S02.E06: Warning Shots

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, buttersister said:

You bet he is. Who’s rooting for the guy who gets strikers and their families killed on camera? Not to mention the almost hilarious point that he and his shittier owner were in the line of fire.

With all the speculation on board, are we looking at Oscar and Agnes (because Oscar) losing their fortune and they and Ada (Rev wasn’t rich) will be supported by the newly rich (and still single, I predict) Marion and her somehow magical stocks? (Waves to Matthew Crawley.)

I wonder if Luke will turn out to be from old Boston money. The parish is probably owned by the church, so she couldn't continue to live there. But maybe she has money?

[oceanblue]

All Marian had to do was to play the silly little fool card and simper that she was so surprised!  She's just overwhelmed!  She must gather her thoughts before she answers!  then she can tell him to pound sand privately.  I think she thought she was being a good family member by going to the tea not auditioning for new Mommy.

[Hanahope]

Yeah Maud waiting outside for Oscar is a clear sign she’s in on the scam.  She and the banker are skipping town now.  
 

[caburrito]

I think there is a ton of evidence that points to Beaton and Crowther scamming Oscar, but what gives me slight pause is Beaton visiting Aurora to feel her out to see if Oscar is just a gold digger and Crowther laying on the whole "Are you sure you want to do this to poor little Maude? She's so innocent, she doesn't deserve to be used" angle so thickly. So I am wondering if maybe this isn't a scam, but a test devised by Maud/Gould to determine if Oscar really is worthy of her and her fortune. I mean, at every turn, Crowther is saying "don't do this," but Oscar just keeps going ahead with it. Maybe Crowther is a Pinkerton?

That would make a lot of the evidence it's a scam red herrings, though, and this doesn't seem to be a show that does red herrings. Scam or test, a lot of work has gone into it.

Who is Maud's "paid companion" Aurora mentioned? That's another monkey wrench because there have also been a few hints that Maud is looking for a beard just like Oscar is.

[Js Nana]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:05 PM, Haleth said:

she’ll agree to a marriage she doesn’t want because she doesn’t have the backbone to speak her mind.

I don't think it's a matter of not having a backbone, I think Marion was trying to think of some way to politely turn Dashiell down when she caught the pleading look on France's face and gave in because she didn't want to make Frances unhappy - I think it's more a case of Frances being the one Marion really cares about.

[Js Nana]

Am I the only one who thinks there's something off about Dashiell Montgomery; first he disparages Marion's vocation by telling her that she's not a real teacher, then he pulls a surprise proposal in front of an audience, depending on social peer pressure to get Marion to accept his proposal - my guess is that if Marion does marry Dashiell, she's going to find herself, quite literally, a prisoner in the marriage - and if I was Marion, I think I'd like to know what Dashiell's first wife, Harriet, actually did die of.

[norcalgal]

11 hours ago, ahpny said:

Though I suppose the "clock alarm patent" tangent was of scant interest to most, and possibly an amusing diversion from weighter issues like strike violence and opera box ownership, it was of some interest to those familar with patents because it was flagrantly misrepresentative of the patenting process and just wrong in almost every way.

While the current patenting process isn't identical to that in place in the 1880's, the current process isn't fundamentally different from that 140 years ago.

@ahpny as a fellow traveler in the arcane world of intellectual property, bravo! You brilliantly outlined the process better than I could have.  Maybe we should exchange “most bizarre or dumb patent” stories.   🤪

8 minutes ago, Js Nana said:

I don't think it's a matter of not having a backbone, I think Marion was trying to think of some way to politely turn Dashiell down when she caught the pleading look on France's face and gave in because she didn't want to make Frances unhappy - I think it's more a case of Frances being the one Marion really cares about.

The show imo, has made it abundantly obvious Marion doesn’t have romantic feelings for the father.

[buckboard]

On 12/3/2023 at 7:00 PM, Bean421 said:

 I still got teary when Agnes came to comfort Ada.  

I found Agnes's coming to comfort Ada as more self-serving than mere comforting of her sister.  Agnes assumed her sister would be grateful for her offer of help to care for the ill reverend.  With her husband gone, Ada would come back to live with Agnes.  It all works out for Agnes who never wanted Ada to leave her.

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't think they will because they are actually three separate stories. George's concern is based in Philadelphia. Peggy is focusing on young (school-age) Black children. Marian is teaching (White) immigrant adults, and working at a school for wealthy young (White) girls. There is very little overlap between the groups.

I thought it was interesting that Marian took the commitment to teaching immigrants more seriously than her co-workers. It seems as though almost everyone except Marian saw it as something charitable for young women to fill their time with between the more "important" activities needed to maintain's one status as a proper young women and finding a suitable husband.

Well, even George asked if there was a school for workers' kids (although as a robber baron he would irl favor child labor which is cheaper). So plots are separate, but there is a common theme that is quite interesting.

On the other hand, companies need workers who have basic skills in reading and writing (and English). On the other hand, literate people are more difficult to handle which is why (at least I suppose) Black schools must be suppressed. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Roseanna
take out double

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, oceanblue said:

All Marian had to do was to play the silly little fool card and simper that she was so surprised!  She's just overwhelmed!  She must gather her thoughts before she answers!  then she can tell him to pound sand privately.  I think she thought she was being a good family member by going to the tea not auditioning for new Mommy.

Yes, she didn't want to embarrass Dashiell openly before relatives and friends, so she should have taken the line you suggest. After all, asking time to consider a proposal (and even asking advice of family) was normal in that age.    

5 hours ago, Js Nana said:

Am I the only one who thinks there's something off about Dashiell Montgomery; first he disparages Marion's vocation by telling her that she's not a real teacher, then he pulls a surprise proposal in front of an audience, depending on social peer pressure to get Marion to accept his proposal - my guess is that if Marion does marry Dashiell, she's going to find herself, quite literally, a prisoner in the marriage - and if I was Marion, I think I'd like to know what Dashiell's first wife, Harriet, actually did die of.

I agree with you how Dashiel's behavior looks like from the modern POV. Yet, I don't think he is an evil man, he just is a quite usual man of that age. From his own POV, he offers Marion a privileged life without material worries and because she is penniless, of course she gratefully accepts his proposal.

They aren't impossible couple, but he hurried too much. He should have taken time to learn her personality, tastes and plans and after they had become friends maybe some more had been born. But it was enough to him that she seemed outwardly suitable for his wife and step-mother for his daughter. 

 

[cameron]

The Reverend Mr. Forte's bad back equals cancer really reminds me  of Jimmy Valvano in his courageous fight with cancer that started with pain in his back.  Usually a sign of cancer that has metastasized.

Edited December 5, 2023 by cameron

[Hana Chan]

On 12/3/2023 at 11:01 PM, RachelKM said:

Oh look, George Russell is a good robber baron!  🙄

Yup. They totally wimped out here. Historically, the robber barons were absolutely brutal in trying to crush the strikers and many people lost their lives as a result. And it's not as if we didn't watch George in the past season go out of his way to absolutely ruin people who crossed him, including driving a man to suicide. Hell, he built an entire rail line just to fuck over someone who was playing a little too hardball for his liking. But ordering troops to fire on strikers was the bridge too far for him? 

 

20 hours ago, chaifan said:

And, yes, I can see George having a soft spot for the workers - he and Bertha came from modest backgrounds, he knows what it is like to work. 

They might have come from modest backgrounds, but I haven't seen anything in their behavior that indicates some real sympathy for the plight of the working man. Bertha can't even respect that her former lady's maid managed to claw her way to the wealthy class and looks down upon her because she'd started out as a servant.

[taanja]

17 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

 

Oh, and there's one thing that has bothered me since Season 1.  Marion shows up to Peggy's house with a carpetbag full of old shoes.  Uh, did she like totally IGNORE the way Peggy was dressed or the shoes she was wearing prior to this? Peggy was always beautifully and smartly attired - she wasn't having to switch between three dresses all the time and I'm sure her shoes were well cared for.  Why the hell would Marion not see her as a woman of good family?  

Unconscious prejudice/bias.

ALL black (Colored) people are poor dontchaknow?

[iMonrey]

17 hours ago, ofmd said:

But maybe Oscar has been entrusted with taking care of the family money and now "invests" that, too? Or he'll convince his mother to invest in this totally safe railroad-or-whatever.

That seems overly contrived, even for this show. It would also make everyone involved, including Agnes, look like an idiot. I don't want to see "Anges is now poor because of Oscar," that's just stupid and unrealistic. Even dumber would be Ada inheriting a fortune from her dead husband of one day. I realize this isn't Shakespeare but please, even Julian Fellowes can't be that hackneyed.

Quote

it was flagrantly misrepresentative of the patenting process and just wrong in almost every way.

You might even say it was "patently absurd." 😃

[Tango64]

Did people really do public proposals in that era? I actually don't know, but it felt so contrary to the highly mannered style of courtship and approach to public behavior among this crowd.

I wondered the same when the reverend proposed and then made out with Ada in church, in front of the choir. But this proposal was even more ostentatiously public.

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

 

I agree with you how Dashiel's behavior looks like from the modern POV. Yet, I don't think he is an evil man, he just is a quite usual man of that age. From his own POV, he offers Marion a privileged life without material worries and because she is penniless, of course she gratefully accepts his proposal.

 

Yes, he's clearly just entitled and it hasn't occurred to him he's overlooking anything. He doesn't think "you're not a real teacher" is an insult. He probably thinks it's a compliment. She's not some silly working girl who has a boss. She's a lady doing them a favor and showing how generous she is by helping them. Likewise he'd probably surprised if someone told him she's never shown romantic interest in him because first, look what she's been doing, and second...why wouldn't she?

1 hour ago, Tango64 said:

Did people really do public proposals in that era? I actually don't know, but it felt so contrary to the highly mannered style of courtship and approach to public behavior among this crowd.

 

I thought the same thing. I just don't believe anyone in that crowd wouldn't have been repulsed by that. Why would they want to watch some guy get up and start making a speech about his private lovey-dovey romantic feelings, much less get down on one knee in the grass in front of them. They wouldn't want to be dragged into what should be a private, frank undignified moment.

At least, that's what I thought about it.

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Well, even George asked if there was a school for workers' kids (although as a robber baron he would irl favor child labor which is cheaper). So plots are separate, but there is a common theme that is quite interesting.

The common theme of education is interesting as it relates to the women, especially Peggy's mother. It is activism, but it is "appropriate activism" because it is something a women should be involved with (children and education). She is not meddling in "real" politics or something that is outside of a proper's woman domain. 

[chaifan]

7 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Bertha can't even respect that her former lady's maid managed to claw her way to the wealthy class and looks down upon her because she'd started out as a servant.

Oh, I think she mostly looks down on her because she tried to sleep with George.  And she was after Larry, too. 

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't want to see "Anges is now poor because of Oscar," that's just stupid and unrealistic. Even dumber would be Ada inheriting a fortune from her dead husband of one day. I realize this isn't Shakespeare but please, even Julian Fellowes can't be that hackneyed.

Oh, I think JF can easily be that hackneyed.  😁 I don't think either storyline is Shakespeare, but I do think that Oscar losing Agnes' money, or the home, or both, and Ada coming to the rescue with an inheritance from Luke would make for a very interesting shifty in dynamics in the VR household. 

Oscar is being scammed.  That is almost certain.  I think the two big questions here are:  a) is Maude involved in the scam, or is she an innocent victim?  and b) how much money will Oscar lose?  OK, there's also c) how much of that is Agnes' money?  I personally believe Maude is involved, and the lawyer supposedly looking out for her is all part of the act to make her look so naive and innocent. 

Does anyone remember how Aurora knows Maude?  I've been meaning to find that scene at the tennis match when Maude is first introduced, but I haven't had a chance to do that. 

Back to George for a minute...  While I can't say for certain there wasn't an actual robber baron in history with a heart of gold, I would say that's unlikely and playing George in this fashion is stretching historical accuracy. But I don't care.  I'm not here for historical accuracy in all respects.  Also, I wouldn't say George has a "heart of gold".  Rather, he doesn't have a penchant for bloodshed, especially not on the front steps of his own factory.  (Seriously, there would have been significant monetary losses if the militia had engaged.)  I think he is being played as someone with foresight to know that the workers will revolt if conditions don't improve, and he's trying to head that off with concessions.  From the train wreck last season, he understands bad publicity is bad for business.  I think George trying to negotiate with the union is consistent for the character, and to me, that matters more than the strict historical accuracy of the story line. 

[Feline Goddess]

On 12/4/2023 at 9:52 AM, ahpny said:

Though I suppose the "clock alarm patent" tangent was of scant interest to most, and possibly an amusing diversion from weighter issues like strike violence and opera box ownership, it was of some interest to those familar with patents because it was flagrantly misrepresentative of the patenting process and just wrong in almost every way.

While the current patenting process isn't identical to that in place in the 1880's, the current process isn't fundamentally different from that 140 years ago.

First, there has never been a patent office in New York City.

Second, the only patent office - in Washington D.C. (or more precisely Crystal City, Virginia now)- is not like the DMV, where you fill out a form and wait on line for anything.

Third, you send an application that tells the Patent Office why you should be entitled to a patent because your invention is new and non-obvious. That application is "prosecuted" by the Patent Office, i.e., an Patent Office Examiner considers whether your application is worthy of issuing as a patent by assessing how different it is from prior art - stuff that came before. That process can and take years. 

Fourth, a patent application would never be rejected because the applicant isn't a member of some specific group. That's just stupid. There's never been any provision like that in the patent laws of this country.

The filing fees mentioned in this episode do seem to be historically in the ball park, however. But today, and presumably then as well, the lion's share of the cost of filing a patent application isn't the application filing fees charged by the Patent Office, but the fees a patent lawyer charges to write the patent application. While anyone can file a patent application (and you don't necessarily need a patent lawyer to do that), the patent application rules are so byzantine that it's almost impossible for a pro se applicant to file his or her own patent application.

For those who want to wade into the weeds on this, see https://www.ipmall.info/content/patent-history-materials-index-brief-history-united-states-patent-office-its-foundation-1790

A friend has a patent and it took her years for it to be awarded and cost her $15,000. Anyone with anything similar just has to have a slight difference in their idea and it doesn't violate an existing patent. My friend found that out the hard way. 

[Atlanta]

Bertha doesn't like Turnteron because she tried to sleep with George and Larry. If she was regular Miss Enid Turner who married a rich widower, she would have no issue.

[RachelKM]

7 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Bertha doesn't like Turnteron because she tried to sleep with George and Larry. If she was regular Miss Enid Turner who married a rich widower, she would have no issue.

I will add that, even with her shock at seeing her former maid as Mrs. Winterton, Bertha pragmatically put it aside and seemed prepared to make the adjustment.  It was Turnerton (I enjoy that) that was bent on slinging barbs and pressing her new status as part of the Old Money set. 

Now Bertha wants Turnerton to suffer. Or maybe that's just me. 

[ofmd]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

That seems overly contrived, even for this show. It would also make everyone involved, including Agnes, look like an idiot. I don't want to see "Anges is now poor because of Oscar," that's just stupid and unrealistic. Even dumber would be Ada inheriting a fortune from her dead husband of one day. I realize this isn't Shakespeare but please, even Julian Fellowes can't be that hackneyed.

 

I mean... Speaking of Fellowes... I personally think that

Spoiler

having the new fiancée of one of the star-crossed lovers pass away after watching the not-yet-couple kiss, and give the meant-to-be couple a fortune plus her blessing before she passes

is even more hackneyed, but YMMV. That's not to say the envisioned scenario will really play out, of course.

Also, as far as we know, Oscar has been a decent banker so far, so why wouldn't he be entrusted with taking care of the family money? I don't think it would make Agnes look stupid.

ETA: Someone wrote that Ada wouldn't be mean or vengeful if she got the upper hand in terms of money. I absolutely agree, but a shift in power dynamics can be more subtle. Ada feeling free to speak her mind because she isn't the poor spinster anymore who has to be grateful for her sister supporting her, and so on. Plus the knowledge she doesn't have to live with Agnes if she doesn't want to.

Edited December 5, 2023 by ofmd

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Bertha doesn't like Turnteron because she tried to sleep with George and Larry. If she was regular Miss Enid Turner who married a rich widower, she would have no issue.

 

5 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I will add that, even with her shock at seeing her former maid as Mrs. Winterton, Bertha pragmatically put it aside and seemed prepared to make the adjustment.  It was Turnerton (I enjoy that) that was bent on slinging barbs and pressing her new status as part of the Old Money set. 

Now Bertha wants Turnerton to suffer. Or maybe that's just me. 

Yes, that's what I was going to say too. Bertha really hasn't had anything personal against Turner. She was shocked and horrified when Turner showed up as Mrs. Winterton, of course, but part of that was not knowing what to do since she doesn't just know this woman was a maid, she was *her* maid. But she decided to just not say anything. Turnerton holds it against her that she told everyone she had a sketchy past, but she didn't even do that. She even openly said she wasn't going to out her and Turnerton's response was to mock her by saying she slept with her husband!

I think in some ways Bertha can't hate Turner that much even in this incarnation because she's simply not of the elite so she doesn't have enough strong feelings about her. She gets angry at her when she's attacking her, but she'd feel that about just about anybody.

[AntFTW]

22 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Bertha doesn't like Turnteron because she tried to sleep with George and Larry. If she was regular Miss Enid Turner who married a rich widower, she would have no issue.

10 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I will add that, even with her shock at seeing her former maid as Mrs. Winterton, Bertha pragmatically put it aside and seemed prepared to make the adjustment.  It was Turnerton (I enjoy that) that was bent on slinging barbs and pressing her new status as part of the Old Money set. 

Now Bertha wants Turnerton to suffer. Or maybe that's just me. 

Turnerton! 😂🤣

The fact that Bertha is even letting Turnerton into her house, knowing what she knows, blows my mind!

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, that's what I was going to say too. Bertha really hasn't had anything personal against Turner. She was shocked and horrified when Turner showed up as Mrs. Winterton, of course, but part of that was not knowing what to do since she doesn't just know this woman was a maid, she was *her* maid.

Agreed. Turner knows where all the bodies are buried in the Russell house.

[shang yiet]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:08 PM, lucindabelle said:

Peggy’s storylines bore me. I don’t turn on this show to be immersed in the social issues of the day- similarly if we spent many weeks on the strike I’d be bored with that. TBH I’m here for the clothes.

Same here. I feel like every Peggy scene is like being hit with a condensed history book. Boring. And so not subtle. Of course boorish white racists would burst into the restaurant.....

Quote

where the social issues of the white people are presented in ways where we're personally invested, with Peggy it's just an abstract thing where she's Donig What's Right. So somehow things that are far far more important (like Civil Rights) are far less important than who gets the central box at the opera.

I felt that way with Downton Abbey. Mary and Edith are allowed their personal quirks and flaws but Sybil had to be always Doing What's Right, which is why I found her the most boring sister.

Tired of the clock which is getting more airtime than some major characters. Still don't care about the servants, I can't remember why one butler has to forgive the other, don't care about the dead wife.

Quote

Did people really do public proposals in that era? 

That scene just doesn't ring true to the 1880s old money circles. I almost expected Agnes to get out her smartphone to record the moment.

 

[SnapHappy]

They better not kill off pastor Luke & have Ada become a lesbian....

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by SnapHappy

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

ETA: Someone wrote that Ada wouldn't be mean or vengeful if she got the upper hand in terms of money. I absolutely agree, but a shift in power dynamics can be more subtle. Ada feeling free to speak her mind because she isn't the poor spinster anymore who has to be grateful for her sister supporting her, and so on. Plus the knowledge she doesn't have to live with Agnes if she doesn't want to.

Plus the odd dynamic of both of them being widows, but one had a long and unhappy marriage she didn't want and the other had a short, happy one she did want. Agnes would be poor in more ways than one.

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

Rather, he doesn't have a penchant for bloodshed, especially not on the front steps of his own factory.

I would agree.  I think he cares for his workers, but more in a "Look at what I've given you, and now you want more?  Why aren't you more grateful?" kind of way.  It struck me as naive that someone who employs child labor doesn't realize that school is either not available, or not a priority, for his workers.  I would also agree that he is not prepared to let people die because of union issues, which I'm sure the other robber barons will see as weakness.  

 

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

 

Does anyone remember how Aurora knows Maude?  I've been meaning to find that scene at the tennis match when Maude is first introduced, but I haven't had a chance to do that. 

From what I remember, she introduces them at the party, but I'm not sure if she specifies how she met her.  I know she tells Oscar she thinks Maude has money and has been in Paris.  She also says Maude's mother was a Stuyvesant and her illegitimate father might be Jay Gould.  My thought now is most of what Aurora tells Oscar is based on second hand gossip rather than verifiable fact.          

[norcalgal]

26 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

She also says Maude's mother was a Stuyvesant and her illegitimate father might be Jay Gould.

If Maud truly is a Stuyvesant and also the daughter of Gould (illegitimate, but still…), wouldn’t she have lots of money?  Why would she be part of a scam to bilk people of their money?  I’m still on the fence about whether Maud is in on the scam, but I lean on the side that Oscar is being hoodwinked.

[izabella]

19 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I would agree.  I think he cares for his workers, but more in a "Look at what I've given you, and now you want more?  Why aren't you more grateful?" kind of way.  It struck me as naive that someone who employs child labor doesn't realize that school is either not available, or not a priority, for his workers.  I would also agree that he is not prepared to let people die because of union issues, which I'm sure the other robber barons will see as weakness.  

I think he doesn't want headlines about all the dead people he ordered shot at his factory.  Maybe he is thinking of the children, but he's also thinking about Bertha.  It wouldn't help her to attract more people to her opera house if everyone is talking about her husband and the deaths of his workers.

Maybe it's just harder to order the deaths of people when you are standing there looking at them face to face, instead of making those decisions from an office in NY.

[Sarah 103]

59 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I would agree.  I think he cares for his workers, but more in a "Look at what I've given you, and now you want more?  Why aren't you more grateful?" kind of way.  It struck me as naive that someone who employs child labor doesn't realize that school is either not available, or not a priority, for his workers. 

I agree with your assessment of George. Also, for most working-class children, free public school may have been an option. Attendance laws varied from state to state, but most working-class families needed the extra income. It made more sense for the family to have the child working and bringing in another income as opposed to the child being in school.   

[Atlanta]

I really hope the rev's illness is a misdiagnosis. Please let Ada have a few years of happiness. It would be funny if he came from old Boston money and leaves the majority to her. I would like to see the dynamic change between the sisters. Agnes bulldozes everyone and it gets old and makes me dislike her. 

It would be nice if Peggy could start a society of lady writers.

I want Larian as the end game. He seems like he'd encourage her art and teaching. Can't imagine Bertha and Agnes being in-laws. LOL If that happens we need a funny Christmas dinner episode in the future.

[Js Nana]

18 hours ago, Roseanna said:

because she is penniless, of course she gratefully accepts his proposal.

I am still of the opinion that Marian would have turned down Dashiell's proposal if he didn't have a young daughter she cared about - and I still say that by either late 19th century standards, or today's standards, there is something off about Dashiell Montgomery and that if Marian does go ahead with marrying him, she will, quite literally, be a prisoner in that marriage - speaking only with her husband's approval and being allowed to be involved only in those activities her husband permits.

[JenE4]

12 hours ago, norcalgal said:

If Maud truly is a Stuyvesant and also the daughter of Gould (illegitimate, but still…), wouldn’t she have lots of money?  Why would she be part of a scam to bilk people of their money?  I’m still on the fence about whether Maud is in on the scam, but I lean on the side that Oscar is being hoodwinked.

That’s part why a lot of us think it’s a scam because she’s not Jay Gould’s child. She likely invented these rumors about herself to draw people in on the scam. Maude seems to be a love scam and a Ponzi scheme all rolled into one. I don’t know how commonplace this was in the 1880s, but nowadays lots of people (according to my TV) seem to fall for these scams where they think they’re in love with someone with money (sometimes claiming to be related to royalty/notoriety), only to be bilked out of money. They shower the next person with money they stole from the first person, only to take you for every penny you have and move on to the next. Interesting that “Jay Gould’s possible illegitimate child” suddenly waltzed into town from Paris, presumably after bilking people there.

[SnapHappy]

So Marian can marry Dashiell, have a nice honeymoon, then he gets mowed down by a runaway carriage.  Marian is a widow with some cash & a cute daughter she can raise as an independent young woman, with Peggy's help. 

If the "center" Opera box is such a big deal, why can't that box be divided & re-built so the dead center of the stage faces TWO boxes next to each other.  Center right, and Center left.  Russells in one, Winterton's in the other.    Neither has a better view or any advantage.  They both win.

Isn't Larry doing architecture?  Put the boy on THAT instead of in the bed of a randy widow.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by SnapHappy

[taanja]

15 hours ago, norcalgal said:

If Maud truly is a Stuyvesant and also the daughter of Gould (illegitimate, but still…), wouldn’t she have lots of money?  Why would she be part of a scam to bilk people of their money?  I’m still on the fence about whether Maud is in on the scam, but I lean on the side that Oscar is being hoodwinked.

None of it has ever been verified -- it's just 'rumored' or assumed.

Aurora even said to Maude one time -- and you'll inherit a fortune (paraphrasing) and Maude does NOT agree or disagree. 

[AntFTW]

15 hours ago, norcalgal said:

If Maud truly is a Stuyvesant and also the daughter of Gould (illegitimate, but still…), wouldn’t she have lots of money? Why would she be part of a scam to bilk people of their money?

If she truly is, then yes. However, we don't really know if she's a Stuyvesant or the daughter of Jay Gould. The rumor is that her father is Jay Gould, but it's just a rumor.

Maud Beaton appears to have money. She seems to be able to keep up with the other wealthy folks. The question is where does her money come from. Is it family wealth or is she scamming people?

15 hours ago, norcalgal said:

I’m still on the fence about whether Maud is in on the scam, but I lean on the side that Oscar is being hoodwinked.

Same. I'm on the fence but I do think Oscar will ultimately lose his money.

[JenE4]

31 minutes ago, taanja said:

None of it has ever been verified -- it's just 'rumored' or assumed.

Aurora even said to Maude one time -- and you'll inherit a fortune (paraphrasing) and Maude does NOT agree or disagree. 

Right. Even in the lawyer’s office, Oscar is the one who keeps bringing up Jay Gould’s name, like Gould is investing? Even the lawyer then just talks about the primary investors in general, never giving names. Frankly, Oscar is tripping over himself to get involved, and both Maude and the lawyer can rightfully claim that we never told you we were related to/involved with Jay Gould. Now the question is how is Aurora involved in this? She seems to just be the one passing along the rumors, and was seemingly upset with herself for implying to Maude that Oscar was a fortune hunter, but I think she’s only involved to say that this info is coming through a third party.

Edited December 6, 2023 by JenE4

[AntFTW]

WHAT IF THE BANKER/LAWYER/BUSINESS MANAGER GUY IS MAUD'S REAL FATHER????

Just now, JenE4 said:

Frankly, Oscar is scamming himself

Exactly! Nobody had to convince or lure Oscar to do anything. Nobody had to lay a mind trap to convince Oscar that it was his idea to visit this guy's office. Oscar literally convinced himself. If it's a scam and Maud is in on it, she didn't have to do anything.

[AntFTW]

18 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Now the question is how is Aurora involved in this?

Nothing more than a gossiper.

[iMonrey]

23 hours ago, Tango64 said:

Did people really do public proposals in that era? I actually don't know, but it felt so contrary to the highly mannered style of courtship and approach to public behavior among this crowd.

I wondered the same when the reverend proposed and then made out with Ada in church, in front of the choir. But this proposal was even more ostentatiously public.

In both cases we're talking about older couples, not young people who would normally "court" under the supervision of parents or chaperones. Neither Ada nor Marian has parents a prospective groom would ask permission of. I don't know how "realistic" a public proposal is but Dashiell is an widow with a child, not a young man courting a girl for the first time. (Marian is young-ish, of course, but her prospects may be somewhat limited, and she's past the ingenue stage.)

17 hours ago, SnapHappy said:

They better not kill off pastor Luke & have Ada become a lesbian....

And start dating someone name Che!

[rollacoaster]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:26 PM, caburrito said:

I think there is a ton of evidence that points to Beaton and Crowther scamming Oscar, but what gives me slight pause is Beaton visiting Aurora to feel her out to see if Oscar is just a gold digger and Crowther laying on the whole "Are you sure you want to do this to poor little Maude? She's so innocent, she doesn't deserve to be used" angle so thickly. So I am wondering if maybe this isn't a scam, but a test devised by Maud/Gould to determine if Oscar really is worthy of her and her fortune. I mean, at every turn, Crowther is saying "don't do this," but Oscar just keeps going ahead with it. Maybe Crowther is a Pinkerton?

That would make a lot of the evidence it's a scam red herrings, though, and this doesn't seem to be a show that does red herrings. Scam or test, a lot of work has gone into it.

Who is Maud's "paid companion" Aurora mentioned? That's another monkey wrench because there have also been a few hints that Maud is looking for a beard just like Oscar is.

That Maude and Crowther are testing oscar would be a fabulous plot twist! Which prolly means that it won't happen.

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

However, we don't really know if she's a Stuyvesant or the daughter of Jay Gould. The rumor is that her father is Jay Gould, but it's just a rumor.

I don't remember Maude's introduction (in the episode with the tennis match) well enough, and I don't know where in the Stuyvesant family she's supposed to fall (a daughter, or some far way cousin?) so I have two alternate theories...  if she is a known, direct-line Stuyvesant, meaning someone knows 100% she is of that family, then I would say she is also being scammed.  If her identity as a Stuyvesant has not been confirmed by someone in that circle, then I think it's more likely that she is an impersonator, and is in on the scam. 

I think it's more likely it's the second situation.  She's holding herself out to be a Stuyvesant relation, not someone in the immediate NYC family.  (I have to assume those people would be well known among the old-money crowd.)  And she's 100% in on the scam. This is how it looks to me, but I didn't remember her supposed society connection until someone mentioned the Stuyvesant's upthread.  I don't know what the purpose of the "being fathered by Jay Gould" rumor is supposed to be, except that type of rumor would fit more in with her being a relation than a direct NYC Stuyvesant.  (Because that would be spreading a rumor that Mrs. Stuyvesant, a powerful woman, had an affair with Jay Gould, and I don't think Aurora would idly discuss such things in public.)

Also, if she's claiming to be a Stuyvesant relation - distant cousin or something - that would allow her to breeze in to a place like Newport, introduce herself to someone like Aurora, and not really arouse suspicions. 

The only thing that bugs me about this set up is where are the real Stuyvesants?  They were NYC elite, you'd think they would be part of the Opera wars, known by Mrs. Astor, Mrs. Fish, etc.  And that someone would likely to say, oh we met your lovely cousin in Newport!  It would make more sense if Maude were claiming to be from an elite West Coast family, or even Boston or DC. 

Edited to add:

This whole Maude thing was bugging me, so I pulled up Episode 2.  At the big gala, Aurora tells Oscar that "officially" Maude's father is "the late John Beaton", but that it's rumored that her real father is Jay Gould, and Maude "seems" to have a lot of money at her disposal.  Aurora also tells Oscar she's "heard" Maude's mother was a Stuyvesant, but she's also dead.

Also, in Maude & Oscar's conversation earlier, Maude name drops Mrs. Drexel and Mrs. Fish, but says she's staying with friends in Newport, without giving their names.

So, two dead parents, a rumored connection to Jay Gould, but we still don't know how Aurora knows her.  Did she meet her at the party?  Did she know her prior? 

Edited December 6, 2023 by chaifan

[Sarah 103]

15 hours ago, Atlanta said:

I want Larian as the end game. He seems like he'd encourage her art and teaching. Can't imagine Bertha and Agnes being in-laws. LOL If that happens we need a funny Christmas dinner episode in the future.

This is the absolute best reason I have ever heard for Larian being endgame. Bertha and Agnes having to go to family dinners together for big important events would be fantastic. Snark to snark combat for the entire meal. 

[AntFTW]

26 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I don't remember Maude's introduction (in the episode with the tennis match) well enough, and I don't know where in the Stuyvesant family she's supposed to fall (a daughter, or some far way cousin?) so I have two alternate theories...  if she is a known, direct-line Stuyvesant, meaning someone knows 100% she is of that family, then I would say she is also being scammed.  If her identity as a Stuyvesant has not been confirmed by someone in that circle, then I think it's more likely that she is an impersonator, and is in on the scam. 

I think it's more likely it's the second situation.  She's holding herself out to be a Stuyvesant relation, not someone in the immediate NYC family.  (I have to assume those people would be well known among the old-money crowd.)  And she's 100% in on the scam. This is how it looks to me, but I didn't remember her supposed society connection until someone mentioned the Stuyvesant's upthread.  I don't know what the purpose of the "being fathered by Jay Gould" rumor is supposed to be, except that type of rumor would fit more in with her being a relation than a direct NYC Stuyvesant.  (Because that would be spreading a rumor that Mrs. Stuyvesant, a powerful woman, had an affair with Jay Gould, and I don't think Aurora would idly discuss such things in public.)

Also, if she's claiming to be a Stuyvesant relation - distant cousin or something - that would allow her to breeze in to a place like Newport, introduce herself to someone like Aurora, and not really arouse suspicions. 

The only thing that bugs me about this set up is where are the real Stuyvesants?  They were NYC elite, you'd think they would be part of the Opera wars, known by Mrs. Astor, Mrs. Fish, etc.  And that someone would likely to say, oh we met your lovely cousin in Newport!  It would make more sense if Maude were claiming to be from an elite West Coast family, or even Boston or DC.

I think it was the episode after the tennis match (maybe episode 3???), Aurora tells the family (Agnes, Ada and Marian) about Maud Beaton attending the Oscar WIlde play, and Agnes asks what do they know about her. Aurora says her mother was a Stuyvesant, so therefore I think we have to assume that she tells people her mother was a Stuyvesant.

I feel like that's verifiable information that, as far as we've seen, no one bothers to verify.

Edited December 6, 2023 by AntFTW

[ofmd]

4 hours ago, SnapHappy said:

If the "center" Opera box is such a big deal, why can't that box be divided & re-built so the dead center of the stage faces TWO boxes next to each other. 

 

Because it's not about the opera, or the view. It's about being seen as the top dog.

[chaifan]

@AntFTW I just edited my earlier post, after watching the scene - Maude was first introduced at the end of Ep 2, at the gala at the tennis court/casino.  Another conversation may have also occurred in Ep 3, the one you recall.

 

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Js Nana said:

I am still of the opinion that Marian would have turned down Dashiell's proposal if he didn't have a young daughter she cared about - and I still say that by either late 19th century standards, or today's standards, there is something off about Dashiell Montgomery and that if Marian does go ahead with marrying him, she will, quite literally, be a prisoner in that marriage - speaking only with her husband's approval and being allowed to be involved only in those activities her husband permits.

I don't even think she was thinking about being her mother at that moment, just that as much as she'd hate to humiliate Dashiell himself in front of everyone, she couldn't bear to say no to his daughter, who he'd inappropriately had present.

5 hours ago, SnapHappy said:

If the "center" Opera box is such a big deal, why can't that box be divided & re-built so the dead center of the stage faces TWO boxes next to each other.  Center right, and Center left.  Russells in one, Winterton's in the other.    Neither has a better view or any advantage.  They both win.

That's the problem. They both win. That means neither of them wins.

[Macnyc]

Someone on another chat board posted an intriguing theory: That Maud Beaton is actually being impersonated by her "paid companion." That is the reason she was waiting out on the sidewalk when Oscar arrived to pick her up. He commented on that, and she shrugged it off.

This theory makes sense only if Maud had been living in Paris for such a long period of time that no one in New York would remember what she looks like. Or that no one has even seen a photo of her. 

Conotocarious posted earlier: Google Cassie Chadwick, a real life historical figure. There’s some similarities to Maude. I think she is a scam artist.

So there's historical precedent for this theory. The real life Cassie said she was the daughter of Andrew Carnegie. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Macnyc

[chaifan]

13 minutes ago, Macnyc said:

This theory makes sense only if Maud had been living in Paris for such a long period of time that no one in New York would remember what she looks like. Or that no one has even seen a photo of her. 

Aurora told Oscar that Maud went to Paris after her mother died.  But there's no time reference for that. 

I've also considered whether the Maude that we see is really Maude Beaton or an impersonator.  If this were another series, the real Maude would have been killed in Paris and this person taken over her identity.  But I think that's too far afield for Fellowes.  I can see the companion coming into play somehow, otherwise, why was it mentioned?  It doesn't make sense for the real Maude Beaton to be in NY, but never seen, allowing her companion to impersonate her and con Oscar.  If this is an impersonation, I think it's more likely that the real Maude Beaton is still in Paris.  The Maud we see could be an ex-companion, former friend, lady's maid, etc., taking advantage of the real Maud's absence.

But again, if there's a real Maud Beaton, she would have debuted in NYC, would be known among that level of society, and someone in Newport should know her.

Holy hell, I'm putting way too much thought/time into this.