S04.E06: Blow-Up

[chitowngirl]

A documentary film is made by the Brothers Sisters.

Airs beginning October 1, 2024 on Hulu.

Please keep on topic with things that happen in this episode. Spoiler tag things that happen in future episodes.

 

Edited September 17 by chitowngirl

[Affogato]

Blowup (also styled Blow-Up) is a 1966 psychological mystery[3] film directed by Michelangelo Antonioni, co-written by Antonioni, Tonino Guerra and Edward Bond[4]and produced by Carlo Ponti. It is Antonioni's first entirely English-language film and stars David Hemmings, Vanessa Redgrave and Sarah Miles. Model Veruschka von Lehndorff is also featured as herself. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowup
 

Set within the contemporary mod subculture of Swinging London, the film follows a fashion photographer (Hemmings) who believes he has unwittingly captured a murder on film.[6] The cinematographer was Carlo di Palma. The film's non-diegetic music was scored by American jazz pianist Herbie Hancock, and the English rock group The Yardbirds are seen performing "Stroll On".

—————-

i enjoy trying to connect the movies to the story, or learning about one I haven’t seen. It is a nice touch. 

[Jediknight]

It seems like Glenn was the target.  The bullet bounced off one of his metal plates.  Can't help but go back to Glenn's line last week upon seeing Marshall, "When'd you grow the beard, lassie".  We all thought he was confusing Mabel and Marshall, what if he wasn't?  What if Glenn knew Marshall from something, and he was the target because of that?

The trio also dismissed Marshall way too quickly, and he's been in their apartments.

The Brothers Sisters are fantastic.

[Irlandesa]

The minute they said this was going to be documentary-style, I didn't think I'd like them employing a gimmick to tell the story but I ended up enjoying this episode quite a bit.

I think the story got advanced and I understand these people more.  But they also used the cameras really well for some very funny moments.  For instance, I loved Christmas Guy talking about how he was cut out of Catch Me If You Can for looking directly into the lens and then looking directly into the lens.  Funny and creepy. 

Plus, Uma got some great moments in the ep.

[thuganomics85]

Oh, Uma!  Part of me wants to complain about how little she's been featured this season, but it's hard to when she pretty much steals every scene she is in.  All I ask from this show is for her to never ever be the killer or a victim.  May she continue on to angry rant at the trio over how they're presence has caused enough mayhem that she can't even steal the neighbor's newspaper anymore!

Looks like the two groups of suspects and their stories are finally intertwining a bit.  Turns out that the Brothers Sisters were not only pupils of the mysterious Dudenoff professor, but both Vince and Rudy from the Westies were as well.  Not only do they know one another, but Vince even acted in one of the Brothers Sisters student films!  Sounds like there is some bad blood there though, so imagine this is only just the beginning.  Wonder what will happen if/when they cross paths.

The shot from last week was from another sniper rifle that hits Glenn in the head, but bounces off his metal plate and hits Zach Galifianakis instead (thankfully for Detective Williams, he's alive!  Unfortunately for him, he's still got to do the film!)  Everyone now things Oliver is a target and Mabel is also in danger, but I'm also starting to wonder if it was actually Glenn all along.  Between him and Sazz, maybe someone is targeting stunt people for some reason.  Granted, the trio also find out there were cameras in their rooms this entire time and they get texts with their faces covered with a target sign, but I'm wondering if maybe the caller is trying to scare them off or something.

Definitely going back to suspecting Marshall as a potential culprit.  Can't quite put my finger on it, but he seemed extra cagey here and he seems to getting too much info from the now too trustworthy trio.

Oliver finally confesses his love for Loretta, but just gets an "Oh" from her, so he assumes it's over.  Yeah, I think something else is going on here.

So, not only do we have two likely killers, but now two murders to go with it since it's possible Dudenoff was in the incinerator as well.  Yeah, I don't care how good the rates are or how lovable/entertaining the tenants can be: I don't think I would ever step foot in the Arconia, let alone live in it!

[dwmarch]

17 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Oliver finally confesses his love for Loretta, but just gets an "Oh" from her, so he assumes it's over.  Yeah, I think something else is going on here.

Loretta was in the full-body cast, "oh" was all she could manage. Not sure how she answered the phone or why she had it with her while filming though.

[Yeah No]

Well, so for a few things I thought previously were part of this episode. One is that Dudenoff is dead and his body was in the incinerator and he was likely murdered in the building. The other is that someone is impersonating him and cashing his checks. I wondered previously if Sazz was acting as his replacement. I still do but now I'm wondering if it's maybe Jan. It's just a hunch but I maybe she figures into this somehow and if she's on the run how is she supporting herself?

But on the other hand, if Dudenoff supposedly spent most of his time overseas where were his checks going and who was picking them up from where? Were they being delivered to the Arconia? I'm thinking someone had to have been doing this for a while. We don't even know exactly when Dudenoff was murdered. It could have been a long time ago. And he still could be the ONLY murder in the building this season. Him being murdered leaves open the option that Sazz might still be alive.

Another thing I thought before is that the Brothers Sisters aren't murderers but WTF with them putting cameras in the trio's apartments without their knowledge? OK they consented to it but does that mean someone can just enter their apartments and put them up by breaking in and doing it without their knowledge?

Also, do we even know what connection Sazz could have had with Dudenoff? I don't remember if that was ever established. How is it that they just so happened to have the same implant from the same place? That's pretty interesting.

Last time I was trying to connect the Westies to Sazz in wondering if they were ex stunt people. Now I'm wondering how Sazz was connected to Dudenoff or them.

I don't know that I would assume from 2 implants that it means two bodies were in there. Someone could still have wanted to throw off anyone finding the remains. I still think that could be a possibility. They checked the serial number of the second one with the police. Did they ever do that with the first or did they just assume it was Sazz's? Now that we know that there are two of them we can wonder if the other one was really Sazz's. And why did Dudenoff have that implant in the first place? Something about that is a little too coincidental. 

Somehow I wonder if Dudenoff and Sazz are related somehow. Maybe as relatives?

There is also a chance that no one wants to think and that's that Sazz is or was involved in something that wasn't completely ethical. 

Marshall still seems sketchy but I still can't figure out what motive he'd have for murder unless that's part of a tie-in we haven't been shown yet.

This episode was a little out-there even by this show's standards. Something about the way our trio is acting is a little weird for me. Oliver suddenly realizing he could have been shot but then going back to being wacky and overdramatic like it's all a big lark feels like a caricature even for him.

[Snazzy Daisy]

Not a fan of the shaky cam technique. 😣

The whole purpose is just to give this episode a documentary film feel. 

[Yeah No]

59 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Somehow I wonder if Dudenoff and Sazz are related somehow. Maybe as relatives?

Maybe Sazz was set to inherit Dudenoff's assets and knew he was murdered because someone wanted control of them (i.e. the apartments) so therefore was a potential target herself, so she had the help of people to fake her death OR actually survived a REAL murder attempt, then went into hiding and had someone she trusted put a duplicate metal implant in the incinerator (Jan?)

Now that we know they have used the bullet hitting an implant idea a bullet could have hit Sazz in one of hers too which made her survive any real murder attempt. That's another idea I put forward weeks ago.

Someone that wanted control of Dudenoff's apartments or was afraid they would lose their apartment would have motive to murder him. Maybe he had a falling out with them and told them to leave or he just said he could no longer afford to let them live there or whatever. So they had him murdered then continued to fake that he was alive by cashing his SS checks so they could continue renting.

Edited October 1 by Yeah No

[phalange]

Lol at Oliver’s “nobody around here shoots the right people.”

I loved the documentary style of this episode. Not surprised the Brothers Sisters did something creepy like place hidden cameras because of a clause in the trio’s contracts. This is why you always read the fine print. 

So the Brothers Sisters, Rudy, and Vince all have connections to Dudenoff. Rudy and Vince were acting really strange when they learned Dudenoff was back. I think they have something to do with Dudenoff’s death. It’s possible Dudenoff and Sazz’s murders were unrelated and the killers of both simply had the same idea about putting the bodies in the incinerator. And the sauce family was absent, but I wonder if one or all of them were also students of Dudenoff’s. 

At this point I’m leaning toward the stunt doubles being the actual targets. If the killer placed those hidden cameras, they’d know it was really Sazz, not Charles, in the apartment and that Charles was still at Oliver’s. 

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, phalange said:

Lol at Oliver’s “nobody around here shoots the right people.”

At this point I’m leaning toward the stunt doubles being the actual targets. If the killer placed those hidden cameras, they’d know it was really Sazz, not Charles, in the apartment and that Charles was still at Oliver’s. 

It was dark in Charles's apartment, so even with cameras, they could have mistaken Sazz for Charles. 
 

When were the cameras installed? Before the trio signed their life rights away? Seems that WOULD be illegal.

[EtheltoTillie]

Too much happening for my little brain to follow.  I just ride along and take in about five percent.  One thing I noticed is that Richard Kind had his eye patch on the other eye.  Did anyone else notice this? 

[cardigirl]

42 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Too much happening for my little brain to follow.  I just ride along and take in about five percent.  One thing I noticed is that Richard Kind had his eye patch on the other eye.  Did anyone else notice this? 

He has said that the pink eye is antibiotic resistant and goes back and forth between his eyes.  But ... he could be lying I guess.

[Affogato]

42 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Too much happening for my little brain to follow.  I just ride along and take in about five percent.  One thing I noticed is that Richard Kind had his eye patch on the other eye.  Did anyone else notice this? 

He says the pink eye jumps from eye to eye. Said so in this episode and when we met him. 

[shapeshifter]

50 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Too much happening for my little brain to follow.  I just ride along and take in about five percent.  One thing I noticed is that Richard Kind had his eye patch on the other eye.  Did anyone else notice this? 

Yes. Charles remarked about it. Richard Kind/Fish casually reminded Charles that the infection moves from one eye to the other.
One of my adult daughters has been dealing with such a chronic eye infection (minus the eye patch) but hers is not being discussed in the context of a TV series murder mystery where every line has significance, nor is she the former acting student of a landlord dealing in illegal rent-controlled apartments in Manhattan, a landlord who seems to have been murdered. So his explanation of the reversed eyepatch seems a little too glib. Maybe?

I say “seems to have been murdered” because, again, we have not seen the body.

Joint replacement parts need to be replaced every 15 years or so. Could these have been joints that were replaced?
Maybe Jan was in Charles’ apartment when Sazz got shot, rescued her, cleaned up, and tossed old shoulder replacement parts in the furnace to throw off the fuzz.
— which would imply Sazz and/or Jan had Dudenoff’s old replacement joint?

Sazz’s “Tap in” message to Charles(?) in blood might indicate she was trying to solve Dudenoff’s disappearance/murder, and was telling Charles and the podcasters that it was now up to them?

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, phalange said:

It’s possible Dudenoff and Sazz’s murders were unrelated and the killers of both simply had the same idea about putting the bodies in the incinerator. And the sauce family was absent, but I wonder if one or all of them were also students of Dudenoff’s. 

Yes. As I was falling off to sleep last night I had this thought - There could be two "murderers". I think Dudenoff was the real and only murder and the other one was a ruse to fake Sazz's murder after she either survived a real murder attempt by the same person who murdered Dudenoff.

BUT - There is also an option C that Sazz's murderer (or attempted murderer) was a completely different person with different motives than the person who killed Dudenoff. 

Dudenoff's murder would have been committed by someone completely different than whoever was responsible for the ruse. Either they didn't know about each other and the situations were completely independent of each other or as I wrote above, they may have been related, but done by different people for different reasons.

i.e. - The person who threw Sazz's implant in the incinerator may have known that Dudenoff was already in there (although they were not responsible for that and may not have wanted him dead). They just did that to make it look like Sazz was dead.

Or maybe they didn't know Dudenoff was in there at all and it was just a coincidence.

41 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Joint replacement parts need to be replaced every 15 years or so. Could these have been joints that were replaced?
Maybe Jan was in Charles’ apartment when Sazz got shot, rescued her, cleaned up, and tossed old shoulder replacement parts in the furnace to throw off the fuzz.
— which would imply Sazz and/or Jan had Dudenoff’s old replacement joint?

Sazz’s “Tap in” message to Charles(?) in blood might indicate she was trying to solve Dudenoff’s disappearance/murder, and was telling Charles and the podcasters that it was now up to them?

Yes!

4 hours ago, phalange said:

It’s possible Dudenoff and Sazz’s murders were unrelated and the killers of both simply had the same idea about putting the bodies in the incinerator. And the sauce family was absent, but I wonder if one or all of them were also students of Dudenoff’s.  

Yes, on the other hand Dudenoff may not have been the one murdered. It may be the other way around - that Sazz was murdered and Dudenoff wasn't but his implant was thrown in there to throw people off.

OR maybe whoever threw the implant in there didn't know exactly who it belonged to, that's another consideration. They might have assumed they did but didn't, and didn't know the serial number told who it belonged to.

Quote

So the Brothers Sisters, Rudy, and Vince all have connections to Dudenoff. Rudy and Vince were acting really strange when they learned Dudenoff was back. I think they have something to do with Dudenoff’s death.

As far as the suspicious way Rudy and Vince acted (and other people too) may be because they know something about the murder, not necessarily because they committed it or were an accessory to it. If they are still benefiting from people thinking Dudenoff was alive they can be reacting that way because they're hiding the secret for personal gain and perhaps out of fear.

I'm thinking the reason a lot of people seem guilty this season is because many of them know something and have a guilty conscience about keeping secrets and/or are afraid their secrets will be found out and that they knew about who the killer is and withheld that information for personal gain. So all of these people that we think might be guilty are actually not suspects or red herrings at all but guilty of withholding information.

[peeayebee]

 

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

but I'm also starting to wonder if it was actually Glenn all along.  Between him and Sazz, maybe someone is targeting stunt people for some reason.  

Good thought. I wonder again (still?) about Dr Maggie. She's a chiropractor, but she might also know about metal implants. Maybe she refers stunt people (like Sazz and Glen) to the place in Bulgaria that makes the implants. Maybe there's something more nefarious going on with her. Is she getting kickbacks from the sales? Also, maybe Dudenoff did stunt work at some time, which is how he got the implant. Maybe Maggie is Helga, doing a fake accent and pretending to be Finnish. (Wasn't it Finnish?) She could very well have been Rudy's girlfriend as he said.

Maybe maybe maybe. I'll switch to perhaps.

I've said this before, but perhaps Sazz was involved with Dr Maggie in a professional way. Perhaps in marketing the Bulgarian devices. Sazz may just have been recommending the devices, not trying to scam people. Perhaps she found out that they're defective, loaded with lead or something.

Glen has a plate in his head. He's been acting weirdly. Could that be because of the plate?

Quote

Definitely going back to suspecting Marshall as a potential culprit.  Can't quite put my finger on it, but he seemed extra cagey here and he seems to getting too much info from the now too trustworthy trio.

Yeah, I also suspect him. ("Also" as in, As well as you, and "also" as in, As well as suspecting Dr Maggie). He may be wearing the fake beard and glasses to hide his identity rather than to simply appear more intellectual or whatever he said. 

 

9 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Loretta was in the full-body cast, "oh" was all she could manage. Not sure how she answered the phone or why she had it with her while filming though.

I missed something. When was it said that she was in a full-body cast? When she just grunted in response to Oliver, I thought that perhaps she was ill or hungover.

 

5 hours ago, phalange said:

Lol at Oliver’s “nobody around here shoots the right people.”

I loved that, too.

I also loved when Rudy was recounting how the Brothers Sisters (whom I will from now on refer to as BSs) eat apples weirdly. "... and when they eat an apple, they eat the whole thing. The seeds. The stem. That little sticker." I fully expected him to end with "the core," but saying "that little sticker" just cracked me up.

When Detective Williams is talking with the trio, someone says that Dudenoff left when they started podcasting. Did Williams say exactly when Dudenoff disappeared? Like 3 years ago? Or would it be 4?

It's always good to see Griffin Dunne.

[paigow]

46 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I missed something. When was it said that she was in a full-body cast? 

She was on set when Oliver called... in a full body cast. Oliver had no clue....

[AnimeMania]

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Oliver finally confesses his love for Loretta, but just gets an "Oh" from her, so he assumes it's over.  Yeah, I think something else is going on here.

She might have been getting "Jonk"ed.

[Night Cheese]

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Someone that wanted control of Dudenoff's apartments or was afraid they would lose their apartment would have motive to murder him. Maybe he had a falling out with them and told them to leave or he just said he could no longer afford to let them live there or whatever. So they had him murdered then continued to fake that he was alive by cashing his SS checks so they could continue renting.

That was my thought when Detective Williams said he's been cashing his SS checks at a bodega. I know bodega culture/life is real in NY, but I'd imagine a professor would use a bank at least to cash his checks. I think someone is intercepting his checks and cashing them to make authorities think he's still alive. 

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Someone that wanted control of Dudenoff's apartments or was afraid they would lose their apartment would have motive to murder him. Maybe he had a falling out with them and told them to leave or he just said he could no longer afford to let them live there or whatever. So they had him murdered then continued to fake that he was alive by cashing his SS checks so they could continue renting.

 And they would want to rope in Mabel so she wouldn’t want to solve the murder at the expense of her new cheap apartment. I still think the bullet bouncing off the implant would tear up the area of the body, shoulder, whatever, but realism may not be the point of this story.  However it seems more likely it would bounce off a head implant. Also in what we saw of the shooting Sazz’s shoulders weren’t where she was shot. 
 

Edited October 1 by Affogato

[Affogato]

I’m positive Jan is Chekov’s gun. The detective mentioning her in this episode confirms it. I am betting she’s  the one with Sazz’s phone and has set up the cameras and is hiding somewhere in the Arconia. 
 

there are a lot of possibilities for the rest. 
 

Edited October 1 by Affogato

[SoMuchTV]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I missed something. When was it said that she was in a full-body cast? When she just grunted in response to Oliver, I thought that perhaps she was ill or hungover

 

4 hours ago, paigow said:

She was on set when Oliver called... in a full body cast. Oliver had no clue....

 

3 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

She might have been getting "Jonk"ed.

It was a very quick scene - glance away and you might miss it - but just after the phone call, they showed her on set in a hospital bed, in the cast or maybe bandages.  I think they implied she was playing a burn victim.  Looked like an assistant was holding the phone up for her.

And if that was the result of Jonking, I don't want to be Jonked!

[peeayebee]

I just rewatched the ep. It was good to get some things cleared up, but not everything.

I completely missed the scene where we see Loretta in a full-body cast. I remember seeing it before, but I must have been distracted and for some reason didn't even wonder what the scene was.

I thought it was interesting that the three BS films we saw clips of seemed related.

The film they made in high school was called "The Song of the Ruptured Swan." I don't know if that could refer to the movie "The Black Swan" or to the ballet Swan Lake. Swan Lake is about a princess who's turned into a swan by an evil sorcerer. The sorcerer also makes an evil twin to trick the prince who had fallen in love with the princess.

The Black Swan also has body doubles and, I suppose, mistaken identities. (The Black Swan came out in 2010. The class with Dudenoff was in 2011, so maybe I should rule out that movie.)

In childhood they made "Pygmalion Defeat." The description of "The Desecration of Alice" sounded like Pygmalion, which is about a professor who, as a challenge, trains a Cockney woman to pass for a Duchess. 

So these all had themes of real identities versus perceived identities, and perhaps being manipulated by someone else to hide one's identity.

Another thing I noticed has to do with the metal shoulder replacements. After Gravey knocks over the box of ashes -- or spills the tea on the floor -- Charles says that the shoulder he's holding says "left" in Bulgarian. Since Mabel and Oliver said that the other shoulder indicates "left" it must have been written in English. So that shoulder (Dudenoff's) did not come from Bulgaria. 

I wonder about something Dudenoff said to the BSs. After he gives his Super 8 cameras to them, he says, "My bones are too creaky to lug those things around anymore." Is that significant since we now know he had a metal shoulder joint?

And I wondered about the text Oliver received. He says it's from "Carpets USA offering me a promo code for a free rug pad." I don't know why what the point of this text was. Seems like it would be more than just to give him an opportunity to tell them about hoping to get a text from Loretta.

Edited October 1 by peeayebee

[Chit Chat]

12 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

Not a fan of the shaky cam technique.

Me either!  There have been several sitcoms over the years that I wanted to watch but couldn't because they filmed this way.  It wreaks havoc with my vertigo issues!  

These episodes move along so quickly.  It's hard to keep up!  I'm enjoying the twists and turns of this season though.  

The laugh of the episode for me was Vince's comment that his bacterial pink eye hops from eye to eye!   Also, I noticed that Rudy flinched for a second when they mentioned that Dudenoff was back in town, as if he already knew that but pretended that he didn't.  I'm sure I'm wrong on that, but there was something about his reaction to the news that seemed a tad off to me. 

[sjankis630]

I will have to rewatch this in order to take everything in. The second I saw that cheap drone I knew it was not long for this earth. Who did it hit?

Someone on another board suggested that maybe no one killed Dudenoff. Maybe he died of natural causes and they burned his body (hence his artificial joint) in order to maintain their cheap rent. They knew that he would have been dead so they were surprised when they heard that he was alive and cashing his social security checks in that bodega.

 

[Affogato]

23 minutes ago, sjankis630 said:

I will have to rewatch this in order to take everything in. The second I saw that cheap drone I knew it was not long for this earth. Who did it hit?

Someone on another board suggested that maybe no one killed Dudenoff. Maybe he died of natural causes and they burned his body (hence his artificial joint) in order to maintain their cheap rent. They knew that he would have been dead so they were surprised when they heard that he was alive and cashing his social security checks in that bodega.

 

I love this for Dudenoff. The Westies could be using his checks to buy expensive hams. Alternatively Paul Rudd’s character, a former student, could be cashing the checks because he is poor. Is Hammy his? Glad she is safe. 

[KerleyQ]

Totally did not see the scene of Loretta on set in a body cast. How quick was the clip? 

So, if Glenn was the target of this shooting, now every victim had at least one implant in their body - shoulders and a skull plate. They weren't from the same supplier, since Dudenoff's was not from the same source Sazz's were. But, is there some doctor (like Dr. Maggie) who was performing follow up exams/care on them?  It just seems like that's significant. When we didn't know about Dudenoff being dead yet, I was thinking that, between Sazz and Glenn, someone was after stunt people. But Dudenoff wasn't, to our knowledge so far, a stunt double. But maybe that's something the trio needs to look into. They need to go back to that bar. 

I do want to see them follow up on the serial numbers of all of the fake joints that were in the incinerator and find out if those were parts that were still in patients or had been replaced. Perhaps someone got a hold of discarded parts and threw them in the incinerator? I've had this niggling theory/hope that Sazz is not really dead all season, so finding out those parts weren't in her anymore would point that way. 

One more thing, my son just pointed out - maybe Sazz wasn't trying to write "tap in," but was trying to say "taping," as in "someone is taping inside your apartment"? 

[Chit Chat]

31 minutes ago, KerleyQ said:

Totally did not see the scene of Loretta on set in a body cast. How quick was the clip? 

If you blinked, you missed it!!  

[Snazzy Daisy]

Theme — a camera can pick up a lot of hidden truths.

So, the tinsel turns out to be nothing. It’s just a prop in the opening credit of the Brothers sisters’ (BS) documentary.

How on earth the FBI & Forensics could’ve missed on the 2 left shoulder joints? The trio should’ve gone to the FBI for protection. 

The lack of investigation into the shooting at the photoshoot is puzzling.

Who would use a 720p hidden cam these days?

So, Dudenoff is dead:

• Would it be possible that the Westies never know the real Dudenoff? They have met an imposter. That person has been cashing in the cheques and sending them the hams.
• Or the Westies could be responsible for Dudenoff’s body disposal as they need to keep their rent-controlled apartments. For all we know, Dudenoff could have died of natural causes.
• Or Dudenoff could’ve faked his death and has been trying to sabotage the movie as Hollywood is beneath him. He thinks the BS are better than Hollywood.

Are the BS’ reactions when hearing about their pseudo father’s death genuine or fake?

The BS haven’t seen Dudenoff for 3 years — and that’s how long the trio has been doing their Only Murders podcast, right?

Vince is definitely fishy in this episode — the eye pad switch and his apartment window can now be opened. Both Vince and Rudy are actors, so they’re good at pretending.

Helga still remains a mystery.

Am not doing the handwriting analysis. But the use of black sharpie on white paper on both warnings is sus. Coincidence? 🤔

[SoMuchTV]

15 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

Not a fan of the shaky cam technique. 😣

The whole purpose is just to give this episode a documentary film feel. 

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate you and you deserve all good karma for your many helpful posts here, but your animated gif gives me what I assume shaky-cam gives you. 

[Affogato]

Dude off could have been one of Jan’s boyfriends. She does have a pattern of killing them. And she would want to complete her set with charles. 

[shapeshifter]

I haven't watched many soap operas, but isn't there a standing joke that an actor seen in a full-body cast or otherwise with their identity concealed in a hospital bed is about to be replaced as their character is recast? 
Maybe Loretta will show up at Oliver's, despondent at having her Hollywood experience cut short, but hopeful at just wanting to tell him, "Yes."

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

So, the tinsel turns out to be nothing. It’s just a prop in the opening credit of the Brothers sisters’ (BS) documentary.

Ah. I was wondering about the opening on their doc. I'm impressed you put that together.

Quote

 

How on earth the FBI & Forensics could’ve missed on the 2 left shoulder joints? The trio should’ve gone to the FBI for protection. 

The lack of investigation into the shooting at the photoshoot is puzzling.

 

Yeah, both things you mention would be major potholes in a traditional police/mystery drama. I cut this show a lot of slack re realism.

Quote

• Or Dudenoff could’ve faked his death and has been trying to sabotage the movie as Hollywood is beneath him. He thinks the BS are better than Hollywood.

 

That's very interesting. I did wonder about Griffin Dunne appearing only in flashbacks. So are you thinking that Sazz's murder is unrelated to Dudenoff? However, I'm not sure what his plan would be. Why put hidden camera in the trio's apartments and then send them threatening texts? At best, their reaction would be to leave town. That wouldn't affect the movie. And what was the point of shooting Glen? He wasn't important to the movie. 

Quote

Are the BS’ reactions when hearing about their pseudo father’s death genuine or fake?

I took them as genuine.

Quote

Vince is definitely fishy in this episode — the eye pad switch and his apartment window can now be opened. Both Vince and Rudy are actors, so they’re good at pretending.

Re the window, it looked like they worked for a while at opening the window.

In an earlier ep we saw that Vince definitely had pink eye. I don't know why he would now fake it.

 

[Snazzy Daisy]

13 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

So are you thinking that Sazz's murder is unrelated to Dudenoff? However, I'm not sure what his plan would be.

If Dudenoff died 3 years ago, their deaths could be unrelated, they were only disposed in the same way, probably by the same person.

Sazz was looking into the Westies, what if she found faux Dudenoff?

 

14 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Why put hidden camera in the trio's apartments and then send them threatening texts?

What if those texts aren’t threatening but just to warn the trio that someone is spying on them?

 

[Snapdragon]

48 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Why put hidden camera in the trio's apartments and then send them threatening texts?

I think whoever it is that put the cameas there only sent the texts because the cameras were discovered.  It wasn't until Charles was holding the camera and the Brother Sisters said it wasn't there that the threatening texts and pictures were sent.  So whoever it is must have been watching them at the time and decided to freak them out, since the jig was up with the cameras.

I do find it interesting that whoever has Sazz's phone (Jan perhaps?), seems to have a personal vendetta against the trio.  Responding to Charles initially with the "Not your f-ing friend" and then sending them the photos in this episode, they just seem to be going out of their way to be stick it to Charles, Oliver and Mabel.  So the three of them must have done something to this person at some point, which means it could be Jan and she's just messing with them unrelated to the murder.  

[paigow]

4 hours ago, sjankis630 said:

The second I saw that cheap drone I knew it was not long for this earth. Who did it hit?

Nobody. Charles closed the window. It crashed on the pavement.

[Chit Chat]

9 minutes ago, paigow said:

Nobody. Charles closed the window. It crashed on the pavement.

I went back and replayed this scene, and after the drone hits the window and drops to the ground, a man's voice yells 'What the f***?"  I wanted to make sure I was remembering it correctly!!  I don't know who it was though. 

[KerleyQ]

2 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

Would it be possible that the Westies never know the real Dudenoff? They have met an imposter. That person has been cashing in the cheques and sending them the hams.

Two of the Westies know him from before, though, Eye Patch Guy and Christmas Guy. 

2 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

Vince is definitely fishy in this episode — the eye pad switch and his apartment window can now be opened.

I thought they said, back when he was first introduced, that his eye patch switches, which he explained by saying the pink eye goes back and forth between his eyes. And he proved he did have pink eye back when Charles and his double went over to try to prove he didn't. 

[dwmarch]

4 hours ago, KerleyQ said:

Totally did not see the scene of Loretta on set in a body cast. How quick was the clip? 

[AnimeMania]

28 minutes ago, Snapdragon said:

I do find it interesting that whoever has Sazz's phone (Jan perhaps?), seems to have a personal vendetta against the trio.  Responding to Charles initially with the "Not your f-ing friend" and then sending them the photos in this episode, they just seem to be going out of their way to be stick it to Charles, Oliver and Mabel.  So the three of them must have done something to this person at some point, which means it could be Jan and she's just messing with them unrelated to the murder. 

Could be Cinda Canning trying to get some dirt on their next big story so she can one up them or figure out how they do what they do.

[Zanzibar]

30 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

I went back and replayed this scene, and after the drone hits the window and drops to the ground, a man's voice yells 'What the f***?"  I wanted to make sure I was remembering it correctly!!  I don't know who it was though. 

My closed captioning had Uma yelling that about the drone. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Snapdragon said:

I do find it interesting that whoever has Sazz's phone (Jan perhaps?), seems to have a personal vendetta against the trio. 

48 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

Could be Cinda Canning trying to get some dirt on their next big story so she can one up them or figure out how they do what they do.

Or Poppy? It didn't sound like either Cinda or Poppy, but voices can sound different if someone is, for instance, crouched in an echo-y bathroom talking into a ham radio with, perhaps, their hand cupping their mouth and the mic.
Still, it sounded more to me like Jan using a fake accent.

 

[chaifan]

As soon as Dudenoff made the comment about his "creaky bones" I knew there was going to be an implant connection.  I just didn't expect it this episode.

My theory is, Dudenoff has been dead for a while - years.  I'm going to guess that he died of natural causes, or a freak accident, the Westies didn't want to lose their rent control so they put him in the incinerator and have been faking that he's still alive all this time.  Someone cashes his social security check, uses it to send a ham from some foreign place, etc.  I think his death is totally unrelated to Sazz's (supposed) death and what's going on with the trio being targeted.  The Westies are guilty of burning a corpse, and maybe a little social security fraud, but they're not murderers. 

I would be shocked if the Brothers sisters had cameras in Charles' place at the time Sazz was shot.  But I do think it's weird that no one asked. 

Still have no clue how Helga fits in, or Jan, but I agree we haven't seen the last of Jan.  I still think Sazz is legit dead, but hey, I could be wrong. 

4 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

 

Am not doing the handwriting analysis. But the use of black sharpie on white paper on both warnings is sus. Coincidence?

Oh, great catch Snazzy Daisy!  That was one loose thread that has bothered me.  I think it will be brilliant if that was on purpose and there's a connection there.  If so, chances are we won't have an answer this season, either...

 

[Yeah No]

20 hours ago, Night Cheese said:

That was my thought when Detective Williams said he's been cashing his SS checks at a bodega. I know bodega culture/life is real in NY, but I'd imagine a professor would use a bank at least to cash his checks. I think someone is intercepting his checks and cashing them to make authorities think he's still alive. 

Yes that was my thought as well. Any NY-er knows that cashing a check at a Bodega is probably the easiest way to commit check fraud in NY. My father had it happen to him! He sent me a check in the mail for my birthday years ago and the bank found out it was fished out of a mailbox and cashed that way!

19 hours ago, Affogato said:

 And they would want to rope in Mabel so she wouldn’t want to solve the murder at the expense of her new cheap apartment. I still think the bullet bouncing off the implant would tear up the area of the body, shoulder, whatever, but realism may not be the point of this story.  However it seems more likely it would bounce off a head implant. Also in what we saw of the shooting Sazz’s shoulders weren’t where she was shot. 
 

Could be - but I watched the episode over again and I think the message I'm getting is that the Brothers Sisters and even the Westies like Glenn and Vince are engaging in a huge deception designed to throw our trio and the police off in their investigation. This is a new theory I have that much of what we have seen, including the shot that took place at the party was not real at all and just another example of the Brothers Sisters' deception theater. The stuff the Brothers Sisters were saying on their early film and later lead me to believe that, like this:

"Our aesthetic lived at the intersection of voyeurism and body horror"

Dudenoff: "Whatever you do keep the cameras rolling because chaos can be good. Chaos can be art."

Brothers sister: "We really took that to heart"

The next thing you hear is the shot at the party.

I now wonder if the shot was intended to create chaos, not necessarily to kill. It could have been completely fake. It got Galifinakis in his fat? Lucky it didn't hit any of his organs? The shot repelled off an implant? How convenient! Almost not buying it! If it was fake no wonder it completely missed Oliver - he's not in on the ruse!

BUT you ask, how can it be fake if they went to the hospital and all that? I don't know but I think these women could be masters of deception.

Then when the trio goes up to the production office one of the Brothers Sisters asks Oliver if being so close to death makes him feel more alive - It's all part of their movie, not reality only he thinks it is reality. He was never close to death, they just want to see how he would react if he thought he was close to death. They like fucking with people's heads to see how they react to it. It's all a part of their "voyeurism and body horror".

That film with the sisters and Vince Fish - another clue - the sisters do "his" bidding, they "spill blood" in "his" name, presumably Dudenoff (although we really don't know). I think they actually want the trio to think that they are the murderers in an effort to try to throw them off the scent of the real killer and/or because they like to mess with people's heads with "chaos art" just to see their reaction.

There may have been one person in the incinerator and the other implant is part of a ruse to throw the trio off again. I don't think both implants are ruses. Someone is in fact genuinely dead because we have to have at least one real murder here. Whether that person is Dudenoff or Sazz (or both of them together) is the question. But we may be being deliberately thrown off here.

This scene is very important so I'm copying it here:

Charles: Well, OK. Sazz told Jan there was another murder in the building and she was right, this was it!

Mabel: So what if Dudenoff killed someone, put them in the incinerator, and then when we started podcasting about murders in the building.

Charles: Dudenoff went into hiding.

Oliver: But he still needed someone to stop us investigating so he got the Brothers Sisters to do his bidding.

Charles: They tried to kill me, but they got Sazz instead. They put her body in the incinerator just like Dudenoff's first victim.

Oliver: Exactly! It's all so simple.

(Me: I think they are off but nice try!)

Then they find out it was Dudenoff's implant in there. It may be his implant but then again that may be the ruse. Dudenoff may have wanted people to think he was dead so he threw his old implant in there. Sazz may be the one that is really dead. I don't prefer that option but it's a real possibility. I prefer the option where Dudenoff is the one that's really dead and Sazz is still alive and is the ruse.

The Brothers Sisters are just loving it that they are suspects. That was their intention all along, to look like suspects so they could film themselves being interrogated as suspects. They could be faking shock at hearing about Dudenoff's implant being in the furnace. They may have put it there.

I think even the different camera might have been deliberate and put there by the Brothers Sisters. The whole thing with the messages from the "murderer" might be coming from THEM. Another thing to throw our trio off.

One thing I believe is that the sisters loved Dudenoff and would do anything for him and his interests. It could be true that they are protecting him from someone and the truth is that he's not in the furnace but alive and hiding out somewhere.

Brothers sister: "Look, did we murder? Sure but all we did was murder the rules of narrative storytelling."

I think that whenever our trio gets closer to finding out the truth another thing happens to throw them off the scent and send them in the wrong direction. I feel like a lot of people here are fucking with their and our heads the whole season long. This "film within a film within a film" is giving me that impression.

11 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

I went back and replayed this scene, and after the drone hits the window and drops to the ground, a man's voice yells 'What the f***?"  I wanted to make sure I was remembering it correctly!!  I don't know who it was though. 

As someone else said, my closed captioning said that voice was Uma's, not a man's.

Edited October 2 by Yeah No
Weird formatting error.

[peeayebee]

11 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

I went back and replayed this scene, and after the drone hits the window and drops to the ground, a man's voice yells 'What the f***?"  I wanted to make sure I was remembering it correctly!!  I don't know who it was though. 

I wondered if we were supposed to recognize the voice. It could just have been a random person down in the sidewalk (courtyard?). He wasn't necessarily hit by the drone. It could have just been a close call. And it sounded like a man to me, not Uma. I may, however, rewatch that bit.

11 hours ago, KerleyQ said:

Two of the Westies know him from before, though, Eye Patch Guy and Christmas Guy. 

Dudenoff played Oh Hell, so all the Westies (the family with the ham) probably know him as well. 

9 hours ago, chaifan said:

I would be shocked if the Brothers sisters had cameras in Charles' place at the time Sazz was shot.  But I do think it's weird that no one asked. 

I can't remember what the BSs said about when they were in the Arconia. They said they came to talk to Dudenoff, who was nowhere to be found. Were they there when Sazz was shot?

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I wondered if we were supposed to recognize the voice. It could just have been a random person down in the sidewalk (courtyard?). He wasn't necessarily hit by the drone. It could have just been a close call. And it sounded like a man to me, not Uma. I may, however, rewatch that bit.

My closed captioning said it was Uma's voice too. In my experience closed captioning usually always gets names right. It gets real people's names right too, down to the right spelling. I think they get some information from the shows on those details. But it's not foolproof.

Quote

Dudenoff played Oh Hell, so all the Westies (the family with the ham) probably know him as well. 

As a result of this episode now there is some doubt as to whether the Westies knew Dudenoff at all. Did they know the real Dudenoff or do they know he is gone but are faking having known him and only know "fake" Dudenoff who managed his affairs to make it look like he was alive.

OR were they duped by the fake Dudenoff into thinking they were the real Dudenoff? I don't know what I think yet but I was assuming they really were his students and knew the real Dudenoff. They may have been faking that he was still alive, presumably to keep their apartments.

Quote

I can't remember what the BSs said about when they were in the Arconia. They said they came to talk to Dudenoff, who was nowhere to be found. Were they there when Sazz was shot?

They said they were there that day, although I'm not sure if they specified a time. It's no surprise to me that the BS's (I love that BTW) confessed to being at the Arconia on that day. They want to look guilty and have our trio and police focus on them as a diversion to steer them away from identifying the real killer. Or just because they have a strange desire for attention for their film. But they have been so involved in all of this it's hard to imagine that they don't have some motive beyond their weird filming ideology to be doing these things and throwing them off. 

AND they may actually have been there that day - the footprint placed one of them there at least (although that could have been part of their desire to leave evidence of being there behind to make themselves suspects). How would they have known to be there? I'm thinking it's because they had advance information on what was going to go down at the Arconia. From more cameras they placed there perhaps?

As someone else asked above, when did they put those cameras in the apartments? Was it before the murder and the signing of the movie contracts? Was this a part of some grand plan of theirs all along? Did they also install other cameras in the building and if so where? If they knew what was going on at the Arconia because of cameras they may have had advance information on any murder that might be going down and of course would want to film it. OR any staged "fake" murder they may or may not have engineered themselves that they wanted to film for their strange weird movie.

Also the BS's may have feigned shock when the trio told them that Dudenoff's implant was in the furnace. They may know if he's indeed hiding out for some reason and want to throw our trio off the scent with that.

I'm wondering if our trio will get their break in solving this case by uncovering more cameras and their footage which might give them all the answers.

 

Edited October 2 by Yeah No

[Affogato]

All of the Westies may not have known Dudenoff but Richard Kind’s character did, for quite some time, and the sister Brothers.

 

(I liked the carrion eaters in the lunchroom, by the way. Just thought I’d say that).
 

 He seemed to take charge when talking to Mabel about the apartment as well. Also the Christmas guy studied under him. The Westies are invested in him being alive and are more likely to have covered up his death than to have killed him. 

it is odd Dudenoff has nothing much personal in his apartment. Considering everyone knew the lock—long time—it probably was a crashpad for a bunch of people. 
 

my guess is that Jan put the old cameras in when she escaped and so could have caught the Sazz incident. But the BS could be dragging red herrings to create confusion, maybe in the hope of pleasing dudenoff. 
 

 

[Affogato]

Unless it is possible the whole Dudenoff thing is something the BS made up with their school pals, the Westies. Dudenoff may be made up or alive. The replacement shoulder may not be Dudenoff’s. 
 

the BS messed with the narrative of the real show? And the movie stuff is all a red herring?

Edited October 2 by Affogato

[KerleyQ]

11 minutes ago, Affogato said:

. Dudenoff may be made up or alive. The replacement shoulder may not be Dudenoff’s. 

They had the serial number of the shoulder replacement traced to find out whose it was, and it came back with his name. Unless the Westies and BS's managed to hack that system to create a fake patient, he wasn't a made up person, and that shoulder replacement was his. It could have no longer been in his body, since people do get replacements replaced at some point. But it was originally his.