acting and cinematography have all been very good.

 

Though I do like time travel stories, the reason why I didn't watch Outlander when it originally aired (or read the books) is that I had the impression that this was just another cheesy historical romance.  Fortunately its turned out to be so much more than that in almost all respects.  The one big exception is Jaime.  So far I find him to be way too much the stereotypical heroic protagonist of a cheesy historical romance.  While his virginity was a nice differentiating touch, it also brings up another problem I have, which is that Jaime seems a little too immature for someone with Claire's character and life experience.  In that sense, Frank does seem a better match for her. 

 

Perhaps because of all this, I also found "The Wedding" to be the weakest episode so far.  Though it had some great moments, it was the only episode that didn't keep me riveted to the TV from beginning to end.  Fortunately this last episode seemed to get things back on track.

 

I do plan on watching the show when it starts up again next week.  Whether I continue to do so will depend on if we get more episodes like Episode 6 (which for me was one of the best single hours of television I have watched in quite some time) or more like Episode 7.  I guess what it comes down to is that I find the show much more interesting when it is exploring how Claire deals with the historical, social, cultural, political and personal ramifications of traveling through time, rather than when it focuses too much on her developing romance with Jaime.  It's not that their relationship doesn't have an important role in the story, but for me it's mostly as it relates to these other aspects.

 

I'm undecided on how much attention I'd like the show to continue giving events in 1945.  I do think it was generally positive that we got an update on what was going on in 1945 in this episode.  But Frank's story seems to have come to a natural conclusion; unless they plan on having more movement between the two eras (whether by Claire, Frank or someone else).

[DittyDotDot]

I've been watching this show passively over the last couple weeks, never read the books and didn't know much of anything about the show going in other than a woman travels back in time and it was being run by Ron Moore. While the series as a whole hasn't done much for me, this episode was the first one that engaged me. I rather loved how Clair is kinda living in this romance-book fantasy and it all goes terribly wrong. I thought that was really well done. Most of the rest of the episodes have been pretty to look at, but the characters and the writing really didn't do much for me. In fact, I've been mostly wondering what happened to Frank and how he responded to his wife's disappearance more than I've wondered about anything going on in the 1740s, so this episode satisfied my curiosity. Not sure if there's much else I want to learn about the show now, but I'm willing to give it till the end of the season...maybe there's a mystery still left that will engage me. I am somewhat intrigued by the stones, but I'm thinking they're not really going to delve into that so much.

 

I get what you are saying. I am just being nit-picky. So far I have loved every ep of this series. I am just questioning Claire's motivation. But I went and spoiled myself by reading an article written (maybe it was twitter?) by the author and it answered some of my questions about the character Claire. So I will just let the episodes unfold and enjoy them as they are. maybe I will begin to "see" the epic love of Jamie and Claire?

 

I don't see the epic love of Jamie and Claire either, mostly I see infatuation, but love...no I saw that between Clair and Frank before that too when horribly wrong. Personally, I think shouldn't be about Claire choosing a man, but a life. Soul mate or not, it's not about what man Claire wants to live her life with, but what life Clair wants to live with or without any man. Does Claire want to live the life of a 1740s castle healer or the life of a 1940s once-nurse-turned-homemaker--basically, does Clair want that vase?

[WatchrTina]

I'm watching the marathon and I just spotted something new. I always thought that Claire's pretense about working for the Duke is revealed because she doesn't know that the Duke is unmarried. But actually, Claire blows it before that. When she is threatening Jack she says the Duke will be unhappy about Jack interfering with the Dukes carefully planned efforts "on behalf of the King." That's the give-away. I think that Jack knows that the Duke is a Jacobite -- or is, at the very least, interested in seeing a Jacobite rebellion and somehow profiting from the chaos that uprising creates. So when Claire talks about the Duke's plans "on behalf of the king" -- Jack realizes she is lying, or, at the very least she does not know the Duke's true motivations. That's what prompts him to test her with the question about the Duchess.

I'm kinda pissed the "marathon" ended at the cliff-hanger in episode 108 but I suppose it's for the best or I'd be up until 4:00am.

Edited May 24, 2015 by WatchrTina

[ElleBee]

Not sure if anyone will see this, buried down midway through S1, but thought I'd give it a shot anyway. I've just finished watching S1 through ep 8, haven't read the books, and am still blissfully spoiler-free for the rest of S1 and S2.

My question is about a couple of scenes in ep 7 & 8. In ep 7, after they have sex for the first time, Jamie asks Claire the proverbial "was it good for you" question, and she initially answers no, but then recants and says that it actually was good for her. I couldn't tell if she was being polite (especially since the whole thing was over in about 10 seconds) or whether she really did think it was good but felt she would be betraying Frank by admitting it.

Then in ep 8, when they're picnicking, Jamie asks Claire if things are always so great between married couples and again, Claire initially denies him ("it's very common"), but then looks at him and changes it to "no, this is actually unusual". Maybe it's because I haven't read the books but I just can't figure out, especially since it happened twice, whether a.) the initial negative responses are the honest ones, but when he looks so forlorn, she feels bad and changes them to what he wants to hear, or b.) the secondary positive responses are the honest ones and she's only initially reacting with knee-jerk negative responses because she's somewhat guilt-ridden over marrying someone else.

Can anyone shed some (spoiler-free) light for me? I feel like I may have missed something.

[CalamityBoPeep]

5 hours ago, ElleBee said:

 Maybe it's because I haven't read the books but I just can't figure out, especially since it happened twice, whether a.) the initial negative responses are the honest ones, but when he looks so forlorn, she feels bad and changes them to what he wants to hear, or b.) the secondary positive responses are the honest ones and she's only initially reacting with knee-jerk negative responses because she's somewhat guilt-ridden over marrying someone else.

Can anyone shed some (spoiler-free) light for me? I feel like I may have missed something.

It's mostly option b. She's feeling tremendously guilty for being attracted to Jamie and wanting him. It's a visceral connection... they're not just connecting physically but she's drawn to him emotionally and spiritually too.

Except that the first experience, on their wedding night, she finds it brief and physically not all that. Though the spiritual pull and emotional connection is there, even then, and she does quite enjoy his enthusiasm. She'd just like to have had a chance to get into it physically too, so to speak. So,yeah, she did enjoy it, but mainly enjoyed his response and the feeling of closeness and connection. Later, of course, she enjoyed it.

[ElleBee]

1 hour ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

It's mostly option b. She's feeling tremendously guilty for being attracted to Jamie and wanting him. It's a visceral connection... they're not just connecting physically but she's drawn to him emotionally and spiritually too.

Except that the first experience, on their wedding night, she finds it brief and physically not all that. Though the spiritual pull and emotional connection is there, even then, and she does quite enjoy his enthusiasm. She'd just like to have had a chance to get into it physically too, so to speak. So,yeah, she did enjoy it, but mainly enjoyed his response and the feeling of closeness and connection. Later, of course, she enjoyed it.

Thanks so much for finding me down here, CalamityBoPeep! It's hard to be so far behind but I've been enjoying going back and reading everyone's comments after I watch the eps.

Thanks also for your insights. Good point about how his enthusiasm probably helps fuel her own--I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. I was leaning in direction b. but I was beginning to wonder if it was just wishful thinking after her enthusiastic sprint when she saw she was a stone's throw from Craigh na Dun. She's clearly conflicted, but at this point in the story, it's hard to tell which way she's leaning and she's probably just as confused herself...

[CalamityBoPeep]

1 hour ago, ElleBee said:

Thanks so much for finding me down here, CalamityBoPeep! It's hard to be so far behind but I've been enjoying going back and reading everyone's comments after I watch the eps.

Thanks also for your insights. Good point about how his enthusiasm probably helps fuel her own--I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. I was leaning in direction b. but I was beginning to wonder if it was just wishful thinking after her enthusiastic sprint when she saw she was a stone's throw from Craigh na Dun. She's clearly conflicted, but at this point in the story, it's hard to tell which way she's leaning and she's probably just as confused herself...

 

Yeah, that sprint to Craigh Na Dun came after the near-rape and killing of the deserters, plus the conflict with Jamie over being left behind when she was still reeling from the shock of it. She'd already been feeling conflicted about acting on the attraction and getting attached to Jamie, then realized that she was just a tiny distance away from getting away from all the stress she'd been under, and the shock of what had just happened recently with the deserters. It was kind of a panic run, at that point. Not thought out... more of an impulse when the opportunity presented itself. Plus she rationalized that it would be better in the long run for Jamie if she went.

[ElleBee]

On 7/6/2016 at 8:34 PM, CalamityBoPeep said:

Yeah, that sprint to Craigh Na Dun came after the near-rape and killing of the deserters, plus the conflict with Jamie over being left behind when she was still reeling from the shock of it. She'd already been feeling conflicted about acting on the attraction and getting attached to Jamie, then realized that she was just a tiny distance away from getting away from all the stress she'd been under, and the shock of what had just happened recently with the deserters. It was kind of a panic run, at that point. Not thought out... more of an impulse when the opportunity presented itself. Plus she rationalized that it would be better in the long run for Jamie if she went.

Right... I wonder what her reaction would have been if it hadn't happened right after all that turmoil? I think at this point she'd still choose to go back to Frank, given both options, but maybe not so fervently. ;-) Some of it's probably also comfort zone that has nothing to do with Frank--she understands how the world works in 1945, but not so much in 1743. I also wonder if the near miss with the deserters reminded her of how thin a thread she's hanging on. Clearly Jamie is the only thing keeping her reasonably happy, and he's a hunted man. If he's killed, then she's completely stuck in a horrible situation with no more silver lining.

Starting the second half of S1 tomorrow--can't wait! Thanks again for the interesting thoughts, CalamityBoPeep--those were definitely some layers I hadn't considered.

[John Potts]

I was glad we got to see what it was like for Frank back in 1945 - even if you're Team Jamie, it was a nice reminder that while Claire may be finding happiness with Jamie, she DOES have a husband back (or forward?) in 1945. Also glad Frank DID take precautions on being told "Bring the money to a dark alley at midnight. Alone. You're not an MMA Champion are you by any chance?" (OK, that last bit may be my invention), because I was going, "That has GOT to be a set up!"

I thought the police were fairly reasonable in what they said - assuming they really DID comb the countryside, it's not surprising they found nothing. Even his Vicar friend thought, barring any evidence of a struggle. that it was more likely that she had run off with somebody (though I can accept that Frank wouldn't want to hear that).

On ‎28‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 5:09 PM, ganesh said:

Did Frank in fact hear Claire? It didn't look like it. Claire seemed to react to Frank's calling out to her though.

I thought he DID hear something, he just wasn't sure he hadn't imagined it.

On ‎28‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 4:44 AM, WatchrTina said:

Claire pretending to be a spy and playing the Duke of Sandringham card.  You have to give her an A for effort.

I'm glad she actually used her time to come up with some sort of over story. Yes, it unravelled as Black Jack questioned her, but it seemed to work at first. It went wrong because she couldn't resist getting a snide remark in on BJR before leaving (I remember a John Cleese training video on sales on exactly that point - "once you've concluded the deal, shake hands and SHUT UP" - too many people come undone by relaxing when they think they've "won"). It shows she's starting to realise that she has to take the world she's now in seriously and isn't treating it like a game. You'd think it wouldn't take five attempted rapes, a couple of death threats and one forced marriage to realise that, though

Although, on the subject of games, I did love the fact that when Claire asked, "What kind of a man keeps restraints in his room!?" he answered, "A prepared one!" I bet he has a ten foot pole and a set of iron spikes, too.

On ‎29‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 0:32 AM, HumblePi said:

There's something about this series that has disturbed me from day one. It's Claire's verbal narration of the events. Now, if there was no narration by her at all, I would have some doubts as to the outcome of it all. For me, the narration says that this woman (if it were a true story) wrote her story and had it published as a novel.

Jane Austen, George Elliot and the Bronte sisters were all writing around 1800, which is only 50 years in the future. If you need some sort of framing device justification, we could be reading her memoirs, written as an old lady.

[Camera One]

This episode was tense and a real roller-coaster.  I haven't read the books, and the way the narrative is framed, I do want Claire to get home.  I felt really badly for Frank, and it's pretty despicable of the law enforcement to think Claire ran away on her own. 

For a while there, I thought maybe he would also go back in time, which would be a huge mess with Claire married to someone else, and the Scots wanting to kill him since he looks exactly like his ancestor.  I would not want to see that.  If we're meant to cheer for Claire and Jaime, they shouldn't have made Frank so likeable.  

I am so glad Claire was saved at the end, but it was always like it was too good to be true.  While this episode was very exciting, it was also a bit too bleak to be enjoyable.

I liked Claire improvising and bringing up the Duke.  I wish she was allowed to play that out longer, instead of Jack figuring out she was bluffing almost immediately.  It's frustrating to see the villains always getting the upper-hand, and the hero always making mistakes.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Camera One

[Anothermi]

I liked this episode—especially for the change of pace. I appreciated seeing things from Frank's perspective. Claire did know what he would be going through. He got a great line at the police station! But he was also very respectful to Mrs. Graham when she asked if he'd heard her (that the time travellers sometimes come back). "I simply do not share your beliefs."  I also liked his literal-mindedness: "Travel through stone?"  We were shown a different side of him. 

I fretted a bit about him losing it on those would-be-swindlers, but it was not more than quite a number of men would have done in similar circumstances.  And it was followed by the fact that he'd spoken to Reverend Wakefield about it and who warned him about the dangers of succumbing to that darkness. Personally, I might have added "like Jack did" but the Reverend was talking about all men, not just Frank.

And I found his cries to Claire  wrenching—at the standing stones. At the same time part of my brain was telling me it's too soon for her to go back to the 1940s.  I also worried that Frank might "go through stone" but I remember Mrs Graham mentioning "certain people, on certain days, it allows them to pierce the veil of time" and I don't think that Frank was one of those certain people.

I was lulled by the newly weds canoodling and Jamie's straight forward question—is this what it's like for everyone? (and grinned at the 'no disrespect intended' aside) There is no doubt that Frank has reason to fear that she's" left him for another man" (loved the segue at that point).

The well practiced routine the Mackenzie men fell into  when they sensed they were about to be attacked was very instructive.  It allowed them to gain an advantage.

We got both danger and humour. What's not to like? I was especially taken with Murtagh saying poison is the only good weapon for a woman and Dougal (of all people) who retorts "...but it has certain deficiencies in combat".  Good thing they gave Claire a smaller knife and training in how to use it right then and there. She had a fresh memory of what to do.

Then Jamie and Claire go off for some nooky in the wilds where there's no one around—except the British Army! Duh, duh, DUH.  (I hate to watch rape scenes , so knowing she had the knife, and then having her use it reduced my anxiety.)  And Jamie having to be the one who's profusely apologizing to Claire. I believed her going into shock and knowing it but not being able to do anything about it. It gave credibility to her running towards the standing stone circle. She may have felt she was running towards Frank, but she certainly was also trying to escape what she had just gone through.  I couldn't blame her.

I was not happy about the impending meet up with BJR again. Claire was clever with the tools she had, but she wasn't working with a full deck. Too much she didn't know but he did. I almost thought she'd made it, but Jack is not easily fooled. (But he has a black sense of humour equal to his black heart—laughing when he realized WHO Claire had married.)

Thank you Jamie for a timely arrival. I don't even want to know how unlikely it would have been. I'd had enough.

 

[gingerella]

Okay, first things first. When I saw the artists sketch of the the mystery man who Frank saw staring up at Claire from the street that night, I jumped off my seat because I hadn’t put it together that it was Jaime. If I go back and look now, I can see the similarities but we hadn’t met him yet and as such, I just put it down to a cloaked man. Now I see how wrong I was, it was indeed Jaime. I know some think it was his ghost, but I’m withholding that front as I am not sure...But Jaime it surely was, more on this later.

I felt bad for Frank in the police station, he’d obviously been there for weeks and as he was supposed to begin his semester at Oxford right after their getaway, I wondered if he’d taken a leave of absence already. Later in the episode, when Mrs. last him about the Stones and he dismisses it, and goes to his room to pack, I was sort of shocked that he decided to leave Claire’s valise and belongings there. To me, that says he does believe that she ran off with someone else and he’s livid with her. That moment when he leaves the room, and her things behind, all I could think was firstly, he is an asshole and good riddance you petulant churlish fuckwit! Then I found myself thinking that he probably goes to Oxford and talks up with a secretary there (I’d say student but I do think female students were allowed in there at that time, or am I wrong?), I have no qualms saying that Frank isn’t going to be waiting for Claire, his BJR ancestry will make sure he blames Claire for disappearing because the men in his family are probably all assholes on some level or another.

Quote

I was lulled by the newly weds canoodling and Jamie's straight forward question—is this what it's like for everyone?

Yes @Anothermi, I too was lulled by that scene. Jamie is written with such a pure honesty that it’s almost jarring...He is so eager to know and understand what real love is, and to know if he has something special (newsflash Jaime, its special!).I was confused at first by Claire’s reply because she knows how rare and unusual their relationship is, but I think when she says yes, all couples have this, she is speaking through a haze of guilt. Guilt that she left a husband behind and is feeling things she never imagined she could feel with a man, a man whom she met only a few weeks ago. So when she admits it’s unusual and special he looks so proud. And when he tells Claire he might be able to finally go home with his pride, and calls Claire ‘Lady Lollybroch’, I am rooting for him more than I have rooted for a TV character before.

Wee William was such a relief to see amongst the heaviness. Sweet lad.

The wagon scene was so interesting in how they are high alert all the time. It must be exhausting to live like this, always expecting to be attacked. But I loved that after that, they taught Claire now to use a sgian-dubh (man, Scottish Gaelic is difficult to write) and just in time eh? I was going to say that Claire has been almost-raped now many times now, but was she this item, after watching again she must have been yes? Jesus. It’s so interesting how angry she becomes, at first I thought it was because Jamie couldn’t stop the men, but then she says it’s because she had forgotten about her plan to go back to the Stones and to her husband Frank, and I’m already yelling in my head, ‘Nooooooo, do NOT go back to Frank, sure the hygiene is better but the passion is not there Lady!’ Then she’s at the Stones and my yelling gets even louder...

The whole scene of Frank and Claire at the Stones was dramatic but I can’t eel badly for Frank because he doesn’t know what really love and connection is so, yanno, you snooze you lose in my book. I will say that I thought the episode was ending there when it went to black, so I am surprised that there more to this episode, but shit, Redcoats and BJR again?!? Enough with this guy already. I’m not clear why they arrested her when they all know what an evil twat BJR is, they could have just left her there, but kudos to Claire for using her time to concoct a backstory, however lame it may have been. SIDE NOTE: So how long has BJR been in these parts because it’s not clear to me how many years have passed between Jaime’s flogging and now. I ask because his scars are very healed so it would seem several years at least, but I doubt an officer would be stationed that long in one place. 

Annnd, rape #2 is it, or attempted rape #3 or 4, I am losing count but this is not Claire’s day. Again, I say I hope this rape stuff abates at some point, but I’m afraid it won’t. Jaime busting in to save the day startled me because how the hell did he manage to climb up there and bust n through a window? My heart is pounding though and I want this to be over.

ETA: Just a place marker reminder about Jaime being the Highlander in the street...more on that tomorrow.

Edited March 15, 2021 by gingerella

[Cdh20]

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

Okay, first things first. When I saw the artists sketch of the the mystery man who Frank saw staring up at Claire from the street that night, I jumped off my seat because I hadn’t put it together that it was Jaime. If I go back and look now, I can see the similarities but we hadn’t met him yet and as such, I just put it down to a cloaked man. Now I see how wrong I was, it was indeed Jaime. I know some think it was his ghost, but I’m withholding that front as I am not sure...But Jaime it surely was, more on this later.

I felt bad for Frank in the police station, he’d obviously been there for weeks and as he was supposed to begin his semester at Oxford right after their getaway, I wondered if he’d taken a leave of absence already. Later in the episode, when Mrs. last him about the Stones and he dismisses it, and goes to his room to pack, I was sort of shocked that he decided to leave Claire’s valise and belongings there. To me, that says he does believe that she ran off with someone else and he’s livid with her. That moment when he leaves the room, and her things behind, all I could think was firstly, he is an asshole and good riddance you petulant churlish fuckwit! Then I found myself thinking that he probably goes to Oxford and talks up with a secretary there (I’d say student but I do think female students were allowed in there at that time, or am I wrong?), I have no qualms saying that Frank isn’t going to be waiting for Claire, his BJR ancestry will make sure he blames Claire for disappearing because the men in his family are probably all assholes on some level or another.

Yes @Anothermi, I too was lulled by that scene. Jamie is written with such a pure honesty that it’s almost jarring...He is so eager to know and understand what real love is, and to know if he has something special (newsflash Jaime, its special!).I was confused at first by Claire’s reply because she knows how rare and unusual their relationship is, but I think when she says yes, all couples have this, she is speaking through a haze of guilt. Guilt that she left a husband behind and is feeling things she never imagined she could feel with a man, a man whom she met only a few weeks ago. So when she admits it’s unusual and special he looks so proud. And when he tells Claire he might be able to finally go home with his pride, and calls Claire ‘Lady Lollybroch’, I am rooting for him more than I have rooted for a TV character before.

Wee William was such a relief to see amongst the heaviness. Sweet lad.

The wagon scene was so interesting in how they are high alert all the time. It must be exhausting to live like this, always expecting to be attacked. But I loved that after that, they taught Claire now to use a sgian-dubh (man, Scottish Gaelic is difficult to write) and just in time eh? I was going to say that Claire has been almost-raped now many times now, but was she this item, after watching again she must have been yes? Jesus. It’s so interesting how angry she becomes, at first I thought it was because Jamie couldn’t stop the men, but then she says it’s because she had forgotten about her plan to go back to the Stones and to her husband Frank, and I’m already yelling in my head, ‘Nooooooo, do NOT go back to Frank, sure the hygiene is better but the passion is not there Lady!’ Then she’s at the Stones and my yelling gets even louder...

The whole scene of Frank and Claire at the Stones was dramatic but I can’t eel badly for Frank because he doesn’t know what really love and connection is so, yanno, you snooze you lose in my book. I will say that I thought the episode was ending there when it went to black, so I am surprised that there more to this episode, but shit, Redcoats and BJR again?!? Enough with this guy already. I’m not clear why they arrested her when they all know what an evil twat BJR is, they could have just left her there, but kudos to Claire for using her time to concoct a backstory, however lame it may have been. SIDE NOTE: So how long has BJR been in these parts because it’s not clear to me how many years have passed between Jaime’s flogging and now. I ask because his scars are very healed so it would seem several years at least, but I doubt an officer would be stationed that long in one place. 

Annnd, rape #2 is it, or attempted rape #3 or 4, I am losing count but this is not Claire’s day. Again, I say I hope this rape stuff abates at some point, but I’m afraid it won’t. Jaime busting in to save the day startled me because how the hell did he manage to climb up there and bust n through a window? My heart is pounding though and I want this to be over.

ETA: Just a place marker reminder about Jaime being the Highlander in the street...more on that tomorrow.

I will answers some of your questions. First off everything in this show comes back around so Frank seeing that ghost in the street is one of them. Claire was not raped, although it is hard to tell that, & she is so upset mostly because she has killed someone. Jamie was flogged 3 or 4 years earlier so Jack has been in Scotland awhile! 

You made me laugh with your comment about Claire returning to 1945 for the hygiene, because that is a big thing for many posters here on an ongoing rant. How can Claire choose to live with out hot baths, electricity, shampoo, etc. DUH-Jamie! Some of them must have missed noticing the passion, & pure soul connection that Jamie & Claire have! 

I did think the scene with Frank & Claire yelling for each other at the stones was well done, although I doubted they could hear each other across time.

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I did think the scene with Frank & Claire yelling for each other at the stones was well done, although I doubted they could hear each other across time.

Given that I don't actually believe in time travel; and given what they showed us (audio included in "showed"); I accepted that they each heard something that they knew to be the other's presence.  It's the closest they could get to a long distance call!  (that's for you @Pallas) It was a bad connection but you recognize the voice at the other end. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Anothermi

[SassAndSnacks]

This one isn't a favorite of mine.  I'm also really grumpy today, thus I'll keep my comments to a minimum so that I'm not overly critical.

Too much Frank.  Too much sexual assault.  Hated the dramatic running to the rocks yelling Frank's name (blech, cringe...though the scenery was lovely).  I love this part of the book and the adaptation was no good for me.

One high note - loved the story of the water horse and the set up for the skirmish with the Grants.  

The rest, meh. 

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

That moment when he leaves the room, and her things behind, all I could think was firstly, he is an asshole and good riddance you petulant churlish fuckwit! Then I found myself thinking that he probably goes to Oxford and talks up with a secretary there (I’d say student but I do think female students were allowed in there at that time, or am I wrong?), I have no qualms saying that Frank isn’t going to be waiting for Claire, his BJR ancestry will make sure he blames Claire for disappearing because the men in his family are probably all assholes on some level or another.

Hear, hear!!  

[Cdh20]

Interestingly when I watched with my hubby ( after I’d seen those first 3 seasons several times already) he asked during the Wedding episode “ What  is Frank up to? “ which admittedly I didn’t give a s*** about because I, oops, Claire had married Jamie!  I felt Frank’s parts were longer than necessary but I did like seeing what he was up to. But I was annoyed that Claire still wanted to go back.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, SassAndSnacks said:

This one isn't a favorite of mine.  I'm also really grumpy today, thus I'll keep my comments to a minimum so that I'm not overly critical.

Too much Frank.  Too much sexual assault.  Hated the dramatic running to the rocks yelling Frank's name (blech, cringe...though the scenery was lovely).  I love this part of the book and the adaptation was no good for me.

One high note - loved the story of the water horse and the set up for the skirmish with the Grants.  

The rest, meh. 

Hear, hear!!  

I'm loving your comments but I'm not sure what this is about, but it feels like maybe too much info for our delicate unspoiled ears? I'm going to forget about it until it happens! 😉 

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

Interestingly when I watched with my hubby ( after I’d seen those first 3 seasons several times already) he asked during the Wedding episode “ What  is Frank up to? “ which admittedly I didn’t give a s*** about because I, oops, Claire had married Jamie!  I felt Frank’s parts were longer than necessary but I did like seeing what he was up to. But I was annoyed that Claire still wanted to go back.

Aye lass, I ken what you mean here!

I said I would write more about the WANTED notice in the police station and realizing that it was indeed Jaime, I mean, it could be not other, right?!? I know @Pallas referred to him as Jamie's ghost, but I'm not going to go there just yet. I'm not sure why, but I prefer to be open to all options at this point in time (Time being relative, as we now know!). Anyway, this got me wondering if Jaime and Claire knew one another before, like perhaps they've been soul mates across time over several life times, and somehow his spirit (okay spirit sounds a lot like ghost doesn't it, maybe time travelers can be ephemeral at times, who knows?!) has come forward to the 1940's to call Claire back to him, so that they can pick up again in the 1740's? Maybe only one of them is able to remember the other at any given time? So it was Jaime's turn to call her back to him? Maybe the situation reverses if she goes forward again at some point? Though when Claire falls through the Stones, she remembers Frank and her life there very clearly so it's not as if she doesn't have memory of her 'before', so why would she lose her memory of 'before' if there was indeed a 'before' with Jaime that she'd already lived? Am I sounding like I've quaffed too much Rheinish wine or whiskey, because I feel like what I'm typing doesn't make any sense either, but then again, I'm trying to make sense out of time travel so...The only other thing I can think of is that it IS Jaime's ghost and he forever finds Claire as she's reborn each lifetime, and he tries to call her back to him. This might also make sense because he's been the one from the get go who recognizes the level of connection they have. She has been attracted to him since she started tending his wounds, but she didn't really fall in love with him until the wedding night so maybe Jaime carries this great love on his shoulders when Claire is moving through other time periods?

Anyway, I'm not wanting anyone to tell me I'm right or wrong and thus spoiler me, I'm more thinking aloud and wondering, does any of this make any sense and does anyone else think these things?

[SassAndSnacks]

39 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I'm loving your comments but I'm not sure what this is about, but it feels like maybe too much info for our delicate unspoiled ears? I'm going to forget about it until it happens! 😉 

Not a spoiler! This was the story Rupert was telling in the scene by the fire when everyone senses an attack was coming. The Grants are the clan that attacked them. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by SassAndSnacks

[Anothermi]

16 hours ago, Anothermi said:

The well practiced routine the Mackenzie men fell into  when they sensed they were about to be attacked was very instructive.  It allowed them to gain an advantage.

 

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

One high note - loved the story of the water horse and the set up for the skirmish with the Grants.  

 

7 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Not a spoiler!

 Further to @SassAndSnacks comment above:

@gingerella  These two quotes are about what happened this episode. I don't remember hearing that it was the Grants who raided them, but I think Jamie told Claire who they were after. I just didn't catch it.  

The scene started with Tweedle Dee (the fat one, not the stupid one, who can be Tweedle Dumb) telling a story about a builder and  the water horse at the fireside. Soon after the actual horses start being skittish and we see subtle changes in the Mackenzie men's behaviour—all the while pretending to be listening to Tweedle Dee's story about the water horse, never skipping a beat... until the attack which they were preparing for. 

I've decided to keep the nicknames, but thanks for Tweedle Dee's real name SassSndSnacks: Rupert.  I remembered that Tweedle Dumb is Kevin, but his nickname fits even better. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Anothermi

[SassAndSnacks]

6 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I don’t remember hearing that it was the Grants who raided them, but I think Jamie told Claire who they were after.

I believe Dougal said it during the hurrahs after the foiled raid. Something about good fun with the Grants or various words to that effect.

[gingerella]

12 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I've decided to keep the nicknames, but thanks for Tweedle Dee's real name SassSndSnacks: Rupert.  I remembered that Tweedle Dumb is Kevin, but his nickname fits even better. 

Okay, so Rupert is the taller, fatter, nicer one that Claire thanks for the effort he made in getting her ring made, yes? And the other one, who was showing her how best to use a knife to defend herself, that's Angus, yes? I think that'll stick now!

I really liked the way Rupert was telling the story, it was such a sing-song calm timber in his voice, but I think I wasn't paying attention to what he was saying as much as I was to what the set up was.

ETA: Speaking of Angus...he of the often 'oral sex' mugging and comments...I'm sort of surprised that he's constantly making crude jokes and comments about oral sex. Given the time period I guess I'm just surprised that this is on the menu given that the menfolk all seem to have experiences that tell them women don't generally like sex... Just something I noticed. Then again, we had a oral scene early on in GoT with Jon Snow and Ygritte, that I thought, maybe you guys ought to bathe in those hot springs first, just sayin'...

Edited March 15, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

10 minutes ago, gingerella said:

And the other one, who was showing her how best to use a knife to defend herself, that's Angus, yes?

Ah right. Not Kevin. (is there a Kevin?) Angus is Tweedle Dumb. 

[SassAndSnacks]

10 minutes ago, gingerella said:

but I think I wasn't paying attention to what he was saying as much as I was to what the set up was.

I missed it the first time around, too. It was only upon a rewatch that it struck my attention and recognized the water horse reference thanks to a folklore class I took in undergrad. Amazing detail, Show!

[Camera One]

Rewatching the last episode was tiresome, but the Frank stuff in this episode brought me back.  I like Jaime but the whole love plot reminded me of Harlequin romance covers, and the whole Claire/Frank near-miss across time but not space felt way more epic.  All the rape attempts were hard to watch as well, even on second viewing.  

[Anothermi]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Rewatching the last episode was tiresome, but the Frank stuff in this episode brought me back.  I like Jaime but the whole love plot reminded me of Harlequin romance covers, and the whole Claire/Frank near-miss across time but not space felt way more epic.  All the rape attempts were hard to watch as well, even on second viewing.  

I have had the same thought about how the Claire/ Jamie love plot is being portrayed.  I AM rooting for them, but I believed the desperation in Frank's voice when he was calling for her through the Stone. Something he didn't believe in but was willing to try with full commitment—despite his rejection of the concept.

Ditto on your feelings about the repeated rape attempts. 

[gingerella]

38 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I have had the same thought about how the Claire/ Jamie love plot is being portrayed.  I AM rooting for them, but I believed the desperation in Frank's voice when he was calling for her through the Stone. Something he didn't believe in but was willing to try with full commitment—despite his rejection of the concept.

Ditto on your feelings about the repeated rape attempts. 

On the love match, I'm willing to believe, at this point, that J&C are end game and that there is a bigger story there that we will see unfold, hence I'm accepting of how things are shaping up. It's interesting you both felt what you did about Frank at the Stones because to me it felt like 'too little too late'.

Ditto the rape attempts. Enough, we get it.

[Anothermi]

I can't believe I forgot to mention this in my other posts.  The introduction of Hugh Munro. The man who had his tongue cut out and who came to tell Jamie about Horrocks.

I hope we get to see him again - Hugh I mean. Score another one for the perfect Jamie. He has bothered to learn how to communicate in with Hugh's form of sign language. Many wouldn't bother. (Claire, I'm looking at you and your lack of interest in learning Gaelic!)

And that amazing wedding gift! Perfect for Claire and her archeology background. I'm a sucker for amber to start with. But with a whole dragonfly embedded in it? WOW.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

20 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I can't believe I forgot to mention this in my other posts.  The introduction of Hugh Munro. The man who h ad his tongue cut out and who came to tell Jamie about Horrocks.

I hope we get to see him again - Hugh I mean. Score another one for the perfect Jamie. He has bothered to learn how to communicate in with Hugh's form of sign language. Many wouldn't bother. (Claire, I'm looking at you and your lack of interest in learning Gaelic!)

And that amazing wedding gift! Perfect for Claire and her archeology background. I'm a sucker for amber to start with. But with a whole dragonfly embedded in it? WOW.

Thank you for reminding me of this and YES to the above! What an interesting guy Hugh is, and Jamie treated him as an equal, not with pity, because Jamie is someone who treats others as equals...again making him different, although the rest of the men seemed to think well of Hugh too. ETA: I also think it's another parallel where Jaime treat this man who had his tongue cut out, with dignity and respect, and he likely sees a similarity between Hugh, who lost his tongue, with himself and his scarred back. He talks to Claire about his back because she doesn't pity him, and he in turn does not pity Hugh, where most would.

Ditto the wedding gift. I assume it's amber since she said a dragonfly was in it. I'll confess I thought she said 'dragon glass' and I groaned, 'oh no, not again!', but thankfully I was wrong!

Edited March 19, 2021 by gingerella