Shiny Happy People: Duggar Family Secrets - General Discussion

[Salacious Kitty]

I find it quite disingenuous that Holt is speaking out against Gothard, but seems to have taken the he man headship role Gothard espoused to heart. 

Also seen in the trailer, Michael Pearl demonstrating how to beat a baby. 

Disgusting pigs. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[lascuba]

The real purpose of Jinger's book was to promote her new cult. She's not going to participate in a documentary that won't serve that purpose.

2 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Yeah I don't think a woman who has to say "I had to pray to have a heart for children" really loves her kids.   Someone who was only too happy to turn over the raising of her kids to her daughters does not love her kids.

Also they BLANKETED TRAINED and promoted it as a good thing to do.  That is deliberately cruel.

Sorry not giving either JB or M any passes.   They were adults AND PARENTS when they decided to follow Gothard.   They had choices.   They chose poorly.   

Oh GOD, please don't think I'm giving those two a pass. Considering my contempt for religion in general, that's hardly the case. But within the context of their world, and considering that even the two daughters who've said anything against their beliefs still paint their parents in the most sympathetic light possible for no obvious practical reason, I think they genuinely believed they did what was best for their kids (though the buddy system is absolutely inexcusable). Other fundie kids with much less opportunity manage to break away and immediately lambast their parents (the Jeub kids come immediately to mind). I'm guessing that only in comparison to other fundies, they've been good enough and kind enough to their kids that they don't want to go no contact. The fact that Jinger and Jill still see their families as evidenced by recent pictures means that JB and Michelle aren't so controlling that they'd cut contact with their children for speaking out. That's a lot more than most cult members.

 

[Albanyguy]

2 hours ago, lascuba said:

Derick falling into the cult makes him even worse than JB. JB was an uneducated teen when he fell in. Derick went to college after being raised by a working mother, saw how objectively weird that Duggars are, and thought, "Yep, I want in." I know the experts say anyone can fall for a cult, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to judge those who do.

One of the biggest selling points of the Gothard cult was telling ordinary, insignificant men that IBLP would elevate them to near God-like status. No matter how unsuccessful they had been in the real world, they would rule as kings at home. Their wives would give them endless fawning attention and deference and their kids would instatntly obey their slightest command. For insecure dweebs like JB and Derick (or for men with a hidden mean streak like Jim Holt), this was irrestible stuff.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Albanyguy

[madpsych78]

3 hours ago, lascuba said:

I agree that, all things considered, JB/M genuinely love their kids think they did the best for them. And there have have a few former fundies over the years who've claimed that the Duggars were considered too liberal in their parenting in fundie circles. They are awful parents, but I don't think they were deliberately cruel.

But both JB and Holt ran for office on an essentially IBLP platform. That, imo, erases whatever sympathy they might deserve as "brainwashing" victims. Being in a position of social/political power should automatically mean that the victim label comes with major caveats.

Derick falling into the cult makes him even worse than JB. JB was an uneducated teen when he fell in. Derick went to college after being raised by a working mother, saw how objectively weird that Duggars are, and thought, "Yep, I want in." I know the experts say anyone can fall for a cult, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to judge those who do.

Except Derick didn't stay in the cult, so I don't see him as worse than JB in that respect. 

[lascuba]

 

 

6 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Except Derick didn't stay in the cult, so I don't see him as worse than JB in that respect. 

He left because of money issues with JB. The little he's said criticizing the belief system, it was only after the fight with JB and TLC. Seems pretty mercenary to me, and that along with joining the cult in the first place when he was at an age and lifestyle to have known better, make him worse in my eyes. This isn't a defense of JB, mind you. It's more like I'm ranking different species of mosquitos. Some give you West Nile virus, others give you Zika. In the end, they all suck.

[Future Cat Lady]

I don't think Derick was ever in IBLP. He may have been interested in some apects of the Duggar lifestyle for a while, but I don't think he was ever into Gothard. When they went on their "mission" in LA (can't rememeber where), I don't think it was with a church affiliated with IBLP.

[crazy8s]

9 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I don't think Derick was ever in IBLP. He may have been interested in some apects of the Duggar lifestyle for a while, but I don't think he was ever into Gothard. When they went on their "mission" in LA (can't rememeber where), I don't think it was with a church affiliated with IBLP.

They were with S.O.S. Ministries - founded by Mike Schadt. The guy who married Ben and Jessa.

(he has his own creepy history)

IBLP sells one of his DVDs.

https://store.iblp.org/almost-converted.html

 

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, lascuba said:

The real purpose of Jinger's book was to promote her new cult. She's not going to participate in a documentary that won't serve that purpose.

Exactly!

[awaken]

18 hours ago, ChristmasCandy said:

What I really want to hear is what Famy is going to say.

Finally! She’ll spill the tea that she has been teasing us with for years!  😂 Ha. I doubt she has anything substantial or new to reveal. 

16 hours ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

Sometimes, it’s best to just let some relationships end. Sharing DNA with someone doesn’t always mean reconciliation should happen.  I think if I were Jill, I’d go no contact with both my parents and my eldest brother because of all the years of emotional, spiritual, physical abuse they inflicted.  I know it gets complicated but I think for Jill’s well being, living her life and speaking her truth is more valuable than continuing in a relationship with toxic parents.  

Agreed. I’m in the same situation with my own family. Sometimes it’s just not going to work and you have to go your own way.  

[Salacious Kitty]

11 minutes ago, awaken said:

Finally! She’ll spill the tea that she has been teasing us with for years!  😂 Ha. I doubt she has anything substantial or new to reveal.  

Famy will just add that she was never allowed to take her cousins away from the TTH to go shopping or get an ice cream cone, and she found that strange. 

[CalicoKitty]

I'm trying to understand McArthur's appeal.  I know two American Anglican churches that used/use McArthur's material for adult Bible study classes.  I don't get it.  Anglicans are not Calvinistic at all, but the people in charge don't seem to know his background.  Count me as not interested in attending.

[xwordfanatik]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

I think another factor with Jinger is her "book" seems to have been highly managed by the powers that be at John MacArthur's Church of the Hateful Old Fucks. I doubt they're very interested in having her participate in a documentary outside the purview of their control. 

A rousing hand of applause for your description of JM's church!  "Hateful Old Fucks" made me laugh too hard, and I couldn't have done better.  😁

[Dimi1]

6 hours ago, lascuba said:

I agree that, all things considered, JB/M genuinely love their kids think they did the best for them. And there have have a few former fundies over the years who've claimed that the Duggars were considered too liberal in their parenting in fundie circles. They are awful parents, but I don't think they were deliberately cruel.

But both JB and Holt ran for office on an essentially IBLP platform. That, imo, erases whatever sympathy they might deserve as "brainwashing" victims. Being in a position of social/political power should automatically mean that the victim label comes with major caveats.

Derick falling into the cult makes him even worse than JB. JB was an uneducated teen when he fell in. Derick went to college after being raised by a working mother, saw how objectively weird that Duggars are, and thought, "Yep, I want in." I know the experts say anyone can fall for a cult, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to judge those who do.

I don't know ...Derick lost his father , so I think he was looking for a father figure in JB

[Absolom]

Derick only dipped in one toe in the IBLP waters.  When they came back from their honeymoon, they were attending the SBC church.  

[quarks]

5 hours ago, lascuba said:

The real purpose of Jinger's book was to promote her new cult. She's not going to participate in a documentary that won't serve that purpose.

 

I mean, sure, but on the other side I'm not entirely sure that the producers/directors wanted her and Jeremy. A docuseries like this can't have too many characters, and this series already has Gothard, Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh. You genuinely can't add too many more people to this, and you already need to have the subject matter experts, the long term insiders (and yes, I'd pick Amy over Jeremy here; she's slightly more charismatic but more importantly, has spent more time with the Duggars than Jeremy has), at least some of the other non-Duggar victims, and so on. 

That just doesn't leave time to feature that many adult Duggars/Duggar adjacents.

Edited May 20, 2023 by quarks

[Gemma Violet]

Someone said Jill would never publicly diss JB.  In the court records which are public records, she called JB controlling, reactionary, verbally abusive, and that they have a toxic relationship.  That said, I wouldn't be surprised if most of her comments in the special are about the IBLP and not so much the family.

[Salacious Kitty]

1 hour ago, Gemma Violet said:

Someone said Jill would never publicly diss JB.  In the court records which are public records, she called JB controlling, reactionary, verbally abusive, and that they have a toxic relationship.  That said, I wouldn't be surprised if most of her comments in the special are about the IBLP and not so much the family.

Jill appears to get top billing in this. I bet she repeated some of what she has previously said about her father. There are others who can speak to growing up in the IBLP. Jill's role here is more specific.

[floridamom]

I wonder if this docuseries will include the Bates?

[GeeGolly]

10 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Someone said Jill would never publicly diss JB.  In the court records which are public records, she called JB controlling, reactionary, verbally abusive, and that they have a toxic relationship.  That said, I wouldn't be surprised if most of her comments in the special are about the IBLP and not so much the family.

I never heard about this, but I'm going to guess Jill never thought those comments would go beyond the courtroom/law office. Like you, I'd be surprised if she repeated them in the docuseries.

Edited May 20, 2023 by GeeGolly

[SMama]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I never heard about this, but I'm going to guess Jill never thought those comments would go beyond the courtroom. Like you, I'd be surprised if she repeated them in the docuseries.

Jill’s comments must be from the deposition since she didn‘t testify at the trial. 

[GeeGolly]

Just now, SMama said:

Jill’s comments must be from the deposition since she didn‘t testify at the trial. 

Right that's what I was referring to. Isn't one usually deposed in a courtroom?

[SMama]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Right that's what I was referring to. Isn't one usually deposed in a courtroom?

Lawyer’s offices are more common. 

[GeeGolly]

15 minutes ago, SMama said:

Lawyer’s offices are more common. 

Thanks! I fixed it.

[Gemma Violet]

Yes, it was the deposition, not the court records.  Sorry about that.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I never heard about this, but I'm going to guess Jill never thought those comments would go beyond the courtroom/law office. Like you, I'd be surprised if she repeated them in the docuseries.

 

This may vary from state to state, but when I've been deposed in civil cases, I've been told that my deposition may or will become part of the public record. Not to mention that she was testifying in a case specifically about supposedly sealed records getting released to the public.

And she's married to an attorney.

So yeah, I think she knew full well that her comments could go beyond the deposition room. 

That doesn't, of course, mean that she'll say any of that on the docuseries. I think there's a big gap between, "tell the whole truth, partly to help your case, mostly to avoid facing potential perjury charges," and "tell the truth for a docuseries that you aren't getting paid to do that will be streaming on the world's second most popular streaming service."  

[GeeGolly]

31 minutes ago, quarks said:

This may vary from state to state, but when I've been deposed in civil cases, I've been told that my deposition may or will become part of the public record. Not to mention that she was testifying in a case specifically about supposedly sealed records getting released to the public.

And she's married to an attorney.

So yeah, I think she knew full well that her comments could go beyond the deposition room. 

That doesn't, of course, mean that she'll say any of that on the docuseries. I think there's a big gap between, "tell the whole truth, partly to help your case, mostly to avoid facing potential perjury charges," and "tell the truth for a docuseries that you aren't getting paid to do that will be streaming on the world's second most popular streaming service."  

I had similar thoughts to yours, but then I thought, well this is Jill Duggar we're talking about.

I'm not sure Derick was an attorney at the time and even if he was, I'm not sure he would have advised Jill to be careful what she says.

 

[Meow Mix]

I think the whole point of using Jill in the docuseries is that she is pretty high profile in the Duggar family.  Unlike Jinger, she and Derick clearly had a falling out with at least some family members, so she may come across as more credible and people may tune in just to see if she spills anything interesting.  As far as Famy is concerned, she has nothing of substance to add.  She has claimed multiple times that neither she nor her mother knew anything about what Josh did or the inner workings of the family, so all she can really do is repeat the stuff she has already said about how strange it was that she wasn't allowed to see her cousins anywhere but their own house with the parents watching.

What I am hoping is that the Duggars are just the access point here that the creators are using to actually do a real expose on IBLP.  Their political reach was truly scary as they got into the juvenile courts in some places and kids were sent to their training centers.  As some of those kids came from very poor families, it was very difficult for their families to get them out again.  I really hope they get into what went on in the training centers as I don't think a lot of people outside of us snarkers have heard all that.  Recovering Grace is an eye-opening read regarding what Gothard and his cronies were truly up to.  I wonder if they will go back to his 1980 scandal involving both him and his predator brother.

[quarks]

48 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I had similar thoughts to yours, but then I thought, well this is Jill Duggar we're talking about.

I'm not sure Derick was an attorney at the time and even if he was, I'm not sure he would have advised Jill to be careful what she says.

 

 

Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy filed their lawsuit against Arkansas law enforcement in 2017. The defense deposed the Duggars in 2021. The case  which, again, was specifically about In Touch making legal documents about the Duggars very, very public - was dismissed in 2022.  

Derick graduated from law school in 2021 and passed the bar exam in 2022.  

2021 was also the year that Jill agreed to testify, in public, at Josh's hearing.

To be fair, it doesn't seem that she was all that thoughtful in her deposition - indeed, the judge seems to have used some of her statements to justify dismissing the case - but yeah, I think it's safe to assume she knew her comments could go public. 

9 minutes ago, Meow Mix said:

I think the whole point of using Jill in the docuseries is that she is pretty high profile in the Duggar family.  Unlike Jinger, she and Derick clearly had a falling out with at least some family members, so she may come across as more credible and people may tune in just to see if she spills anything interesting. 

 

Maybe? But even before this recent New York Times bestseller status, Jinger was at least arguably slightly more high profile than Jill - Jinger had co-authored a couple of books, been on some not exactly interesting podcasts, and shown up at a couple of minor Hollywood events. She and Jeremy also have more social media followers than Jill and Derick. 

So I don't think it was so much anyone's profile - I mean, this docuseries is also featuring the Holts, who don't even qualify as F level celebrities - as that Jill previously spoke on national television about the molestations, and unlike Jessa, Jinger, or Joy, agreed to testify against Josh. The directors knew they could get a story out of her. And as I noted before, these docuseries can only feature a limited number of characters - so you want to focus on the ones where you can guarantee a story.

Beyond that, Amazon usually wants its original material to reach at least 10% of Amazon Prime's 172 million subscriber base. That is, 17 million people, most of whom have only heard the name Josh Duggar, if that, not the 1 million or so Duggar fans/snarkers who can tell the difference between Jill and Jinger, and know that Jill has had a public falling out with JB and Jinger has not. 

That said, I'm still not ruling out some sort of appearance by either Jinger or Jeremy or both. Jinger is in the trailer - as archival footage, but she's in the trailer. They could have used a shot of Jill there. They didn't. 

[Salacious Kitty]

Production interviewed Jen from Fundie Fridays, and she made the cut! Watch out for her clip on Reddit. She just aired it live on her YT. 

She promises that they are going after the IBLP, hard. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Salacious Kitty
fro? Really?

[Absolom]

 

[GeeGolly]

So they're are saying Jen was interviewed in December of 2021. Bubs was cancelled one month later. It all makes sense now.

[awaken]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

So they're are saying Jen was interviewed in December of 2021. Bubs was cancelled one month later. It all makes sense now.

Ooooh, I hope we find out more details!

[Heathen]

10 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

 Recovering Grace is an eye-opening read regarding what Gothard and his cronies were truly up to.  I wonder if they will go back to his 1980 scandal involving both him and his predator brother.

What happened then? 

[lascuba]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

So they're are saying Jen was interviewed in December of 2021. Bubs was cancelled one month later. It all makes sense now.

I'm totally out of the loop....I'm vaguely aware of Fundy Fridays but how does that relate to the Bates?

I'd imagine that the producers would have wanted Jinger's participation...the more famous former cult members involved, the better. If she's really not involved, the only reason I could think of is MacArthur. Jermey wouldn't give up that opportunity without a hell of an incentive.

Amy's involvement annoys me more than the Holts'. Her mother makes sense...she has the perspective of someone seeing her loved one get pulled into that cult. And on that note, I would kill to see at least one of Michelle's siblings in the docuseries. 

ETA: Also praying to the deities that piss off IBLPers the most that footage of Erin Bates' wedding with the "Happy Birthday Mr. Gothard"  cake  makes an appearance. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by lascuba

[Salacious Kitty]

Fundie Fridays doesn't have anything to do with the Bateses other than getting reported to the YT police by our buddy Lawson. 🙄

The connection here is that the documentary was conducting interviews, then BUB gets mysteriously canceled. There might be causation. 

[MaryAnneSpier]

I came here after watching Jen's video and am more optimistic about the documentary. I'd said before on here I was afraid it would be very surface-level, tabloid-level stuff v that wouldn't reveal anything new to us. But Jen said in her youtube video that it's well done and even we long-time snarkers will learn something new. She didn't drop specific names, but apparently, there's some big-deal people involved. Now I know how comic book movie fans felt with the Avengers movies: this crossover and merging of big characters is going to be epic!

[GeeGolly]

27 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

I came here after watching Jen's video and am more optimistic about the documentary. I'd said before on here I was afraid it would be very surface-level, tabloid-level stuff v that wouldn't reveal anything new to us. But Jen said in her youtube video that it's well done and even we long-time snarkers will learn something new. She didn't drop specific names, but apparently, there's some big-deal people involved. Now I know how comic book movie fans felt with the Avengers movies: this crossover and merging of big characters is going to be epic!

Yea, she piqued my interest when she said we're going to be surprised about who contributed to this. I keep racking my brain trying to guess. She seemed to be inferring some big time experts and maybe some surprising Fundies.

That was my first time watching Jen, so I don't know her, but my hope is they don't have 'experts' like the egotistical bully Dr Phil and his ilk. I mean they're having Amy, Deanna and a vlogger, so I'm trying to keep my hopes realistic.

I would love to be surprised by a Bates, another Duggar, or someone like the Coca-Cola "addict".

I also wonder if they'll go beyond patriarchy and delve into other isms.

Yep, I'm eager to see it. 😁

OMG, just had another thought - what if someone from here contributed?!?

[beckie]

Jen isn't a vlogger. Her whole channel is basically about the craziness of the fundies. She has videos about the Bates and the Rods as well as many others. I think she's probably a better choice to interview than some others.

[GeeGolly]

12 minutes ago, beckie said:

Jen isn't a vlogger. Her whole channel is basically about the craziness of the fundies. She has videos about the Bates and the Rods as well as many others. I think she's probably a better choice to interview than some others.

I guess maybe I don't know what a vlogger is. My point is Jen, from what little I know, is a self-learned, self-imposed expert on Fundies. Depending on how they feature her, it might feel less legitimate to me.

[Absolom]

Jen presents on youtube as bad or worse than Joy from Crystal Ball so yes I hope for people with a much greater professional appearance overall in the world.  

[zoomama]

7 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

 

OMG, just had another thought - what if someone from here contributed?!?

ok, thats a BIG thought!   who is holding out on us here????  spill it, friend!

[Meow Mix]

19 hours ago, Heathen said:

What happened then? 

Back in the 70s IBLP was called the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts.  Gothard was up to his same tricks and it was an open secret that he had "girlfriends" some of whom were underage, others who were barely of age.  At that time, his brother Steve was in charge of the Northwoods property they had up in Michigan where Journey to the Heart eventually took place.  Apparently, if one of Gothard's girlfriends displeased him or he got bored with her, she was sent to Steve who was even worse than Bill.  I think there were seven women who accused him of forcing them into sexual relationships with him.  He was eventually caught in a compromising position with one of them and the board panicked.  They first tried to get any of the girls' involved fathers to agree to let one of his victims marry Steve, but got no takers.  Finally they banished him and Bill either got axed or resigned.  However, Bill had friends on the board so his absence didn't last long.  He was brought back and the board members who opposed him were dismissed.  Since this was in the days before the internet, the whole thing was buried and he rebranded as the IBLP and came back around the 1984 or so.  Those who got sucked in after that had no clue of what had happened before.  I'm not sure when the whole thing came to light, but Recovering Grace had quite a lot of info on it including several entries from a man whose wife was one of Bill and Steve's victims.  

[MaryAnneSpier]

Thank you MeowMix. I didn't know about any of that. It really just reinforces that Gothardism has always been a dangerous cult, and I hope they did include it in the documentary. 

[Celia Rubenstein]

All I can say is I hope this documentary is half as well-informed as some of the posters here are!   You all know where the bodies are buried and then some.

I am prepared to be disappointed, to be quite honest.  I don't expect to learn anything I have not already read here.

[quarks]

I don't know how accurate this is, but IMDB has the cast list up:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt27715627/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_cl_sm

Some of the people listed are presumably archival footage only.

[GeeGolly]

13 hours ago, Absolom said:

Jen presents on youtube as bad or worse than Joy from Crystal Ball so yes I hope for people with a much greater professional appearance overall in the world.  

2 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

All I can say is I hope this documentary is half as well-informed as some of the posters here are!   You all know where the bodies are buried and then some.

I am prepared to be disappointed, to be quite honest.  I don't expect to learn anything I have not already read here.

I just did a quick scroll through this YTer Jen's IG. My expectations have been lowered.

 

[pally]

Previously, Prime had a documentary on Warren Jeffs and the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints.  It was very well done and they did not pull punches on that particular cult.  There are a lot of similarities between Gothard and Jeffs.

[jacourt]

Could they get a worse picture of Derrick. He looks like fun and dumber. 

[Gemma Violet]

From People:

https://people.com/tv/duggar-family-docuseries-producers-reveal-most-shocking-thing-they-discovered-what-didnt-make-the-cut-exclusive/

[woodscommaelle]

15 minutes ago, jacourt said:

Could they get a worse picture of Derrick. He looks like fun and dumber. 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by woodscommaelle