S05.E02: Speak No Evil

[Snarkette]

A death strikes a hard blow to Duke; Nathan refuses to believe Mara has defeated Audrey; Dwight is left keeping Haven together.

 

---

 

Need. More. Kleenex. 

[Shanna Marie]

Need. More. Kleenex.

For multiple scenes. The one where Nathan went to tell Duke about Jennifer, knowing what was likely to happen to him, but also knowing that his history with Duke meant that he might be the one person who could get through to Duke and get him to end the Trouble. The scene where Gloria went to talk to Duke about what to do with Jennifer's body (I just adore Gloria. What an amazing addition to the show. They'd best not kill her.) Nathan's face when he was handcuffing Mara and touched her hands.

 

I think my theme of the year is going to be "Oh, Nathan." He was finally doing the smart thing, but then got swayed. I'm pretty sure that really was Audrey, or else Mara was being extra crafty in pretending not to remember what had just happened, but wow, talk about being in a difficult position. That's assuming they could actually do anything to Mara, but I'm afraid Nathan's going to get himself hurt over and over again. Good thing he takes a licking and keeps on ticking. At least he got to be clever in using Vickie's drawing to catch Mara.

 

The other clever points for the evening go to Gloria, for figuring out that something was up with MarAudrey, grabbing the little black balls, and hiding.

 

I'm not sure that Dwight taking over the Guard is going to end up being entirely a good thing. On the one hand, he does seem to be the one person who's managing to be objective in all this, as he has no personal history here and is just trying to do what's right for the town. On the other hand, is it such a good idea to essentially link the Guard and the police department?

 

Duke's Trouble explosion is going to make things very interesting if they not only have to deal with a Trouble each week, but they also have to deal with whatever Trouble Duke starts spewing in response to the stress from the Trouble of the Week. I guess Nathan's going to have to really step up in his role as BFF.

 

And I think we're on track for a fifth episode taking place in a single day, unless Nathan keeps MarAudrey holed up somewhere overnight before we check in with them again. There were two episodes at the end of last season on the same day, then the first two of this season, and now a cliffhanger.

[Tabbyclaw]

It's going to be a year of "Oh, Duke" with the implication of 'come here and let me hug you' and "Oh, Nathan" with the implication of 'what are we going to do with you, son.' My final comment on this episode as I was watching it live was "And just when Nathan was about to not do the stupid thing." But, as I have said before, this show is really good at making characters do plausible stupid things that totally fit with their other actions, as opposed to shoehorning in moments of inexplicable idiocy to further the plot. 

 

I feel like "When I return, you shall be spared my wrath" is one of those lines that every actor dreams of getting to say one day, and as far as I'm concerned Emily Rose hammed it up the exact right amount. Mara isn't as seamless as her other personas -- there are definitely times when I'm seeing an actor rather than a character -- but it's still a fairly solid performance and I like watching it.

 

As for Jennifer, dammit. I knew she wasn't getting found alive, but I was really hoping for "ambiguously missing and maybe we can talk the actress into returning at some point." But I suppose if they did that our characters would look pretty cold just abandoning any efforts to find her and bring her back And if her death was inevitable, at least they gave her a decent sendoff.

 

 

Duke's Trouble explosion is going to make things very interesting if they not only have to deal with a Trouble each week, but they also have to deal with whatever Trouble Duke starts spewing in response to the stress from the Trouble of the Week. I guess Nathan's going to have to really step up in his role as BFF.

 

I'd definitely be interested to see them do that; it would be a neat inversion of the beginning of last season when Duke was the one keeping Nathan on track.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Tabbyclaw

[Julie23]

Oh Duke. I'm sad too.

[mjc570]

Don't mean to offend anyone, but that was SO boring and predictable -  Jennifer . . . Jennifer . . . Jennifer . . . . Jennifer . . . . Jennifer . . .. . .bwa bwa bwa . . . .Jennifer . . . Jennifer . . . Jennifer

 

And Nathan, maybe it might have been a good idea to let Duke know that it is his denial that was causing the trouble - BEFORE - you trigger another round of denial by breaking the sad news to Duke.

[Carrie Ann]

I thought that episode was outstanding. Better than the premiere, or at least more satisfying. The Jennifer reveal was done perfectly, I thought, with just the right amount of dread. The dime dropped for good when that nurse tried to look into Duke's question and her mouth sewed shut, and all my hope was gone.

 

Gloria is a gift to this show and the world at large. She's my current favorite character and if anything happens to her, so help me God...

 

I just felt like all the character beats were right here, and the actors handled everything brilliantly, and it was an almost perfect Haven for me. I just wish we could have all of this and Jennifer and Audrey too.

[BlueJay81]

I liked this episode. I like Mara and how over the top and crazy she is. Is it really possible to stab someone with a pencil? Both William and Mara are almost cartoonish with their villainy, but its fun for the most part so far.

 

Am not sold on Audrey peeking through though, I think Mara is a master manipulator and is setting up Nathan for a huge fall. Of course Audrey is still there but I don't think that was her just yet. Mara has limited aether and is unable to open the thin spot so she is somewhat limited right now and needs to use everything at her disposal.

 

I am really liking Dwight this season. His acting has really developed and he is required to play this role of keeping Haven together and protecting the Troubled which both Nathan and Vince have not done well at all. It's probably going to create problems for him later, but I like that they have given him more to do. They need a male who is somewhat objective when it comes to Mara/Audrey/Sarah/Lucy and the others clearly are not.

I don't see the Guard doing anything to Mara though, they've proven to be quite ineffectual so far.

 

Was kind of neutral about Jennifer so don't really care that much that she is gone.

Edited September 19, 2014 by BlueJay81

[Shadda2]

So sad, so sad.  Loved all of the Nathan and Duke scenes and the last scene with Gloria and Duke just about killed me.  When he said Jennifer had always wanted to go out to sea and that he was going to finally take her there I just about lost it. 

 

I am of the belief that it was Audrey that peeked through because why would Mara reveal herself if she was trying to manipulate Nathan?  She didn't know what the plan was all she knew is that she was in handcuffs.  Why not continue to be Audrey until she was released?  Turning back to Mara that quickly doesn't make any sense. 

 

What kind of power does Mara have without the aether?  She seems to have superhuman strength and incredible accuracy for her to be able to throw that pencil into a persons eye and kill her.  Also, what was all that "our creation need to be perfected" bull.  How do you perfect the troubles?

[Sakura12]

Did not like Audrey peaking through. I wish it was Mara trying to manipulate Nathan so he thinks he still has a chance. But they will probably go with boring Tru Wuv plot. I don't know if I can take 23 more episodes of this. I don't ship Nathan/Audrey and that's pretty much what this show seems to be about. No one else can be happy but those two in the end. 

 

And God forbid we have another young woman on this show that lasts more than a season. That's exact reason I didn't get attached to Jennifer, she was a goner the minute she showed up. There is only room for one young woman on this show and that's Audrey. 

 

I wanted to punch Nathan when he agreed that Mara was walking around with Audrey's skin. I know she's evil, but it's still the other way around dumbass. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sakura12

[BlueJay81]

 

Also, what was all that "our creation need to be perfected" bull.  How do you perfect the troubles?

I'm guessing more powerful, more uncontrollable, deadlier. Vicki's Trouble wasn't powerful enough to tear through the thin spot, so I'm assuming she wants to create a Trouble that can. She wanted to make Nathan into battering ram, didn't she?

Edited September 19, 2014 by BlueJay81

[Shanna Marie]

I feel like "When I return, you shall be spared my wrath" is one of those lines that every actor dreams of getting to say one day, and as far as I'm concerned Emily Rose hammed it up the exact right amount.

I think I'm going to have to incorporate that into my daily conversation. Instead of saying "thank you" to someone, I can say, "You shall be spared my wrath."

 

I am of the belief that it was Audrey that peeked through because why would Mara reveal herself if she was trying to manipulate Nathan?  She didn't know what the plan was all she knew is that she was in handcuffs.  Why not continue to be Audrey until she was released?  Turning back to Mara that quickly doesn't make any sense.

Unless she's thinking a step ahead and figures that the lapse back to Mara makes the moment of Audrey look more authentic, since it might be more obviously fake if she remains Audrey. Mara actually sucks at pretending to be Audrey for more than about two seconds. She just can't seem to sustain it. The occasional moment of "Audrey" followed by the return of Mara, who seemingly doesn't remember what just happened, would be just enough to keep Nathan on the hook and keep him from being willing to kill her.

 

Though if it was genuine, it looks like Audrey's aware of what's going on with Mara, but Mara doesn't seem to be conscious at all while Audrey's in control.

 

Maybe I've been watching too much Once Upon a Time, but when Audrey appeared after Nathan's kiss, I found myself thinking, "Hey, True Love's Kiss works here, too!"

[Ariah]

I'm still an old romantic, I'm holding out for Audrey/Nathan. I'm thinking it was the real Audrey that woke up after Nathan's kiss. And perhaps that would be the key to bring her back?... I know, it's awfully cheesy, but that's why i love this show. It's not afraid of these absurd plots. It take sthem and runs away with them laughing. Love it.

 

It's really bad to sleep with Duke on this show, isn't it? Insta-death (or disappearance). Poor Jennifer. I really liked her.

 

Still not sure if it's someone from the gang closing the 'Thinnies' or is it the creature from the other side. Which probably took somebody's appearance... Now I'm speculating, don't mind me.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm beginning to wonder if the key to stopping The Troubles depends on Nathan sleeping with every version of Mara.  Sarah, Audrey....next week it looks like he moves on to Mara.  I kid, but I'm seeing a pattern here...

[dargosmydaddy]

 

And Nathan, maybe it might have been a good idea to let Duke know that it is his denial that was causing the trouble - BEFORE - you trigger another round of denial by breaking the sad news to Duke.

Oh, Nathan. I really enjoyed the fact that he's equal opportunity stupid around people he cares about. Or maybe not even really stupid (wishful thinking?), but willing to put himself on the line at their expense.

 

I did find it dumb that he freaked out so much over Duke sewing him shut, though. It's not like his nose was sewn shut. He could breathe. I realize the whole thing was incredibly freaky/ creepy, but Nathan should have been prepared for it after seeing it happening all day, and then going to confront Duke. If he didn't realize there was some possibility that it would happen to him, too, then he really is quite stupid.

 

That being said, I loved both Nathan/ Duke scenes (that one and the one in the beginning where they're both wrapped up in their own misery), and I thought both LB and EB nailed their characters' grief. I'm still a little iffy on ER's Mara, but she certainly had some fine moments. And add me to the Gloria love train-- she's awesome. I found the Vince/ Dave stuff mostly boring, but I did like Dave's line about being bribed by soda and pornography. (I think that was this week? I didn't get to watch last week's episode when it aired, and watched them back-to-back last night, so they're blurring together.) 

 

I'm hoping next week's won't be as awful as it looks in the promo. At least we get the return of EB's short hair!

[Shanna Marie]

I did find it dumb that he freaked out so much over Duke sewing him shut, though. It's not like his nose was sewn shut. He could breathe. I realize the whole thing was incredibly freaky/ creepy, but Nathan should have been prepared for it after seeing it happening all day, and then going to confront Duke. If he didn't realize there was some possibility that it would happen to him, too, then he really is quite stupid.

Had Nathan been seeing much of it all day? Dwight was doing the investigating while Nathan was focused on Mara. At any rate, I think his plan actually was to have it happen to him because he thought that might be the only way to reach Duke. That's why he insisted on being the one to tell about Jennifer and mentioned that they'd known each other since they were kids. He figured that it would force Duke to realize what he was doing, and that Duke wouldn't let him die, that seeing it happen to Nathan would be powerful enough to make Duke get over his denial. And Nathan is our local expert on denial. :-) I have to say, I'd be freaking out if I couldn't breathe through my mouth. They did say that one person suffocated.

 

that one and the one in the beginning where they're both wrapped up in their own misery

That one was weirdly hilarious because Duke is thinking that it's just been a really crappy day when Nathan is actually close to passing out because of being shot, then Duke's reaction to realizing Nathan was shot was priceless. Though it seems like just bandaging the wound made everything better, and he was back on his feet and not slowed down at all. He must be like some of the kindergarteners I deal with, where a mortal wound (at least, that's the way they're acting) will be miraculously healed by the application of a cartoon character Band-Aid. At some point, all these injuries have to catch up to Nathan. In one day so far he's been hit on the head and knocked unconscious twice, beat up a few times and shot. Even without pain, you'd think he'd need to lie down for a little while or else just collapse entirely.

[icandigit]

Duke's "I'm sad" almost gave me wet eyes. I think I'm still in denial. I keep picturing Jennifer waking up in the woods and heading straight to Boston. Then in the series finale Duke goes to Boston to find her. Yes, I'm still in deep deep denial.

 

Mara finding Nathan attractive is pretty interesting. They seem to be developing that I hate you let's sleep together vibe. The only character I'm really excited about this season is Dwight. I'm glad someone is finally doing and saying what needs to be said. Also, Duke called Nathan tiger, aww. I feel a little better about Nathan's storyline since at least, for a second, he was willing to let go. And, I can really appreciate after hearing Audrey in peril him being determined to help her.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Is it really possible to stab someone with a pencil?

I saw a news story quite a few years back where somebody slammed one into the victim's brain through an ear, so yes.

[Tabbyclaw]

That one was weirdly hilarious because Duke is thinking that it's just been a really crappy day when Nathan is actually close to passing out because of being shot, then Duke's reaction to realizing Nathan was shot was priceless.

 

I wish we'd seen more of the bandaging scene, because I so love the mental picture of Duke berating Nathan with "When you've been shot, you lead with that information, jackass!"

 

The impression I got was that Nathan wasn't on the ground because he was in physical distress, but because of the emotional and mental toll that the day was starting to take on him. He didn't need (for a "getting back on his feet" value of need, not a "continued health and survival" one) medical help so much as he needed someone to pat him on the shoulder and say, "That's rough, buddy."  And as Duke pointed out, he knows a disturbing amount about getting shot and how much his body can take.

 

Of course, more than anything else I think Nathan just needs to curl up with someone sympathetic and have a good cry, but like he's going to let himself slow down long enough for that.

[Shadda2]

I figured that one of the reasons that Nathan wanted to talk to Duke, instead of Dwight, was because he knew he was going to have to talk him through the whole thing and it wouldn't hurt him to be sewn up like it would hurt Dwight.  He did a very clever job of taking him down the path with the sight first, then the hearing, and finally the speaking.  That allowed him to say all of the things he needed to say before his mouth was sown shut.  Everyone who had their mouths sown shut had trouble breathing so I wasn't surprised by Nathan suddenly having that issue as well. 

 

It's been a very bad day for all concerned.  I too am wary of Dwight being the police chief and the leader of the guard.  There will be some serious conflicts there that's for sure.  That and Vince does have a history with the guard that Dwight doesn't have and knows so very much more about the Troubles than most everyone and that makes me think this isn't the best idea in the batch.

 

 

I saw a news story quite a few years back where somebody slammed one into the victim's brain through an ear, so yes.

But that was slammed, not thrown.  My point was I was wondering about how strong Mara had to be to be able to throw the pencil into the eye hard enough to go through the eye and way into the brain in order for it to kill her.  That's a seriously hard throw, eyes aren't that easy to penetrate.

[dargosmydaddy]

 

Had Nathan been seeing much of it all day? ... I have to say, I'd be freaking out if I couldn't breathe through my mouth. They did say that one person suffocated.

Hmm, good point. But he saw at least the first guy, and heard about others. And don't get me wrong, I'd be freaking out, too-- definitely one of Haven's more disturbing images-- but if you knew about the possibility, I'd think you'd at least be able to remind yourself to breathe when it (inevitably in my mind, but I guess not in Nathan's) happens to you. But I seem to continually want to make Nathan smarter than the Haven writers want to portray him, so... maybe he really didn't even consider the possibility. Oh Nathan, indeed.

 

 

I wish we'd seen more of the bandaging scene, because I so love the mental picture of Duke berating Nathan with "When you've been shot, you lead with that information, jackass!"

Oh yes, please!

 

 

At some point, all these injuries have to catch up to Nathan. In one day so far he's been hit on the head and knocked unconscious twice, beat up a few times and shot. Even without pain, you'd think he'd need to lie down for a little while or else just collapse entirely.

I've been thinking that forever. I'm fanwanking that there is a side to Nathan's trouble that hasn't been revealed yet regarding his ability to heal... but yeah, probably not. The writers could really try to remember that "doesn't feel pain" does not equate to "can walk around perfectly fine despite any injury," but whatever.

 

 

The only character I'm really excited about this season is Dwight.

I don't hate Dwight, but AC's acting leaves a lot to be desired (he seems to subscribe to the same "bug-eyed reaction" school of acting as the actress who played the psychiatrist in season 3), and I'm not excited about Dwight being both Chief and head of the Guard. Could certainly lead to some interesting storylines, but Dwight's my least favorite of the regulars/ semi-regulars, and I'd rather he be in the background.

[Tabbyclaw]

Since it keeps coming up, I want to add my two cents about the breathing difficulties. My respiratory system is probably the healthiest part of my body. I was enrolled at birth in a study that's been tracking my respiratory health ever since, and at my last check they said my lung capacity was 111% of what was expected for my age range and overall fitness level. I have no allergies and no other conditions that would cause congestion. And yet when I have to breathe exclusively through my nose I start to feel uncomfortable and like I'm not getting enough air immediately. And what's the body's automatic response to that? Trying to breathe deeper, and if that doesn't work you start to tick over into panic mode. When you're trying not to panic you find something to focus on to ground yourself, which isn't an easy thing to do when you already spend your life compensating for the loss of one sense and have just had two more stripped away. So no, nothing about the way Nathan reacted struck me as false or stupid.

[johntfs]

So sad, so sad.  Loved all of the Nathan and Duke scenes and the last scene with Gloria and Duke just about killed me.  When he said Jennifer had always wanted to go out to sea and that he was going to finally take her there I just about lost it. 

 

I am of the belief that it was Audrey that peeked through because why would Mara reveal herself if she was trying to manipulate Nathan?  She didn't know what the plan was all she knew is that she was in handcuffs.  Why not continue to be Audrey until she was released?  Turning back to Mara that quickly doesn't make any sense. 

 

What kind of power does Mara have without the aether?  She seems to have superhuman strength and incredible accuracy for her to be able to throw that pencil into a persons eye and kill her.  Also, what was all that "our creation need to be perfected" bull.  How do you perfect the troubles?

Mara's smart and has several centuries of experience about how humans work to manipulate them.  The obvious move is to capture her and try to force her to remove the Troubles.  Nathan loves Audrey.  So, by showing a glimpse of "Audrey" and then turning back into herself, Mara manipulates Nathan into trying to deal with her himself and likely won't kill or harm her - which is more than the Guard would do.  However, she also knows Nathan well enough (Sarah and Audrey's memories) to know that he's not utterly stupid.  If "Audrey" lasted long enough to beg himself release her, Nathan would likely figure out that Mara was playing him.  This way she gets away from the Guard and gets time to plot her next move.

 

Mara is semi-immune to the effects of the Troubles and can see/sense mystical areas like the thinnies.  She knows how all the Troubles work and how to exploit them.  I don't think she's superstrong or super-accurate.  Mara didn't look like she threw the pencil into the girl's eye.  She just stabbed her in the eye.  Eyes are pretty much jello.  You don't need super-strength to pierce them.  You just need to catch people off guard and be not squeamish at all.

 

As for perfecting the Troubles, you perfect them by turning them into consciously controllable superpowers.  It's pretty clear to me than Mara and William have enemies.  I think that they were using the Troubles in an attempt to create an army of superpowered weapons/soldiers to help fight those enemies - who may very well be just as bad as they are or even worse.

Edited September 20, 2014 by johntfs

[Sakura12]

You can be stabbed in the eye and lose that eye but still be alive. So it's not the stabbing in the eye that takes strength, it's stabbing in the eye and into the brain to kill someone. Which Mara did. 

 

They haven't really shown us Mara having any additional powers besides being able to control the aether and seeing thinnies. I thought they would give her more powers to make her an actual threat but all she seems to do is talk alot and kill extras. I'm still hoping we get more of a back story on her, where she comes from and what she is before Audrey returns. 

[Cardie]

As for perfecting the Troubles, you perfect them by turning them into consciously controllable superpowers.  It's pretty clear to me than Mara and William have enemies.  I think that they were using the Troubles in an attempt to create an army of superpowered weapons/soldiers to help fight those enemies - who may very well be just as bad as they are or even worse.

 

An interesting theory. So far we haven't seen Mara or William with any powers independent of the aether. There are powerful beings on the other side, like whatever one Dave is linked to via shared consciousness. It's probably "greenie" who is out and about sealing up thinnies but whether Dave is directing it, merely seeing what it sees, or projecting some part of himself around town remains to be revealed. But the Troublemakers obviously have enemies in the Agent Howard brigade. Some group decided that Mara had to be punished for starting the Troubles and devised the punishment of being barned or sent out as a Haven saver for 500 years.

[Shadda2]

See my problem with Mara simply trying to manipulate Nathan by pretending to be Audrey is that it was instant.  She just woke up from being knocked out and did not have time to assess the situation, unless Mara is capable of being awake and unconscious at the same time how would she know to pretend to be Audrey?  I've never been knocked out, but I have been under anesthetic and I know when I first started waking up I barely knew who I was much less able to pretend to be someone else because that would be to my benefit.  And if Mara is so clever she should be able to pull off Audrey better than she does.  Me thinks she isn't quite as bright as she would have us believe. 

 

As for Nathan and the breathing, knowing how something is going to go and actually experiencing it are two different things.  Kind of like that whole ice bucket challenge, you know it's going to be really cold, but once that ice water hits you, you still react and shiver.  Just because you know it's going to be cold doesn't mean you aren't going to shiver.     

As for perfecting the Troubles, you perfect them by turning them into consciously controllable superpowers.

 

But why would you want a whole lot of people running around with consciously controllable superpowers that you couldn't control.  William and Mara can give out Troubles but they themselves don't seem to be able to control the Troubled person, they are simply immune to the effect.  Mara is running around trying to pretend to be Audrey in order to get people to do things for her, she isn't able to force them to act.

 

I don't know, none of this makes sense at this point.

[catray]

Goddamnit Nathan, you are a dope. I thought maybe you were getting over it, except then you sat there staring at Mara while Vickie is writhing in pain in your truck due to Mara crushing her hand in the door!! Ugh.

Damnit, Jennifer is actually dead. Boo! Poor Duke.

Are they just going to ignore the disappearence of Duke's boat? I guess it was swamped when the lighthouse was destroyed. (Yes, I know the actual boat sunk but given it was Duke's home this seems like kind of a big deal.)

And damn, finally getting some Guard action! Only took five seasons! I am definitely wary of Dwight taking over (truly, this has "not good" written all over it) but I'm just happy we're finally seeing them do something rather than just talking. I'm cautiously optimistic about this development. It's going to lead to trouble down the road but I like it.

Edited September 20, 2014 by catray

[BlueJay81]

 

As for perfecting the Troubles, you perfect them by turning them into consciously controllable superpowers.  It's pretty clear to me than Mara and William have enemies.  I think that they were using the Troubles in an attempt to create an army of superpowered weapons/soldiers to help fight those enemies - who may very well be just as bad as they are or even worse.

That's an interesting theory, but the Troubles are not really superpowers they are curses, they have a very bad downside and their effects can affect Mara. and William. I think the nature of the Troubles, the pain, fear, compulsive nature of them is what Mara wants. I'm thinking of the Silver Surfer and him serving that planet to protect his own home. Perhaps something feeds off these emotions which in turn creates some protection for for Mara and William. I'm thinking back to last week when she was asked why she needed the Troubles and asked Nathan why he needed a gun.

 

They haven't really shown us Mara having any additional powers besides being able to control the aether and seeing thinnies. I thought they would give her more powers to make her an actual threat but all she seems to do is talk alot and kill extras. I'm still hoping we get more of a back story on her, where she comes from and what she is before Audrey returns.

Yes it doesn't appear like she has any superpowers. We don't know how William healed them after they were shot last season, was it the aether or something innate in  them. They do seem more like witches/scientists conducting experiments on Haven and its people. The knowledge that Mara seems to have about the people of Haven is interesting. They did say the Trouble needs to match the person so they must have known Haven's ancestors very well. Were they just visitors from the other world or where they part of them to know them so well.

On the other hand Mara described Nathan as a weed, which matches the insignificance that William seemed to attach to people which may suggest they are not human at all.

 

 

And damn, finally getting some Guard action! Only took five seasons! I am definitely wary of Dwight taking over (truly, this has "not good" written all over it) but I'm just happy we're finally seeing them do something rather than just talking. I'm cautiously optimistic about this development. It's going to lead to trouble down the road but I like it.

It's good someone is actually following through, but I have no faith in the Guard whatsoever. Mara created the Troubles, she was Sarah, Lucy, Audrey she will know how to manipulate them, that's if they even manage to capture her.

 

Mara's smart and has several centuries of experience about how humans work to manipulate them.  The obvious move is to capture her and try to force her to remove the Troubles.  Nathan loves Audrey.  So, by showing a glimpse of "Audrey" and then turning back into herself, Mara manipulates Nathan into trying to deal with her himself and likely won't kill or harm her - which is more than the Guard would do.  However, she also knows Nathan well enough (Sarah and Audrey's memories) to know that he's not utterly stupid.  If "Audrey" lasted long enough to beg himself release her, Nathan would likely figure out that Mara was playing him.  This way she gets away from the Guard and gets time to plot her next move.

Agree with this. I think Mara is playing a long con. She knows exactly which buttons to push with Nathan.

 

I hope at some point Nathan remembers what Mara said about the aether. It seems it can be used in several ways. If they can find a way to use it in a more positive way, maybe they can solve something.

Edited September 20, 2014 by BlueJay81

[Shadda2]

Agree with this. I think Mara is playing a long con.

 

Oh I think she is way to impatient and immature for a long con.  For a being that is 500 years old she is much more interested in instant gratification than one would think.  I am having a real problem with her penchant for killing. 

 

It appears to me that Mara and William were just regular people, very young people, who found this aether and started using it and figured out it was fun to create havoc and the power they felt when they were able to do that went to their heads.  At that point they felt superior and sort of omnipotent when a more superior being stepped in and put a patch on the situation, but apparently wasn't able to fix it completely.   From those flashback scenes with Mara and William it looked to me like they were just discovering what the aether could do and were very jazzed about it.  The aether is definitely the source of all of their power, they do not appear to have any on their own, which is why Howard told Audrey she was indeed human, very human.  At least that's my theory. 

[shapeshifter]

...For a being that is 500 years old she is much more interested in instant gratification than one would think.  I am having a real problem with her penchant for killing. 

Having lived that long and having seen many generations born, live their lives, and die,--I can see how she would take lightly the ending of a life.

 

It appears to me that Mara and William were just regular people, very young people, who found this aether and started using it and figured out it was fun to create havoc and the power they felt when they were able to do that went to their heads....

That makes sense. Maybe the aether is an actual life form (extraterrestrial or otherwise) that needs to be used that way to survive, and is able to addict those who use it. That could explain Audrey's survival--if the original Mara still longs to be free of the evil aether's will. This might also explain Mara's willingness to kill--it would give her a small amount of agency in that she controls the fate of the person she kills rather than that person being tortured to serve the will of the "aether."

[Cardie]

Just to cast my vote in the "was that really Audrey?" debate, I say yes. Mara's being unconscious gave Audrey a moment to come to the fore when she is generally suppressed by conscious Mara.

[Kumagoro]

I finally found the refugees from TWoP! (I was K42 there).

 

So, terribly sad about Jennifer/Emma Lahana. Can't still figure out how it happens that it's the actor who doesn't want to come back as opposed to the showrunners writing them off. This somehow makes me even sadder. I really liked both the actress and the character. Plus it was cool to have someone from Over There who's not a villain (I guess there's Dave, but Dave is inherently uncool.) (I think all that business with the dreams was supposed to be a Jennifer storyline.)

 

There's one thing about this show that keeps driving me crazy: The Audrey Paradox. We're very clearly going to have an endgame where Audrey, Hero of the Light, finally vanquishes Evil Mara and re-take control... of Mara's own body? Which in the end will be taken over by... a fictional construct based on another person? I mean, it might even be an interesting take on hero vs. villain, but it's still something that nobody ever addresses in the show. They even briefly referenced the Real Audrey Parker this episode, when Gloria was explained all the back story: "That means that that brunette FBI agent who said she was Audrey Parker, she's the real, original Audrey Parker?"

 

And the thing is, Nathan is in love with the personality and memory of THAT Audrey Parker. Who still exists somewhere (if probably still amnesiac – which is very convenient, isn't it?). If in the end Audrey will beat Mara for good, it means the character played by Kathleen Munroe will be the actual heroine, because that's who Emily Rose was playing all along (when she wasn't playing one of the other personalities), while Emily Rose was actually Mara all along. So Nathan essentially wants the body of Mara with the "soul" of FBI Agent Audrey Parker. It's more than a bit messed up.

[XtremeOne1]

I don't think Nathan's in a love with a false personality. Audrey is her own person. She's got the base of Audrey Parker FBI agent but it's mixed with a million other things. We saw that when Real-Audrey came. They weren't the same person. Our Audrey is the sum of all her many parts.

 

My one issue with this sesason..For a show with a female lead, it kind of seconds he's been reduced to the fourth(heck maybe even fifth) most important person in the cast. I miss Audrey. We barely got her last season and she's gone already.

Edited September 20, 2014 by XtremeOne1

[kat165]

I'm in the middle of re-watching last season (just got the DVD) so Jennifer's demise really hit me. Aside from Jess, she is one of the few "new" female characters they've brought in that I actually grew to like. Does anyone know the Lahana's reason for not wanting to come back?

[Kumagoro]

I only found Balfour tweeting that she "wanted to be with her family" (she's from New Zealand, so Canada isn't certainly the best place for that).

 

https://twitter.com/ERICBALFOUR/status/479807762843852800
 
I can't tell what this entails, if somebody in her family is sick or something. She didn't say anything directly in her Twitter account, but she answered Balfour by saying: "I miss u bud! if I could have come back and worked with just the cast and crew who are amazing woulda been a different story".

 

https://twitter.com/emmaklahana/status/479827846894854144

 

I don't know, is that hinting at the fact that there have been cast and crew members who were NOT amazing to her?

I feel like this story might be hiding something. "I quit because I want to be with my family" is sort of code for "I quit for reasons I can't tell so I'll give a generic reason for it".

Edited September 21, 2014 by Kumagoro

[Kumagoro]

I don't think Nathan's in a love with a false personality.

 

"Artificial" is the better word for it. It's something that was arbitrarily created for a specific purpose by taking another person's identity and implanting it on Mara. She wasn't born, she didn't live a life, she only existed for a couple years.

 

Audrey is her own person. She's got the base of Audrey Parker FBI agent but it's mixed with a million other things. (...) Our Audrey is the sum of all her many parts.

 

How, though? The Audrey Parker of season 1 didn't remember being anything else than the Real Audrey Parker. It's hard to buy a personality who's affected by what essentially amounts to past lives buried deep in the subconscious. And even if we concede that this is the case, if you take away the Audrey Parker personality, will the resulting identity be able to win against Mara? For instance, would a re-emerging dominant Sarah be enough to win vs. Mara? Would she be enough for Nathan to love?

 

I don't think so, therefore it's the Audrey Parker identity, and the Audrey Parker identity alone, that's the key here (mostly because it's who the show portrayed since the beginning = the chosen protagonist of the story). We know Nathan is able to fall in love with a different helper like Sarah, but that's actually even more troubling. Because, what does that mean, that Nathan will have an instant connection with any and every girl inhabiting that specific vessel? It's giving looks way too much importance for my taste. Or otherwise, shouldn't the Mara identity, as the original one, be a big part of the mix as well? If Nathan is able to fall in love with any helper (not exactly proven, by the way), would he be able to fall in love with Mara as well, if Mara wasn't a villain?

 

We saw that when Real-Audrey came. They weren't the same person.

 

Well, they were different actresses. It's practically impossible to portray something like "we are the same person in different bodies", without resorting to some blatant giveaways (classic: they perform an action in the same way). Plus, humans aren't robots, they're made of countless behavioral variables, so each of us can react to a situation in multiple ways. Still, the show made clear that the two Audreys shared the exact same memories (give or take a few months) and personality (drives, idiosyncrasies, likes/dislikes, etc.). The Real Audrey Parker met her current fate by doing a very Audrey Parker thing.

 

I think Dollhouse is the example that helps more here. Mara is Caroline Farrell (unless there will be some other twist coming, that is). She's the owner of the body. Audrey Parker is one of the implants. In Dollhouse, Echo was the final sum of Caroline and ALL the implants, as a new person. I could buy this for Haven, too, but they would have to give this entity a new name entirely, not just the name of one of the implants. A specific implant taking over the original personality and erasing it completely is sort of horrifying (it was in Dollhouse, indeed). They are just data discs. We have direct proof that the Audrey Parker personality is just this, too. Rooting for her is problematic for me, since the moment we've known the truth.

 

Man, I wish the Real Audrey Parker would still have a role in all this. Because if she wasn't born, nothing of this would have happened.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Kumagoro

[MarkHB]

I wonder when they filmed the Jen-in-a-body-bag scene, or if they did a wax dummy just for that shot. 

 

I also loved the exchange between Vince and Dave:

 

"You can't extort me with soda and pornography!"

"Yes, I can.  We both know that."

 

Reminds me of the exchange years ago between Nathan and Duke about Duke's taxes.

 

So far as the Mara/Audrey issue goes, it strikes me that waiting until the last act to tear off the facade of a personality that we had been rooting for, revealing that the actual villain is underneath and pretty much leaving the viewer feeling like they had been violently kicked in the chest, is a very Stephen King thing to do.

Edited September 21, 2014 by MarkHB

[BlueJay81]

The writer's through Vince and Dave have told us that underneath she is the same and also that she is different this time. Is the Audrey Parker havensaver personality different or special in some way compared to the others.

Unless it emerges that there is more to the havensaver personas than implanted memories and that there is a clear distinction between them and Mara the the woman Nathan really loves and is destined to be with is Mara.

Whether that means Mara will be redeemed or that Nathan is also evil is an unknown at present. That would be an unexpected horror twist.

Edited September 21, 2014 by BlueJay81

[Cardie]

I don't know, is that hinting at the fact that there have been cast and crew members who were NOT amazing to her?

 

As written it seems to.  I suspect however that Twitter just leads to elimination of necessary commas and she probably meant, "the cast and crew, who are amazing, . . ."

Unless it emerges that there is more to the havensaver personas than implanted memories and that there is a clear distinction between them and Mara the the woman Nathan really loves and is destined to be with is Mara.

 

The only way I can see them finessing this convincingly is if we find out Mara herself was made evil by some outside force and the HavenSaver base personality is her true personality as well. But they don't seem headed in that direction at this point.

[Elsinore]

Re: Emma Lahana. Will never comprehend the actual reason since she was in the US these past months but whatever. New Zealand is far away from rural Nova Scotia so I don't blame her.

 

So, episode.

 

"A lady never tells" was possibly my favourite Mara line ever. Perfect delivery.

 

Oh, Duke. I just really wanted to stop and hug him for most of the episode.

 

Juggers Ahoy must be the result of intense writers room brainstorming. Also, really?

 

Jennifer looked really strange. Being CGI'ed in and everything. I don't think it added anything to the scene though.

 

Oh, Nathan. I wanted to hug him too. I sort of wish they'd shot other sorts of memories rather then random flashbacks. Didn't work last week and didn't work this week.

 

That last scene sounded like Audrey pleading for help so I say it was Audrey.

[Kumagoro]

I suspect however that Twitter just leads to elimination of necessary commas and she probably meant, "the cast and crew, who are amazing, . . ."

 

I thought about that, but it doesn't work. She said "if only with just [these people]" and ended with "woulda been a different story" (meaning that she could have been back in that case). It doesn't make sense if she was saying that ALL the cast and crew are amazing. What would "a different story" mean in that case? She's clearly talking of something that could have made her take a different decision.

 

It might be telling that only Balfour tweeted to her, and she only tweeted to Balfour. Maybe someone else was feeling threatened, considering her character was immediately popular and given an important role (the special girl, the opener of the gate, etc.)? I hope it's nothing like that, though, it would be very sad. (Well, at least we can be sure it wasn't Balfour!)

 

I wonder when they filmed the Jen-in-a-body-bag scene, or if they did a wax dummy just for that shot.

 

It seems like they used archive footage of her face and CGed it into the frame superimposed to a body double in the bag, or something like that.

 

I don't think it added anything to the scene though.

 

Well, it would have been totally weird if they had Dwight identifying Jennifer's body with the body staying off-screen all the time. (It would also fuel endless speculations along the lines of, "Was the unseen body really Jennifer's or did Dwight lie about it?" They needed to make it unambiguous.)

Edited September 21, 2014 by Kumagoro

[icandigit]

I think with genre shows if you don't see the body, speculation continues. Heck even if we do see the body.

[Cardie]

She said "if only with just [these people]" and ended with "woulda been a different story" (meaning that she could have been back in that case).

 

I took that to mean that if it was just working with this cast and crew, rather than that experience requiring her to be in Nova Scotia. I can't see professionals dissing some of the folks they worked with openly on Twitter. Of course I'm an oldster who is very circumspect about social media. Perhaps to someone of Emma's generation this is not a faux pas.

[jhlipton]

And God forbid we have another young woman on this show that lasts more than a season. That's exact reason I didn't get attached to Jennifer, she was a goner the minute she showed up. There is only room for one young woman on this show and that's Audrey. 

 

Certainly seems that way.  Pisses me off, since I really don't care about the Nathan and Audrey Twu Lov any more.

[Kumagoro]

I took that to mean that if it was just working with this cast and crew, rather than that experience requiring her to be in Nova Scotia.

 

She didn't mention anything about the location of the filming being the issue, though, nor did Balfour. In fact, nobody said she was going to go back to New Zealand (the fact that she's from there doesn't even mean her family is still there). I'm not sure she did.

 

I can't see professionals dissing some of the folks they worked with openly on Twitter. Of course I'm an oldster who is very circumspect about social media. Perhaps to someone of Emma's generation this is not a faux pas.

 

Well, if that's what her tweet meant, it's just something that gives you pause (like it did me). She didn't make any name and was so vague we can't even be sure what she was actually implying. There wasn't any follow-up. People use to openly and viciously fight on Twitter and call each other names. If she really held a grudge against someone, she's being sort of Victorian with that oblique remark.

 

On the other hand, if someone was mean enough to push her to quit her job, I'd personally want to know. Because I can't tolerate these kinds of things, ever.

[MarkHB]

This tweet would seem to say that ER is part of the "lovely" people.

 

Reading EL's Twitter stream (and knowing nothing else about her), it certainly looks like she's in NZ.  I'm going with the "people were lovely, being an ocean PLUS a continent away from home was too hard" theory.  Remember, NS is in a separate time zone, an hour east of Eastern, and this season is double-length.

Maybe we should pull all this into a separate thread.  Other than the reveal of Jennifer's body it has nothing to do with this episode.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

For a being that is 500 years old she is much more interested in instant gratification than one would think.

Time doesn't pass the same way where she's spent most of her time, so she may not be that old; for all we know, she's a juvenile delinquent in an older-looking body.

[Shanna Marie]

The only way I can see them finessing this convincingly is if we find out Mara herself was made evil by some outside force and the HavenSaver base personality is her true personality as well.

I've been considering that. They keep saying that the HavenSavers are mostly the same every time, just with different memories, which makes it sound like there's something in there from the core personality, but the Mara we've seen is the polar opposite. Maybe the real, original Mara was like that, and she's since been possessed or cursed or somehow altered to be the Mara we've seen, or else she responded really badly to something bad that happened to her, which led her down this path, and the whole Barn experience and layering those HavenSavers on top was meant to help her find her way back to herself. Howard did say "it seems that way" when Audrey asked if she was being punished, rather than outright saying she was being punished (which you'd think would be the case for someone like Mara), so maybe this was meant as rehab, that perhaps with the influence of these other personalities that were like her original self, she'd find herself again. And there's the fact that the superpower that kept the Troubles at bay during the in-between times was supposedly love, which Mara seems too selfish to be capable of, and would it be genuine enough to work if it only came from the fake personalities?

 

As for Nathan's reaction to the sewing shut, that's just so freaky that I don't think it would be possible to prepare yourself or brace yourself for it, no matter how much you knew about it and how sure you were that it was coming. He might have gone in with a plan and have been totally prepared, but still panicked and freaked out when it happened, which would make it really hard to feel like he was getting all the air he needed through his nose. And remember, he almost suffocated to death in the diving suit only maybe a week ago.

[Demented Daisy]

Warning:  Dark Tower-based theory ahead.  :-)

 

The attempt on Odetta's life created the personality of Detta (a violent personality fueled by hate).  Detta started to exert even more control after the loss of Odetta's legs.  Eventually, the two personalities were forced to face each other and the new personality of Susannah was created, with characteristics of both.  

 

Perhaps Mara was originally more like Audrey and the others, but when given the ability to Trouble people, the power corrupted her.  Perhaps the later personalities are attempts to remind Mara of who she really is.  *shrug*  

[Cardie]

I wonder if being a TroubleMaker is in fact a Trouble and she was William's science project.

[kat165]

Thank you, Kumagoro, I appreciate your response and the links!

 

I wonder, too, about the weird wording of that tweet. "and worked with just.." I got the hiding the real reason vibe too.

 

Good theory, Shadda2. Makes sense.

 

If that actually was Audrey who spoke briefly to Nathan, this makes me wonder wny neither Lucy or Sara has come through. Is Audrey the strongest personality of the Haven savers that she was able to bleed through momentarily?

 

I'm very sad that Lahana isn't able to come back also. But glad that it was her decision and not the producers. I think her character had a lot more todo/say. I do wonder why Jennifer died, but Dave didn't. Is it because he didn't really do much in the lighthouse cavern? (Besides being almost sucked into the door void).

 

Kumagoro, I also am bothered by the Audrey paradox. Why her and not any of the others? Though I don't wish Mara to be the end game as she is horrible. I don't care about her and Nathan & that true love crap. I do miss Audrey too & not the Lexy-Audrey we got last year.

 

Mark, the Jen-in-a-body bag looked like a still photo, like maybe a body with her face imprinted over it. Her face was very blue and flat looking.

 

I love the interchanges between the 2 Teague Brothers. Their relationship is one of my favorite parts of the show & both these actors do such a great job. I can't wait to see where (if) they are going with Dave.

 

Shana, good point with Howard saying "it seems that way."