S03.E02: Next

[chitowngirl]

Synopsis: Carmy sets a new standard.
Drops on Hulu June 27, 2024.

Edited June 26 by chitowngirl

[txhorns79]

I know nothing about running a restaurant, but even I realize changing the menu every day is wildly impractical.     

[Mindthinkr]

I’ll just call that one the FU episode. 

[tennisgurl]

I know that lots of restaurants have seasonal menus or change things a lot, but not every day, especially with the small staff!

After such an emotionally evocative first episode, which I loved, it feels right to get back to normal, Richie and Carmy yelling at each other. Syd looked like she was about to put her head through the wall, that is WAY too much for first thing in the morning. 

[driver18]

Until the end when with Marcus, this ep had me rolling. It was fricking hilarious. I had to pause at certain points, I was laughing so hard.

[Colorado David]

ok maybe its just me, but the dialogue adds so much to episodes. the first episode was good, but i miss hearing them interact - i get what they were trying to do and it did work. but i so appreciate the lines they do.

boy ok carm and richie just right back at it again. i see carm is asking a TON from his people, but i think his heart is in the right place tho these goals (Syd ABS correct in calling them this) are amazingly tall.

ok closing scene got to me. Marcus' face, he just does a look, not even changing it, and it says so much with his eyes.  i got a bit choked up. 

 

[chaifan]

Theory:  The writers get paid by the word, so they were making up for money lost in episode 1 by having everyone speak at the same time in episode 2.  😆

I will admit, I didn't do a re-watch of season 2, and I don't remember what Carm said to Ritchie (or the girlfriend), so I lost a little bit of what was going on with all the fuck you's.  I loved everyone coming in one by one to watch the shit show unfold, though. 

Maybe it's just me, but drafting a list of "non negotiables" and offering someone a partnership agreement don't seem to really go hand in hand.  Here, Syd, be my "equal" partner, but you have no say in my non-negotiable list.  ummmm...  no.

If someone with actual knowledge of the high end restaurant world is on this thread, please let us know if changing the menu every day is actually a thing, and if it's a smart thing.  I don't understand the point.  $175/person restaurant is not where most people go over and over in a close period of time.  The average diner wouldn't have any idea if the menu items are new or not, and the restaurant would never be known for a signature dish.  So I don't see the advantage in this.  (Not to mention the cost and time.)

Geez, Syd, when someone needs to use the bathroom they need to use the bathroom.  Why be so rigid with "bathroom time"? 

[Haleth]

All the servers quit after one day?  Wow.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

All the servers quit after one day?  Wow.

Carm said something about tips.  Did they have a "no tip" policy that first night, and that's why Carm brought it up?  Maybe between the disfunction and no tips that was a problem. 

I think what I'm missing, and again, maybe it's because I didn't do a re-watch, is other than Carm getting locked in the walk-in, what was so bad about opening night that is putting him into "we have to re-do everything" mode?  Were customers not happy?  Was there a bad review?  I feel I'm missing something.

 

[aghst]

I guess the first episode, Carmy going through the rigors of working at fine dining restaurants around the world, made him decide that he wants them to go through it again, go for the prestige of the star.

And he unilaterally made that decision, though my recollection is that Syd is the one who wanted them to go beyond just making sandwiches at lunch time for the local neighborhood.  She is also passionate about haute cuisine so it's a bit surprising that she wasn't more enthusiastic to Carmy telling her that they were going for a Michelin star.

I would think Jimmy would have a lot to say about it, since he put in a lot of the money and Carmy is formalizing a partnership agreement with equity.

I get that these high-end places are high-stress environment but the bickering, while entertaining, seems dysfunctional.  Carmy wouldn't bully his employees but he'd push them to the limit.

This is ultimately the way they were headed.  Even in season 1, Carmy wasn't going to be content just making sandwiches, though he of course wanted to make the best beef sandwiches and pushed the people in the kitchen.

Syd wanted them to have dinner service and ultimately a fine dining place since it would challenge them creatively.

They didn't agonize too much about leaving behind the sandwich place, the working-class customers in the neighborhood.  Because $175 tasting menus is for a completely different set of clientele.

[Colorado David]

do they no longer do the pickup window? i saw the sandwich buns in an episode this season, so thats why i am asking.

[Sailorgirl26]

28 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

do they no longer do the pickup window? i saw the sandwich buns in an episode this season, so thats why i am asking.

They do. 

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

And he unilaterally made that decision, though my recollection is that Syd is the one who wanted them to go beyond just making sandwiches at lunch time for the local neighborhood.  She is also passionate about haute cuisine so it's a bit surprising that she wasn't more enthusiastic to Carmy telling her that they were going for a Michelin star.

I think the ambition scares her.  If I remember correctly, her first suggestion, or their first iteration of a more formal dining experience in the evening, was a family-style restaurant.  Then, it evolved to being high-end.  And suddenly, Carmy is aiming for a Michelin star with new menus every day. They haven't even got their feet underneath them and has a ridiculous opening night.

[peeayebee]

22 hours ago, chaifan said:

If someone with actual knowledge of the high end restaurant world is on this thread, please let us know if changing the menu every day is actually a thing, and if it's a smart thing.  I don't understand the point.  $175/person restaurant is not where most people go over and over in a close period of time.  The average diner wouldn't have any idea if the menu items are new or not, and the restaurant would never be known for a signature dish.  So I don't see the advantage in this.  (Not to mention the cost and time.)

I do not have actual knowledge, but I'm going to guess that maybe you sort of get points for difficulty. It's certainly great if you make the same excellent food every day, but it's outstanding if you make different great food every day.

My favorite part of this ep was the sequence with the opening credits watching the businesses of Chicago starting their day. This was beautiful.

I also liked the opening scenes with Syd and her dad.

But I gotta say I got f'ing tired of all the "f you's" is the scene with Carmy and Richie yelling at each other. I didn't find it amusing or emotional, just tedious. 

 

[Gloriosa]

8 hours ago, Colorado David said:

do they no longer do the pickup window? i saw the sandwich buns in an episode this season, so thats why i am asking.

I think Carmy told the guy (Christopher?) that the window would open the next day.

[Black Knight]

21 hours ago, peeayebee said:

But I gotta say I got f'ing tired of all the "f you's" is the scene with Carmy and Richie yelling at each other. I didn't find it amusing or emotional, just tedious. 

Yes, I was totally with Syd.

As for Carmy's new ambition, I took it as he feels he lost Claire over this, so now he has to get a Michelin star for it to be worth it. Plus throwing himself into the restaurant is good distraction from his heartbreak.

Glad to see nearly everybody else remains obsessed over Claire Bear.

[Blakeston]

I didn't care for this one (aside from the great opening sequence).

It seemed like the writers decided, "This is going to compete as a comedy at the Emmys, so let's give them some laughs!" And the only way they could think of to accomplish that was to have the characters scream "get fucked!" at each other over and over again.

It seemed like Richie has wildly regressed after all the progress we saw him make last season. 

[lovett1979]

15 hours ago, Blakeston said:

It seemed like the writers decided, "This is going to compete as a comedy at the Emmys, so let's give them some laughs!" And the only way they could think of to accomplish that was to have the characters scream "get fucked!" at each other over and over again.

Which is not at all funny. The majority of the characters are in a serious drama, and then every so often there are 2 idiots being idiots at each other, and that's supposedly "funny?" That this would get considered a comedy, or any of the leads' performances to be comedic performances is an abomination.

[thuganomics85]

Not sure who I felt the worst for: Syd fighting off a migraine after getting stuck between Carmy and Richie's bullshit, Neil about to curl up in a ball and start crying over all of the fighting, or Natalie basically having to almost be a mom throughout all of this.  They really don't make it easy for the folks!

Yeah, I get wanting to standout and make a name for oneself, but it seems obvious that changing the menu every single day is just going to cause more stress and problems for a group that is already dysfunctional at best.  Carmy doesn't want to admit it, but what went down with the freezer and Claire is really making him go off the rails and trying too hard.  It's kind of ironic that one of his "non negotiables" is about scaling back ingredients for dishes, but he's probably going counter any of that gain by making things even more complicated.

I get the service last season went a little crazy, but I'm kind of surprised all of the servers quit.  From what I've heard, the restaurant industry can get way more crazy than this.  At least Carmy wasn't hurling things or going full Gordon Ramsey on anyone.

The opening montage was a nice love letter to the city of Chicago and the service industry.

Definitely has to be the most "fuck yous" ever to be put on the screen.

Edited July 2 by thuganomics85

[EtheltoTillie]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The opening montage was a nice love letter to the city of Chicago and the service industry.

 

I loved that!  It was also about people making excellent examples of different types of food.  The rest of the episode not so much. 

Carmy's idea to change the menu daily is simply insane.  And customers like to return for favorites.  There are serious foodies who return to eat in such places.  That's what you have daily specials for.  Some new stuff every day and some old stuff.  And Carmy is calling things non negotiables, but he's not supposed to be the only one with a vote.  They have to set up a conflict, but this is too extreme.  I appreciated how Sydney was trying to mediate and how Carmy was kind to Marcus.

Edited July 2 by EtheltoTillie

[MicheleinPhilly]

On 6/30/2024 at 11:56 PM, Blakeston said:

I didn't care for this one (aside from the great opening sequence).

It seemed like the writers decided, "This is going to compete as a comedy at the Emmys, so let's give them some laughs!" And the only way they could think of to accomplish that was to have the characters scream "get fucked!" at each other over and over again.

It seemed like Richie has wildly regressed after all the progress we saw him make last season. 

Such great comedy writing. 🙄

I was just discussing this with a friend over the weekend. We distinctly remember Orange is the New Black getting shunted to the "opposite" category by the Emmys after the first season. (Neither of us could recall which category they originally started in.) I'm sincerely hoping that happens here. 

Anywho, Carmy is going to have a nervous breakdown if he keeps this up. Or the restaurant will quickly go bankrupt. I can't imagine Oliver Platt will keep paying those bills.  

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

I was just discussing this with a friend over the weekend. We distinctly remember Orange is the New Black getting shunted to the "opposite" category by the Emmys after the first season. (Neither of us could recall which category they originally started in.)

I just looked it up. Its first year, OITNB was nominated for Best Comedy Series. The next year it was nom'd for Best Drama Series.

I agree that The Bear should switch categories.

[EtheltoTillie]

Speaking of whether you retain dishes on the menu or whether you start fresh every day, they alluded to this by showing Boulud's famous potato-wrapped fish. 

https://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/crisp-paupiettes-of-sea-bass-in-barolo-sauce

I recently read an article about how he made this dish for years but finally retired it and only makes variations.  But it was a standard and patron favorite that would have to be on the menu always as a signature dish. 

[Cheezwiz]

I was so moved by the opening montage of this episode. Such a beautiful cover by Eddie Vedder of a song I already adored from the 80s. The combo of the visuals of the hard-working service/hospitality workers and the music genuinely had me tearing up.

Apparently Vedder recorded this version of Save It For Later especially for this episode. I read that it's something he's sung live for many years, but this is the first recording he's made. Felt grateful for it during such a shitty time in the world at the moment.

[tkc]

On 6/20/2024 at 12:31 PM, chitowngirl said:

Synopsis: Carmy sets a new standard.

 

On 7/1/2024 at 8:20 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Definitely has to be the most "**** yous" ever to be put on the screen.

Oh, so *that's* what they meant in the synopsis! 😁

Edited July 3 by tkc

[wonderwoman]

On 6/28/2024 at 9:05 PM, peeayebee said:

I gotta say I got f'ing tired of all the "f you's" is the scene with Carmy and Richie yelling at each other. I didn't find it amusing or emotional, just tedious. 

agreed!

sometimes i chalk this sort of thing up to lazy writing (and no, the writers do not get paid by the word:). but, here i think the point was to show how tedious— not to mention disruptive and dysfunctional  — it is for the staff, as well. 

Edited July 7 by wonderwoman

[meep.meep]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:48 PM, chaifan said:

 

If someone with actual knowledge of the high end restaurant world is on this thread, please let us know if changing the menu every day is actually a thing, and if it's a smart thing.  I don't understand the point.  $175/person restaurant is not where most people go over and over in a close period of time.  The average diner wouldn't have any idea if the menu items are new or not, and the restaurant would never be known for a signature dish.  So I don't see the advantage in this.  (Not to mention the cost and time.)

 

That's what they do at Chez Panisse - but everyone in the dining room is served the same meal.  They put out a menu for the week, but there may be substitutions based on what is locally available.  Each dinner is four courses.

After Chez Panisse had been open a while, Waters opened Cafe Fanny which is less pricy and you order from a lengthy menu.

I agree with everyone about the opening showing all the early morning workers!

[buttersister]

Quote

The opening montage was a nice love letter to the city of Chicago and the service industry.

Because it cannot be said enough, bravo.

[EastCoast4Life]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:48 PM, chaifan said:

If someone with actual knowledge of the high end restaurant world is on this thread, please let us know if changing the menu every day is actually a thing, and if it's a smart thing.  I don't understand the point.  $175/person restaurant is not where most people go over and over in a close period of time.  The average diner wouldn't have any idea if the menu items are new or not, and the restaurant would never be known for a signature dish.  So I don't see the advantage in this.  (Not to mention the cost and time.)

I've never heard of just a tasting menu. Most places have a set menu, and a tasting menu, if you want that experience. My husband works at a very high end restaurant, front of the house. It is very similar to The Bear in it's plating, techniques, $, and staff. They do change certain dishes everyday, and everything else is seasonal. The chef is scary and a hard ass. There are tweezers putting the finishing touches on things. Thank God he works front of the house, because the chefs are there from morning until close, and probably don't get paid what they are worth. People love the restaurant though, and rave about it. My aunt and uncle were visiting, and I took them there, and they said it was the meal of their lifetime. 

Edited July 10 by EastCoast4Life

[marny]

1 hour ago, EastCoast4Life said:

I've never heard of just a tasting menu. Most places have a set menu, and a tasting menu, if you want that experience. My husband works at a very high end restaurant, front of the house. It is very similar to The Bear in it's plating, techniques, $, and staff. They do change certain dishes everyday, and everything else is seasonal. The chef is scary and a hard ass. There are tweezers putting the finishing touches on things. Thank God he works front of the house, because the chefs are there from morning until close, and probably don't get paid what they are worth. People love the restaurant though, and rave about it. My aunt and uncle were visiting, and I took them there, and they said it was the meal of their lifetime. 

I’ve been to several “tasting menu only” restaurants, but they still don’t change the menu daily since they’re intended as more special-occasion restaurants. They don’t have regulars. Sometimes they’ll change up a course or 2 based on availability of ingredients or seasonality, but no one changes every dish every day. Seasonal menu change is the usual way to celebrate seasonal ingredients. 

[EastCoast4Life]

1 minute ago, marny said:

They don’t have regulars.

I think this is the problem with only having a tasting menu. Even if you are high end, you want regulars. They keep the business going, especially during slow times of year. 

[meep.meep]

The tasting menu only places are very expensive.  French Laundry, Atellier Crenn, Single Thread, the old Cyrus out in my neck of the woods.  It's going to be $500 per person.  No one can afford to be a regular, it's a once in a lifetime experience.

They stay in business quite nicely.

[MicheleinPhilly]

Yep! I live right near a high end place that's run by a Top Chef winner. It started out as a la carte, went to prix fixe, went to tasting, and then just recently, back to a la carte. 

They specificially cited wanting regulars as one of the reasons. 

[lucindabelle]

Usually the music has the song and the artist no? I was singing along to save It for Later but I knew it wasn’t the English beat! I loved hearing the lyrics so clearly.

since I’ve been reading up on Michelin restaurants I know that many do have tasting only, at least in NY. $175 is very reasonable and on the low end. per Se is more like $500 per person. Not including extras or pairing wines.

one I want to try is dirt candy, a vegetarian Michelin starred. There is a no tipping policy there, because as the owner says they pay the servers starting at $25 an hour. Personally I would love that as a patron. Tipping is weird and it’s math. And when they tell you what the tip would be you always feel weird too.

believe it or not some people are regulars at these Michelin places. The world is full of wealth. The note taking on diners at the place where Richie staged was a bit exaggerated but it does take place particularly for repeat guests.

marcus is the most like carmie. I rewatched both seasons to get ready for season 3 and Marcus was obsessed with getting the donuts right and inspired. It makes sense that he would deal with grief the way carmie does- by working.

[cmfran]

On 7/12/2024 at 1:03 AM, lucindabelle said:

Usually the music has the song and the artist no? I was singing along to save It for Later but I knew it wasn’t the English beat! I loved hearing the lyrics so clearly.

since I’ve been reading up on Michelin restaurants I know that many do have tasting only, at least in NY. $175 is very reasonable and on the low end. per Se is more like $500 per person. Not including extras or pairing wines.

one I want to try is dirt candy, a vegetarian Michelin starred. There is a no tipping policy there, because as the owner says they pay the servers starting at $25 an hour. Personally I would love that as a patron. Tipping is weird and it’s math. And when they tell you what the tip would be you always feel weird too.

believe it or not some people are regulars at these Michelin places. The world is full of wealth. The note taking on diners at the place where Richie staged was a bit exaggerated but it does take place particularly for repeat guests.

marcus is the most like carmie. I rewatched both seasons to get ready for season 3 and Marcus was obsessed with getting the donuts right and inspired. It makes sense that he would deal with grief the way carmie does- by working.

$175 is a steal for a dinner like that. I won't even discuss what I recently spent on a one-star meal in Stockholm. But it was considerably more.

[aghst]

Maybe wine is where they make the profits, so there are going to be wine pairings offered at these places.

[Puffaroo]

I hope they don't continue in this multi-conversational vein -- I had to turn on the closed captions to keep up with what they were saying.

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Maybe wine is where they make the profits, so there are going to be wine pairings offered at these places.

I'm sort of a foodie, but I don't dine at places like this often.  Once in a while. 

About 20 years ago we were in Chicago shortly after the restaurant Alinea opened.  The chef, Grant Achatz, is one of the chefs making a cameo in the show.  It was our twentieth anniversary, and because the restaurant was very new we actually were able to secure a reservation by going early in the evening, even though the restaurant was already causing a stir.  It was a tasting menu.  We did not order wine pairings, which would have doubled the price.  We have no appreciation for wine, so we were happy to skip it.  They still treated us nicely.  It was a memorable occasion.  He was one of the early promoters of molecular gastronomy and other unusual preparations. There were specially designed plates for each course, like pillow shaped displays for some items and special forks.   He earlier trained with Keller.

Keller is renowned for how he cleans the restaurant, so I'm guessing where they get that fanatical nightly cleaning routine in the show (including where they dig grease out of the stove grooves with a pick).  Keller is supposedly a fanatic about how the pots and pans and baking sheets are cleaned.  You can't leave any burned spots.  Do you know how hard that is?  It serves no purpose other than to impose a standard for quality and caring, but I don't think it affects cooking.  This fetish was caricatured by the Gus Fring character in Better Call Saul.

 

Edited July 13 by EtheltoTillie

[Yeah No]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:38 AM, chaifan said:

I think what I'm missing, and again, maybe it's because I didn't do a re-watch, is other than Carm getting locked in the walk-in, what was so bad about opening night that is putting him into "we have to re-do everything" mode?  Were customers not happy?  Was there a bad review?  I feel I'm missing something.

He's reacting to having unwittingly sabotaged his relationship with Claire when he was having an audible meltdown in the locked freezer. He basically was telling himself he had no right to be in a relationship because he couldn't handle one and was fucked in the head, and what was he thinking? Of course Claire would run away from that. It sounds like he was telling her he didn't want a relationship with her. And it doesn't matter if he didn't intend for her to hear that or he really didn't 100% mean it, it's out there and it's hard to come back from that.

On 6/29/2024 at 6:49 PM, Black Knight said:

As for Carmy's new ambition, I took it as he feels he lost Claire over this, so now he has to get a Michelin star for it to be worth it. Plus throwing himself into the restaurant is good distraction from his heartbreak.

And he feels like he has to make up for the mess he made in his love life with an even bigger win in his professional life. Although I suspect this has been his pattern for some time - sabotaging and avoiding relationships because he can't handle them by throwing himself into his work. The way he feels about Claire scares the crap out of him so at stressful moments it is going to feel unsustainable. Even if this hadn't happened he would inevitably sabotage the relationship sooner or later anyway. He doesn't feel that he's worth it and would lose her anyway And even worse, she came along at a bad time when he is hyper-focused on his career and has even less ability to handle a relationship. So he's just avoiding it now.

On 7/13/2024 at 1:13 PM, cmfran said:

$175 is a steal for a dinner like that. I won't even discuss what I recently spent on a one-star meal in Stockholm. But it was considerably more.

It is a steal, but I get it for a newbie restaurant that's trying to make a name for itself. Most of them with the wine pairings are in the $3-400 range at places like Le Bernardin, Daniel and even the French Laundry. Per Se's price is ridiculous and from what my husband's rich foodie boss tells us, it's not even as good as it used to be.

 

[possibilities]

Carmy is sabotaging his career, also, though, by being totally undisciplined about finances, berating rather than training his staff, and insulting his supposed partner.

I think it's beyond career vs personal. I think he's just a total mess.

[EtheltoTillie]

Wow, I just watched the Charlie Trotter documentary on Netflix. Carmy is in many ways based on this tragic figure, a legend of Chicago cuisine. Check it out. It seems appropriate in this episode. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 6/27/2024 at 1:07 AM, txhorns79 said:

I know nothing about running a restaurant, but even I realize changing the menu every day is wildly impractical.     

It also seems like a bad idea from a customer point of view. Because a new restaurant like that is probably going to rely on a ton of word of mouth promotion as well as reviews to get customers. So if someone comes in and wants the chicken their friend had on Saturday and the server tells them it was only available that day they would probably be annoyed. 

On 6/28/2024 at 8:38 AM, chaifan said:

Carm said something about tips.  Did they have a "no tip" policy that first night, and that's why Carm brought it up?  Maybe between the disfunction and no tips that was a problem. 

The first night was friends and family and they said that no one would be paying. So they likely wouldn't be getting tips that night anyways. Although I was shocked that Richard was the guy against tipping. I would have thought he would totally be the guy who likes the power he has over servers or barbers or whoever. So him thinking it was demeaning is some nice writing.

On 7/2/2024 at 9:13 PM, Cheezwiz said:

I was so moved by the opening montage of this episode. Such a beautiful cover by Eddie Vedder of a song I already adored from the 80s. The combo of the visuals of the hard-working service/hospitality workers and the music genuinely had me tearing up.

Apparently Vedder recorded this version of Save It For Later especially for this episode. I read that it's something he's sung live for many years, but this is the first recording he's made. Felt grateful for it during such a shitty time in the world at the moment.

Hearing Ed's version of that song on the radio is what finally drove me to watch this show. When I saw Pearl Jam in 2011 and in 2016 they played parts of Save it for Later at the end of Better Man (more of the song in 2016). But both of those were faster more rocking versions. So this slowed down version was really nice.

Also interesting that they used an Eddie Vedder song, since one thing Pearl Jam is known for is completely changing their concert setlists every show. So while that might not be as hard as changing menus it would be a challenge.

Edited October 20 by Kel Varnsen