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S01.E06: The Garrison Commander


Athena
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I'm grateful to the writers (PTB) for extending this episode and allowing the audience to see what makes John Randall tick. TM owned this episode.

Contrary to what we see at the end, I believe everything he says to Claire about darkness and redemption. He made a clear decision to back away from being reformed and effectively sucker punched Claire and the audience in the process.

 

In particular, I thought the use of the straight razor in flashback as a treasured family heirloom was ingenious. How many people have heirlooms of their own, yet know nothing of nature of those who owned it?

 

Claire needs to remember she makes poor decisions when she drinks. The fact that she takes an entire bottle of whiskey with her before the scene fades to black is quite ironic.

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I know this will probably be unpopular. The "virgin" dialogue is my favorite from the book so maybe I had built it up in my mind to unrealistic levels but I felt let down last night when it finally happened. In fact, if I hadn't known it was coming I would have missed it. I felt like Sam delivered it like it was a throw away line. And in the book, it always felt like Claire was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and her, "does it bother you I'm not a virgin?" Was one last desperate attempt to get Jamie to walk away from the marriage. The whole scene seemed much too relax and casual and throw away to me.

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I hadn't thought about it that way Waltershair. I like that way of looking at it much better, thank you.

I still feel the scene went on too long and was more about exposition than dialogue but I think your insight into the changing motivation helps keep him from cartoon.

(Apologies for not holding your name, I can't figure out now to do it on an iPad).

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I thougt it was OTT though. The army depends upon hierarchy, the blatant mouthing off was threatening to command and control and the talk of bedroom in mixed company was completely false.

Yeah, there's perhaps over-familiarity and mouthy-ness to someone a rank or two higher, but Randall's just a captain, which is a really low rank.  I'm surprised a major or colonel in the room didn't bust him for his insubordination.  Let's just put it this way: the British Army didn't conquer and hold 1/2 of the world's surface (or whatever that percentage is) by letting captains "have their say" to general officers.  

 

Was one last desperate attempt to get Jamie to walk away from the marriage. The whole scene seemed much too relax and casual and throw away to me.

 

I was surprised they went as far as they did last ep.  I thought it would end on more of a cliffhanger of "how is Dougal going to keep from having to hand Claire over," rather than immediately provide the solution.  Though I think it was smart, to end the ep on an upbeat note, and give the viewers something, ahem, "pleasant" to look forward to, rather than brood over how Claire was going to get out of this peril.   I had thought there would be a bit more resistance from Claire regarding the arranged marriage (given how she even manages to whinge at Dougal for having to walk too far to get water... even though her VO clearly states she was aching and wanted to stop the horses).  She's just sort of acquiescing.  Perhaps it's meant to show that she's beginning to really "get" the high-stakes world she's living in (and pretty ill-equipped for, at least without some allies).  Or perhaps the show doesn't want people to think she's unwilling and consent is in doubt.  I was expecting more a protest from Claire, though maybe she's just grateful that 1) there's a way not to be turned over to Randall, and 2) that way involves marrying Jamie, and not Dougal or someone she finds repugnant.  

Edited by annlaw78
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Yeah, there's perhaps over-familiarity and mouthy-ness to someone a rank or two higher, but Randall's just a captain, which is a really low rank.  I'm surprised a major or colonel in the room didn't bust him for his insubordination.  Let's just put it this way: the British Army didn't conquer and hold 1/2 of the world's surface (or whatever that percentage is) by letting captains "have their say" to general officers.  

Yes, I have to say that rang a bit false that all these higher up English officers in that rooms seemed all incompetent and let a mere captain be so disrespectful to them. Whatever one may think of the British Empire it couldn't have reached the size it did and lasted for as long as it did by having incompetent officers.

 

I realize of course that this show by its nature has a Scottish bias so I probably should  chalk  the scene up to that and move on.

Edited by magdalene
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I still think it makes a difference that the Duke of Sandringham is patron to BJR.  Considering what Frank said about the duke (he was a suspected Jacobite), I would think this Duke of Sandringham, as patron to a man like BJR, would be sending subtle missives to the garrison that BJR is his man.  (which does make you wonder if Sandringham sent Black Jack specifically to stir up trouble in the Highlands to push them further into the Jacobite cause).  Maybe one or two men in the room earned a commission, but for the most part, the rest of them purchased the commission.  The general certainly did.  BJR even pointed out that Lord Thomas wouldn't be able to do anything about soldiers that was shot because he's a baffoon (don't remember what was specifically said).  These aren't the officers that would be sent off to lead a conquering of new land or even to hold a land that is in an open state of rebellion.  They seem more the type who are window dressing, just so there is an English presence on the ground, and one who is better equipped than the natives.  There there as more of a scare tactic to keep what they see as 'farmers with pitchforks' from getting any bright ideas. I certainly don't expect General Thomas to be leading any sort of successful attack when the rebellion does start.  

 

Anyway, to sum up, I didn't feel it rang false due to the Duke of Sandringham.  I figured his patronage is what allows BJR to get away with things others might not.  

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I disagree. Patronage matters but not to the point where he can mouth off like that. He was publicly rude to his commander in front of others. Even the duke would agree. Just rang false to me, as did the notion th hat anyone with any manners at all would talk about a woman sharing a bed in public like that. It would be too wildly rude if he were wrong, which he is. He knows nothing about her, for all he knows she's very well connected to. Just, no.

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Just wanted to add my appreciation for the way the dramatic tension was manipulated for this episode- the music, the cuts, the decision for Claire and BJR to sit so quietly while he was describing the flogging. It really was well done IMO.

I am just getting ready to watch with the husband (who goes to bed too early to see it in real time) and I have threatened him with pain of death if he makes me pause 20 times to go get a drink, answer the phone, or pee. It's like getting a two year old ready for bed LOL.

He's really bad about that and it drives me to distraction during any show, but this one deserves to be viewed in it's entirety in one go the way it was constructed.

Can't wait for his reaction!

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I still think it makes a difference that the Duke of Sandringham is patron to BJR.  Considering what Frank said about the duke (he was a suspected Jacobite), I would think this Duke of Sandringham, as patron to a man like BJR, would be sending subtle missives to the garrison that BJR is his man.  (which does make you wonder if Sandringham sent Black Jack specifically to stir up trouble in the Highlands to push them further into the Jacobite cause).  Maybe one or two men in the room earned a commission, but for the most part, the rest of them purchased the commission.  The general certainly did.  BJR even pointed out that Lord Thomas wouldn't be able to do anything about soldiers that was shot because he's a baffoon (don't remember what was specifically said).  These aren't the officers that would be sent off to lead a conquering of new land or even to hold a land that is in an open state of rebellion.  They seem more the type who are window dressing, just so there is an English presence on the ground, and one who is better equipped than the natives.  There there as more of a scare tactic to keep what they see as 'farmers with pitchforks' from getting any bright ideas. I certainly don't expect General Thomas to be leading any sort of successful attack when the rebellion does start.

How do we know that the Brigadier General doesn't have an even better, more powerful patron?  It would stand to reason that whoever purchased the BG's commission is a bigger deal than the dude who only bought his pet a captaincy.  

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How do we know that the Brigadier General doesn't have an even better, more powerful patron?  It would stand to reason that whoever purchased the BG's commission is a bigger deal than the dude who only bought his pet a captaincy.  

Why wouldn't Sir Oliver, Lord Thomas have purchased his own commission?  He's a member of the peerage, whereas Johnathon Randall is not.  He could also be a duke himself, but probably unlikely.  

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When Claire scoffed at the "magic" water, Dougal said something like, "You're here, aren't you?" Does he suspect something?

No, he said, "You're a healer"--basically the medical arts were often considered to be more a matter of magic than knowledge/skill.

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Why wouldn't Sir Oliver, Lord Thomas have purchased his own commission?  He's a member of the peerage, whereas Johnathon Randall is not.  He could also be a duke himself, but probably unlikely.

I guess my point is we're really filling in some backstory holes vis-a-vis the relative power of Thomas and Randall with insufficient information.  If the point is that Randall can tell Thomas to shove off because he's backed by the Duke of Sandringham, well, if we're assuming Thomas is a boob who bought his way into the ranks of general officers, he has some money and power behind him, too.  I'm by no means an expert in the "purchase of commissions" back in that time period, but I do think there would be merit/years of service advancement, too, and Randall is sort of old to be "just" a captain, which would seem to belie the supposition that 1) he's a great soldier, and 2) he has powerful supporters.  You don't see too many 40-year old captains.  

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Yeah, there's perhaps over-familiarity and mouthy-ness to someone a rank or two higher, but Randall's just a captain, which is a really low rank.  I'm surprised a major or colonel in the room didn't bust him for his insubordination.  Let's just put it this way: the British Army didn't conquer and hold 1/2 of the world's surface (or whatever that percentage is) by letting captains "have their say" to general officers.  

 

Yes, I have to say that rang a bit false that all these higher up English officers in that rooms seemed all incompetent and let a mere captain be so disrespectful to them. Whatever one may think of the British Empire it couldn't have reached the size it did and lasted for as long as it did by having incompetent officers.

 

I realize of course that this show by its nature has a Scottish bias so I probably should  chalk  the scene up to that and move on.

I'm going to assume that Brigadier General Thomas was in a very good mood due to the large quantity of claret he'd imbibed.  I'll be interested to see future interactions between him and Blackjack.

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But you also don't see too many 30 year old generals.  

 

It's not really important in the grand scheme of things because the episode was so strong.  I didn't see what's being pointed out as unbelievable since the dialogue was meant to turn anger away from BJR and suspicion onto Claire.  Jack wasn't able to be properly reprimanded because he turned it directly onto Claire's suspicious sympathy towards the 'barbaric' scots.  It felt like the actual rudeness towards the officers was dusting off in a ridiculous manner but them being english, they'd ignore the poor behavior of their peers as long as it isn't actually contradicting an officer.  I mean, he did what was commanded of him.  That's the sort of behavior I'd expect a person like BJR with a patron like a Duke could get away with.  He didn't actually tell Lord Thomas to shove off as far as I recall.  He merely followed an order in an immature way. 

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That was an intense hour of television. I find TM way too creepy as BJR. It's too much. I get the creeps when he is on screen.

 

I speak enough French to know that BJR asks, "Do you speak French" and Claire responds "Yes, Very well.  What difference does that make?" But I don't know what he says next.  Something about a prostitute I gather.  Any French speakers around to translate?

 

"There isn't much of the prostitute in you." and then he says the, "You don't have the look of a woman who would rouge her nipples."

 

Dougal was great in this and so was Jamie. This show continues to be on fire. Two more episodes until hiatus! 

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That was a hard one to watch, from begging drunk Claire to shut up, to being horrified by Jamie's flogging complete with loose skin hanging off his back, to Claire getting beaten by her husband's look-a-like ancestor. 

 

I was glad they at least lightened it up a bit with the ending and Claire's reaction to Jamie being a virgin. I knew she was made to marry Jamie from skimming some summaries of the book, I just didn't know how it happened. ETA. With Claire asking Jamie if he's okay with marrying her when she's not a virgin tells me she assumes they will have to consummate the marriage. Although that psycho Black Jack will not take kindly to Claire marrying a Scot after all that talk about her just wanting to go home. 

 

I also started reading the book, and am only reading up until the where the episodes end. I will tell you it was difficult to stop reading since I had to stop in the middle of a chapter. 

Edited by Sakura12
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This was a very powerful episode.  Lots of points to the writers, the actors, the sfx/makeup department and the rest of the production company.  Tobias Menzies owned this episode and really brought the darkness of his character to life.  The scene with him telling Claire about the flogging and then his abuse of her afterwards for her sympathetic response was some great storytelling by the actors.  I felt Claire's pain in seeing the "face" of her beloved husband on BJR and knowing how Frank was so ingrossed in BJR's role as an English captain in the 1740's.  Yet here BJR is live in front of her and he's so not what Frank might think or hope he was.  Someone upthread made a good point that how many of us have "stuff" passed down through generations and probably don't have a real idea who the person that owned it was in their life.

 

I liked that Claire and Dougal were looking out for each other at the inn, making sure the other one was not in danger at different times.  I was glad that Dougal has apparently accepted that Claire is really not a spy, but she is still a curiosity to him and I don't think he's sure she isn't still a threat in some way.  The scene of Dougal at the General's luncheon was very telling.  Dougal seemed to make a point of talking is such broad Scots dialect he allowed them to be dismissive of his position, and yet I believe he knew exactly what he was doing in order to make a point that the uniforms don't make men more civilized.  Claire (and us) have now seen two "gatherings' of a sort for that era and can see the good and bad on both sides.

 

I'm glad they closed this episode with the marriage contract scene.  It added a bit of a lift to a very dark chapter of this show.  I caught Jamie's comment about what kind of a friend would he be to Claire to let her be taken back to BJR.  Him saying he's not a good prospect as a husband due to his past yet is willing to marry Claire to protect her keeps him in a somewhat neutral position in the whole matter still.  It's being presented as a business decision to give both of them some common ground to work from.  Can't forget that Jamie still knows, better than anyone, that Claire has been trying to find a way to leave all this time. 

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I disagree bluebonnet... He was completely insubordinate in his behavior and very inappropriate. Yes, he was diverting attention but his shaking his boots at the door and his sneer on the word claret were unmistakeable scornful. It makes sense that maybe his superior was in a good mood because otherwise it's just gobsmackingly unprofessional. May explain why he hasn't been promoted.

Even today, you don't get away with at kind of thing in the my just because technically you did what was commanded or didn't outright contradict them, heck you wouldn't get away with it in most workplaces....and definitely not the army where the entire going depends on respect for authority,

For myself, I just didn't buy it. It felt contrived.

Edited by lucindabelle
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Can't forget that Jamie still knows, better than anyone, that Claire has been trying to find a way to leave all this time.

 

Oh yes....great point as he surely does know.  

And it will be for another book or two before that knowledge/fear will leave him.  He played that scene so well as did she of course. Both of them holding onto their private thoughts but yet understanding what needs to be done.  And stoically coming to accept it and feeling 'let's just get it over with then'.  Although Jaime has a lot less of those thoughts than she does just now.  :)

 

 

NP Athena...thanks.  I'm sorry, I wasn't even thinking about the book spoiler aspect of my comment.  I'll try to be more careful in the future.  >red faced<

Edited by dustoffmom
Book talk.
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I found the moment when Black Jack draws Claire quite interesting. In the pilot, Frank tells Claire that he missed her so much that he was sketching her hand on classified documents. He wanted to honor her, hold onto her when she wasn't there. Here, Black Jack draws her image but does it to demean her, calling it "Beautiful Lies." So, like with the razor, we once again see the similarities between Frank and Black Jack but are continually reminded that Frank is a good man with a decidedly twisted ancestor.

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I found the moment when Black Jack draws Claire quite interesting. In the pilot, Frank tells Claire that he missed her so much that he was sketching her hand on classified documents. He wanted to honor her, hold onto her when she wasn't there. Here, Black Jack draws her image but does it to demean her, calling it "Beautiful Lies." So, like with the razor, we once again see the similarities between Frank and Black Jack but are continually reminded that Frank is a good man with a decidedly twisted ancestor.

Great catch here! Nicely put together by the writers then! I had only linked BJR "artistic tendencies" with him describing his flogging Jamie and creating a masterpiece. Completely forgot about Frank sketching her hand!

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Good Googley Moogley, but that was beyond tense, and I unashamedly admit, I watched the flogging between my fingers, and shut my eyes when they showed the blood spilling out from Jamie's back.  And I kept my eyes closed during the amputation. I was really hoping they would have chopped off the arm with the sword, instead of sawing away at it. And the sounds?! {shudder/cringe/shudder}

 

And the entire scene of Jack questioning Claire had my heart pounding and me on the edge of my sofa. I can take a lot, but I just CANNOT rewatch this. I cannot.

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I didn't think I could rewatch this episode, but I did.  Brutal the 2nd time around too.  Couple of additional observations:

 

  •  I really thought that Claire could have shown a little more sympathy for Private McCreevey (not sure of spelling).  She showed much more empathy when they saw the 2 men on crosses.  She said it was a sad day for Private McCreevey when he was stationed in Scotland (as opposed to when he was murdered by the Scots).  She did acknowledge a little that what happened to him was not right, but I thought she should have been stronger on that point, given her general stance on brutality. 
  • When she spoke about the lack of trials for the murdered Highlanders, I was reminded of the justice administered by Colum.  I don't recall there being any evidence against Laoghaire when she was going to be beaten at the request of her father. Of course, the condemnation of Laoghaire was in Gaellic, so I could be wrong, but that scene popped into my head
  • Also, I didn't pick up on this the first time, but was McCreevey's murder done in an especially harsh way because he was a Scot (assuming from his name, but I may be wrong) serving in the army?
  • I thought the English soldiers at the amputation were a good contrast to the officers.  They were immediately willing to take direction from Claire and I especially liked the one who gave his wife's scarf for a tourniquet.  It showed a nicer side of the English
  • When Claire mentioned that BJR had a bad reputation at Castle Leoch due to the beating of a boy, I got the impression that she had unintentionally given him a clue about where Jamie has been hiding.  No solid evidence here, but just a flicker in BJR's eye that I thought I noticed.  We'll see if it becomes anything later in the season.
  • Had a crackpot theory pop into my head during BJR's monologue that Frank had also traveled back in time (to an earlier time than Claire) and was, in fact, his own ancestor BJR!  I'll admit that was crazy, but wanted to share...  ;)
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I have been both attracted and put off by this show, because it felt like Romance-novel melodrama, and while there's nothing wrong with that, it just isn't my particular thing.  For example, Jamie came across as Mr. Perfect, a cross-between a Golden Retriever in human form and Rob Roy, stood out amongst the other Scots like crazy as the obvious romantic interest in Claire from the moment she fixed his shoulder.  Yet Claire, unrealistically, behaved as though she was more or less oblivious to his incredible hotness, even though, through the narration, we hear her inner thoughts.  I figured it would only be a matter of time before there was some plot contrivance that "forced" them to be together, so should could have sex with him with plausible deniability about being attracted to him and tempted to stray from her husband. And sure enough, it seems to be happening.

 

However, after this episode, I'll tolerate the hokiness and dishonesty of such a contrivance, because the show is actually getting good.  Jamie is genuinely winning and unique enough in his hotness to look past the contrivance, and Tobias Menzies was fantastically horrifying.  Dougal is also great.  The characters are interesting enough and complex enough to flesh out the world, and there seems to finally be something at stake other than Claire's attempts to get back to Frank.  I appreciate that dilemma for the character, but I guess stories where something larger is at stake are more engaging, especially when so much of the story comes from one person's perspective.  Black Jack Randall and the Scottish struggle against the English is interesting.  Like some of you above, I loathed some of the Brits, but also kind of like the gallant soldier who seemed to be trying to help Claire in the event she was a prisoner of the Scots.  Knowing nothing about her actual situation, he really thought he was helping her, and it helps the show to round out and balance the sides.  Randall is terrifying, and his sadistic love affair with flogging poor Jamie's formally beautiful back adds a needed menace to the show.  It was incredibly difficult to watch, but great performances all around.   

Edited by lawless
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Good Googley Moogley, but that was beyond tense, and I unashamedly admit, I watched the flogging between my fingers, and shut my eyes when they showed the blood spilling out from Jamie's back.  And I kept my eyes closed during the amputation. I was really hoping they would have chopped off the arm with the sword, instead of sawing away at it. And the sounds?! {shudder/cringe/shudder}

 

And the entire scene of Jack questioning Claire had my heart pounding and me on the edge of my sofa. I can take a lot, but I just CANNOT rewatch this. I cannot.

I couldn't watch the flogging at all. I put it on fast forward. Torture is not something I can handle, even if it is happening to fictional characters.

I'll rewatch the episode solely for the Dougal/Claire scenes. I think Graham McTavish is the best actor on the show, and that's saying a lot since I haven't seen a bad actor on this series yet. Tobias Menzies is great but BJR is completely evil. Dougal is a much more complicated character. He can be regal, kind, arrogant, protective, reckless, shrewd, cruel, humorous, loyal...well, you get the idea. Even though he is shown in more of a negative than positive light, I simply can't take my eyes off him when he's on the screen. That little smile when he agreed that Claire does indeed know how to give men orders just about slayed me.

I did also like the ending with Jamie and Claire. I'm so glad they kept his line from the book, "Reckon one of us should ken what they're doing." LOL

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I couldn't watch the flogging at all. I put it on fast forward. Torture is not something I can handle, even if it is happening to fictional characters.

If so, you've missed some fantastic dialogue.  Maybe try listening without watching the horror?

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Maybe Randall got away with his lip because they've all heard or seen what a sadistic animal he is. No one probably wants to cross him personally or perhaps he gets special treatment because he does the really dirty work. He did seem overly confident and disrespectful. He seemed to have a special power over them and wasn't bothered that there was no place at the table for him.  I wonder why he let Claire and Dougal go. Dougal's threat was a plausible one but Randall doesn't seem like a man who would back down.

 

An as far a Jamie being a virgin, perhaps he/his family is quite religious and don't believe is sex before marriage. Maybe seeing what happened to his sister affected him in some way. I hope they address this next week.

 

It is frustrating that Claire has to be in every scene because she's the first person narrator. Can anyone remember a scene she hasn't been in? I'd love it if they moved away from this. I'd love to see a scene between Colum and Dougal, but I guess they don't want the viewer to know the characters and their motives unless it's through Claire's eyes.

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I still feel like it's very safe to conclude that Randall's relationship with Sandringham is the thing that allows him to get away with this stuff.  Something seemed to have changed after that scourging of Jamie.  We see this on the soldiers faces.  Compare the soldiers faces to the flashback of Jenny and Jamie with the one the the flogging.  There appears to be accepted scare and control tactics that, while we find inhumanely disturbing, are fairly standardized.  The soldiers as Jamie's farm didn't express any disturbance over what Randall was doing and were actively involved without hesitation.  On the other hand, while at the start of the flogging the soldiers appeared like this was standard punishment despite the previous flogging, their expressions become increasingly disturbed and horrified indicating that what the flogging became was not normalized behavior.  

 

Randall very publicly shamed himself and his commission in front of not only the Scots and regular soldiers, but officers as well.  And yet he still retains his position seemingly without suffering any consequences for committing an act that any reasonably intelligent person could see would instigate further hatred of the English occupying force.  The fact that he can get away with something like this makes it a lot clearer how he can get away with stomping dust off his clothes in a petulant manner.  

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There's a character named Brian Fraser in the credits for this episode.  I don't remember him being mentioned, but I assume he's in the scene where Jamie gets whipped and is a relative of his.  Did anyone spot him in the episode?  (I think I found him on IMDB, but was not able to embed the image here.) I wonder if he's Jamie's father.  Please, no spoilers from anyone who knows the truth.  :)

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If so, you've missed some fantastic dialogue.  Maybe try listening without watching the horror?

I believe you about the dialogue, but I'll still pass. From what I did see, just checking briefly to know when to hit play again, the show seemed to be venturing pretty close to Mel Gibson torture porn territory. We've all seen the horrible scars on Jamie's back; I don't need to watch the flogging in all it's graphic, gory detail to understand that Jack Randall is a sadistic brute.

Having read the books, I'll probably be skipping some parts of future episodes as well.

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I couldn't watch the flogging at all. I put it on fast forward. Torture is not something I can handle, even if it is happening to fictional characters.

 

 

If so, you've missed some fantastic dialogue.  Maybe try listening without watching the horror?

I would second this suggestion.  Today I let the episode run a couple times when it was being repeated on Starz and I just went about doing other stuff (painting, crafty stuff) that didn't allow me to really watch the screen all the time.  I just listened to BJR's dialogue over the flogging scene and it is very powerful.  Truly a man who has descended into the deepest darkness.   I continue to be impressed by Tobias Menzies' portrayal of this character.  He has brought out the damaged human aspect of what was more of a single dimension evil character on the page.

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When Claire mentioned that BJR had a bad reputation at Castle Leoch due to the beating of a boy, I got the impression that she had unintentionally given him a clue about where Jamie has been hiding.  No solid evidence here, but just a flicker in BJR's eye that I thought I noticed.  We'll see if it becomes anything later in the season.

 

 

This was when I really wanted her to shut up. Speaking out passionately and not containing herself is one thing, but this felt dangerous on a different level. Even if it was only a story someone told her, there are so many ways for it to go wrong. Her comments led to Black Jack telling his story, but -- I thought they might have gotten to it simply through her mentioning his reputation for flogging. If Jamie stood out so much for him, that would be the story he'd tell anyway, and Claire would have known exactly whom he was talking about. It felt downright stupid for her to mention the Highland boy, and it bothered me that she would so carelessly endanger Jamie again.

 

One other thing I noticed about BJR was that after he "shaved" the corporal, he made a comment about the young man being just a beardless boy -- or something like that -- and patted him. There was a slight laciviousness in the touch and in his look that was creepy.

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OMG

 

That was some of the most intense TV I have watched in a long time.

 

I refused to be spoiled, but I have asked the Mod in here to let me know when it was going to get bad because I have a 14 year old at home in a very small space, so I have to be careful with what I watch.  I was warned that there would be some massive gore, and she wasn't kidding.  I couldn't watch it.  At all.  I couldn't listen to it.  At all.  I probably missed some dialog, but believe me, I got the gist.  BJR = bad, evil, hate.  

 

I busted a gut at the last scene, it was played wonderfully.  From her leaving BJR, to the horse ride, to the water, to Dougal believing the water was a magic truth serum, to the marriage contract, to JAMIE BEING A VIRGIN!!!

 

TOTALLY didn't expect that.  At all. 

 

I was buying the whole redemption thing, and Claire (forget the actress name) acted the hang out of that scene.  I was feeling it with her.  And then to get punched in the gut?  That came out of fricken nowhere!  And then to have someone else kick her?  I was beside myself.  I was thinking, how much more do they want me to hate this guy?

 

Ugh.

 

Brilliant acting.  But hard to watch.

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Tobias Menzies gave a chilling performance as Black Jack.  What a dark, twisted person.  Yet when he was feigning regret he had Claire completely fooled.  (Of course she was hoping to find a little of Frank in there.)  He reminded me of another sociopath... Lecter... without the fava beans.  Manipulative and totally sure of his superiority.  Utterly devoid of humanity.

 

About Claire going along with the marriage plan, certainly she hasn't given up on her wish to get back to the standing stones and try to go home.  Perhaps she sees this as the way to remove an impediment, get the Scots to trust her more.  Grabbing the bottle and stomping off, her body language was all "let's get this over with."  The fact that she is to be married to Jamie doesn't hurt, their mutual attraction is obvious.  But what if Dougal had proposed marriage to himself?  I wonder if she would have eventually gone along with the plan.

 

It's beginning to be kind of a joke how Claire gets tipsy in every episode.

Edited by Haleth
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Here's Online Etymology's entry for honeymoon: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=honeymoon&searchmode=none

 

I haven't rewatched the episode at all, but what I woke up thinking about was the flogging scene, one thing that can go here and one thing that will have to go in another thread.

 

The thing about the flogging scene in the episode that struck me (sorry), is that probably the most wrenching image for me, the one most stuck in my mind, is the close up shot of Jamie's boots as he struggled to get his feet back under him. There are all the bloody, bloody, bloody shots of his back, but it's those boots that just makes me want to cry. His strength had gone out and they were slipping in his own blood, but he just kept trying to stand. It speaks to the pain of it more than screaming would, it speaks to his force of will more than shouting would, it just lays out who Jamie is for us in one brief close up shot and just...gah. That kills me. I always over analyze things, so I think it's probably that we're seen blood and guts before, we're somewhat anesthetized to that, but I can't think of the last time I saw a scene like this one that had those little detailed close ups. Also sometimes I know I think of "acting" as dialogue and facial expressions, but this kind of thing really shows how the whole body should be used to convey things. For me at least, I think the struggling feet were even more moving than any close ups of an anguished look on Sam's face would have been. We did see his face a bit, but one of those cheesy agonized close ups wasn't necessary, Outlander managed to convey everything it needed to with just his feet.

This scene and Jamie's feet reminded me of the powerful scene in "Twelve Years a Slave" where the slave is hung for hours very near to the ground and we see the long, unbroken shot of his tiptoes just contacting the ground long enough at times to keep him (just barely) alive.  Very powerful scenes, both of them.

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It's beginning to be kind of a joke how Claire gets tipsy in every episode.

 

I love it though because it's all "oh, no, here we go." She's in a room with English officers? What could possibly go wrong?

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Didn't know whether to place these two articles here or in the media thread. Thought here would be better because they directly comment on Ron Moore's and Tobias Menzies' intentions regarding the flogging scene and how it was actually filmed. Sam comments as well.

 

http://www.vulture.com/2014/09/outlander-lashing-scene-ronald-d-moore-explainer.html

 

http://www.tv.com/shows/outlander/community/post/outlander-flogging-scene-interview-ronald-d-moore-141055918381/

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Hmmm. I guess I'm the only one who thinks Claire was trying to manipulate Black Jack purely to get him to take her home. The entire time she was telling him that there was some good in him just beneath the surface, I was thinking, "I really hope he doesn't fall for this. Please laugh at her and lay the smack down on her ass."  I cheered when he did.  I'm sorry, but Claire was annoying as all hell in this episode. She should have known better than to open her mouth and say the things she said at the dinner/lunch/whatever. Come on lady; you're supposed to be smart. There's being "brave" and standing up for what one believes in, and then there's just moronic behavior. This was fucking moronic. 

 

I did enjoy this episode immensely and think it was the best one to date. I can't wait to see sexy times with Jamie next episode. 

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Hmmm. I guess I'm the only one who thinks Claire was trying to manipulate Black Jack purely to get him to take her home. The entire time she was telling him that there was some good in him just beneath the surface, I was thinking, "I really hope he doesn't fall for this. Please laugh at her and lay the smack down on her ass."  I cheered when he did.  I'm sorry, but Claire was annoying as all hell in this episode. She should have known better than to open her mouth and say the things she said at the dinner/lunch/whatever. Come on lady; you're supposed to be smart. There's being "brave" and standing up for what one believes in, and then there's just moronic behavior. This was fucking moronic. 

 

I did enjoy this episode immensely and think it was the best one to date. I can't wait to see sexy times with Jamie next episode. 

I disagree that Claire deserved to be punched in the stomach and kicked.  She has her flaws - who doesn't? - and her smart mouth is about equally a handicap and an asset but first of all I am not sure she was manipulating Jack Randall. It looked to me more like she was trying to appeal to his better nature and maybe looking for something of her husband in him. And finding out the hard way there was no better nature to appeal to.  And even had she been trying to manipulate him  - good for her. This man had been trying to rape her on first aquaintance and had brutally whipped a young man who had become Claire's friend almost to death. Being manipulated is the least Jack deserves if there was any justice.

Edited by magdalene
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I'm in danger of 'shipping Claire and Dougal. He looked and acted mighty fine.

 

Too late for me --- I already do!

 

Dougal seemed very caring of Claire this ep --when she came down to help with amputee-boy he walked right up to her and said --Claire? Are you all right? (So very concerned!) and then of course when Black Jack and other dude were abusing her ---it was Dougal to the rescue!

 

Speaking of that punch in the stomach! wow! I felt it! It made me breathless! That was powerful TV I must say ---in more ways than one. I had no clue that was coming but man Oh man that Black jack is a seriously disturbed person. I was yelling ---Claire??? Don't believe a word out of his smarmy lying mouth!

 

Anyway. I know I am supposed to be "feeling" something between Claire and Jamie ---but meh. I'm not.

 

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Anyway. I know I am supposed to be "feeling" something between Claire and Jamie ---but meh. I'm not.

 

You are not the only one.  I have a lot of hotsy trotsy feelings for Jamie, but they are just cause he is kind of gorgeous.  I couldn't imagine a life with that sort of guy.  On the other hand, Dougal, as I have mentioned before, can be my knight in shining armor (what is it called when it's Scottish???).

 

I don't know if I am allowed to post about the trailer for next week, so I am gonna hide it, if it's allowed, just edit please: 

It doesn't look like Claire is feeling it yet either when she interjects that kiss with a tell me about your family.

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Hmmm. I guess I'm the only one who thinks Claire was trying to manipulate Black Jack purely to get him to take her home. The entire time she was telling him that there was some good in him just beneath the surface, I was thinking, "I really hope he doesn't fall for this. Please laugh at her and lay the smack down on her ass."  I cheered when he did.  I'm sorry, but Claire was annoying as all hell in this episode. She should have known better than to open her mouth and say the things she said at the dinner/lunch/whatever. Come on lady; you're supposed to be smart. There's being "brave" and standing up for what one believes in, and then there's just moronic behavior. This was fucking moronic. 

If your definition of moronic behavior is when one does something even knowing there may be severe, negative consequences, then I'm curious where you'd place Jamie on the moron scale.  The dude has taken a stand against assault on women, refused to allow his punishment to be used as a further scare tactic to keep the Highlanders submissive, etc.  He should have known better to do these things especially since, unlike Claire, he lives in this time and is intimately familiar with all the social rules and he knows firsthand how better armed and trained the occupying force is.  Surely you also consider all of the Highlanders, Dougal especially, incredibly moronic for even suggesting that they should rebel against this current administration?  I shudder to think all of the smack downs you are hoping for since it seems all the characters are hopelessly moronic by the definition you have assigned.  

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I'm in danger of 'shipping Claire and Dougal. He looked and acted mighty fine.

Those two have a lot of chemistry and the actor who plays Dougal has a very strong presence. You totally believe every minute he is on screen that he is a figure of authority and dangerous to cross. I am not shipping him and Claire though because even though he seems to like and respect Claire I am not convinced he wouldn't throw Claire to the wolves in a New York minute if he thought she was endangering his position or his cause.

 

I am not shipping Claire and Jaime either. Yet. It's just too soon for me. I have to see them together more.

Edited by magdalene
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