S02.E05: Close Enough to Touch

[taanja]

20 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I didn't take anything in that conversation to be flattery. Nothing the guy (wheteverthefuckheis) sounded like he was trying to flatter Oscar. Nothing he said was a compliment to Oscar, but as a surprise that Oscar knows so much about the deal.

It was not overt flattery. He (the banker dude) is at first 'hesitant" to let Oscar in the room (yeah right!) and then after Oscar states what he "knows" of this transaction - the banker dude then comments to Oscar -- Oh you are SO well informed! to which Maude batts her eyelashes and simpers -- Oh I told him everything! I hope you don't mind?

It was like scamming 101

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I was happy that Ada invited Bannister and other staff to her wedding. Would they have considered that shocking at the time?

I was thinking that was unusual. No idea if it would have been 'shocking,' but I would think people would think it strange.

 

When and by whom was the line "Close enough to touch" said? (I assume someone said it.)

[cameron]

16 minutes ago, taanja said:

It was not overt flattery. He (the banker dude) is at first 'hesitant" to let Oscar in the room (yeah right!) and then after Oscar states what he "knows" of this transaction - the banker dude then comments to Oscar -- Oh you are SO well informed! to which Maude batts her eyelashes and simpers -- Oh I told him everything! I hope you don't mind?

It was like scamming 101

I think that it's Oscar that's doing the scamming.  Think that he is going after George since he knows that George is involved with the Cleveland railroad deal.

[iMonrey]

23 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I  noticed meant something else, like SHE was suspicious of Oscar, but I think it is more interesting that Oscar, who has been on the hunt for a wife with money, would be taken advantage of.

That seems contradictory. If Oscar is a fortune hunter then he clearly needs money and would be a poor target for a scam.

Of course, it's entirely possible this is some sort of scam. But the fact that we don't seem to know who the hell they even went to meet - is he a lawyer? A business manager? - tells me this isn't being written very well.

Frankly I don't think the writing for this show is all that great. A lot of it makes very little sense. Prime example is Turner and her determination to antagonize Bertha, the very person who can blow up her whole world and ruin her social position.

[cameron]

Still think that Oscar is going after George who is involved with Jay Gould and the railroad company in Cleveland.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, taanja said:

It was not overt flattery. He (the banker dude) is at first 'hesitant" to let Oscar in the room (yeah right!) and then after Oscar states what he "knows" of this transaction - the banker dude then comments to Oscar -- Oh you are SO well informed! to which Maude batts her eyelashes and simpers -- Oh I told him everything! I hope you don't mind?

It was like scamming 101

I'm not quite convinced yet.

I'm convinced Oscar will lose his money. I'm not convinced that Maud Beatton's original intent all along was to scam Oscar.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

That seems contradictory. If Oscar is a fortune hunter then he clearly needs money and would be a poor target for a scam.

Oscar is a fortune hunter because he wants more money, not that he needs more money.

If this is a scam, that makes him a great target for a scam. However, I'm just hesitant for now to say it's a scam. I think there is something wrong. I think the show is leading us down the path of something going wrong and Oscar losing his money. I don't think I have enough information to say it's a scam yet.

[taanja]

1 hour ago, cameron said:

Still think that Oscar is going after George who is involved with Jay Gould and the railroad company in Cleveland.

IMO they have not portrayed Oscar as smart/savvy enough to conceive of such a plan much less carry it out.

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, Shermie said:

Because Bertha’s husband chose Bertha over her. 

On 11/27/2023 at 8:12 PM, DiabLOL said:

She openly hated Bertha before that - it seemed to be one reason why it would have been satisfying to sleep with her husband. 

[Carolina Girl]

On 11/27/2023 at 6:03 PM, DiabLOL said:

but I fully understand the spite impulse.

Except what should Turner expect after peeling off all her clothes and jumping uninvited into bed with the woman's husband, on the pretense that her mistress is not a supportive wife and she'd be "so much better" for him?  Even if that WAS the reason Bertha let Turner go (and we know it was not), how is Bertha the heavy in this situation?  In fact, Bertha even told Turner at the time of her surprising arrival that she was not out to make trouble for her.  If Turner had a lick of sense, she would have been relieved and let the past go.  

And why does Bertha need to be taken down a peg anymore than the various Vanderbilt folks?  They wanted to join the social circle.  They wanted to be part of Mrs. Astor's 400.  If anyone needed to be taken down a peg it was Caroline Astor.  THAT family made their money from opium before going into real estate.    

[Carolina Girl]

On 11/28/2023 at 4:37 AM, Haleth said:

The Husband Hunters by Anne de Courcy is a good read about the young American women who married British aristocrats.

Also, if you can find it, there's a series called "Million Dollar American Princesses" about the American heiresses that married British nobility.  One episode featured Conseulo Vanderbilt.  It used to be on Paramount.  

[ChlcGal]

6 hours ago, peeayebee said:

 

When and by whom was the line "Close enough to touch" said? (I assume someone said it.)

Marion said it when she was talking to Ada about her marriage to Fortes.

[Medicine Crow]

Did anyone else see Carrie c**** on Kimmel last night?  If so, what did you think of the décolleté on the dress she wore?  I really enjoyed the interview, but was distracted by her unfortunate choice.

The astericks for Carrie's last name were added by the "system".  Just sayin'!!!

 

[ofmd]

OMG, I saw the thumbnail of that segment on YT and I didn't even recognize her! The blonde hair, and also she looks so much younger... Haven't watched it yet but I don't see anything wrong with her décolleté. At all.

[amarante]

On 11/26/2023 at 8:34 PM, lucindabelle said:

The crude wh it e guys scene didn’t even feel all that menacing because it was so over the top. If people were routinely getting assaulted like that segregation etc wouldn’t have lasted so long. Booker T rather notoriously had the go along to get along philosophy and Tuskegee didn’t burn to the ground or anything.  Of course riots and massacres happen but I’m talking about just barging drunk into a restaurant and doing that. But maybe I’d believe it if we’d ever heard of those guys and had any inkling it would occur.

 

Of course the South after the end of Reconstruction was worse than depicted.

The reason segregation lasted so long was because of the terrorist tactics that were employed - lynchings and cross burnings. The Klan ruled and all of the petty despots like the county commissioner were essentially free to rule their fiefdoms without any control.

And it lasted well into the 1960's - if not longer. Southern Trees Bear Strange Fruit.

[amarante]

8 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Oscar is a fortune hunter because he wants more money, not that he needs more money.

If this is a scam, that makes him a great target for a scam. However, I'm just hesitant for now to say it's a scam. I think there is something wrong. I think the show is leading us down the path of something going wrong and Oscar losing his money. I don't think I have enough information to say it's a scam yet.

I suspect that Oscar needs more money although obviously he isn't destitute.

By the standards of the day, the Van Rijns live relatively modest life styles in their brownstone - they would be the equivalent of upper middle class and not rich. 

Keep in mind that up to WW I domestic help was extremely cheap and even middle middle class people would have domestic help full time. 

The reality is that prior to labor saving devices it was extremely hard work to keep a house clean, to cook and to perform other domestic chores. No vacuums, no refrigerators; coal fireplaces created lots of soot in homes; no washing machines; no electrical appliances like a mixer. There wasn't even an eggbeater at that time as it wasn't patented until 1884 so imagine how hard it was to cook a meal on a temperamental stove fueled by wood or coal. 

[amarante]

On 11/26/2023 at 7:12 PM, iMonrey said:

 

I wonder if Bertha would approve of Marian as a bride for Larry. She comes from a good family but might not be as upwardly mobile as Bertha would like.

 

That would be a fine match in Bertha's eyes as the son would be marrying extremely old New York aristocracy and so there would be immediate admission into the heights of New York (and Newport) society for their children. 

There would be no point for a male to marry into the English aristocracy since it was the impoverished males who needed the money in order to keep the estates going - it was transactional. 

 

 

[Medicine Crow]

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

OMG, I saw the thumbnail of that segment on YT and I didn't even recognize her! The blonde hair, and also she looks so much younger... Haven't watched it yet but I don't see anything wrong with her décolleté. At all.

You need to see a bit more than a "thumbnail" ... LOL.

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, amarante said:

By the standards of the day, the Van Rijns live relatively modest life styles in their brownstone - they would be the equivalent of upper middle class and not rich.

In that case, nearly all of the Old Money people we've been introduced to live modest lifestyles because they all live in their modest brownstones.

The only time we've seen these people seem more ostentatious is when they leave the city to their Newport mansions. They all live in modest looking brownstones.

Agnes barely leaves the house. She's definitely not going to Newport. We have no idea how Oscar lives. We've seen Oscar at all of the playgrounds for the wealthy. He has enough to constantly keep up with this wealthy crowd wherever they go. He's in Newport, at parties, lunches, balls, and dinners. He must have a decent bit of money to keep up with all of them all of the time.

Also, as I've mentioned in a previous post, the producers (and other people involved with creating the show and bringing it to our screens) have said the van Rhijns are wealthy, so I'll stick with them being Old Money wealthy unless I'm told otherwise.

Edited November 30, 2023 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, amarante said:

By the standards of the day, the Van Rijns live relatively modest life styles in their brownstone - they would be the equivalent of upper middle class and not rich. 

 

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

In that case, nearly all of the Old Money people we've been introduced to live modest lifestyles because they all live in their modest brownstones.

The only time we've seen these people seem more ostentatious is when they leave the city to their Newport mansions. They all live in modest looking brownstones.

I don't know about the US, but in Europe money wasn't only the standard of class.

And even it the show it was the "right" family, the "right" address, socializing with "right" people and finally a box in the Academy that counted. 

 

 

[peeayebee]

16 hours ago, ChlcGal said:

Marion said it when she was talking to Ada about her marriage to Fortes.

Thanx. As a side, whenever I read ‘Fortes’ I wonder for a sec who that is. 

[Sarah 103]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't know about the US, but in Europe money wasn't only the standard of class.

And even it the show it was the "right" family, the "right" address, socializing with "right" people and finally a box in the Academy that counted. 

In Europe, it was about money and the nobility/aristocracy. The nobles/aristocrats needed money to keep up their way of life. In the U.S in the era the series is set social class was all about money and being invited to the right places or accepted by the right people. However, Old Money looked down on New Money.

The series is about the cultural/historical moment when New Money was trying to gain the acceptance and approval of Old Money. It is the competition between the two. The Opera War happens because New Money realized they didn't necessarily need the Academy when they had enough money to start their own. It's a rare case of New Money rejecting Old Money society. 

[amarante]

12 hours ago, AntFTW said:

In that case, nearly all of the Old Money people we've been introduced to live modest lifestyles because they all live in their modest brownstones.

The only time we've seen these people seem more ostentatious is when they leave the city to their Newport mansions. They all live in modest looking brownstones.

Agnes barely leaves the house. She's definitely not going to Newport. We have no idea how Oscar lives. We've seen Oscar at all of the playgrounds for the wealthy. He has enough to constantly keep up with this wealthy crowd wherever they go. He's in Newport, at parties, lunches, balls, and dinners. He must have a decent bit of money to keep up with all of them all of the time.

Also, as I've mentioned in a previous post, the producers (and other people involved with creating the show and bringing it to our screens) have said the van Rhijns are wealthy, so I'll stick with them being Old Money wealthy unless I'm told otherwise.

There was a clash between the old money who were not nearly as rich as the Robber Baron who made their fortunes after the Civil War. 

The Van Rijns would have been descended from the original Dutch settlers and it was their lineage rather than their wealth that provided them with their high status. Nit very different than what occurred in the Old South where the original plantation owners retained their social clout despite their relative poverty. Wealth would not enable one’s daughter to participate in Charleston’s Saint Cecilia Ball for example. 

T

 

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, amarante said:

There was a clash between the old money who were not nearly as rich as the Robber Baron who made their fortunes after the Civil War. 

The Van Rijns would have been descended from the original Dutch settlers and it was their lineage rather than their wealth that provided them with their high status. Nit very different than what occurred in the Old South where the original plantation owners retained their social clout despite their relative poverty. Wealth would not enable one’s daughter to participate in Charleston’s Saint Cecilia Ball for example. 

T

 

I don't disagree with you about there being a clash between Old Money wealthy people and the New Money wealthier people. I've made a couple of posts about that on previous episodes. The show is taking place during a post-Civil War boom time, and new industrialists were building levels of wealth were unheard of for their day.

In the show, the Astors live in this modest brownstone with a modest looking interior, nothing ostentatious about it. From what is known about the Astors at the time of this show, they were a substantially wealthy family. Sure, the Astors weren't matching the wealth levels of the Vanderbilts and other robber barons of the era but it doesn't knock the Astors down to a lesser socioeconomic status. I say that to analogize them to the Van Rhijns. In much the same way that everyone looks poor relative to Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos, being less wealthy doesn't mean you're not wealthy.

We don't know much about the Van Rhijn finances, but they seemingly have enough to take care of Agnes for the rest of her life and have a large modest-looking brownstone with staff. Agnes wants for nothing. Agnes seemingly lives the same lifestyle as all of the other wealthy Old Money people we've seen in the show (the Morrises, the Fishes, the Astors, etc). Agnes appears to enjoy the same perks of wealth that the others do when she chooses to partake. The only difference is that she barely leaves the house, and that seems to be by choice rather than lack of financial resources. Agnes seems to prefer the modesty rather than the boastfulness of her New Money neighbors. Again, that seems to be by choice and what she considers proper and acceptable.

... and again, I'm just taking the show as it was given to me. I'm just saying if the creators and cast members of the show are telling me that these characters are wealthy, even though they appear to live in a relatively modest way, I'll take their word for it. I'll take that as truth.

Edited November 30, 2023 by AntFTW

[amarante]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

I don't disagree with you about there being a clash between Old Money wealthy people and the New Money wealthier people. I've made a couple of posts about that on previous episodes. The show is taking place during a post-Civil War boom time, and new industrialists were building levels of wealth were unheard of for their day.

In the show, the Astors live in this modest brownstone with a modest looking interior, nothing ostentatious about it. From what is known about the Astors at the time of this show, they were a substantially wealthy family. Sure, the Astors weren't matching the wealth levels of the Vanderbilts and other robber barons of the era but it doesn't knock the Astors down to a lesser socioeconomic status. I say that to analogize them to the Van Rhijns. In much the same way that everyone looks poor relative to Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos, being less wealthy doesn't mean you're not wealthy.

We don't know much about the Van Rhijn finances, but they seemingly have enough to take care of Agnes for the rest of her life and have a large modest-looking brownstone with staff. Agnes wants for nothing. Agnes seemingly lives the same lifestyle as all of the other wealthy Old Money people we've seen in the show (the Morrises, the Fishes, the Astors, etc). Agnes appears to enjoy the same perks of wealth that the others do when she chooses to partake. The only difference is that she barely leaves the house, and that seems to be by choice rather than lack of financial resources. Agnes seems to prefer the modesty rather than the boastfulness of her New Money neighbors. Again, that seems to be by choice and what she considers proper and acceptable.

... and again, I'm just taking the show as it was given to me. I'm just saying if the creators and cast members of the show are telling me that these characters are wealthy, even though they appear to live in a relatively modest way, I'll take their word for it. I'll take that as truth.

Caroline Astor lived in a home that had a brownstone facade but it was on Fifth Avenue and had four bays. The brownstones on side streets were smaller and less grand. 

It was built in 1862 by her husband - when that section of Manhattan was fashionable. She later moved into a mansion built by her son in 1892 - which was located on Fifth Avenue and 62nd Street as the more uptown areas became fashionable. 

I am not saying that Agnes was poor - far from it. But she wasn't wealthy as compared to the Robber Barons or even the Astors. The Astors had significant fortunes as well as being old money. 

It is why Oscar needs to marry a rich heiress because there isn't enough money for him to really live a deathly lifestyle. Caroline Astor's daughter would have enough money in her dowry to purchase a title. Her dowry was $2.5 million which adjusted for inflation would be $75 million in today's dollars. Oscar was looking for a bride who would bring a similar dowry.

 

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, amarante said:

I am not saying that Agnes was poor - far from it. But she wasn't wealthy as compared to the Robber Barons or even the Astors. The Astors had significant fortunes as well as being old money. 

Then were on the same page, for the most part.

I agree that she may not be as wealthy as the robber barons or the Astors. I guess our difference is that I would say that Agnes is more than upper middle class. Admittedly, I’m not sure how you define that.

7 minutes ago, amarante said:

It is why Oscar needs to marry a rich heiress because there isn't enough money for him to really live a deathly lifestyle. Caroline Astor's daughter would have enough money in her dowry to purchase a title. Her dowry was $2.5 million which adjusted for inflation would be $75 million in today's dollars. Oscar was looking for a bride who would bring a similar dowry.

I don’t think Oscar needs to marry rich. I think he wants to marry rich. Oscar wants more.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Agnes seems to prefer the modesty rather than the boastfulness of her New Money neighbors. Again, that seems to be by choice and what she considers proper and acceptable.

Yes. When people know who you are, you don't need to boast.

On the other hand, already when Marian came, Agnes paid for her many fine clothes. So she has done something to get her niece married. 

[amarante]

23 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Then were on the same page, for the most part.

I agree that she may not be as wealthy as the robber barons or the Astors. I guess our difference is that I would say that Agnes is more than upper middle class. Admittedly, I’m not sure how you define that.

I don’t think Oscar needs to marry rich. I think he wants to marry rich. Oscar wants more.

It is really hard to be precise about social classes translating  neatly into economic reality because so much of what we associate with "wealth" in 2023 was so much less expensive then. 

By upper middle class I would compare to partners in one of the large white shoe law firms. Many of them - at least until recently were in the Social Register and lived in large coops on Park Avenue. Their children went to private school. They were members of the Maidstone Club and/or Piping Rock Country Club. They often had summer homes.

They were wealthy but not on the level of the new "robber barons" - or more accurately the masters of the universe of the 1980's like the Gutfreunds or the Milkens. Susan Gutfreund was a bit like Turner as she ascended to the heights of nouveau rich-dom from her lowly start as an airline stewardess who snared a rich older man.

In the brief, wild-spending days of her Nouvelle Society reign, Susan Kaposta Penn Gutfreund—airline flight attendant turned socialite queen—cultivated her taste for things French and fine. Night after night, on the arm of her husband, John Gutfreund, head of the mighty Salomon Brothers investment bank, she would sashay into soirees dressed in opulent Christian Lacroix gowns. She bought the rarest of French perfumes by the quart—as if they were motor oil or milk—and filled the salons and boudoirs of her homes in New York City and Paris with priceless French antiques. Indeed, gazing at the sumptuous beauty of a room full of 18th-century French furniture she’d bought, Susan reportedly whispered to a friend, ”If it was good enough for Marie Antoinette, it’ll do for me.” Pauvre Susan. How could she have known that before long she would come to share not only Marie Antoinette’s furniture but, save for the guillotine, her fate. For almost a decade her husband, known throughout the world’s financial districts as the King of Wall Street, ruled as a ruthless and near-infallible wizard. But on Friday, Aug. 16, snared in a still unfolding scandal of deceit and dishonor involving his company’s illegal purchase of U.S. government securities, Gutfreund, 61, was forced to resign.

https://nypost.com/2021/01/16/inside-wild-auction-of-john-susan-gutfreunds-empire/

[Atlanta]

I also didn't care for Carrie C's dress... the upper part anyway. It didn't flatter her and looked awkward. But she was charming and funny.

[Shermie]

Agnes uses her money as needed, such as maintaining her home and having servants. But she doesn’t live a wealthy life like others at her level (parties, clothes, travel) because she’s kind of a party pooper. She reminds me of my dour old aunt who was always critical and bland. 

If Agnes is so negative because she was married to a jerk and her marriage was unhappy, you’d think she would be living the high life now that he’s gone. I know some older widows who became completely different people once their ball and chain was gone.

I gotta point out again that this show takes place in the same timeline as Little House on the Prairie. You’d think the Ingalls lived 100 years earlier, given their crapshack of a house and ragbag clothes. And it’s not because they’re rural, everyone else on LHOTP had a real house and decent furniture. It just boggles my mind that, theoretically, Pa and Ma Ingalls could be mingling with the Van Rijns and the Russells.

[Haleth]

47 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Pa and Ma Ingalls could be mingling with the Van Rijns and the Russells.

Agnes just fainted at the thought.

Is the mansion standing in for the Russells’ home in Newport The Breakers?  The Vanderbilt mansion?

Edited December 1, 2023 by Haleth

[cameron]

5 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Agnes just fainted at the thought.

Is the mansion standing in for the Russells’ home in Newport The Breakers?  The Vanderbilt mansion?

Definitely not the Breakers.  Think it's Marble House.

[Haleth]

20 minutes ago, cameron said:

Definitely not the Breakers.  Think it's Marble House.

Oh yeah, yeah. I think that’s right. Thanks!

Edited December 1, 2023 by Haleth

[Atlanta]

5 hours ago, Shermie said:

I gotta point out again that this show takes place in the same timeline as Little House on the Prairie. You’d think the Ingalls lived 100 years earlier, given their crapshack of a house and ragbag clothes. And it’s not because they’re rural, everyone else on LHOTP had a real house and decent furniture. It just boggles my mind that, theoretically, Pa and Ma Ingalls could be mingling with the Van Rijns and the Russells.

You just made me giggle a little too hard. My cats are wondering what's wrong. 

[BeatrixK]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:03 PM, Shermie said:

Because Bertha’s husband chose Bertha over her. 

 

 

Well...the man does have eyes....heh

 

/Turner just has a pinchy face that makes her instantly 'evil-looking' for me.

//Actress probably a lovely person IRL....but Turner's just so stupidly evil...fun to hate her.

[BeatrixK]

14 hours ago, Atlanta said:

You just made me giggle a little too hard. My cats are wondering what's wrong. 

Now....They did go to Chicago and Mankato a time or two.  And the Class Reunion was pretty upscale!  lol

/Shout out to former TWOPers from the 'Little House on the Prairie and the weird mime who raped Sylvia' board.

[Pestilentia]

Apparently I was the only one worried about that lynch mob- my heart sank when I saw them. All I could think was "Please don't go there, please don't go there."  I saw that ridiculous kiss coming from a mile away yet just knew that smoke was going to start creeping in and they'd become trapped in that handy hayloft.
Please stay in New York, Peggy.

Quote

Individually, they are pretty horrible people, but as a couple they are amazing; I root for them and throughly enjoy their scenes together. 

I adore them as a couple- we very rarely get to see true teamwork in a marriage and they have that one figured out perfectly. That's the way a marriage is supposed to work- supporting one another's goals. And I like Bertha, too- any woman in that day and age who could stand up for herself gets my vote. She has a clear destination in sight and she's going for it. How she managed to raise such a door mouse of a daughter escapes me though, as I find Gladys to be a whole lot of nothing. She has zero personality, extremely bland looks, seems interested in nothing, and is to me the anti-Bertha. What does she do all day? What does she want to do all day?

Quote

Agnes lost the constant presence of a sister with whom she had always shared everything.

Agnes lost her companion dog. The pet had been in training for many years and was very well behaved, it will be difficult to replace and that is quite annoying. Her outburst with the good Reverend was masterful acting- I could feel her mind awhirl with her own misery and fear. The words just BURST out of her mouth as if they had a life of their own- I was reminded of DeNiro's "What about me?" lament at the end of This Boy's Life. Utter confusion and pain and wrapped up so tightly within their own narcissistic hell that the thought of sitting in a room alone is terrifying.

I find it very interesting that in an episode where the Russell's dinner party with The Duke provided us with all of the opulence we watch these shows for yet Agnes entrance to that wedding was the  money shot. Baranski knocked it out of the park this episode and I am thrilled that we got that moment of her appearing like an avenging angel then walking into the church looking so magnificent. That was spectacular and that dress was to die for, especially set against that embroidered suspenders lederhosen looking abomination Ada was wearing. That headpiece was ugly- just bad.

Quote

I really don't understand Turner's dislike of Bertha, specifically.

Haven't you heard? Hell hath no fury.

[Camera One]

I just didn't feel anything at the wedding and was sort of rooting for Agnes to sweep in and reveal the reverend's deep dark secret, especially with the Church entry scene being reminiscent of Maleficent crashing the christening in Sleeping Beauty.

I thought the reverend was being a tad pushy and manipulative when Ada was having doubts.  I would have enjoyed a longer, more gradual engagement.  This rushed sequence makes me think this is more plot driven and leading to something else.

Turner paying a cook to put something into the soup was one thing, but that footman guy was simply going to spill the soup?  That was anti-climatic and idiotic.  He agreed to make himself look incompetent?  I can only imagine how great his "payment" from Turner was.  How did he get himself assigned to serve the Duke anyway?  The whole scheme was half-baked.  You'd think everything would have been tasted before it was sent up even if Watson? didn't see anything.

Larry acts like a teenager.  I did like the subplot about the engineer of the bridge, but it felt a little tacked on.  Hopefully, it will be an ongoing plotline. 

The Pittsburgh stuff seems too peripheral if it's meant to be a major plot point this season.  With George's right-hand man taking a more hardline approach, I'm guessing George will be the pragmatist and meet the strikers in the middle, so we as the audience can stay on his "side".

You'd think Bertha would have had Gladys interact with the Duke informally first instead of just surprise pairing them at dinner, if she truly wanted them to hit it off.

I'm surprised the show isn't making Marion falling for her cousin, and she even seems skeptical at the prospect.  I'm glad for that, at least.

I just assumed Oscar's date's business guy was shocked that he was told all the secrets of their company.  Regardless, I figure he will lose his money.  Imagine him beating the carpets with his cousin.

Peggy's story was interesting, up until they used the whole serious situation to jumpstart an adultery subplot.  

Edited December 3, 2023 by Camera One

[norcalgal]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Turner paying a cook to put something into the soup was one thing, but that footman guy was simply going to spill the soup?  That was anti-climatic and idiotic.  He agreed to make himself look incompetent?  I can only imagine how great his "payment" from Turner was.  How did he get himself assigned to serve the Duke anyway?  The whole scheme was half-baked. 

Turner must have paid the footman enough where he wouldn’t ever have to work again, right?  That’s the only way to explain why he would agree to do something SO VERY STUPID in such a public setting.  “Accident” or not, why would any one else employ a footman who could make such a huge mistake. The Russells certainly wouldn’t give him a good reference. And the guests who witnessed the “accident” would talk about the clumsy footman, so again, how would he work again if the plot had been carried out?!  

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

 How she managed to raise such a door mouse of a daughter escapes me though, as I find Gladys to be a whole lot of nothing. She has zero personality, extremely bland looks, seems interested in nothing, and is to me the anti-Bertha. What does she do all day? What does she want to do all day?

I think you answered your own question. Having a mother that directed and easily dominating created a passive daughter who gave up trying to fight long ago.

5 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

Haven't you heard? Hell hath no fury.

She hated Bertha before anybody scorned her, though.

[amarante]

9 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

 

I adore them as a couple- we very rarely get to see true teamwork in a marriage and they have that one figured out perfectly. That's the way a marriage is supposed to work- supporting one another's goals. And I like Bertha, too- any woman in that day and age who could stand up for herself gets my vote. She has a clear destination in sight and she's going for it. How she managed to raise such a door mouse of a daughter escapes me though, as I find Gladys to be a whole lot of nothing. She has zero personality, extremely bland looks, seems interested in nothing, and is to me the anti-Bertha. What does she do all day? What does she want to do all day?

 

Bertha is a permissive mother as compared to Alva Vanderbilt on whom the character was based.

Consuela (Gladys in real life) was locked in her room until she agreed to break off her secret engagement with Winthrop Rutherfurd - who was New York society but not the kind of grand marriage Alva wanted.

Consuela was forced into a loveless marriage with the Duke of Marlborough but eventually came into her own and they ultimately divorced after 25 years of marriage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consuelo_Vanderbilt

The Rutherfurds remained prominent in New York society and I actually worked with WR the III or IV when I spent a bit of time in the Trusts & Estates department of a New York white shoe law firm. It was there that I learned that the Social Register was not just an expression of speech but an actual book listing those people who were approved to be in the right circles. Some of these people had no need for a phone book (pre internet days of course) because anyone they would actually need to contact was in the Social Register. 

Winthrop Rutherford married Lucy Mercer who was one of FDR's mistresses.

Edited December 4, 2023 by amarante

[Scarlett45]

On 11/26/2023 at 9:13 PM, Straycat80 said:

I’m glad Agnes came around to Ada’s marriage even though she had to do that late attention getting entrance. 
I’m glad Enid’s plan to ruin Bertha’s didn’t happen thanks to the servants noticing all the sketchy goings on in the kitchen. I don’t think Gladys has any interest in the Duke. 
I knew there was going to be a scene in the South like they showed but it was still hard to watch. Oh, Peggy don’t get involved with a married man, but didn’t we see that coming? 

I’m so upset- I want more for our Peggy. Why couldn’t they have made him a single fictional character??!!

[JenE4]

Add my vote to the side that Maud is scamming Oscar. She feigns concerns that he’s a fortune hunter—and what better a mark than someone who will fall hook, line, and sinker to make a quick buck? Plus, the whole storyline that she’s rumored to be Jay Gould’s child, which she probably started. She was like the original Anna Delvey, fake socialite swooping into NYC to bilk the rich.

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Add my vote to the side that Maud is scamming Oscar. She feigns concerns that he’s a fortune hunter—and what better a mark than someone who will fall hook, line, and sinker to make a quick buck? Plus, the whole storyline that she’s rumored to be Jay Gould’s child, which she probably started. She was like the original Anna Delvey, fake socialite swooping into NYC to bilk the rich.

To me it sounds very much like a Ponzi scheme before it was named as such. Oscar thinks he’s much savvier than he is. However I admit he is growing on me, they’ve given him layers. I appreciate how he showed up for his Aunt Ada, and he’s been kind to Marion. Some of the “swarm” they gave him last season is gone. 

[Roseanna]

21 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

How she managed to raise such a door mouse of a daughter escapes me though, as I find Gladys to be a whole lot of nothing. She has zero personality, extremely bland looks, seems interested in nothing, and is to me the anti-Bertha. What does she do all day? What does she want to do all day?

 

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think you answered your own question. Having a mother that directed and easily dominating created a passive daughter who gave up trying to fight long ago.

I agree with Sistermagpie.

One doesn't even be a commanding and domineering mum to raise a passive daughter, all it needs is to do everything ready for her. 

Also Larry is weaker than his parents. He managed to get his dad's blessing to become an architect by just asking him, but it was rather like a hobby to him. He never gave a thought to his mistress reputation and accepted his mum's interference with his love life (she was right, but still).  

Both Russell children aren't adults. All they can is rebel for a moment like teens. 

[Scarlett45]

On 12/1/2023 at 10:49 AM, Shermie said:

If Agnes is so negative because she was married to a jerk and her marriage was unhappy, you’d think she would be living the high life now that he’s gone. I know some older widows who became completely different people once their ball and chain was gone

I think Agnes is tired, and she’s very practical. She doesn’t want to spend ALL the money, she wants Oscar to have as much as he can after she’s gone. Also she is emotionally broken after living with that man, the loss of many children- while we understand it doesn’t excuse her treating Ada so horribly. Agnes does have a kindness to her, but she’s not emotionally aware, probably the water works would start and she would crumble if she dealt with her feelings. 

[Pestilentia]

Quote

I think you answered your own question. Having a mother that directed and easily dominating created a passive daughter who gave up trying to fight long ago.

I know myself well enough to know that I too can be domineering and controlling  because that's how women accomplish things in a man's world. I made certain to give my own daughter the skills to do the same- she can speak up when she needs to and advocate for herself.

My question wasn't how such a situation can passively develop. It was more wondering why Bertha hadn't given her own daughter the same tools she herself found it necessary to utilize on a daily basis. She's smart enough to know how to walk the line between keeping Gladys somewhat malleable to her own wishes while providing that child the skills necessary to negotiate the very society she is trying to force her into. Bertha may be many things but short-sighted is not one.

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

My question wasn't how such a situation can passively develop. It was more wondering why Bertha hadn't given her own daughter the same tools she herself found it necessary to utilize on a daily basis. She's smart enough to know how to walk the line between keeping Gladys somewhat malleable to her own wishes while providing that child the skills necessary to negotiate the very society she is trying to force her into. Bertha may be many things but short-sighted is not one.

Gladys didn't need all of those tools, though. Bertha was a middle class woman with ambitions to break into a society that didn't want her. Gladys was raised in luxury. Bertha probably does think she's giving Gladys the tools she needs for this world--she's always explicitly telling her exactly why she's doing what she's doing and why it's important to do it. But Gladys doesn't have the same obsession with being at the top of society because she's never been outside it.

Edited December 4, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Gladys didn't need all of those tools, though. Bertha was a middle class woman with ambitions to break into a society that didn't want her. Gladys was raised in luxury. Bertha probably does think she's giving Gladys the tools she needs for this world--she's always explicitly telling her exactly why she's doing what she's doing and why it's important to do it. But Gladys doesn't have the same obsession with being at the top of society because she's never been outside it.

Perhaps not an obsession, but surviving skills in the society. She is like an innocent lamb which can easily been eaten by wolves like Turner.

Also, if Bertha succeeds to marry her to the duke, how can she endure a life among aristocratic Brits who look at her down despite her fortune?

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Gladys didn't need all of those tools, though. Bertha was a middle class woman with ambitions to break into a society that didn't want her. Gladys was raised in luxury. Bertha probably does think she's giving Gladys the tools she needs for this world--she's always explicitly telling her exactly why she's doing what she's doing and why it's important to do it. But Gladys doesn't have the same obsession with being at the top of society because she's never been outside it.

Also- although Gladys is Bertha’s daughter (biologically and by nurturing) she’s a different person with different drives and goals. She wants to get out from under Mother’s thumb (she’s said as much) but she knows her Mom loves her and is smart as hell- she knows harm isn’t going to come to her doing what Bertha says. 

Gladys probably doesn’t see the need to expend the emotional energy pushing back against Bertha. Bertha will always win- she’s the mom and has the years of maturity on her side. 
 

It’s similar to how I thought as a teen, I had a friend who was ALWAYS on punishment for not doing her chores and back talk/bad attitude. I asked her “don’t you realize you’ll have to do the chore anyway, so just do it the first time with a smile and you’ll get to keep your allowance, and your outings and your cell phone???” I didn’t get why she was willing to for go all her “perks”(like being able to go out and keep her phone privileges) just to run her mouth.