S01.E05: Harvest

[greekmom]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Why is it BS that at some point after the final battle in Endgame Fury could have thought "time to harvest some Avenger blood in case we need it for some backup plans, such as cloning them or duplicating their powers?"  It doesn't have to be within hours of that battle happening. Hell, it doesn't even have to be within days, or weeks. 

We are dealing in a universe where science is more advanced than our own. So there is not necessarily the need for DNA to be "fresh."

Fury kept the Harvest a secret from everyone except his handpicked team of Skrulls, it seemed. So the chances of any enemy using it seems slim...unless one of his team of Skrulls turns on him, which he didn't expect but probably he should have cursed that sudden but inevitable betrayal. 

Gravik's turning on Fury and the establishment of New Skrullos don't need to have been connected. New Skrullos could have existed in some form since the area was inhospitable to humans. 

And again, two years seems like plenty of time to infiltrate world governments and develop scientific advancements in a world of super-science. But some of the DNA they would have had access to well before the battle in Endgame. Extremis was around as of Iron Man III and Cull Obsidian was around as of Infinity War, as was Groot. So those samples could have been had in 2018. 

I could see Gravik being a believer in Fury but then seething that Fury did fuck-all to find the Skrulls a new planet to settle while being too scared of Fury to move against him. But what doesn't make sense to me is that when there are approximately 500,000 Skrulls on Earth after the Snap and when half the universe has been snapped away, why those Skrulls didn't think to themselves: Hey now is as good a time as any to find a planet for us and resettle, or to take over Earth or some other planet?

I really think a series covering life in the post-Snap, pre-Endgame time frame would be fascinating if done right.

The man just got back from being snapped back into existence. There was no time to get his Skrull team together and go collect blood that was dropped. NO TIME.  Plus Fury we have seen is a man who has a plan then has 10 other backup plans (see all the graves he has as an example). Therefore, I can't believe that he would have left it till this particular battle to collect Avenger's blood when he had over 10 years of doing so when he was hanging out with them. There was NO MENTION that he collected any samples during that time. Plus again, Fury was snapped during the battle of Infinity War. No chance to collect diddly squat.

Another thing, if you rewatch Endgame, Carol Danvers spilled NO BLOOD. She was bruised and a bit battered but no cuts.   

Finally Gravik could have been a believer but again no time in 2 years to do what he did.

If you want to believe what the AI writer is feeding you, then please go right ahead. I would prefer a bit more of an explanation.  For example, I would believe it all if Fury said he was collecting the samples over the years starting from the 90s when he met Carol - then yes I can swallow that.  If Gravik said that he was working on the machine and Skrullos during the 5 year snap in case there is a threat on the planet then he turned for reasons blah blah blah... then yes, I would believe that.  But I don't believe what the AI is writing. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

55 minutes ago, greekmom said:

The man just got back from being snapped back into existence. There was no time to get his Skrull team together and go collect blood that was dropped. NO TIME. 

How much time do you think it requires to get a Skrull team together, direct them to go to a location, and gather whatever blood samples that they find? A day? A week? A month?

Given that we have no idea when Fury actually directed the team to do this, what makes you think that there could not be sufficient time for him to have done so?

57 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Plus Fury we have seen is a man who has a plan then has 10 other backup plans (see all the graves he has as an example). Therefore, I can't believe that he would have left it till this particular battle to collect Avenger's blood when he had over 10 years of doing so when he was hanging out with them. There was NO MENTION that he collected any samples during that time. Plus again, Fury was snapped during the battle of Infinity War. No chance to collect diddly squat.

It's entirely possible that Fury had a standing plan to collect possible useful DNA from superbattles all along, that he had been doing it all along, and that it just was the case that until the Endgame battle, the relevant Avengers (i.e. those with inherent super-powers not just gadgets or technology) did not bleed enough that he could execute such a plan with their DNA.

It's entirely possible that Fury only concocted the scheme of collecting Avengers' DNA when the Snap and the Endgame battle showed how dire threats could get. 

The fact that there was no mention that he collected any samples previously obviously does not mean anything.

That Fury did not personally order samples collected from the Battle of Wakanda or the earlier attack on New York does not mean that a) he did not have a standing order to have such samples collected b) someone else in charge collected such things and he knew about/found out about it and then expanded the collection on being unsnapped. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Another thing, if you rewatch Endgame, Carol Danvers spilled NO BLOOD. She was bruised and a bit battered but no cuts.   

That we were not shown a scene with Carol Danvers bleeding does not mean that she didn't bleed. Someone bruised and battered could have plausibly bled enough that they could find DNA from that person. 

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Finally Gravik could have been a believer but again no time in 2 years to do what he did.

Again, how much time do you think it would take to a) set up New Skrullos b) target and replace unsuspecting humans and stick them in a memory machine?

Assuming that literally New Skrullos was created sometime post-Endgame, it does not seem to be that sophisticated an environment. The buildings seem to all be remnants before the area got irradiated. The tech that is there has some sophisticated stuff, but some stuff it would be child's play for the Skrulls to build in two years. Some (I imagine) is probably old tech for them. The only new tech would be the Super-Skrull maker machine. In any case, I think in a world where you can build suits of armor in a cave, it's certainly plausible that a refugee camp with high tech could be brought together in 2 years.

Replacing unsuspecting humans could probably be done in a matter of weeks if one set one's mind to it and had an army of shapeshifting volunteers. 

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

How much time do you think it requires to get a Skrull team together, direct them to go to a location, and gather whatever blood samples that they find? A day? A week? A month?

Given that we have no idea when Fury actually directed the team to do this, what makes you think that there could not be sufficient time for him to have done so?

It's entirely possible that Fury had a standing plan to collect possible useful DNA from superbattles all along, that he had been doing it all along, and that it just was the case that until the Endgame battle, the relevant Avengers (i.e. those with inherent super-powers not just gadgets or technology) did not bleed enough that he could execute such a plan with their DNA.

It's entirely possible that Fury only concocted the scheme of collecting Avengers' DNA when the Snap and the Endgame battle showed how dire threats could get. 

The fact that there was no mention that he collected any samples previously obviously does not mean anything.

That Fury did not personally order samples collected from the Battle of Wakanda or the earlier attack on New York does not mean that a) he did not have a standing order to have such samples collected b) someone else in charge collected such things and he knew about/found out about it and then expanded the collection on being unsnapped. 

 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That we were not shown a scene with Carol Danvers bleeding does not mean that she didn't bleed. Someone bruised and battered could have plausibly bled enough that they could find DNA from that person. 

Again, how much time do you think it would take to a) set up New Skrullos b) target and replace unsuspecting humans and stick them in a memory machine?

Assuming that literally New Skrullos was created sometime post-Endgame, it does not seem to be that sophisticated an environment. The buildings seem to all be remnants before the area got irradiated. The tech that is there has some sophisticated stuff, but some stuff it would be child's play for the Skrulls to build in two years. Some (I imagine) is probably old tech for them. The only new tech would be the Super-Skrull maker machine. In any case, I think in a world where you can build suits of armor in a cave, it's certainly plausible that a refugee camp with high tech could be brought together in 2 years.

Replacing unsuspecting humans could probably be done in a matter of weeks if one set one's mind to it and had an army of shapeshifting volunteers. 

1. Fury specifically said in this episode that "nearly every Avenger spilled blood in the battle of Earth. Even Carol Danvers. In the aftermath some were sent to collect that DNA."  In Endgame's deleted scene where they all take the knee, Carol Danvers is shown full face and most of her body. She is not hurt at all except for some dirt on her face and possible bruising.  The only ones that were bloodied that you saw were Dr. Strange and Thor (and Tony of course).

2. Time wise, even with new tech, due to the exposure of the elements, any DNA would be pretty much useless due to dirt, water, sun, etc.  It wouldn't have been viable DNA. So Fury could have sent in a team 2 or 3 days later - DNA no good.

3. By all your stretches of the imagination, it is also possible that Tony isn't dead he's just off somewhere living with Elvis.  Gamora and Black Widow are with him as the snap brought them back as well.  

My point being is that due to the AI writing, the writing is completely sloppy.  A real writer would have given us some more context and more realistic explanations. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by greekmom

[paigow]

41 minutes ago, greekmom said:

My point being is that due to the AI writing, the writing is completely sloppy. 

Despite your best efforts, your emotions have betrayed you! Your real identity is:

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 minutes ago, greekmom said:

 

1. Fury specifically said in this episode that "nearly every Avenger spilled blood in the battle of Earth. Even Carol Danvers. In the aftermath some were sent to collect that DNA."  In Endgame's deleted scene where they all take the knee, Carol Danvers is shown full face and most of her body. She is not hurt at all except for some dirt on her face and possible bruising.  The only ones that were bloodied that you saw were Dr. Strange and Thor (and Tony of course).

2. Time wise, even with new tech, due to the exposure of the elements, any DNA would be pretty much useless due to dirt, water, sun, etc.  It wouldn't have been viable DNA. So Fury could have sent in a team 2 or 3 days later - DNA no good.

3. By all your stretches of the imagination, it is also possible that Tony isn't dead he's just off somewhere living with Elvis.  Gamora and Black Widow are with him as the snap brought them back as well.  

My point being is that due to the AI writing, the writing is completely sloppy.  A real writer would have given us some more context and more realistic explanations. 

The fact that Endgame and its deleted scenes do not explicitly show Carol Danvers bleeding does not mean that Carol Danvers never in fact bled. She could have bled after the last time she was depicted in the battle. She could have bled at some point off-screen then just have been shown bruised but not actively bleeding.

In the real world, sure, DNA might be too degraded after a couple days to use. But in a universe where Pym Particles, super advance AI and all sorts of science exists that would seem like magic to ours, the notion that DNA would not be "viable" after a couple of days doesn't make sense to me.

And even taking your time frame as a given that in the MCU DNA would be too degraded after 2 days to be useful, why is it that you think that Fury was incapable of ordering a team in the same day of the battle to collect DNA? The only thing that he would need to do after realizing he's back and getting a briefing about what happened during the Endgame battle is call up his Skrull network and arrange transport to the site of the battle. The logistics on that can't take more than a day, it seems to me.

Comic book movies are indeed pretty famous for bringing people back from the apparent dead. Between variants and time travel and duplicants and MacGuffins like the Infinity Stones, it's certainly possible. So yes, I'm sure that if the writers wanted to they could find some way to resurrect whoever they want. 

But that's different from your claims that it's impossible that Fury could have done what it's said in this series he did. 

[paigow]

On 7/19/2023 at 6:24 AM, tired and hungry said:

I didn't get the part at the end when Sonya asks "Why Finland?" Fury says something about skrulls liking the cold.

Missed opportunity for Sonya to have a Zoolander moment...

 

[Abra]

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

My point being is that due to the AI writing, the writing is completely sloppy.  A real writer would have given us some more context and more realistic explanations. 

What AI writing? The only thing they used AI for was the opening credits.

[Affogato]

14 hours ago, Abra said:

What AI writing? The only thing they used AI for was the opening credits.

I think it was an editorial comment.

No one has asked me, but Disney put a living voice actor who had originated the role in a star wars tv show without actually using the actor, and used AI in the credits for this show. I thin they are likely to be the first major streamer to come out with an entirely AI written show, and I bet they are already working on it.

[paigow]

13 minutes ago, Affogato said:

an entirely AI written show, and I bet they are already working on it.

I have heard that AI scripts are near the 50th percentile in quality... which means it is already better than half of the human writers... 

[Affogato]

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The fact that Endgame and its deleted scenes do not explicitly show Carol Danvers bleeding does not mean that Carol Danvers never in fact bled. She could have bled after the last time she was depicted in the battle. She could have bled at some point off-screen then just have been shown bruised but not actively bleeding.

In the real world, sure, DNA might be too degraded after a couple days to use. But in a universe where Pym Particles, super advance AI and all sorts of science exists that would seem like magic to ours, the notion that DNA would not be "viable" after a couple of days doesn't make sense to me.

And even taking your time frame as a given that in the MCU DNA would be too degraded after 2 days to be useful, why is it that you think that Fury was incapable of ordering a team in the same day of the battle to collect DNA? The only thing that he would need to do after realizing he's back and getting a briefing about what happened during the Endgame battle is call up his Skrull network and arrange transport to the site of the battle. The logistics on that can't take more than a day, it seems to me.

Comic book movies are indeed pretty famous for bringing people back from the apparent dead. Between variants and time travel and duplicants and MacGuffins like the Infinity Stones, it's certainly possible. So yes, I'm sure that if the writers wanted to they could find some way to resurrect whoever they want. 

But that's different from your claims that it's impossible that Fury could have done what it's said in this series he did. 

I wonder if Gravik managed to gather a large faction of Skrulls to his cause and infiltrate many strongholds of government after the snap, when 50 percent of skrulls wold be dusted, as well as humans, and there would have been a lot of chaos everywhere. When the snap reversed itself Fury lost the opportuntiy not only to reconcile with his wife, but with the skrulls. Apparently Maria Hill and Talos (was he dusted?) tried to make up the difference, but it wasn't enough, while Fury threw himself into developing SABRE as a way for earth to protect itself against future off world attacks. Now Fury is back and he needs to clean up the consequences of his neglect.

Yeah, probably this is what they are getting at, but there is so much nonsense scattered around.

I haven't read the Harvest related comics, but DNA is likely going to degrade at the same time, whether people have found evidence that PYM particles exist or not, and it still puzzles me that Tony and Bruce wouldn't have gathered and maintained and studied the avengers physically and probably have blood and tissue samples.  But okay, it is a comic thing and it really doesn't have to make sense.

But a show that puts itself forward as a chance for Samuel Jackson, a reputable actor playing a character of some importance in the mcu, to show his acting ability and develop Fury as a person...should really put more effort towards that end.

[norcalgal]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:03 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

That we were not shown a scene with Carol Danvers bleeding does not mean that she didn't bleed. Someone bruised and battered could have plausibly bled enough that they could find DNA from that person. 

Again, how much time do you think it would take to a) set up New Skrullos b) target and replace unsuspecting humans and stick them in a memory machine?

Assuming that literally New Skrullos was created sometime post-Endgame, it does not seem to be that sophisticated an environment. The buildings seem to all be remnants before the area got irradiated. The tech that is there has some sophisticated stuff, but some stuff it would be child's play for the Skrulls to build in two years. Some (I imagine) is probably old tech for them. The only new tech would be the Super-Skrull maker machine. In any case, I think in a world where you can build suits of armor in a cave, it's certainly plausible that a refugee camp with high tech could be brought together in 2 years.

Replacing unsuspecting humans could probably be done in a matter of weeks if one set one's mind to it and had an army of shapeshifting volunteers. 

 

On 7/24/2023 at 1:07 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

The fact that Endgame and its deleted scenes do not explicitly show Carol Danvers bleeding does not mean that Carol Danvers never in fact bled. She could have bled after the last time she was depicted in the battle. She could have bled at some point off-screen then just have been shown bruised but not actively bleeding.

In the real world, sure, DNA might be too degraded after a couple days to use. But in a universe where Pym Particles, super advance AI and all sorts of science exists that would seem like magic to ours, the notion that DNA would not be "viable" after a couple of days doesn't make sense to me.

And even taking your time frame as a given that in the MCU DNA would be too degraded after 2 days to be useful, why is it that you think that Fury was incapable of ordering a team in the same day of the battle to collect DNA? The only thing that he would need to do after realizing he's back and getting a briefing about what happened during the Endgame battle is call up his Skrull network and arrange transport to the site of the battle. The logistics on that can't take more than a day, it seems to me.

Comic book movies are indeed pretty famous for bringing people back from the apparent dead. Between variants and time travel and duplicants and MacGuffins like the Infinity Stones, it's certainly possible. So yes, I'm sure that if the writers wanted to they could find some way to resurrect whoever they want. 

But that's different from your claims that it's impossible that Fury could have done what it's said in this series he did. 

This is just my opinion, but if fans have to fanwank so much (This or That could have happened…) then it’s an Epic Fail. Sure, fans should use our imagination to an extent, but we shouldn’t have to bend over backwards to fill in the gaps to make the implausible seem plausible. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:33 AM, paigow said:

I have heard that AI scripts are near the 50th percentile in quality... which means it is already better than half of the human writers... 

Which would likely mean that an AI script would potentially be way better than this series was.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, norcalgal said:

 

This is just my opinion, but if fans have to fanwank so much (This or That could have happened…) then it’s an Epic Fail. Sure, fans should use our imagination to an extent, but we shouldn’t have to bend over backwards to fill in the gaps to make the implausible seem plausible. 

I agree with the general sentiment that the show's writing was weak in numerous spots and that fans shouldn't have to work so hard to patch it (or fiction in general) up.

But I don't think that the problem with this particular issue is really a plot hole.

Fury tells us that every Avenger bled, even Carol Danvers. There is nothing implausible about that, IMO. The final battle in Endgame was a slugfest and it seems highly likely there was blood (among other genetic material) all over the battlefield.

There is nothing previously established to contradict that all Avengers, including Carol Danvers, bled. Just because we weren't shown a bloody Carol Danvers during Endgame or deleted scenes doesn't mean that it is impossible that she bled before or after when we saw her, or that the rest of the Avengers bled. We clearly were not shown every second of what happened to every character during that final battle. We don't need to see a flashback shot of bloody Carol Danvers to grok that she did according to the story bleed.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I agree with the general sentiment that the show's writing was weak in numerous spots and that fans shouldn't have to work so hard to patch it (or fiction in general) up.

But I don't think that the problem with this particular issue is really a plot hole.

Fury tells us that every Avenger bled, even Carol Danvers. There is nothing implausible about that, IMO. The final battle in Endgame was a slugfest and it seems highly likely there was blood (among other genetic material) all over the battlefield.

There is nothing previously established to contradict that all Avengers, including Carol Danvers, bled. Just because we weren't shown a bloody Carol Danvers during Endgame or deleted scenes doesn't mean that it is impossible that she bled before or after when we saw her, or that the rest of the Avengers bled. We clearly were not shown every second of what happened to every character during that final battle. We don't need to see a flashback shot of bloody Carol Danvers to grok that she did according to the story bleed.

I would assume that she didn't bleed by way of some process of invulnerability. Some of the others as well. I'm not sure they have gone into it in detail anywhere but near invulnerable but easily cut and scraped seems, I don't know, odd. 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But I don't think that the problem with this particular issue is really a plot hole.

Yea compared to some of the other issues with this series that was a relatively small one. Although a simpler line about how Fury and his Skrull agents collected every super being DNA sample they could over the past 30 years would have made more sense. That way you can easily explain that he might have just gotten her DNA from a glass she was drinking out of at Stark's funeral (or back in the 90's).

The dumber thing is that he collected those DNA samples and then decided to mix them up in a single vial. 

[Megras]

Also with film ratings any blood may not actually be shown to keep the rating down.