S08.E12: As Time Goes By

[Demented Daisy]

Sam and Dean's grandfather, Henry Winchester, arrives by time travel, claiming that he has something to protect from an Abaddon that is hot on his trail.

 

 

By this point in the season, I was so tired.  I was tired of being outraged by the screw ups of TPTB that I couldn't even get excited about an episode any more.  So I should have really, really enjoyed this episode, but I couldn't work up the energy.  And that's not good.

 

Mileage varies, of course.

[DittyDotDot]

I should just co-sign DD's thoughts and leave it at that, but what would be the fun in that.  I don't buy into the whole idea that John was a sad and lonely kid and I've never been too fond of the snooty Men Of Letters concept, so other than Abaddon (I do love me some Alaina Huffman) the rest of the episode is kind of a mess for me. I think that I may have been more on board with it if I wasn't already so frustrated with the show by that time. However, that devil's-trap bullet thing was pretty cool and it's rather surprising that it took them eight years to come up with that.

[Demented Daisy]

Very good point about the bullet, Ditty.  But then, it also took them how many years to figure out how to burn off their anti-possession tattoos?

[AwesomO4000]

I might have really liked this episode if I didn't get so frustrated by Sam the huge damsel in distress. And then Sam stands by quietly and placidly while Dean is going to exchange something potentially dangerous to others/the world at large to save him? Really? And this happened I think partially so Henry Winchester could be the sacrificing hero. So once again Sam is the ineffectual Samsel in distress because the plot dictates that he is...That whole thing annoyed the crap out of me, and since this season was already annoying the crap out of me, I was on annoyance overload.

[rue721]

I don't buy into the whole idea that John was a sad and lonely kid and I've never been too fond of the snooty Men Of Letters concept

 

Yes, I *hate* the retcon that the Winchesters were bred like show dogs (BLECH) to be pedigreed hunters, and that they're "supposed" to have been raised to be members of this elitist secret society because they're 4th generation legacies. And Henry even says that only the very top shelf hunters are let in on any of the secrets. Everything about all those ideas is just terrible.

I love that literally the next episode is about Nazis, too. First an episode about how the guys' bloodline is so pure and they're bred to be the perfect hunters, and then the next episode is about the *Nazis.* COME. ON. What were they thinking?

 

Henry's actually a pretty cool character, though. I like his personality, he's so prickly in this kind of silly, mannered way while still seeming like smart, trustworthy guy. I also like how he knew enough about supernatural stuff to not be confused or surprised about a lot of the major stuff, but since he'd skipped decades of history and was coming at things from a different angle, he couldn't quite get on the same page as the guys. It was also fun to hear about John as a four-year-old, and to see this young man looking at John's journal with fatherly pride/familiarity. I wish that instead of being killed within the episode, Henry had been allowed to flit through time while trying to find his way home, Quantum Leap-style, and they could maybe even run into him from time to time. Like maybe if the guys had let him do the spell to go back to his time, and then after he's gone, they wait for the other shoe to fall and for them to go POOF or the world to change in any way, but it doesn't...and then eventually, like in another season or something, they randomly run into Henry again.

 

I wish we'd found out more about John as a kid (and about his mom, even). It's not so much that I didn't buy that he was lonely growing up, because who even knows, it just seemed really without any context. And a weird way to describe your father's childhood in any case, isn't it? I can't imagine John was sitting there telling a story from when he was a kid, and was like, "yes, it was a very lonely childhood." LOL. Anyway, I wanted to hear more about Henry/[Wife?]/John as a family in any case because imo the time travel aspect was fun given that Henry and the guys are from different generations of the same family. One of my favorite things in the episode was when Henry started whistling the Casablanca song, and Sam said that John used to whistle it from time to time, so Henry explained that he'd gotten John a music box that played the same song because John found it comforting.

 

I don't know how I feel about Dean being so harsh to Henry for virtually the whole episode. On the one hand, it's completely in-character, so how else was he going to be, but on the other hand, it seemed childish to me. Not just because it became obvious very early on that Henry hadn't actually abandoned John in the first place. Also because they were only going to be with Henry for a short time and had had zero personal relationship with him up until that day, so it seemed ridiculous to me that Dean insisted on being so aggressive with him right from the word go.

 

As for the actual plot, I guess it was OK. There wasn't much of one, so the episode felt kind of draggy to me. I think the structure was off, and it would have worked better if there had been a C-story worked in. As the episode was, there were a lot of scenes where we would see the guys and Henry do something, and then we'd see Abaddon see them do the same thing but through a witness's eyes. Not riveting. But there were a lot of ideas and moments I liked, and Henry's idea about the bullet was fun. There just wasn't quite enough plot to keep things moving imo or quite enough different plotlines to keep the momentum rising, imo.

[catrox14]

My fanwank is that Dean being angry with Henry is projecting some of his own feelings of abandonment by John when John went off on hunts and left him to raise Sam. I think Dean has long struggled to figure out what he meant to John and what John means to him. He can't fathom that John had a sort of comfortable life as a boy compared to Dean's life at that age. I think there was some misplaced anger that landed on Henry when he really meant it for John.

Or the writers forgot that Dean had a lot of anger about John.

[supposebly]

 

My fanwank is that Dean being angry with Henry is projecting some of his own feelings of abandonment by John when John went off on hunts and left him to raise Sam.

 

I just think at this point, he is really too old for these kinds of complaints. He sounded like a 20 year-old. I think this was a case where Jensen did not rise above the writing and actually made it worse by overacting.

 

*ducks various rotten vegetables

Edited December 16, 2014 by supposebly

[catrox14]

I just think at this point, he is really too old for these kinds of complaints. He sounded like a 20 year-old. I think this was a case where Jensen did not rise above the writing and actually made it worse by overacting.

*ducks various rotten vegetables

I don't think Dean is too old for dealing with shit he's pushed away for years. Gods there is stuff in my family that only came up AFTER my dad passed away. Some really tough stuff. I think it can take a major event like Dean meeting Henry or Adam to trigger stuff we might not even know has been lurking inside of us. Also I think Dean was still coping with his Purgatory struggles and feeling guilty about Amelia.

I also think wasn't Dean really pleased with how dismissive and crappy Henry was about hunters, calling them mindless apes IIRC.

Edited December 16, 2014 by catrox14

[rue721]

The reason I found it childish wasn't because Dean is too old to have an issue with John/Henry ("John Henry"? heh***), it was more how he kept stomping around all hotheaded and pissed off. Henry would never see his family ever again, and his son would go to his grave thinking he'd abandoned him, but Dean wanted to still be a jerk to Henry about it, and maybe also over some pearl clutching on Henry's part about them not being MoL? It's not like Dean is ever very welcoming to strangers who say they're family, so at least that was consistent, but I did think the amount and relentlessness of his aggression toward Henry was OTT given the circumstances. I guess the point is, I don't have an issue with what Dean was apparently feeling, but I thought he was acting like a jerk.

 

ETA:

 

I think this was a case where Jensen did not rise above the writing and actually made it worse by overacting.

 

I think you're right, he went too broad. I think he's going too broad in a bunch of the episodes in this stretch tbh. Some of it might be because the characterization (and the show's tone) is all over the place this season, and esp imo in this stretch of episodes. The one with gratuitous torture is right before the kids' show LARPing episode, which is right before this "secret society"/family drama episode, which is right before

the Golem episode (which imo is much more old school SPN)

. It's giving me whiplash to watch even as a viewer, so who knows what it was like trying to work on the show or bring consistency to a character that season.

 

In this case, it also probably didn't help that Sam had like two lines in this whole episode, so he couldn't help balance things out (in terms of Dean acting hotheaded).

 

***ETA II:

 

My personal favorite John Henry ballad ever, by Mississippi Frank McDowell. Imagine how completely different this episode would have had to have been for this song to have made sense on its soundtrack! But gotta say that now my fingers are crossed that John's mother's name was Polly Ann.

Edited December 17, 2014 by rue721

[catrox14]

Oh I agree Dean was being a jerk.I was just saying why I think that happened. When something triggers you, your reactions aren't always rational.

I also think this episode was setting up Sam to be the legacy of book lernin'and showing him to be more rational and understanding of Henry. It was a good episode because I thought IL McKinney was great but I would like to have more info on why Dean was so angry. It almost seems like a scene was cut or dialogue left out that might have given more insight to Dean here.

Edited December 16, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I thought I would probably like this one better on re-watch--I didn't. I don't hate it and there are some interesting bits, but the whole snooty Men Of Letters stuff still sticks in my craw. And then the logic fails and blatant stupid at times really annoys me. Also, physical angel feathers, and Dean's just carrying them around in his trunk...really show? I still think the devil's trap bullet was a cool idea, even if it doesn't totally make sense if you really think about it.

 

 

I would like to have more info on why Dean was so angry. It almost seems like a scene was cut or dialogue left out that might have given more insight to Dean here.

 

I think Dean is weary of the family legacy coming out of the closet (heh, pun now intended), nothing good ever comes from it. But, I thought they explained it fairly well, Dean said that John hated the son of a bitch, so he fell into line with daddy's point of view, IMO. I think he assumed John had an actual reason for hating Henry beyond him never coming back. I agree, I think Jensen went too broad with it. But I think there were quite a few acting missteps in this episode, IMO--Jared over telegraphing in the scene where he gets kidnapped and some of Gil's stuff seems a little too on the nose and Alaina's screaming is a bit over the top also--so I'm going with director fail. This was Serge Ladouceur's first time directing and I think the episode looks beautiful, especially the 1958 stuff, but I'm not sure he landed all the performances.

[Goldmoon]

Would agree with most of the stuff already said except for Dean acting like a 20 year old.  He has so much pain, disappointment, and rage stuffed down in his bag of denial, I am not surprised that it pops out every so often in ways that may only be tangentially related to what we are seeing on the screen.  In my book, that keeps Dean complex and interesting because the viewers know he is full of angst and we have seen a lot of it. 

 

I disliked the actress who played Abbadon and really didn't engage with Henry either.  This whole retcon is disturbing.  Who on the staff thought it was a good idea to include the Winchesters into the Man of Letters legacy?  If the MoL existed, fine, but I can't buy that they exist in the same family.  The hunters are a gritty blue-collar bunch who seem mostly undereducated and suicide-prone to save the world and that just doesn't jibe with the elitism from Henry.  I will stick with the previous story about how John became a hunter when Mary died.  Maybe Samuel taught him?  I don't think they ever said where John got his training. Anyway, I do like the bunker which I will get to next ep.

 

Does Cas just shed when he rides in the back seat?  What on earth are they doing with Angel feathers?  Sigh.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Goldmoon

[catrox14]

I didn't think this was a retcon. I think it was just expanding the lore to the Winchester side of the family. It doesn't change that John was never a hunter until Mary died anyway.

Edited March 11, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I will stick with the previous story about how John became a hunter when Mary died.  Maybe Samuel taught him?  I don't think they ever said where John got his training. Anyway, I do like the bunker which I will get to next ep.

 

Samuel was already dead by the time Mary died, he died the night Mary made the deal to bring back John in 1972. Mary died 10 years later. My understanding was John got his training on the job, although, back in S1 John says Daniel Elkins taught him a hell of a lot about the job.

 

I didn't think this was a retcon. I think it was just expanding the lore to the Winchester side of the family. It doesn't change that John was never a hunter until Mary died anyway.

 

I think the retcon was that John was a sad and lonely kid who grew up without a father. He didn't seem all that sad and lonely in either In The Beginning or The Song Remains the Same. Plus, someone was standing in as his "old man" since one of the patrons of that diner told John to tell him hello. Also, the commentary with Kripke and Carver on In The Beginning contradicts this, too.

Edited March 19, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

didn't seem all that sad and lonely in either In The Beginning or The Song Remains the Same. Plus, someone was standing in as his "old man" since one of the patrons of that diner told John to tell him hello. Also, the commentary with Kripke and Carver on In The Beginning contradicts this, too.

 

I struggled with the "old man" line because it's a huge continuity fail but it actually doesn't materially change how, when and why John became a hunter which was all predicated upon Mary being killed and John not knowing about the deal until the night she was killed.

 

Just fanwanking it's possible that John decided to not become a Man of Letters anyway despite Henry's wishes. Millie might not have permitted it like Mary not permitting the boys to raised hunters.

 

John could have rejected being a legacy and just went on with his life, like Sam going to college and not hunting.  He might not have ever told Mary about being a Man of Letters and just got on with his life. He might have hated the Men of Letters because it took his dad away from home so he didn't want to be like his Dad. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I wasn't suggesting it changed how John became a hunter, but saying that I thought the retcon was something else entirely.

[catrox14]

I was responding to Goldmoon's comment about John's hunting...in that I didn't think that was a retcon. Not about John being a sad and lonely child.  I didn't make it clear enough which comment I was responding to initially.  Sorry for that confusion!

[rue721]

Maybe when the diner customer in In the Beginning said, "say hi to your old man," he was referring to John's stepfather. *shrug*

 

I'm sort of curious about John's family, but as a family, not in terms of the Men of Letters bullshit.

 

Thinking about it, it might have made for an interesting flashback to see John, Sam and Dean visiting John's mother and stepfather, and any step- or half-siblings of John's, and their kids. I assume that none of the rest of the family would be "in the life."

Edited March 19, 2015 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

I was responding to Goldmoon's comment about John's hunting...in that I didn't think that was a retcon. Not about John being a sad and lonely child.  I didn't make it clear enough which comment I was responding to initially.  Sorry for that confusion!

 

Sorry, you quoted me, so I thought you were responding to me.

 

 

Maybe when the diner customer in In the Beginning said, "say hi to your old man," he was referring to John's stepfather. *shrug*

 

Either way, I think my point still stands that John did not grow up with out a father figure, but seemed to have a normal happy childhood. Why it annoys me so much is, I always thought of John as being the innocent and untouched of the family who got drug into all this crap later. He had the normal life, was optimistic--even after a fighting in a war--and seemed to be happy. All that gets ruined after Mary dies. If he's a sad and lonely kid and always had a shitty life, then it takes the punch out of what comes later, IMO.

[supposebly]

Did John even know about the Men of Letters? He was what, 8 when Henry disappeared? Or do I need to watch the episode again?

 

They all died the night Henry disappeared, no?

[DittyDotDot]

Did John even know about the Men of Letters? He was what, 8 when Henry disappeared? Or do I need to watch the episode again?

 

They all died the night Henry disappeared, no?

 

Well most of them died the night Henry disappeared, anyway. As far as I know, John knew nothing of the Men of Letters. At the beginning of the episode John, who appears to be around 7 or 8, asks Henry about his MoL pin and Henry says he'll tell him about it someday. My assumption was he knew nothing of the MoL or the supernatural before Mary dies.

[rue721]

Either way, I think my point still stands that John did not grow up with out a father figure, but seemed to have a normal happy childhood. Why it annoys me so much is, I always thought of John as being the innocent and untouched of the family who got drug into all this crap later. He had the normal life, was optimistic--even after a fighting in a war--and seemed to be happy. All that gets ruined after Mary dies. If he's a sad and lonely kid and always had a shitty life, then it takes the punch out of what comes later, IMO.

 

My point is that I don't think it's a retcon that John's childhood was good/bad/indifferent. The show really never went into it at all afaik. Maybe he had a stepfather or grandfather (or whoever) who was involved in raising him, or maybe not. *shrug.* It's all been left very vague -- there's not much "canon" for them to "retcon" in the first place.

 

The line about John's childhood being "lonely" was awkward imo, because that just doesn't sound to me like something a son would say (or even know) about his father. And I found Dean completely OTT in how he was dealing with Henry. He doesn't even know the man. Just suck it up and be polite ffs. But I thought that was poor characterization rather than retconning.

 

AFAIK, John didn't know anything about the supernatural (including the MoL) before Mary died and he started talking to Missouri. But I assume that John was already kind of messed up before Mary died in any case, because of his reaction to her death and how he brought up his own kids/lived out the rest of his own life. Maybe Mary's parents were right not to like him, maybe he wasn't husband material. Maybe Mary saw the best in him (that he could be sweet and sensitive) and ignored the bad parts, or maybe she was too naive to see how the sensitivity she loved in him could become instability, too. In that cheesy Dark Side of the Moon memory from when Dean was really little, he was already leaving his wife and kid for days because he was pissed off about something and acting hotheaded.

 

I think that John's (apparently mistaken) belief that Henry had abandoned him is mostly interesting in terms of how it affected the decisions he made about "being there" for his own sons. Because it seemed like he really did make a major effort to be there for them (and even kept his kids with him on the road), but was still literally, physically absent a lot. It also makes me think about his assumption that Adam didn't need to know about the supernatural, that he would be safe with his mother. And it also maybe puts his insistence on Sam and Dean being supremely loyal to the family and being "trained" to protect themselves from a really early age in a slightly different light.

 

Not that the actual episode went into *any* of that, lol.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm probably basing a lot of my theories on John's childhood from the commentary on In The Beginning with Kripke and Carver. They talk about how John was the one person who had a normal and happy childhood. To me, it makes more sense to me the type of father he becomes after that innocence is shattered. Of course miles vary. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Hey!  Finally a decent episode!  I think (since it's Monday) I'm going back to my random bullet points format:

• I liked Henry.  I really liked how he was so civil and polite when asking Dean if he needed to keep choking him.  Gotta love that.  Slick move with the handcuffs too.  I hope he had time to show Sam and Dean.  
• Some really funny Henry moments adjusting to modern technology.  I like that kind of stuff.
• Too bad he had to die.  While I'm on that - I really don't understand why Dean couldn't let him go back to the past to stop the madness from that end.  Dean would have known immediately if it worked (or not known - but then he wouldn't have been in that position so it wouldn't have mattered.)  And if it didn't work, I'm sure Dean still could have come up with an alternate plan to get Sam back.  But then, I guess that would have changed cannon, cause if Henry went back and raised John as a MoL, then John would have that knowledge to pass on to his sons, which he clearly didn't.  Although...they still could have some other plot machination to explain why, even though Henry raised his son, he didn't live long enough to impart his knowledge, etc.  I just really don't like that John thought his dad abandoned him when he was trying to save him, and his sons.  
• I understand what Sam was ruminating about how it would have been different if Henry had made it back.  (This kind of goes what I've read in the media thread lately about JP speculating about Mary and Sam's relationship or lack thereof.)  I'm a "wonderer" too.  It doesn't mean I don't fully accept the present because you can't change the past and it is what it is.  It just means that I wonder "what if" sometimes.  
• I also liked Abaddon, as far as villains go.  Too bad she was put out of action so soon.  (I know from spoilers she makes an appearance later also.)  I just think she would have been interesting to have around a little while longer.  Not cool honoring her word that Sam and Dean could leave though.  
• I gotta say though, it seemed kind of lax of Sam not to check Larry and his wife out for Demon possession first.  I mean, after the last several eps of showing Kevin and him mom splashing everyone with Holy Water, I thought this was SOP now.  
• Why aren't all their bullets carved with Devil's traps now?  It wouldn't make any difference to non-demons they had to shoot, and if it immobilized demons to allow them to get close enough to stab, then that's a whole lot easier than all that hand to hand combat and getting wounded and tossed around.
• Ditto about the demon bombs.
• Where did they bury Henry?  It didn't look like where Mary's grave is.  Not sure where John is buried,  I would hope next to his wife.  Did they salt and burn Henry first?  Just in case?  Was Henry married?  They didn't mention it in this ep. So whatever happened to John's mother?
• That whole "brains and brawn" thing about the Campbells and Winchesters bugged me.  Maybe on the surface both clans seem to be distinctly one or the other.  Grampy Campbell was certainly more ape hunter than brainy MoL.  But Henry sure knew his way around a spell or two, didn't he?  Which tells me they were more than just passive 'collect data' and 'chronicle all things Supernatural'  types.  And Mary wasn't just all dumb hunter either.  Even before this 'legacy' bit, Dean and Sam have always embodied both - but I guess that's because they had both in their bloodline, huh?  (snort - yeah right.)o
• Interesting quote from Henry: "You're also Winchesters. As long as we're alive, there's always hope."  Hm...makes me wonder about the future.  
• I wonder (see, there I go 'wondering' again! :) )  who qualified as the "few elite hunters" back in the day to the MoL snobs.
• Wow.  What a stroke of luck to get their hands on "every scroll, spell and piece of knowledge the Men of Letters had".  Not that it's seemed to have helped them much over the years.  ;)

Edited June 28, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
more thoughts

[DittyDotDot]

On 6/27/2016 at 8:05 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Too bad he had to die.  While I'm on that - I really don't understand why Dean couldn't let him go back to the past to stop the madness from that end.  Dean would have known immediately if it worked (or not known - but then he wouldn't have been in that position so it wouldn't have mattered.)  And if it didn't work, I'm sure Dean still could have come up with an alternate plan to get Sam back.  But then, I guess that would have changed cannon, cause if Henry went back and raised John as a MoL, then John would have that knowledge to pass on to his sons, which he clearly didn't.  Although...they still could have some other plot machination to explain why, even though Henry raised his son, he didn't live long enough to impart his knowledge, etc.  I just really don't like that John thought his dad abandoned him when he was trying to save him, and his sons.  

Oh, the trouble with time travel, don't even get me started...

To be fair, though, I think Dean was actually being smart here. They didn't know what it would mean, so best not jump in until they have some more information. It's interesting to think of how much alike Dean and Henry really are--they both make quick emotional decisions when it comes to family. Could be another reason why Dean immediately took a dislike to Henry, too? Kinda like how Sam and John butted heads more often than not.

On 6/27/2016 at 8:05 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Where did they bury Henry?  It didn't look like where Mary's grave is.  Not sure where John is buried,  I would hope next to his wife.  Did they salt and burn Henry first?  Just in case?  Was Henry married?  They didn't mention it in this ep. So whatever happened to John's mother?

I don't know where they buried him, or if they buried him at all. Could be just a marker, as a memorial. I can't imagine them not giving him a hunter's funeral though, seems kinda reckless not too, but I dunno. 

Regarding John's mother:

Spoiler

There's a tiny bit more to come on Henry's backstory in S9. And, that's not the last we hear of Abbadon either. Or Josie, for that matter.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 7/5/2016 at 8:22 AM, DittyDotDot said:

To be fair, though, I think Dean was actually being smart here. They didn't know what it would mean, so best not jump in until they have some more information.

Haha!  But of all the times he actually didn't jump in first?  When that's pretty much what they've been doing this whole season?  Or at least, half the season so far.

And then right back out the window in another ep or two with the box sniffing.

On 7/5/2016 at 8:22 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Could be another reason why Dean immediately took a dislike to Henry, too?

I assumed that was because:

A.Henry popped out of their closet, and Dean being the smart Hunter that he is, would immediately distrust anyone who did that.

B. What little John may have said about him over the years probably wasn't flattering and so influenced Dean's opinion.

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Haha!  But of all the times he actually didn't jump in first?  When that's pretty much what they've been doing this whole season?  Or at least, half the season so far.

And then right back out the window in another ep or two with the box sniffing.

But, it wouldn't be Supernatural if they weren't incredibly foolish at least 90 percent of the time! ;)

22 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I assumed that was because:

A.Henry popped out of their closet, and Dean being the smart Hunter that he is, would immediately distrust anyone who did that.

B. What little John may have said about him over the years probably wasn't flattering and so influenced Dean's opinion.

Oh yeah, like I said above, John hated the guy and I thought Dean was just assuming John had good reasons and adjusted to Dad's way of thinking. I'm just saying it could also be that Dean saw something in Henry he sees in himself and decided he didn't like it too.

[Dobian]

One of my favorite episodes of the series, and best one of season 8 so far.  I was really moved by the ending.  Dean's reasoning to not let his grandfather try to change the past, I totally agree with.  Trying to alter history always creates far more problems than it solves.  He was totally in the right on that one.  Some minor nitpicks - If you shoot up into their skull point-blank, most likely the bullet is going to blow out the top and end up in the ceiling.  And even with the bullet inside her skull, wouldn't the trap just move around with her?  It's anchored to her, not to a stationary object she's standing on our under.  But that aside, the whole grandfather back story was some welcome lore about the Winchesters, I hope to learn more.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, Dobian said:

If you shoot up into their skull point-blank, most likely the bullet is going to blow out the top and end up in the ceiling.

I am no weapons expert by any means, but I do know that it would depend on the type ( regular, ie: Full Metal Jacket vs. hollow point) and caliber of bullet.  For example, 22-shorts don't have near the range and stopping power of .38 specials.  And a FMJ .38 spl might not even exit a person's body the way a hollow point .38 spl would.  Also, for dedicated hunters, it would not be out of the realm of possibility to pack their own bullets (I know guys who have) - and use less than the typical amount of powder in this case to ensure that the bullet would not exit the skull.  

6 hours ago, Dobian said:

And even with the bullet inside her skull, wouldn't the trap just move around with her?  It's anchored to her, not to a stationary object she's standing on our under.

This is a good point.  It would at least freeze her demonic powers though, wouldn't it?

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This is a good point.  It would at least freeze her demonic powers though, wouldn't it?

That's what I understood they were trying to do, just depower her so Dean could get close enough to lop off her head. This way the demon is locked inside a head with no power and no body.

Edited July 23, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

I was listening to the commentary on this episode and Carver says they referenced another episode with the "hunter's signs" Henry mentions when he goes into that shop to get the rest of the ingredients for his spell. Adam Glass said it was from Brett's episode in S6. I assume he's talking about Brett Mathews who wrote for the show in S6--Live Free or Twihard; Caged Heat; And Then There Were None--but I have no idea what episode they're referring to. Not that it matters, but it's been driving my crazy trying to figure it out. Does anyone know what episode they're talking about?

Also, still find the whole notion of angel feathers being so literal and something physical one can touch and hold in one's hands--and that Dean is just carrying some around in Baby's trunk--extremely silly. I've been calling the Carver years "The Era of the Petty Little Jerks" but now I'm torn between that and calling them the "Literal Era." These are hard decisions people! ;)

Edited August 31, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[pixelcat]

On 8/31/2016 at 11:25 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I was listening to the commentary on this episode and Carver says they referenced another episode with the "hunter's signs" Henry mentions when he goes into that shop to get the rest of the ingredients for his spell. Adam Glass said it was from Brett's episode in S6. I assume he's talking about Brett Mathews who wrote for the show in S6--Live Free or Twihard; Caged Heat; And Then There Were None--but I have no idea what episode they're referring to. Not that it matters, but it's been driving my crazy trying to figure it out. Does anyone know what episode they're talking about?

The only two episodes I remember that talk about a store with "hunter signs" was this one, and "Meta Fiction" from Season 9.  Maybe it ended up being a deleted scene or something?

On 8/31/2016 at 11:25 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Also, still find the whole notion of angel feathers being so literal and something physical one can touch and hold in one's hands--and that Dean is just carrying some around in Baby's trunk--extremely silly.

I always thought the angel feathers were what we see after an angel is killed, with the black "fallout" being leftover feathers, since that's the only time we actually see wings that aren't shadow wings.  But does beg the question, where is everyone getting them from?  Before a few years ago, I can't imagine that many angels were killed on earth, or were even ON earth.  Trade with faeries perhaps?

[DittyDotDot]

38 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

But does beg the question, where is everyone getting them from?  Before a few years ago, I can't imagine that many angels were killed on earth, or were even ON earth.  Trade with faeries perhaps?

I get how Dean might have one or two--even if I still think the whole notion is just silly--but where did Henry get one? Back in 1958 there wasn't supposed to be angels on earth... .

[Demented Daisy]

Now, Ditty, that's logic.  You know better than that.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Now, Ditty, that's logic.  You know better than that.  ;-)

Oh yeah, forgot where I was this morning, I guess. ;)

[Hanahope]

So part of me kept going out of the show because of the near-masonic clone symbol they used for the MoL.  And I kept wondering, really?  There's only one MoL group of 4-5 guys?  At least the "ape-like" hunters have a little bit of a network to keep in touch country-wide.  

But I did like that Sam and Dean really are a mash-up of two sides of demon/monster hunting, the brains and the brawn (with Sam being slightly more brain and Dean being slightly more brawn) and working together.  Yeah, I also noted a bit of the retcon as to John's childhood, but I just assumed this is what John told Dean.

They'd better be putting devil's trap on all their bullets now.

[bettername2come]

The four-year-olds on this show never look four. Eh, first mini-Dean did. Neat trick Grandpa did with the handcuffs. Ah, Sam and Dean getting thrown into walls. It's classic for a reason. "Dudes time travelling through motel room closets, that's what we've come to?" Speaking for the audience again, man. "I freaking hate time travel, man." You liar! You love time travel when you get to do it. They are hitting the dramatic family moments theme music hard in this one. I like new age shop owner with a sawed off shotgun. We need more characters like that. Why am I such a sucker for their brotherly declarations of protection? Abaddon is my least favorite redhead on this series. I do like her "show me what you've seen" trick. I do think fate handing out the Winchester-Campbell merger is pretty cool. And their last name sounds like a fancy one that would have a legacy attached to it. Even if it is a retcon. (I'm going with eventual stepdad and mechanic maternal grandpa, personally)

[Wayward Son]

On 19/03/2015 at 6:28 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I think the retcon was that John was a sad and lonely kid who grew up without a father. He didn't seem all that sad and lonely in either In The Beginning or The Song Remains the Same. 

I don’t necessarily think this has to be a retcon, or at least not a retcon that clashes with previously existing canon. IIRC the only times we saw John were his early adult years. He was already dating Mary during In the Beginning and they were married and ready to start a family of their own in The Song Remains the Same. I think it’s pretty feasible his relationship with Mary brought happiness into his life and therefore him being happy here doesn’t take away from the fact he may have had a less than perfect childhood. As for the commentary, if it doesn’t make it into the episode and it contradicts something that does make it into an episode then it isn’t canon IMO.

 

On 19/03/2015 at 7:40 PM, rue721 said:

Maybe when the diner customer in In the Beginning said, "say hi to your old man," he was referring to John's stepfather. *shrug*

Thats my take on it as well. I imagine when Carver wrote In the Beginning he was referring to John’s biological father. However, the phrase “old man” is so vague that the diner guy could have just been referring to a step father. I think it’s one of those instances where new information enhances existing canon rather than detracts from it.

 

On 28/06/2016 at 2:05 AM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

1. Where did they bury Henry?  It didn't look like where Mary's grave is.  Not sure where John is buried,  I would hope next to his wife.  Did they salt and burn Henry first?  Just in case?  Was Henry married?  They didn't mention it in this ep. So whatever happened to John's mother?

 

2. I wonder (see, there I gowondering' again! :) )  who qualified as the "few elite hunters" back in the day to the MoL snobs.

1. I thought they buried him in the graveyard with the other man of letters. It looked like a similar background to me and it would make sense to bury Henry with other members of the organisation he valued so much.

2. I actually think Samuel and the Campbells may have qualified as one of the hunters that the man of letters shared their intel with. It would explain why Samuel knew additional information such as the cure for vampirism. Plus, it’d make sense that the angels would pick the very best of hunters to breed with the Winchesters to create their perfect vessels. In addition to this, 

 

Spoiler

During a season 12 episode Mary had at least heard of the man of letters. Her reaction to their name was “I thought that was a myth” suggesting she had at least heard of them unlike Sam and Dean and the other hunters they knew

 

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Iju]

i don't understand their grandfather (yuck, more blood connections) and their confusion on their non inclusion on being the "men of letters" (which, btw, is so angeringly vague) when it was well known that john knew less than 0 about anything supernatural. or maybe henry didn't know he'd left john yet and left him to have a normal life. if that's the case then i'll drop it.

the demon signs on the bullets is so smart! i was thinking that they should pull out the beers on a weekend night and just do that to all their bullets in one setting.

[DittyDotDot]

On 8/17/2018 at 5:24 PM, Iju said:

i don't understand their grandfather (yuck, more blood connections) and their confusion on their non inclusion on being the "men of letters" (which, btw, is so angeringly vague) when it was well known that john knew less than 0 about anything supernatural. or maybe henry didn't know he'd left john yet and left him to have a normal life. if that's the case then i'll drop it.

Yes, at the top of the hour, Henry tells wee John that he'll tell John about his MoL pin someday, but Henry never returns to fulfill that promise. So John never learns about the supernatural until after Mary dies.

[The Companion]

On 7/22/2016 at 12:23 PM, Dobian said:

One of my favorite episodes of the series, and best one of season 8 so far.  I was really moved by the ending.  Dean's reasoning to not let his grandfather try to change the past, I totally agree with.  Trying to alter history always creates far more problems than it solves.  He was totally in the right on that one.  Some minor nitpicks - If you shoot up into their skull point-blank, most likely the bullet is going to blow out the top and end up in the ceiling.  And even with the bullet inside her skull, wouldn't the trap just move around with her?  It's anchored to her, not to a stationary object she's standing on our under.  But that aside, the whole grandfather back story was some welcome lore about the Winchesters, I hope to learn more.

All i could think was any bullet remaining in the skull would get misshapen. 

On one hand, I really enjoyed this after the miserable way this season has played out so far. You had interpersonal drama that arose organically and the end result, retcon or not, was sad. You had a new and interesting enemy.

On the other hand, there were some problems and missed opportunities. I assume I just have to get used to it, but wtf Sam. 1. When demons are afoot, we check early and often. 2. We don't tell strangers sensitive information like: yes, we have the box. 

I also didn't love how they wrote Dean here, mainly because they could have really hit some amazing character moments if they didn't ignore what Dean went through with Lisa and Ben. This is the second time I have said it this season. Dean knows what it is to be forced to walk away from a kid. What it means to choose between saving the world and being a father (figure, in his case). Dean gave up a family he purportedly loved and wiped their memory to keep them safe. Imagine what JA could have done with a few character beats this season calling back to that, both when explaining why you can't have a normal life and when working through this.

So, I liked it but I didn't love it. 

[Katy M]

18 hours ago, The Companion said:

On the other hand, there were some problems and missed opportunities. I assume I just have to get used to it, but wtf Sam. 1. When demons are afoot, we check early and often. 2. We don't tell strangers sensitive information like: yes, we have the box. 

But, then how would stuff happen:)

I found it weird that Abaddon bothered to tie Sam's hands.  Seriously, what was he going to do?  Oh, that's right.  They can just punch out powerful demons.  I forgot.

18 hours ago, The Companion said:

All i could think was any bullet remaining in the skull would get misshapen. 

Maybe the MOLs have special bullets that keep their shape no matter what. You may laugh now, but you won't later.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Katy M

[Nick24]

Interesting foreshadowing has taken place in this episode:

Transcript 

Quote

DEAN (to Abaddon): You might not be dead, but you'll wish you were.

Spoiler

Because that's exactly what happened to Dean when he became a demon in 9.23. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Nick24