S02.E07: Wonders Never Cease

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, BeatrixK said:

This bugged me, too. 

My first assumptiion is that they of course have a security person in on it. 

Oscar went with her during the day during normal business hours - I know they did something similar in American Hustle, but they also explained HOW they did it.  This was all Here one day, gone now, with Oscar's Monday - PEACE OUT!

It was just....weird that there wasn't even a half assed 'Oh, that company closed Friday'...just 'This office has been empty'  

?????

There are a number of options. One is the security guard works for them. The furniture is in a nearby office and borrowed only for the half hour Oscar was there. The office was only set up for the day.  Anyway there are a few Sherlock Holmes stories that use the trick.

[Salacious Kitty]

1 minute ago, Affogato said:

There are a number of options. One is the security guard works for them. The furniture is in a nearby office and borrowed only for the half hour Oscar was there. The office was only set up for the day.  Anyway there are a few Sherlock Holmes stories that use the trick.

The office was there longer that. Oscar went there twice: once with Maud and the second time to see "Crowther" on his own with the big check. Actually, didn't he go another time alone to write his initial check? So the office had to have been there for a few weeks. 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, caburrito said:

But but but... Mr. Crowther showed him a booklet!

It's funny, I was gonna mention the booklet in my previous.

There was an acquisition happening, and all he got was a fucking! booklet! 😂

I thought that we were supposed to assume he got more than that off-screen. For example, maybe he signed contracts for his investment off-screen.

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

The office was there longer that. Oscar went there twice: once with Maud and the second time to see "Crowther" on his own with the big check. Actually, didn't he go another time alone to write his initial check? So the office had to have been there for a few weeks.

Yes... and I don't think real scammers would give enough of a fuck about the furniture to move it when they're trying to get away as fast as possible.

Edited December 13, 2023 by AntFTW

[Lj Young]

On 12/10/2023 at 9:08 PM, Straycat80 said:

Could the Van Rhijn’s now be poor? Gasp! Poor Ada, they let her be happy for one episode and then kill off Luke, that was fast, too fast. And now she might be poor thanks to Oscar.

Good news for Collier and Jack. And for the new school Peggy and her Mom are championing. 
I’m getting bored with the Opera war between Bertha and Mrs. Astor. I’m still shipping Marian and Larry. 

I don't think Ada will be poor at all. Remember how Agnis always brought up how Ada didn't have any money? It just appears that the tables have turned. I imagine that it will be Ada to save their family fortune this time, or George and Bertha will possibly step in and find the young lady that scammed them and win Agnis over or something of the sorts. I do see them crossing over from Old New York to New New York.

[Brn2bwild]

This society is not very consistent about whom they let in.  On the one hand, they move heaven and earth to prevent Bertha, who comes from a known, easily verifiable family, from joining them.  On the other hand, they barely lift a brow at the mysterious woman who shows up in their drawing rooms one day, or the mysterious woman who married an old money baron out of the blue.

I'm not a Marian-Larry fan, but I accept that their union is where the show is headed and is inevitable.  I think that together, they are pretty meh.  But I think if done right, Marian could be a good foil for Bertha.

[buttersister]

You want to know what’s not attractive and not sexy?

Quote

George Russell … has a plan … everyone [will] hate the Irish and the Jews.

If Fellowes is looking for how far I’ll go rooting for a robber baron, this is where I get off the train. FU, George.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, buttersister said:

If Fellowes is looking for how far I’ll go rooting for a robber baron, this is where I get off the train. FU, George.

Why would we need to root for George? It's quite enough that he is interesting as a character, utterly ruthless in business while loving his family.

It would be a mistake IMO to hide that even when he looks to do good, his main motivation is self-interest. We saw it already in the first season when he and  Bertha supported Red Cross that then helped railroad accident offers.

He is only more farsighted than other business men. And isn't it historically correct in the US that worker groups could be put against each other?    

[Carolina Girl]

11 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

On the other hand, they barely lift a brow at the mysterious woman who shows up in their drawing rooms one day, or the mysterious woman who married an old money baron out of the blue.

THANK you!  Especially since the former is tinged with the stain of illegitimacy.  Jay Gould was not "old" New York and hence his supposedly bastard child would not be welcome in Old New York's drawing rooms.  Also, there's no way in hell Mrs. Fish wouldn't have been consulted first thing about her background.

However, I wonder if it was really only Aurora that was welcoming to her, bestowing invitations and introductions.  Aurora has shown herself to be ready to side with "the New" - leaving the meeting with Mrs. Astor, for instance - in society you wouldn't walk out on Mrs. Astor with a sarcastic quip.  This is same Aurora in Season 1 that rolled her eyes at Bertha asking about Raikes' money, etc.  We're supposed to believe she's now completely "with" the New?  

I know we can't have our plotlines always tied up neatly with a bow, but it would be nice if they didn't sometimes raise more questions about continuity and consistency.  

[Roseanna]

51 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

THANK you!  Especially since the former is tinged with the stain of illegitimacy.  Jay Gould was not "old" New York and hence his supposedly bastard child would not be welcome in Old New York's drawing rooms. 

Maude wasn't officially a bastard as she was born when her mother was married to a man who had accepted her as his child. 

I have understand that among British aristocracy such children had no problems to be accepted as legitimate, despite rumors. 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Carolina Girl said:

THANK you!  Especially since the former is tinged with the stain of illegitimacy.  Jay Gould was not "old" New York and hence his supposedly bastard child would not be welcome in Old New York's drawing rooms.  Also, there's no way in hell Mrs. Fish wouldn't have been consulted first thing about her background.

However, I wonder if it was really only Aurora that was welcoming to her, bestowing invitations and introductions.  Aurora has shown herself to be ready to side with "the New" - leaving the meeting with Mrs. Astor, for instance - in society you wouldn't walk out on Mrs. Astor with a sarcastic quip.

But, “officially”, Maud wasn’t new. Officially, she came from the right family, of “old” NY. Being an illegitimate child is a rumor as far as they know.

Edited December 13, 2023 by AntFTW

[Hanahope]

How did Maude receive these invitations to parties and other events?  aren't those delivered to an address, oftentimes by livery/footmen?  i don't think they had PO boxes back then.  i would think it odd if the only address provided was this rented business office.  

like others, i am amazed that there was just this acceptance of a person nobody knew, because of "rumours" of whose daughter she was (on both mother and father side).  and Oscar's acceptance that this woman would just be waiting outside for him because she 'wanted air.' And wouldn't this young unmarried woman have had some sort of 'companion' accompany her places?   i wonder if it was because of his homosexuality, and never dating women previously (other than his neighbor), that he didn't see these red flags.  How did Aurora meet her in the first place?

[Charlemagne]

23 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Emphasis mine. This is the main problem with this plot. This was a fictional company. Even the night watchman at the office building had never heard of this company. It would be one thing if Maud and her co-conspirator were pretending to be shareholders in a real company that Oscar and everyone else knew about, and one that Oscar could verify was indeed in competition to acquire this railroad. But it wasn't. It was just something they made up that nobody had ever heard of before.

And that is what makes this story so unbelievable, and makes Oscar look like a complete idiot.

It feels like you might be applying options & sensibilities from today to the time period and characters of the story.

It's not like Oscar could have Googled things. Part of the nature of these scams - which is 1000% believable because it's how they work and still goes on today - is that someone is duped into thinking that they are getting in on the ground floor of something that most people do not know about yet.

History is littered with victims of con jobs that people think are unbelievable when examining them from a distance.

It's also important to remember that the "beauty" of the scam is that its whole hook is that it was a new company - hence the lure of being a founding investor.

Oscar had no reason - within the parameters of his gullibility - to think that there would be an existing track record because he thought he was getting in on the ground floor of something brand new.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Charlemagne

[Charlemagne]

19 hours ago, JenE4 said:

I might be mistaken, but I thought the point of his investment was to get in on the ground floor of a brand-new railroad company that was being founded by some high rollers, including (but not limited to) Jay Gould. So to me it made sense that there was no way to do research on it, especially since Crowley was very secretive on whom all the other investors were. (Oscar brought up Jay Gould’s name and Crowley never confirmed nor denied.) But I admit I might be wrong because after hearing that George’s railroad won the bid, maybe it was supposed to be an established railroad company and they were only raising money for the bid, not to establish the company altogether. But it really made it seem like he was investing in the company itself not just funding one bid.

You are 100% correct in your assessment. 

People are holding the character of Oscar responsible for not being as smart as they think he ought to have been when we still see people falling for stuff like it today.

Elizabeth Holmes & Theranos Health Technology.  Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX Cryptocurrency.

How many people *within* those very industries were duped? How many celebrities - who had their own teams of managers, etc. - were duped?

There is nothing about this particular storyline that is in any way unbelievable. Folks love to gamble on a new opportunity and to make a quick major payday and don't always think everything through.

Hell.... there's a city in the Nevada desert with bright lights whose whole basis for existing is to entice people who ought to know better to part with their money.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Charlemagne

[AntFTW]

23 minutes ago, Charlemagne said:

People are holding the character of Oscar responsible for not being as smart as they think he ought to have been when we still see people falling for stuff like it today.

Elizabeth Holmes & Theranos Health Technology.  Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX Cryptocurrency.

How many people *within* those very industries were duped?

We are equal opportunists, we hold all suckers responsible to some degree for not being as smart as they should have been.

[Charlemagne]

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

We are equal opportunists, we hold all suckers responsible to some degree for not being as smart as they should have been.

Fair enough.

But the issue still remains: as a storyline... there's nothing unbelievable about it.

We can point at the sucker and marvel at how someone could have been so stupid but it's one of the truest storylines on the show.

[blackwing]

20 hours ago, AntFTW said:

The part that's unbelievable for me - maybe it's my ignorance because I have no idea how they managed office buildings in the 1880s- is that they were able to set up shop in an office space and building watchman has no knowledge of anyone being there. They had pay someone some rent money to be there.

These people are shelling out funds to keep the charade going, and it's not cheap... and the only target is Oscar? That just doesn't sit well with me.

 

19 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

The office was there longer that. Oscar went there twice: once with Maud and the second time to see "Crowther" on his own with the big check. Actually, didn't he go another time alone to write his initial check? So the office had to have been there for a few weeks. 

This.  Oscar was there two or three times.  Was this some kind of 1880s shared We Work situation?  Wouldn't Oscar have noticed if the building was completely empty?  Didn't we see other people in the building?  The security guard said something like "you can't be here" and acted like the entire building has been empty for weeks, and that the particular office was always empty.

Why was Oscar the only target?  Why did they run immediately after getting his check?  Why wouldn't they have tried to fleece another young man of money.  How did they know that Oscar was desperate to get married?  Seems like they knew way too much about him and his vulnerability to the scam, when he's probably not that notable in NY society in the grand scheme of things.

[iMonrey]

20 hours ago, AntFTW said:

That layer is believable. It's common that special-purpose or single-purpose entities are created solely for completing one transaction, like an acquisition. It give some anonymity for investors. In my experience, it's normal that you limit the amount details you share about a deal until the deal is closed. If its a public company, the news of a bid to acquire a public company can't be hidden (not sure if that applied in the 1880s).

But Oscar only profits if the entity successfully acquires the railroad. What made him so certain they would? Because Jay Gould was investing in it? So what? He had no idea how much and Gould could afford to take a risk. If Oscar had any sense at all he would have to have assessed the likelihood that the acquisition would be successful. That's why putting the entire family fortune into this makes him look like such an idiot. 

1 hour ago, Charlemagne said:

There is nothing about this particular storyline that is in any way unbelievable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, I found it 100% unbelievable. I mean, there is probably a way to make this work, but I'm not willing to do the writer's job for him. None of this was explained well enough to make sense of it, and it's only by filling in the gaps ourselves and doing a lot of handwaving and speculating is it possible to buy into it. 

[Charlemagne]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

But Oscar only profits if the entity successfully acquires the railroad. What made him so certain they would? Because Jay Gould was investing in it? So what? He had no idea how much and Gould could afford to take a risk. If Oscar had any sense at all he would have to have assessed the likelihood that the acquisition would be successful. That's why putting the entire family fortune into this makes him look like such an idiot. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, I found it 100% unbelievable. I mean, there is probably a way to make this work, but I'm not willing to do the writer's job for him. None of this was explained well enough to make sense of it, and it's only by filling in the gaps ourselves and doing a lot of handwaving and speculating is it possible to buy into it. 

The writers did just fine in this instance. They way they did it worked. And this is knowable because it can be compared to real life.

How much money did some people put into NFTs when common sense should have prevailed? If someone wrote NFTs into a story (and they did not previously exist), that would have seemed completely unbelievable. Yet here we are.

On this subject matter, it's not an opinion like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We have verifiable "comps" in this particular narrative neighborhood.

How in the hell did Nigerian Prince scams work? Beats me. But they did. As unbelievable as it would seem... they did.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Charlemagne said:

It's not like Oscar could have Googled things. Part of the nature of these scams - which is 1000% believable because it's how they work and still goes on today - is that someone is duped into thinking that they are getting in on the ground floor of something that most people do not know about yet.

 

This was what I originally didn't understand. I thought 

 

16 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

But Oscar only profits if the entity successfully acquires the railroad. What made him so certain they would? Because Jay Gould was investing in it? So what? He had no idea how much and Gould could afford to take a risk. If Oscar had any sense at all he would have to have assessed the likelihood that the acquisition would be successful. That's why putting the entire family fortune into this makes him look like such an idiot. 

1 hour ago, Charlemagne said:

 

5 minutes ago, Charlemagne said:

How much money did some people put into NFTs when common sense should have prevailed? If someone wrote NFTs into a story (and they did not previously exist), that would have seemed completely unbelievable. Yet here we are.

 

TBF, that doesn't seem to answer iMonrey's question, which was why he would assume this company was going to win in acquiring the railroad. He decided it was a done deal after he gave them money, despite knowing Russell's history. And he believed Russell when he said there was no such company, as if Russell would absolutely have a way of knowing that.

So sure, it's more like the Nigerian Prince scam in that somebody thinks a random email from someone claiming you need to help them with this problem is real, but with Oscar doing even more work to fill in the gaps.

Emotionally, the story works. We get that Oscar had this impulse to jump on a possibility to make himself rich, find happiness and apparently get back at Russell, despite Russell treating him just fine, imo. It just seems like that's all it is, that we're meant to recognize that people fall for such things all the time so this guy could with no explanations for why he'd be risking absolutely everything on it and too uninterested in details etc.

[Charlemagne]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

TBF, that doesn't seem to answer iMonrey's question, which was why he would assume this company was going to win in acquiring the railroad. He decided it was a done deal after he gave them money, despite knowing Russell's history. And he believed Russell when he said there was no such company, as if Russell would absolutely have a way of knowing that.

So sure, it's more like the Nigerian Prince scam in that somebody thinks a random email from someone claiming you need to help them with this problem is real, but with Oscar doing even more work to fill in the gaps.

Emotionally, the story works. We get that Oscar had this impulse to jump on a possibility to make himself rich, find happiness and apparently get back at Russell, despite Russell treating him just fine, imo. It just seems like that's all it is, that we're meant to recognize that people fall for such things all the time so this guy could with no explanations for why he'd be risking absolutely everything on it and too uninterested in details etc.

The question that he wanted answered was a question never posed in the show.

Oscar didn't invest because of that one deal. He invested in the company overall so that he can be a railroad tycoon in his own right.

You may recall that he was given a dividend on his initial smaller investment in the form of a big check from the fake banker. Though we know now that the check was likely fake, Oscar was impressed enough by the sum to want more. Which is a classic grifter strategy. 

Oscar was presented with a "choice." Take the money and get out, or put in more money to get even more money. He ripped up that dividend check and opted to put more money in. Which is what the con artists wanted him to do.

So, to sum up: How could Oscar have gotten a dividend check if that fictional deal had not gone through yet or had already been acquired by Russell?

The only answer possible is that the contract that Russell eventually won (which was real) was but one facet of what Oscar was trying to invest in.

The issue in this debate is that many people are misunderstanding this critical narrative point. Oscar thought that he was investing in a company that was making *many* deals - for which he had already seen a dividend check in his hands.

The competing contract with Russell was just a real situation that the con artists used in order to lend legitimacy to their overall fake narrative. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Charlemagne

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Charlemagne said:

But the issue still remains: as a storyline... there's nothing unbelievable about it.

The scheme itself, I agree with you. It's a believable scheme. The story that Crowther gave is believable. Even by today's standards, how he described the transaction and the secrecy is believable.

When Crowther tells Oscar to keep the details to himself in the beginning, especially because Oscar was not a person that was supposed to be "in the know", that's believable to me. In my experience, I would tell Oscar the same thing, and also make him sign an NDA.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

But Oscar only profits if the entity successfully acquires the railroad. What made him so certain they would? Because Jay Gould was investing in it? So what?

In theory, yes, Oscar only profits if the entity acquires the railroad and the railroad makes money. There is never any certainty that any venture is profitable but they would contemplate an acquisition if someone believed they could make it profitable. If someone throws out a name like "Jay Gould," who was a very experienced operator and wealthy person, you'd probably make the assumption that "if Jay Gould thinks this venture is worth it, there must be something worth looking into to and if Jay Gould is leading our acquisition, this can be profitable."

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

He had no idea how much and Gould could afford to take a risk.

That's why even a man as wealthy as Jay Gould has to go out and raise capital, to spread the risk. It's believable that Jay Gould would be raising capital to acquire a railway company.

Edited December 13, 2023 by AntFTW

[sistermagpie]

40 minutes ago, Charlemagne said:

The question that he wanted answered was a question never posed in the show.

 

Right, I get that and usually I'd agree that if the show isn't saying it's a question, it's not. But I think iMonrey was asking about the specific situation of why Oscar thought he was now a railroad tycoon so could brag about it to Russell just because he'd given money.

And I get that you're saying--as I understand it--is that that wasn't the point for Oscar, that for Oscar it was enough that his company was bidding against Russell at all, and now that he was an investor he could brag about that. He just thought this company was super important and about to be successful without having done it yet.

[JenE4]

Whew, I haven’t seen things get this heated over a fake railroad transaction since my sister landed on my Reading Railroad circa 1985. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by JenE4

[AntFTW]

15 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Whew, I haven’t seen things get this heated over a fake railroad transaction since my sister landed on my Reading Railroad circa 1985. 

You made more money on that than Oscar did 😂

[tennisgurl]

Oh Oscar, you silly man. This seems like such an obvious scam but I can totally buy it being one that he would fall for. She played to his ego and his desperation, after things with Gladys fell apart he felt like he was running out of options for marrying a wealthy woman who wouldn't ask too many questions about where he goes on Thursday nights, and I think he was smarting after George basically called his marriage proposal "adorable" and patted him on the head as he left the office. He wanted to prove that he could be a big important Man of Industry like many of his peers, hence him running off to humblebrag about his big business investment to George when they saw each other. Maud played the poor guy like a fiddle and now he has not only lost all of his families wealth, he pissed off his mother. 

Its funny that Mrs. Astor basically tried the same "divide and conquer" trick on Bertha that George did on the unions, of course the Russel's knew right away what this was. I also like that the union head knew right away what George is up to, he doesn't have a big fancy education but he's a smart man and knows that George is trying to turn the workers against each other, but is going to take what he can get for now. I do think that George really didn't want any bloodshed at the strike and meeting Mr. Henriksen's family did affect his decision (George is himself very much a family man) but he's also very much a pragmatist who probably also saw him letting strikers get torn apart by bullets' is a PR nightmare that will do more harm than good. 

Peggy should listen to her mother, she is heading in a dangerous direction with Mr. Fortune. I would be raising a big eyebrow if a married man was splitting hard liquor with his hot female co-worker after hours after they already shared a kiss even today, let alone in this time period. 

Seriously? Luke and Ada couldn't even have two whole episodes together without him dropping dead? He went from having back pain to deaths door in about fifteen minutes! This really sucks, I was really hoping to get to see Aunt Ada embracing her new marriage, it would have been a new dynamic for the show, but of course we cant have that.

Marian is definitely going to start teaching at the integrated school isn't she? Poor Agnes, her son gets conned out of their families money and then her niece gets an actual job? So soon after her sister was married and widowed after about a week? Agnes is going to have a heart attack!    

[Charlemagne]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Right, I get that and usually I'd agree that if the show isn't saying it's a question, it's not. But I think iMonrey was asking about the specific situation of why Oscar thought he was now a railroad tycoon so could brag about it to Russell just because he'd given money.

And I get that you're saying--as I understand it--is that that wasn't the point for Oscar, that for Oscar it was enough that his company was bidding against Russell at all, and now that he was an investor he could brag about that. He just thought this company was super important and about to be successful without having done it yet.

Totally. A classic "put your cart before the horse" situation.

And it may even be that the con artists had hoped it would be longer before Oscar found out that he had been scammed but Oscar couldn't contain himself and spoke to George. As a result, he found out earlier than he might have - but still too late, as it turned out.

[taanja]

23 hours ago, JenE4 said:

(Oscar brought up Jay Gould’s name and Crowley never confirmed nor denied.) 

Yup

All the banker dude said was -- never mind that.

[Yours Truly]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:38 PM, quarks said:

 

4. Calling it now, without any advance spoilers: next episode, Marian realizes that she can't marry Cousin Dashiell because she doesn't love him, only to realize in the very next scene or two that she has to marry Cousin Dashiell because otherwise Agnes, Ada, Oscar and the various servants, with the exception of Clock Guy, won't have anywhere to live which is just awful, only to realize that she just can't, only to be saved at the last minute by Ada's inheritance from Rev Dead Poets. (Whoever came up with that name, thank you.) Lingering shots will suggest a future relationship between Marian and Larry.

5. Go, clock guy, go! Win that patent next episode!

 

THIS,

Has been my theory for a couple of episodes now. And BTW, I called The Rev's death when he proposed. I just thought he already knew he was dying and wanted to live in the moment and move forward with his feelings for Ada with the "life's too short" angle. I was sad to see he didn't already know. 

And yes, Marian feels obligated to marry then an inheritance from Luke affords Marian the ability to finally break off the engagement creating a millisecond of nail biting drama that will hopefully only last an episode or two.

I may be in the minority but I do like 1-2 episode conflict/resolution arcs. It's fun and it keeps the pace moving from one thing to another. It looks as if Bertha  is the only one that gets season long arch (with Mr. Russel getting the next longest season arc) which I kind of love cause she's the only character that is so enjoyable to watch connive and scheme as well as Mr. Russell. The other strong characters are good for some comic relief and or surface drama that sometimes venture a little bit under the surface at times. I don't want to be anxious for a whole season because of drawn out, angsty dilemma's and worrying. 

Also, I am almost knocked unconscious with their dresses. Oh My! do I find myself gasping regularly at the stunning and absolutely fabulous gowns. The fact that almost ALL of the characters don gorgeous dresses in every episode. Pass me the smelling salts PULEEEZZEEE!

Edited December 13, 2023 by Yours Truly

[Affogato]

I suspect Marian will know she should break up with Dashiell when he objects to her teaching at an integrated school. 

[Js Nana]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:00 PM, buttersister said:

the real question is whether or not we wait until next season to find out.

Well, there is an episode 8 coming up, so maybe that will deal with the ruin of the van Rhijn family, plus there's a season 3 teaser on you tube.

[AntFTW]

54 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I suspect Marian will know she should break up with Dashiell when he objects to her teaching at an integrated school. 

I really wanted Marian to catch feelings for Dashiell 😭

I wanted Marian to find love, and hoped that might happen with Dashiell... but... (sigh)... I guess I'll wait for Larian.

[Js Nana]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

that they were able to set up shop in an office space and building watchman has no knowledge of anyone being there.

Maybe the watchman was paid off.

[MBayGal]

On 12/11/2023 at 2:13 PM, AntFTW said:

3 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

Also, I am almost knocked unconscious with their dresses. Oh My! do I find myself gasping regularly at the stunning and absolutely fabulous gowns. The fact that almost ALL of the characters don gorgeous dresses in every episode. Pass me the smelling salts PULEEEZZEEE!

 

They certainly are incredible!!  But I always wonder how women dressed like that were ever able to go to the bathroom!  And even now, the actresses would have the same problem.  Maybe they wear Depends😉

I don't find the plots so predictable as many of you do.  Perhaps this is because I have no interest in or fondness for British royalty, so I never watched Upstairs, Downstairs, or any JF shows.  Tho I did quickly realize Ada's new life would end tragically.  I thought it was super cheesy to kill him off almost immediately.

[iMonrey]

To be clear I'm not criticizing anyone who is just fine with the whole Oscar situation. It just doesn't happen to be working for me.

It's more than just the scam itself. It's that Oscar would have clear and easy access to the entirety (or, "almost all of it") of the Van Rhijn family fortune and be able to siphon it off into a check he can hand over to somebody. I wouldn't assume it's just a hunk of cash sitting in the bank, there has to be some that isn't liquid.

There's also the questionable plausibility of everyone buying that Maud is who she claims to be. This seemed to have rested entirely on the say-so of of Aurora. She just appeared out of nowhere and got invited to all these swanky parties and galas. That was even before Oscar was the one doing the inviting.

There's a similar problem with Turner - it's not believable to me that news of her being Bertha's old maid wouldn't have spread like wildfire through the toff community. Too many servants know who she was.

It's all just too much for me to swallow. I don't feel like the writer really put the work in. The show in general has too often felt like Fellowes is just phoning it in. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by iMonrey

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Js Nana said:

Maybe the watchman was paid off.

Paid off for what, though? Him telling Oscar that the office was always empty would go against their interests if they still had any.

[Yours Truly]

12 hours ago, MBayGal said:

 

They certainly are incredible!!  But I always wonder how women dressed like that were ever able to go to the bathroom!  And even now, the actresses would have the same problem.  Maybe they wear Depends😉

I don't find the plots so predictable as many of you do.  Perhaps this is because I have no interest in or fondness for British royalty, so I never watched Upstairs, Downstairs, or any JF shows.  Tho I did quickly realize Ada's new life would end tragically.  I thought it was super cheesy to kill him off almost immediately.

Me too. I mean give her a couple of episodes with him at least. The show would have survived Ada and Agnes living apart for a bit although I knew the show was going to have to figure out a way to get Ada back into the house so I knew he was going to be a goner eventually but golly gee. I really enjoyed their romance and their time together on screen. 

[taanja]

14 hours ago, MBayGal said:

 

They certainly are incredible!!  But I always wonder how women dressed like that were ever able to go to the bathroom!  And even now, the actresses would have the same problem.  Maybe they wear Depends😉

I don't find the plots so predictable as many of you do.  Perhaps this is because I have no interest in or fondness for British royalty, so I never watched Upstairs, Downstairs, or any JF shows.  Tho I did quickly realize Ada's new life would end tragically.  I thought it was super cheesy to kill him off almost immediately.

 The costumes (dresses especially!) are simply amazing. The actual day to day grunt life is never portrayed. Think about when the women have their periods!

My grandmother -- born at the turn of the last century -- had some pretty disgusting stories about that female function!  rags anyone????

The bolded part^^^^ I think I only watched a season? maybe? of Downtown Abby. I never watched anything else by JF. 

[Baltimore Betty]

11 minutes ago, taanja said:

 The costumes (dresses especially!) are simply amazing. The actual day to day grunt life is never portrayed. Think about when the women have their periods!

My grandmother -- born at the turn of the last century -- had some pretty disgusting stories about that female function!  rags anyone????

The bolded part^^^^ I think I only watched a season? maybe? of Downtown Abby. I never watched anything else by JF. 

I have always wondered if I would be able to deal with having my period back then or deal with the clothing situation to use the lav if it were a chamber pot situation, my knees are not that strong to hover with accuracy, lol.

JF likes to wrap things up neatly, like Hollywood endings for all the deserving characters.  I could watch this with the sound muted because it is so beautiful, any story line is just fodder for me but I do enjoy this show...if I wanted real history I would watch a documentary.

 

[Js Nana]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Paid off for what

The watchman's claim that the offices Oscar identified as being occupied by "Crowther" were not occupied by anyone at that time would stymie any attempt Oscar made at finding the scammers - one question I have is how did "Crowther" and his associates get into those offices without a key?

[yellowjacket]

6 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I have always wondered if I would be able to deal with having my period back then or deal with the clothing situation to use the lav if it were a chamber pot situation, my knees are not that strong to hover with accuracy, lol.

JF likes to wrap things up neatly, like Hollywood endings for all the deserving characters.  I could watch this with the sound muted because it is so beautiful, any story line is just fodder for me but I do enjoy this show...if I wanted real history I would watch a documentary.

 

The bloomers were open (like a slit) at the crotch, so all you had to do was gather up your skirt and squat over a chamber pot or whatever.  My grandma helpfully explained this to me once.  Sixty years later I'm still mortified.

Edited December 14, 2023 by yellowjacket

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Js Nana said:

The watchman's claim that the offices Oscar identified as being occupied by "Crowther" were not occupied by anyone at that time would stymie any attempt Oscar made at finding the scammers - one question I have is how did "Crowther" and his associates get into those offices without a key?

Not any more than any other thing the security guard would say naturally. There's no need to pay the guy to tell Oscar he's been scammed, should he come looking. If he just shrugged Oscar would be in the exact same boat, only maybe with a tiny bit of unrealistic hope they moved offices.

[norcalgal]

5 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

The bloomers were open (like a slit) at the crotch, so all you had to do was gather up your skirt and squat over a chamber pot or whatever.  My grandma helpfully explained this to me once.  Sixty years later I'm still mortified.

Um, not trying to gross anyone out, but was the slit deliberately wide enough so women could do a #2?  If yes, might as well just have a giant cut out instead of a slit.  
ps…add me to the ranks of women soooo glad I live in a time period of more forgiving womens’ clothing.

[taanja]

12 hours ago, norcalgal said:

Um, not trying to gross anyone out, but was the slit deliberately wide enough so women could do a #2?  If yes, might as well just have a giant cut out instead of a slit.  
ps…add me to the ranks of women soooo glad I live in a time period of more forgiving womens’ clothing.

You also have to remember -- this was normal.

No indoor plumbing yet. You can't miss what doesn't even exist!!!

This is all they would know. The more privileged women perhaps had an easier time? They had maids to empty the chamber pots and to clean garments (and wash out the rags!)

[oceanblue]

Quote

 It's believable that Jay Gould would be raising capital to acquire a railway company.

It is.  Only a complete fool would risk all one's funds on one risky investment,

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, oceanblue said:

It is.  Only a complete fool would risk all one's funds on one risky investment,

Yes, a greedy fool. "Never put on a risky investment more money than you are ready to lose."

Oscar could have got a decent interest on his and family's money in order to live well, but that wasn't enough for him. 

[pasdetrois]

Never mind. A previous poster answered my question.

Edited December 16, 2023 by pasdetrois

[Scarlett45]

On 12/10/2023 at 9:10 PM, iMonrey said:

Agnes doesn't come off well either entrusting her entire fortune to her son. She knows he is prone to be reckless and make choices she doesn't approve of. I can't imagine any reason she would have allowed him access to withdraw the entirety of their accounts.

How do we it was ever her money to entrust to him? When her husband died he may have left it ALL to Oscar (or most of it) legally and he didn’t bother managing it because his mother had good sense. His personal income from the bank he probably used to keep his room/clothes/spending cash. What may be left was the little that was in Agnes’ name alone. 
 

After Agnes’ brother spent the family fortune and left them penniless I could see her watching the money closely, but her son is an adult- she can’t stop him from accessing the money his father left him. AND it just happened THAT DAY, wasn’t as if he had been taking it months at a time and she didn’t notice (never mind being preoccupied by Luke’s illness). 

It looks like Oscar was a damn fool when he was too old to be one, not that Agnes did anything wrong. 

On 12/13/2023 at 2:38 PM, tennisgurl said:

Peggy should listen to her mother, she is heading in a dangerous direction with Mr. Fortune. I would be raising a big eyebrow if a married man was splitting hard liquor with his hot female co-worker after hours after they already shared a kiss even today, let alone in this time period. 

I know!! Peggy is so sweet, but the black community is too small. She will be ruined if anyone gets a HINT of scandal and 1. Never get a job at a black publishing establishment again, 2. Socially ruined and unable to marry a guy from the community. And as we know Mr Fortune will continue on without any consequences. 

I blame the writers- why couldn’t they have made him a single junior editor so Peggy could have a nice romance?!!!!

[Scarlett45]

On 12/13/2023 at 4:02 PM, Affogato said:

I suspect Marian will know she should break up with Dashiell when he objects to her teaching at an integrated school. 

I could see this. 

 

On 12/11/2023 at 5:42 AM, Trillian said:

Small nitpick about the scene where Marion meets Larry and she’s all decked out in pretty pastels:  there’s been a death in the family and there’s a dead body in the house. Shouldn’t there be a mourning wreath on the door and the inhabitants wearing black?  That felt jarring to me. 

He died that night, it was only a few hours before. I could see her not changing yet. 

[Roseanna]

On 12/18/2023 at 4:28 AM, Scarlett45 said:

It looks like Oscar was a damn fool when he was too old to be one

Age nor intelligence does not prevent one from being scammed.

Maud was really good: she spent time with Oscar and learned to "read" him, so that she could present herself as a person who was in perfect sync with him.

[Ilovepie]

On 12/11/2023 at 3:31 PM, BeatrixK said:

I love Larry and Marion and I don't care who knows it!

I do too! They both seem like actual friends and their conversation feels natural. I hope this doesn't get strung out too long - Marion can only get away with so many broken engagements before getting some kind of reputation!