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S01.E08: Both Sides Now


Athena
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I couldn’t quite see the weapon he was using.  Could anyone tell what it was?

According to the PreviouslyTV recap that weapon was . . .  wait for it . . . a "BlackJack."   I googled it and it is described as a "small easily concealed club weapon" used by law enforecment.

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Interesting episode. At first I thought there was too much Frank but it did make me feel sorry for him, which I guess is partly what they were going for. The scene at Craigh Na Dun was beautifully shot and worth sitting through all the Frank scenes before it.

 

I was so glad to see the scene with the Grants attacking them and then the Highlanders teaching Claire to defend herself, it is one of my favourite parts of the book, I wish it had been longer and more involved but I will take what I can get. It was great how they depicted the HIghlanders moving to their weapons while Rupert carried on with his story - not missing a beat.

 

April 4 is so far away, even though I know what happens next, there are so many good bits to still come that the wait is going to be dreadful.

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I thought it seemed a bit contrived that she avoided two near rapes in the nick of time - not that I want to see her raped mind you. The near nipple cut wasn't necessary for me to know BJR is a sadist.

 

Claire not pulling off the Sandringham stuff (and her alcohol problem) definitely takes her out of the Mary Sue territory I've seen her accused of. I thought Catriona, Sam and Tobias all excelled in this episode.  Catriona has a really expressive face and eyes.

Edited by insubordination
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I loved how 1940, even though it's in the future is Claire's past, and it gets the darker tone to just be able to look at the grass to know who was running up the hill when.

 

Also, I think my ovaries may have exploded with Jaime's last line.

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I think this was my least favourite episode of the season, but I am going to rewatch a couple of times in the next few days, so my opinions may evolve.  I though there was way to much focus on Frank - I would have prefered that the series stay mainly from Claires POV.  In the second episode we got flashes of Frank, and it was left to the viewer to decide if that was Claire's vision or what was really happening in the 40's.  I liked that much better than the cutting back and forth, and for the first time found myself walking away from the TV.

 

Just to be clear Claire wasn't raped by either the deserter or BJR. The director confirmed this in a Hollywood Reporter interview about the episode.

 

I'm very glad this is being confirmed in the media, because I feel that what we saw on the screen was Claire being raped by the deserter.  The way the scene was shot, combined with Jamie's reaction, made me think she had been.  If we're not supposed to think a rape took place, I question every production choice in this section.

 

I really enjoyed all the scenes of Claire and Jamie bonding, the raid, the fighting lessons.  So soon after the wedding, I love the idea of them now learning to live together and Claire working to find a place as part of the family, not just a reluctant guest/hostage.

Edited by Sisygambis
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• I really enjoyed seeing Frank’s side of things. <SNIP>  I was literally yelling encouragement to Frank as he beat up those bad guys!  It was great to see him as a man of action, and not just a scholar.  I couldn’t quite see the weapon he was using.  Could anyone tell what it was?

 

I'm pretty sure the weapon was a blackjack. Rather clever of the show I thought.

 

ETA: I see WatchrTina beat me to it.

Edited by Minervas Owl
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The "Duke of Sandringham" -- each time I hear the name, it drives me crazy.. Sandringham isn't in Scotland, Balmoral is. I don't get why a duke with his seat in Norfolk would be all up in Scottish politics. If the Duke has Scottish lands/titles, then he'd typically be known by them in Scotland (i.e., the Prince of Wales is the Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, the Duke of Cambridge is the Earl of Strathearn, etc.)

Edited by annlaw78
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I get why the Frank scenes had to be lumped in this episode. I feel like if Claire and Frank were both going out of their minds trying to find each other again, it would have been hard to root for Jamie to get Claire. Still, it was a lot of Frank out of nowhere when a lot of his scenes throughout the season did not really warm my heart.

I also felt there were too many almost rapes. I totally thought Claire got raped until I got to this thread. Still love Jamie though. I can't wait to see what happens next.

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I never thought the deserter raped Claire as there was no, um, thrusting (ew) before Claire's thrusting with the knife. I think he was still working the whole pants situation. 

 

I loved the knife lesson scene and the fight in the dark scene. And Dougal side eyeing all the smooshiness between the newlyweds. 

 

The BJR/Claire scene was great...she almost had him until she didn't. And then she got tied up and almost raped. I kind of loved BJR's face seeing Jamie in the window. His "Things just got awesome!" face. 

 

There was a lot of Frank, and I love Tobias, but it might've been a bit too much. He's great, though. And him beating up the thieves was well done. 

 

This is just quality. 

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I get why the Frank scenes had to be lumped in this episode. I feel like if Claire and Frank were both going out of their minds trying to find each other again, it would have been hard to root for Jamie to get Claire. Still, it was a lot of Frank out of nowhere when a lot of his scenes throughout the season did not really warm my heart.I also felt there were too many almost rapes. I totally thought Claire got raped until I got to this thread. Still love Jamie though. I can't wait to see what happens next.

I thought it was a rape. Jamie clearly left Claire thinking it was; Claire said nothing to assure him it hadn't happened. Her narrative seemed to suggest she was raped. I don't know what it is about shows depicting what pretty clearly looks like rape (ahem, Game of Thrones), only for that to be walked back or hand-waved away in interviews. If you're not trying to depict rape, then be clear about that. Whether Claire was sexually assaulted or not is not some minor detail -- it would be a traumatic, altering event.

. I think he was still working the whole pants situation.

His pants were totally down when she stabbed him. Edited by annlaw78
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I rather thought the first rape attempt played out in slow motion. It was hard to tell because no one was really moving, but it felt stretched out, like she was steeling herself to stab the guy, and it was one of those traumatic moments (like a slow-motion car crash) where time does stretch for you. For that reason, I don't think the redcoat raped her although it was close.  ETA: Watched again, and it's pretty obviously in slow motion. The guy is moving over her, and she's steeling herself to act in that second or two. Then it normalizes again as she stabs him.

 

Jamie's was going to be upset no matter what because Claire was in danger. She did take care of herself, in preventing it, but that was his job, and he failed her. He already failed to protect his sister

(as far as he knows)

, so to have his new wife attacked, he's not going to be fine just because she wasn't actually raped. I also think Claire would have been vocal about it if she'd been raped, or at least it would have been part of her inner dialog rather than just silently contemplating whether she wanted to stay or go.

Edited by justmehere
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I am kind of team Frank again after this episode - the scene were both he and Claire were running towards the stones and could hear each call out was one of the most beautiful, heartrending and evocative in the entire series so far. And that confuses me because I know enough about the mythology of this show that I am supposed to be team Jamie all the way.

 

One thing I really did not like was the rape content in this episode. Using rape in fiction to put a main character in jeopardy always feels cheap, porny and not earned to me. And they did it twice in one episode. Rape is an awful act that I do not want to see enacted on TV or in a movie for the horrified titilation of the viewer. That kind of thing seriously turned me off Game Of Thrones and I don't like it any better here. If they keep pulling these rapey stunts they'll lose me as a viewer.

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I don't want to know that a minor character is pleasing to the book fans...isn't there a book thread for you to talk about that? I really don't want to read even a veiled reference to a character or situation that is coming,

Claire really had a rough day! I thought with all the weird camera stuff that the British guy had started to rape her. Glad that isn't the case. Eta: it's almost like if you learn to use a knife, you'll have to fend off rapists. I know it's not really cause and effect, but it looked that way...

I liked all the stuff with frank, given how much time we spent with him in episode one it seemed weird never to come back to him. I hoped for a second frank had travelled through the stones too and gone somewhere else, but that didn't happen. It all is very unfair on him,

Do the scots not know about kidnapping? Why has that thought crossed nobody's mind?

Even I would have known better than to fall into that dumb duchess trap.

Edited by lucindabelle
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I was really disappointed in the episode. I thought it was a jumbled mess and the low point of the season. The transitions between scenes were so jarring. Way too much time on Frank and what was the point of the setup? To show he has a violent streak just like Black Jack and has no problem strangling a women? Ugly and brutal. Not exactly a point for team Frank.

Not much of a honeymoon for Jamie and Claire. Their few scenes seemed rushed and incomplete. The one love scene I thought was going to show a real connection was interrupted by a rape or near rape. That wasn't confusing at all. How convenient she just had her knife lesson. Who couldn't see that coming?

They saved the best for last with another rape and lets throw in a little mutilation for fun. Was ripping her shirt with breasts exposed and then bare ass really necessary? Threatening to cut off her nipple was just way over the top. We get it. Black Jack is The Big Evil. He's fast becoming a caricature. Then Jaime to the rescue with his "take your hands off my wife" was such a cliche.

Frank, Claire and even Jamie all did stupid shit. I hate when characters act stupid just so you can have these contrived plot points. The entire thing just left a bad taste in my mouth and not giddy anticipation for the back eight. All around frakking big ass let down.

Edited by Sasha
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I know what a black jack is so when I saw Frank whip one out to beat the snot out of those guys in the alley, I laughed and laughed because of the connection to BJR! It was totally not a surprise that he got attacked in the alley because they showed it in the previews. Way to ruin the suspense, PR team!

 

While I love seeing Jamie and Claire together, I totally understand why she ran straight to those stones as soon as she saw them. As happy as she seemed for part of the last episode, a few nights of sexy times with Jamie is not enough to erase her marriage with Frank. It would be one thing if she were actually a widow (and even then, she would most likely still have some guilt about being with someone new) but she knows that Frank is alive and that his probably going crazy trying to find her which just compounds her guilt exponentially.

 

Man, Claire had a really terrible day. First she had an arrow shot at her while she was making out with Jamie then their camp was attacked. The next day she was almost raped twice. No wonder she ran as fast as she could as soon as she saw the stones. I would want to get the hell out of Rapeland as soon as I could too.

 

I felt bad for Jamie too. You can promise to protect someone all you want, but when you are outnumbered, ambushed, or have a gun pointed at your head, there is really nothing you can do. The guilt he must feel about both his sister and now Claire must be terrible. I was so relieved that he swooped in to save Claire. Now I just need him to shoot BJR dead so everyone can live happily ever after! No? Come on, let a girl dream (at least until April!).

 

I love Hugh. That is all.

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We also got the pleasure of hearing what was perhaps the world’s first “That’s what she said” joke, courtesy of Rupert.  Somewhere, Michael Scott is happy!

 

I re-watched and got your meaning. Heh!  Timing is everything.  He quickly moved away when Jamie glared at him. I really love Rupert's voice and demeanour.  I wish the highlanders got more lines/airtime/development.

 

On a shallow note, Sam looked so cute this week. I thought in last week's ep that they put 'manliner' and lipstick or something on him and with his '80s hair, I wasn't feeling his appeal until he got his kilt off.  I still think we need to learn more about what makes him tick though, 'cos I can see why another poster called him 'Prince Charming'.

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It's all fun and games in the 18th century until somebody almost gets raped, and then suddenly 1945 isn't looking too bad, is it Claire? I love the way she was suddenly..Oh yeah I was trying to get home, wasn't I? I pretty sure Claire took care of her rapist before he got full access, so to speak..it did go into slow mo for a bit there, before she stabbed him.

 

I don't mind seeing all the Frank stuff that was previously left to my imagination. I like that he didn't give up but pestered the police continuously. I'm also sure that he recognized the "highlander sighting" as a trap, which is why he came prepared, but he also couldn't take the chance that it wasn't. 

 

As fo Claire in BJR's office, she was in a no win situation. All she knew about the Duke of Sandringham was his name. I'm sure she knew that BJR was trying to trip her up, but she didn't know the truth, so any way she answered could have been wrong. A better answer would have been. "I never knew about a wife. I only dealt with the

Duke. Maybe he thought his wife would be jealous." But I had all night to come up with that one! She had seconds, so I give her a break.

 

From the look on BJR's face, it seems that the only thing better than finally having Claire Beecham at his mercy, was having Jamie at the window. Is it April yet?

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Hated this.

 

Frank... I like him, but his character is rather unnecessary to this story. If they want to do a spin off... Frank Randell MI-6 agent, ok, but I think he is pretty much done.  I don't mind the whole evil thing because he was involved in serious stuff in the war. As for the rest of it... too much rape. Too much mustache twirling rape. 

 

I think this show has now exceeded GOTs in terms of rape. And not that show it isn't always the same woman.  I just do not need to see it and I agree it was not clear that Claire was not raped.

 

BJR is so mustache twirling - and silly. Someone put a bullet in his brain. Someone would have done it by now. But I am glad that what I was saying was true... marrying Jamie did nothing at all to stop him. Now where I am confused is why did she get arrested at the stones?  She committed no crime and she wasn't a British citizen?

 

 

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QUOTE

Why would the authorities think that Claire had run off without any of her belongings?

 

Because they didn't find her and they'd rather believe that than admit they failed. Wankers.

 

I'm changing my mind on this.  I'm sorry I called the cops wankers.  In retrospect, what the Reverend said is true -- if you've eliminate all the other possibilities then whatever remains, no matter how unlikely, must be true.  The cops *did* look for Claire.  They found no evidence of a struggle or foul play at Craigh na Dun. I guess their new narrative is that her ex-lover from the war (the highlander) followed her to Inverness, surprised her at the stones and convinced her to run away with him, leaving everything behind.  We know Claire's a spontaneous person -- she got married at the drop of a hat -- so it's actually not unreasonable that the cops have accepted the "run-away-wife" story.  Claire's very first voice-over in episode 1 talks about how people disappear all the time -- "wives run off with the grocery money" -- the cops have seen it before.

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Not my favorite. I won't comment much on content yet because I've only watched once and I usually change my mind.

I felt the look and feel was off. When Jamie is telling Claire to stay put I felt like they were using a green screen. The background looked like bad scenery and for this show it was very jarring.

Yes it was choppy as others have said. I had no problem with checking in with Frank, however I thought the stones scene was cheezy when they were yelling. It made me laugh. I also thought that Frank crying was completely forced and unnatural. Tobias is a great actor but he did not do it for me there.

The exterior shots of Fort William made me think of Dracula's castle. It was missing thunder and lightening. All in all the feel of this episode, for me, felt not as authentic as it had. Parts had a low budget horror, swashbuckling vibe. There was a lot packed in, they moved forward and covered many beats in the book. Maybe too many, too close!

There were some great parts though. The acting in places was great. Loved the Grants fight and Claire learning to use a knife. I will have to rewatch, especially the Frank/Claire at the stones because the yelling and crying did not do it for me on first watch.

Psst...I did like it, I swear. Just not my favorite :) My husband loved it.

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My notes:

-I'd be skeeved out by taking Ned's little (warm?) knife from his crotch to then use for my stabbing practice!

-How could such a small weapon - the blackjack - be very effective?  But kudos to Frank for knowing how to take care of himself.

-Love dirty angry Jehmeh better than cleaned up wedding Jamie (but I wouldn't kick him out of bed for anything either).

-Is the hat that Murtaugh wears a beret? 

-I love the police drawing of the Scotsman that Frank saw that night.

-I'm glad that Frank heard Claire calling for him, but I suppose he'll just think his mind/heart is playing tricks on him.  Loved that whole scene of them passing through the same spot in different times...wracked full of believable tension.

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The exterior shots of Fort William made me think of Dracula's castle. It was missing thunder and lightening. All in all the feel of this episode, for me, felt not as authentic as it had. Parts had a low budget horror, swashbuckling vibe. There was a lot packed in, they moved forward and covered many beats in the book. Maybe too many, too close!

 

 

I read an article -- don't know if you saw it -- where they were talking about going out and finding locations for the show and that they considered *this* castle for Castle Leoch, but that it was so austere and cold and prison-like -- even where it was situated was cold and windy -- that they immediately decided it had to be Fort William, since it seemed a more frightening and foreboding place, whereas Leoch had to be more welcoming (I assume).

Edited by Nidratime
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I also thought that Frank crying was completely forced and unnatural. Tobias is a great actor but he did not do it for me there. <snip>  Parts had a low budget horror, swashbuckling vibe.

I have to agree with you -- Tobias did not nail the crying-at-the-stones scene.  It took me out of the episode a bit because I felt sorry for the actor.  

 

As for "swashbuckling" -- did you hear Claire actually mention Errol Flynn in her disjointed musings after the attempted rape?  It's clear that "swashbuckling" is exactly the feel they were going for in that final shot.  Can I say, I loved the lighting in that shot (though I'm not gonna ask where that inky-dink spot light on Jamie's face was coming from.)  It reminded me of one of my favorite shots of Aragorn in Lord of the Rings -- in Bree when he looks out the window while listening to the screams of the Nazgul.  Small spot-light on the hero's face and grim determination in his eye.  Cool that.

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-How could such a small weapon - the blackjack - be very effective?  But kudos to Frank for knowing how to take care of himself.

It's a lead weight wrapped in leather, it'll drop somebody like a sack of wheat.
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When Jamie is telling Claire to stay put I felt like they were using a green screen. The background looked like bad scenery and for this show it was very jarring.

Oh glad to know I wasn't the only one who noticed this.

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Where women raped a lot in that time?  I think so, but two near misses seemed a bit much.  

 

I agree that there was too much Frank in this episode.  I get why they did some of it, but felt it could be condensed. 

 

Loved Angus teaching Claire to fight.  Also loved Dougal's side-eyeing of Jamie and Claire mooning over each other.  Bet he didn't see that coming!  Probably thought she'd bore of Jamie and want a "man" to warm her bed. 

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Loved Angus teaching Claire to fight.  Also loved Dougal's side-eyeing of Jamie and Claire mooning over each other.  Bet he didn't see that coming!  Probably thought she'd bore of Jamie and want a "man" to warm her bed.

 

 

He obviously wasn't privy to all the flirting they had been doing back at Castle Leoch. Dougal clearly doesn't know everything and his spies, that have been following Claire all around, are two insensitive to pick up on the undercurrents ... although Murtagh and Leoghaire seemed to sense it. Murtagh more so.

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Where women raped a lot in that time? I think so, but two near misses seemed a bit much.

Women may have fallen victim to crime, like rape, but by and large, Scotland at that time is a post-Enlightenment, deeply religious country, and neither Catholicism nor Presbyterianism condones rape. I took issue with all the attacks on Claire at The Gathering, because I don't see why, no matter how drunk, Clansmen would attack a random woman who was part of the Clan. I guess in this ep, the rape threat is more from the British forces, which, again, I don't know how much of the Redcoats-portrayed-as-Nazis that we see a lot on TV/in movies is true. I recall some pretty substantial outcry from across the pond when "The Patriot" came out, and the Brits are portrayed as committing heinous war crimes against civilians as a matter of course.

Edited by annlaw78
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My only thought, having viewed only 1.5 times so far, is that I wanted 0:50 of canoodling and bonding followed by ten minutes spent setting up the cliffhanger.

I'll maybe change my mind after I've seen it another 10 times but as of this morning I'm a little peeved with all the Frank stuff.

Also agreed Franks' crying rang hollow as well as some of Jamie's intimate scenes.

I think this must be a very challenging production.

 

Let the repeats begin!

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My notes:

-I'd be skeeved out by taking Ned's little (warm?) knife from his crotch to then use for my stabbing practice!

-How could such a small weapon - the blackjack - be very effective?  But kudos to Frank for knowing how to take care of himself.

-Love dirty angry Jehmeh better than cleaned up wedding Jamie (but I wouldn't kick him out of bed for anything either).

-Is the hat that Murtaugh wears a beret? 

-I love the police drawing of the Scotsman that Frank saw that night.

-I'm glad that Frank heard Claire calling for him, but I suppose he'll just think his mind/heart is playing tricks on him.  Loved that whole scene of them passing through the same spot in different times...wracked full of believable tension.

Murtaugh's hat is a tam. People have sort of turned them into a parody with plaids and pompoms and I used to wear one as a little girl, but yeah. A tam. 

 

A blackjack is just a smaller version of a billy club. You use it to bludgeon people, concuss them, crack skulls. I guess rather than using your fist. It's lead covered in leather, so it's pretty effective. 

 

The police drawing was hilarious. 

Edited by Pogojoco
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I can't believe I'm actually typing this; but I'm okay with the amount of near rape in the episode:

 

The first time was two deserters and set everything up for Claire being captured. She never would have run to the stones, and likely wouldn't have been caught by the English and Taken to Fort William. Deserters would do pretty much anything; they were traitors to the crown, and the Scots certainly didn't love them. Jaime is wanted for killing an officer, but that wouldn't happen with deserters. They saw an opportunity and they took it. And Jaime had fair warning too, about making out all alone in public when Hugh found them. Sure they are on Mackenzie land, but he's still wanted. And the English are all over Mackenzie land anyway.

 

The Second time mirrors the BJR and Claire met - he tried to rape her there too when he thought she was a whore in her shift. The reason why I'm okay with the near rape here is because of what rape is; it's not a sexual thing, it's a power thing. Jack already knows that Claire will take a punch, and he's not got instruments to really harm her with say, a flail like he did with Jaime. It's one way and always will be a way that a stronger person will be able to leverage power over a weaker one. Even the nipple thin wasn't too much - look at the delight he took at ruining Jaime's back. This is also the third time they have met up, and the last two times Claire has gotten away from him, and he thinks she is a spy and a traitor. I'm not sure he would have continued on with it, but rape is the only power he has to leverage over Claire.

 

And that's the thing, for me. There haven't been roving bands of rapists in every episode after Claire because she was a woman, and it was in the past. Or everyone needs to try and rape Claire because she's special and the main character (I don't think Dougal in the tower would have gone on if Claire hadn't hit him over the head. He says he doesn't go for rape, being drunk might make people loose inhibitions, and sometimes even personalities, but I don't think it changes morals. Of course you could say that Dougal does abide by rape, and just says he doesn't, and there is that whole persuasion thing, but that might be an indication more of the times than anything else, and is probably more suited to an all over Outlander Sexuality thread, or something.) 

 

My TL;DR point is, as a narrative device, Rape will always be a touchy thing, and sadly some shows do show rape just for the shock value, or to make it seem like the person being attacked is always in need of saving. I don't think that was the case in this episode though, and was handled about as tastefully as could be done, when rape is being shown at all.

 

-----

 

My light-hearted complaint? When the guy is on top of her, she stabs him with her right hand, yet when BJR finds her hidden dagger it's in her left boot.

 

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Claire not pulling off the Sandringham stuff (and her alcohol problem) definitely takes her out of the Mary Sue territory I've seen her accused of.

 

Oh, I was dying. She was *so* pleased with herself that she pulled one over on Black Jack. I was like Shut. Up. Claire. When he went on about the wife. Just say you send your reports and get your orders and that's that. She's sure as hell no Mary Sue, but Black Jack isn't just some thug either. He's fairly smart. As soon as he poured wine, I was like, "uh oh Claire."

 

I thought it was a rape. Jamie clearly left Claire thinking it was; Claire said nothing to assure him it hadn't happened. Her narrative seemed to suggest she was raped.

 

This is the thing I can't stand about tv. I don't give a fuck what TPTBs say about their show. "Confirming" this or that. I saw *on the screen* Claire being assaulted twice. Whatever they say isn't relevant. The impact of it to Jamie and Claire is what's important. I wouldn't have known otherwise had I not read it here, and I thought this was an episode thread anyway. 

 

I am kind of team Frank again after this episode - the scene were both he and Claire were running towards the stones and could hear each call out was one of the most beautiful, heartrending and evocative in the entire series so far.

 

Did Frank in fact hear Claire? It didn't look like it. Claire seemed to react to Frank's calling out to her though. I don't know why Frank didn't touch the stones though. I literally know nothing about the books so I have no idea what kind of show this is. Which is great. I thought maybe Frank might go back in time too and there would be some weird shit with him and Black Jack. But the woman in 1940 said only certain people can travel, which, good job show, for covering your bases. 

 

I think it's really interesting that the legend has survived for centuries. Surely, there have to be other people that have traveled. I don't know if this is going to be addressed, but we've heard about this now in both time periods. 

 

Then, I thought Jamie might shoot Black Jack, basically unraveling time. Which might have been cool.

 

I actually thought the show was going to end when Claire got to the stones, so everything else seemed like bonus time to me. 

 

I don't want to know that a minor character is pleasing to the book fans...isn't there a book thread for you to talk about that? I really don't want to read even a veiled reference to a character or situation that is coming.

 

 

Yeah. I know it's hard to cleanly separate show and books, but I'm really only interested in what is on screen and that's it. I'm the same way with GOT. I think I actually get more enjoyment out of it because I have no expectations. 

 

I didn't mind all the Frank because he is kind of germane to the narrative. I don't need to see him in every single episode, but I think it's important to show what's been going on in 1940. Now that he's left Inverness, I assume we'll see even less of him.

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I thought I would give this one another chance but I liked it even less on the rewatch. I didn't use a stop watch but when you take away the opening credits it was only about 50 minutes long. In that time Frank had 13 scenes. Thirteen! Jamie and Claire less than 3 minutes in 3 semi-alone segments. Each being interrupted by Hugh, camp robbers, and the rapists.

Around a total of 28 scene transitions with 4 being the weird fade to black screen. The twisted interrogation had the longest runtime and even it was interrupted by another Frank flashback. Where's the love story? Eight episodes in and I'm not that impressed with Jamie. He's sweet and all but compared to electricity and running water not so much. I get Starz for free with my cable but my sister paid an extra $30 bucks to watch this. She's canceling tomorrow. Much like Jamie and Claire's first time it wasn't horrible but not exactly earth shattering.

For a finale this didn't leave me wanting more. If they would have given Jamie and Claire's relationship more this episode and ended with Claire conflicted at the stones it would have left me wanting but to end with more sexual violence against a women. Just nasty. Come April I might give it another chance as long as its free but now I really don't have any desire to get the books.

Edited by Sasha
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My light-hearted complaint? When the guy is on top of her, she stabs him with her right hand, yet when BJR finds her hidden dagger it's in her left boot.

I was pretty sure BJR pulled that dagger out of Claire's right boot.

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I have mixed feelings about the "many" times Claire is confronted with rape in the 18th century in terms of how "realistic" that might be or how much the show might be focusing on that. After all, here we are in the 21st century, in a society where women have gained the vote, political power, economic power, education, and we still have reports of women being raped/assaulted at in the military, on college campuses, in marriages, while out jogging, etc. And this is even with a police force and a judicial system that is supposed to be a deterrent to criminal behavior. And, this is leaving aside, women being raped and assaulted in areas of the world where there are wars, terrorism, and insurrections and where rape is used as a method to terrorize and wipe out a people. This is also leaving out the cases of children and women being kidnapped and trafficked for sex and slavery. So, maybe not so unbelievable?

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Ok, I finally rewatched. The kid and my husband interrupted every 5 minutes. They never did any other episode so I don't know what the issue was, but I digress.

I enjoyed the scene with Frank at the police station. His speech about his expectations being met was really good. However, I could've done without all the speculation with the Reverend and Mrs. Graham. A brief scene saying he's got back to Oxford, Roger brings the biscuits, cut to him driving away with the scene at the stones.

For those complaining about bringing up a minor character, Roger showed up way earlier in the book and most of us missed him when he didn't show up in the first episode. That's where my excitement comes from. It's not a spoiler to be excited to see him finally.



I don't think Claire was raped, i think she was waiting for the right moment to knife the deserter. Jamie may think that it went further, but she's in shock, so he's worried.

Bring on April 4th.

Edited by SilverStormm
A reader drawing attention to a seemingly insignificant character is indeed a spoiler.
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This is the thing I can't stand about tv. I don't give a fuck what TPTBs say about their show. "Confirming" this or that. I saw *on the screen* Claire being assaulted twice. Whatever they say isn't relevant. The impact of it to Jamie and Claire is what's important. I wouldn't have known otherwise had I not read it here, and I thought this was an episode thread anyway.

I completely agree.  If you're going to show a scene that may or may not be rape, you'd better be pretty clear you indicate it is NOT rape, if that's what you're going for.  I don't feel I need to do "homework" to hear various explanations that, no, really I'm just being overly sensitive.  

 

The way show left off the relationship with Claire and Jamie, with her being resentful and angry with him regarding what I perceived as her being raped, and his feeling this great shame and distance between them, was not very satisfactory. I guess all is just to be forgiven, swept under the rug by his appearing in the window at Fort William. But why is the show sweeping anything related to the development of Jamie and Claire's relationship under the rug, rather than mining it? Especially if it's in service of a tacked-on, overly long, and unnecessary "Frank's Adventures in Inverness" storyline.

 

Was Claire raped? Did Claire realize in order to save herself and save Jamie, she'd have to let her attacker get very close to and maybe violate her in order to kill him? Did she have any concern for Jamie, or just herself in that moment? There's some interesting, complex stuff there, perhaps turning the "hero saves heroine from rape" trope on its head, in giving Claire agency in saving Jamie from getting shot.  For all of Jamie's talk about the protection of his body, was this her way of giving him the protection of her body, doing what she had to do get the TWO of them out of this situation?  Where was the omnipresent narration?  Why was Claire silent at this moment?  If there's a point to her narrative silence (she's shutting down, in shock, etc.), fine, but why then is there no follow-up conversation between Jamie and Claire about what happened, which, frankly, just doesn't seem at all like the relationship these two have developed, such that we've been allowed to see.  

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Women may have fallen victim to crime, like rape, but by and large, Scotland at that time is a post-Enlightenment, deeply religious country, and neither Catholicism nor Presbyterianism condones rape. I took issue with all the attacks on Claire at The Gathering, because I don't see why, no matter how drunk, Clansmen would attack a random woman who was part of the Clan. I guess in this ep, the rape threat is more from the British forces, which, again, I don't know how much of the Redcoats-portrayed-as-Nazis that we see a lot on TV/in movies is true. I recall some pretty substantial outcry from across the pond when "The Patriot" came out, and the Brits are portrayed as committing heinous war crimes against civilians as a matter of course.

I didn't see this particular incident as anti-English, but more about the lack of honor that deserters have in all aspects of their life.  First, they betray king and country, then they rape a woman and kill her husband.  It's designed to bring some doubt about the witness Horrocks that causes Claire to be left behind with just Willie to guard her, giving her a chance to run to Craigh na Dun. 

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I completely agree.  If you're going to show a scene that may or may not be rape, you'd better be pretty clear you indicate it is NOT rape, if that's what you're going for.  I don't feel I need to do "homework" to hear various explanations that, no, really I'm just being overly sensitive.  

 

The way show left off the relationship with Claire and Jamie, with her being resentful and angry with him regarding what I perceived as her being raped, and his feeling this great shame and distance between them, was not very satisfactory. I guess all is just to be forgiven, swept under the rug by his appearing in the window at Fort William. But why is the show sweeping anything related to the development of Jamie and Claire's relationship under the rug, rather than mining it? Especially if it's in service of a tacked-on, overly long, and unnecessary "Frank's Adventures in Inverness" storyline.

 

Was Claire raped? Did Claire realize in order to save herself and save Jamie, she'd have to let her attacker get very close to and maybe violate her in order to kill him? Did she have any concern for Jamie, or just herself in that moment? There's some interesting, complex stuff there, perhaps turning the "hero saves heroine from rape" trope on its head, in giving Claire agency in saving Jamie from getting shot.  For all of Jamie's talk about the protection of his body, was this her way of giving him the protection of her body, doing what she had to do get the TWO of them out of this situation?  Where was the omnipresent narration?  Why was Claire silent at this moment?  If there's a point to her narrative silence (she's shutting down, in shock, etc.), fine, but why then is there no follow-up conversation between Jamie and Claire about what happened, which, frankly, just doesn't seem at all like the relationship these two have developed, such that we've been allowed to see.  

 

I actually don't think all will be forgiven so quickly.  Claire may forgive Jamie sooner, but I doubt he'll forgive himself very quickly for not protecting her during the attack, even if he does manage to rescue her from BJR.  I anticipate angst in the next few episodes.  :(

Regarding a post-attack conversation, I believe she said something along the lines of her being afraid to talk about it because she was so emotional that she was worried she would reveal more than she wanted, including her time traveling. 

As much as I love watching Jamie and Claire being all lovey-dovey, it probably is better storytelling if they have some obstacles to overcome.

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I didn't see this particular incident as anti-English, but more about the lack of honor that deserters have in all aspects of their life.  First, they betray king and country, then they rape a woman and kill her husband.  It's designed to bring some doubt about the witness Horrocks that causes Claire to be left behind with just Willie to guard her, giving her a chance to run to Craigh na Dun.

Randall is pretty much just the latest in a long line of Hollywood caricatures that equate British Redcoats as sadistic, Nazi-type villains.  The type who believes the best way to interrogate a woman is to rape her.  Sorry if my prior post seemed limited to the deserters -- I was really commenting on essentially every Redcoat other than Lt. Foster and Lord Thomas.  

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I completely agree.  If you're going to show a scene that may or may not be rape, you'd better be pretty clear you indicate it is NOT rape, if that's what you're going for.  I don't feel I need to do "homework" to hear various explanations that, no, really I'm just being overly sensitive.  

 

Not to mention that the episode says "rape" in the warnings at the start of the episode. Given that this is like the 5th attempted rape in the series that didn't have those warnings... and that she went into "shock" -- feels like it clearly was supposed to have been something more than an attempt. Seems like they are trying to have it both ways.

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Oh, I was dying. She was *so* pleased with herself that she pulled one over on Black Jack. I was like Shut. Up. Claire. When he went on about the wife. Just say you send your reports and get your orders and that's that. She's sure as hell no Mary Sue, but Black Jack isn't just some thug either. He's fairly smart. As soon as he poured wine, I was like, "uh oh Claire."

 

 I thought it was a bad idea for her to drink too, she just doesn't learn!  lol

 

BJR is no fool and is not to be trifled with.

 

 

I actually thought the show was going to end when Claire got to the stones, so everything else seemed like bonus time to me.

 

Me too!! I totally expected that to be the cliffhanger.   

 

 

I didn't mind all the Frank because he is kind of germane to the narrative. I don't need to see him in every single episode, but I think it's important to show what's been going on in 1940. Now that he's left Inverness, I assume we'll see even less of him.

 

I am thinking the same thing.  

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Randall is pretty much just the latest in a long line of Hollywood caricatures that equate British Redcoats as sadistic, Nazi-type villains.  The type who believes the best way to interrogate a woman is to rape her.  Sorry if my prior post seemed limited to the deserters -- I was really commenting on essentially every Redcoat other than Lt. Foster and Lord Thomas.  

I do agree on that and I made a similar comment on the Garrison Commander episode thread.  :)

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I think more of Claire's shock was at killing a man.  She isn't a Highland warrior, she is a nurse.  She saves lives, she doesn't take them.  It's a pretty big deal that she killed someone, regardless of the fact that he deserved it.

 

I am going to re watch this episode again to correctly gather my thoughts.

 

ETA: I don't get Starz, was there a tease or trailer or anything for April?

Edited by mybabyaidan
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