S05.E07: No Woman's Land

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

As BBC's Martin Bashir goes to great lengths to secure an interview with Diana, the lonely princess finds purpose and warmth in a London hospital.

Dropping on Wednesday, November 9, 2022.

[Roseanna]

Bashir really was a disgrace to journalists: after studying Diana and her brother's weaknesses he falsified documents as "evidence" that she was an offer of M5 or M6's dirty tricks and duped easily poor Diana who was already paranoid. 

Just as before the marriage, Diana had nobody who could have given her a sound advice.

[peridot]

I can't believe that unethical journalist.  Who would even think to go that far, just to get a story!?  He didn't even care about the fact that he was destroying the relationships/trust of an isolated woman.

Diana was pretty self-centered, going on about how hot the doctor looks when her acupuncturist's husband just got out of surgery.  She seemed a bit too much - talking about having a Pakistani husband, leaning on the shoulder of a guy she barely knows, and talking about her shattered heart.  She seemed very needy and melodramatic. 

I almost forgot about Charles' jerk moment, castigating Diana about some imaginary slight.  It seemed like Diana was thumbing her nose at him, by cuddling William like that.  I hate that he was put in the middle.

[secnarf]

I love that they went to go see Apollo 13, one of my favourite movies.

This entire season is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Poor William and Harry.

[dubbel zout]

20 minutes ago, secnarf said:

This entire season is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Poor William and Harry.

Seriously. The queen was right when she said no child should have to worry about his parents.

It cracked me up that Charles Spencer called Bashir's boss to get a recommendation. Of course the boss is going to say he's trustworthy! The boss wants the interview with Diana as badly as Bashir does. 

I wonder where the library scenes were shot. That was a gorgeous space.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Good God. That  Bashir was so unethical and manipulative had my jaw dropping. Faking bank statements? Making up shit so that Diana wouldn’t talk to Oprah or Barbara Walters?

He looked so smug and no remorse for what he was doing and then using his assumption that she was attracted to Pakistanis to use to use to his advantage.

An unmitigated asshole of the first order.And he was supposed to be an investigative journalist?! And I’m supposed to believe Charles Spencer was that stupid?

Edited November 12, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[anniebird]

Where was Prince Harry supposed to be while Diana was doing all this cavorting? He never even got mentioned.

Edited November 14, 2022 by anniebird

[dubbel zout]

William was Diana's confidant much more than Harry was, and I think Morgan is showing some restraint due to the fact that both boys were minors when all of this was going down. There might even be rules about stuff like that.

[Oosala]

Casting really knocked it out of the park with Charles Spencer. In the first split second, I actually thought it was him. And no, I don’t know why I thought that was possible. For the first time, I didn’t have to struggle with “Who is that supposed to be?”

[Straycat80]

Bashir was really a creep. I was surprised Diana didn’t fire Patrick. If she had it would have been a shame because it was a lie that he was ratting her out. 
I thought Diana and Dr. Khan were kind of cute together. Two lonely people who found each other at least for a little while. 

[formerlyfreedom]

Folks, please read the red box warning above where you are posting. Lots of posts are being removed for not following the forum guidelines. Stick to what happens in the episode and up to it. Events from after the episode are off topic and mentions or even hinting at them will be removed; repeat offenders may see other sanctions. Thank you.

[paramitch]

This was so hard to watch. I couldn't believe Bashir was falsifying bank records to get close to the Spencers. I mean, sheesh. He crossed so many lines here -- forget journalistic ethics, he should be in jail.

On 11/10/2022 at 7:15 PM, peridot said:

Diana was pretty self-centered, going on about how hot the doctor looks when her acupuncturist's husband just got out of surgery.  She seemed a bit too much - talking about having a Pakistani husband, leaning on the shoulder of a guy she barely knows, and talking about her shattered heart.  She seemed very needy and melodramatic. 

I didn't like Peter Morgan's depiction of Diana in this episode. She almost comes across as fetishizing Pakistani men (she mentions it specifically with the doctor, and with Bashir), and her conversation with the doctor was asinine. No, I do not believe Diana was speaking wistfully about being married to some strict Pakistani traditionalist because she had already experienced that with the royal family. I mean, WTF? That was just sort of icky to me.

The doctor did come across as kind, shy, and charming, though -- direct contrast to the scheming, lying, Bashir. Ugh.

On 11/11/2022 at 8:29 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

An unmitigated asshole of the first order. And he was supposed to be an investigative journalist?! And I’m supposed to believe Charles Spencer was that stupid?

Spencer really was duped, though, and he talked publicly about it after the fact. The fake bank records are what absolutely convinced him to put Bashir in touch with Diana, starting the whole thing rolling.

[Spartan Girl]

10 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

Bashir was really a creep. I was surprised Diana didn’t fire Patrick. If she had it would have been a shame because it was a lie that he was ratting her out. 
I thought Diana and Dr. Khan were kind of cute together. Two lonely people who found each other at least for a little while. 

They were cute. But the line about “just looking for a frog to make me happy” was kind of cringey. I agree with the sentiment, but it could have been worded a little differently.

Diana’s near accident was scary. No wonder she was spooked and susceptible to a creep like Bashir. 

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

I didn't like Peter Morgan's depiction of Diana in this episode. She almost comes across as fetishizing Pakistani men (she mentions it specifically with the doctor, and with Bashir), and her conversation with the doctor was asinine. No, I do not believe Diana was speaking wistfully about being married to some strict Pakistani traditionalist because she had already experienced that with the royal family. I mean, WTF? That was just sort of icky to me.

I agree. Plus, Diana accepted Charles's proposal after just over teh dates - and now we are asked to believe that she in the 30ies falls for a man just for her eyes and doesn't even bother to get to know him properly?

[dubbel zout]

59 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

now we are asked to believe that she in the 30ies falls for a man just for her eyes and doesn't even bother to get to know him properly?

I buy this, actually. She was romantic to a fault, and I think still had naive ideas about relationships. She desperately wanted that happy ending.

[andromeda331]

Wow, Bashir should have been fired and thrown in jail. Creating fake bank accounts and crap was horrible. 

I like you Diana but that was not the moment to gush to your friend about the doctor working to save her husband's life. I also didn't like her comparing her royal life to Pakistani traditional life. It's not the same thing. I felt for William. She shouldn't be using him to confide in. He shouldn't have to worry about her. I did like her going to the hospital for her friend. That was nice.

I wondered where Harry was too. Was he at school? With Charles? Who knows. Then again I also wonder where Margaret's kids are in her centric episodes. 

Charles was a jerk at the book signing thing. William was clearly nervous. Who wouldn't be with a million cameras in his face.  

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I like you Diana but that was not the moment to gush to your friend about the doctor working to save her husband's life

Permit me to play devil’s advocate, but maybe she was trying to lighten the mood? Of course it doesn’t come off that way, and I have a sinking sense that the show did that on purpose.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Permit me to play devil’s advocate, but maybe she was trying to lighten the mood? Of course it doesn’t come off that way, and I have a sinking sense that the show did that on purpose.

So do I.

[truthful]

This was a very naive and lost Diana in this episode. I don't know how much that was made up by Morgan to indicate how Martin Bashir was able to manipulate her, but I didn't know whether to pity her or be frustrated by her.

[dubbel zout]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I like you Diana but that was not the moment to gush to your friend about the doctor working to save her husband's life.

I don't think that happened IRL. I can see Diana making a comment about how good-looking she found Khan, but she wasn't so stupid to go on about it. Morgan does this kind of thing to make certain points. In this case, it's that Diana found Khan very appealing and might want to see him again. Just as I doubt she complained about her marriage to all and sundry, but when we see her do this it makes the point that she's desperately unhappy.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, truthful said:

I don't know how much that was made up by Morgan to indicate how Martin Bashir was able to manipulate her, but I didn't know whether to pity her or be frustrated by her.

All of it happened in real life.

[BigBlueMastiff]

ugggh, hate hate hate Diana. So self centered and absorbed, and stupid, who wouldn't do some due diligence before exposing all to the BBC? Totally on board with the queen re: di's kids. she's so desperate for attention and payback that she doesn't even think what effect this interview would have on her son's. we've already see her over share and inappropriately engage with her son's. I don't feel bad for her or her brother, they are both idiots, and it was hilarious to see how easily the BBC got over on them. Loved watching Phillips words and advice come back to bite Did in the ass. she thought she was so self righteous, great seeing the smugness wiped off her face.

[Roseanna]

On 11/14/2022 at 2:39 AM, andromeda331 said:

I like you Diana but that was not the moment to gush to your friend about the doctor working to save her husband's life.

Oh, she was just human.

On 11/14/2022 at 9:58 AM, dubbel zout said:

I don't think that happened IRL. I can see Diana making a comment about how good-looking she found Khan, but she wasn't so stupid to go on about it. Morgan does this kind of thing to make certain points. In this case, it's that Diana found Khan very appealing and might want to see him again.

The audience would have undestood her interest without any words. I am afraid that Morgan's intention wasn't kind.

Of course a woman can make an initiave, but Morgan made Diana's flirting in Kensington Palace too straightforward, one-sided and desperate.

[Lady Whistleup]

I really felt for William this episode. It couldn't have been easy being all of 13 and having a mother that dependent on you. I'm glad they had William signing the book with his left hand. William is in fact a lefty. Little detail they got right.

I also enjoyed the talk William had with his granny. QE like many people seems to have found being a granny easier than being a mother.

I also really like the juxtaposition of how sweet and natural Diana is with hospital patients with how troubled and neurotic she is in her private life.

Martin Bashir -- good lord, what scum.

[truthful]

34 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I really felt for William this episode. It couldn't have been easy being all of 13 and having a mother that dependent on you. I'm glad they had William signing the book with his left hand. William is in fact a lefty. Little detail they got right.

I also enjoyed the talk William had with his granny. QE like many people seems to have found being a granny easier than being a mother.

I also really like the juxtaposition of how sweet and natural Diana is with hospital patients with how troubled and neurotic she is in her private life.

Martin Bashir -- good lord, what scum.

Diana really seemed like a performer at heart, with the world being her stage.

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I'm glad they had William signing the book with his left hand. William is in fact a lefty. Little detail they got right.

As a lefty myself, I particularly noticed that, too! I wonder if the actor is lefthanded IRL, though William unfortunately does the claw thing. Someone didn't take the time to tell him he could turn his paper to the right. My mom made sure my teachers knew I was a lefty and to make those kinds of adjustments for me (and my older brother, although he's got a bit of the claw). It's really not that hard and doesn't take any time.

[Athena]

This thread is only for the discussion of the episode. If you would to discuss the history and after events of this episode, please use the S5 History Beyond the Eps thread or the History Talk thread. Posts have been removed.

[Inquisitionist]

On 11/10/2022 at 4:11 AM, Helena Dax said:

I'm old enough to remember this incident and while at the time I thought it was hilarious, I'm appalled by the fact that a private conversation could be published just like that, especially one that doesn't involve anything criminal.

And to make money off of it.  Makes me ill. 

On 11/10/2022 at 9:15 PM, peridot said:

She seemed very needy and melodramatic. 

I believe she was. 

One thing I keep wondering about: where was Diana's older sister during all of this?  According to this article:

Quote

Sarah and Diana remained close after Diana married Charles and became part of the royal family. Diana biographer Andrew Morton wrote that Sarah was one of the few people Diana trusted during those complicated years. Sarah was often seen with her nephews, Princes William and Harry, out and about in London, and the two sisters often brought their children on vacation together.

Sarah was 6 years older than Diana and had dated Charles.  I would hope that she had counseled her naive younger sister about what she was getting into by marrying him.  It sounds like she was supportive thereafter, so Diana wasn't as totally alone ("no family") as she says to Khan.

[LadyIrony]

As bad as Bashir was I can't believe how naïve Diana and her brother were! It all seemed way too easy and I don't see Bashir as being that intelligent. 

Was Diana really swooning over the Doctor to her friend while there to support her friend whose relative was in hospital? That seemed very crass to me but then we have seen a lot of crassness from all the Royals. 

[jeansheridan]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:05 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Permit me to play devil’s advocate, but maybe she was trying to lighten the mood? Of course it doesn’t come off that way, and I have a sinking sense that the show did that on purpose.

I think the show is just economical. The plot needs them to meet and wants to show Diana cared about her friends (or staff member...maybe both?). 

The wig does so much work for Elizabeth. When her hair is wet or pulled into a towel the resemblance really lessens. She sounds perfect however and her height! Lovely.

Wow, imagine if Oprah had gotten an interview! 

On 11/16/2022 at 2:21 PM, Inquisitionist said:

Sarah was 6 years older than Diana and had dated Charles.  I would hope that she had counseled her naive younger sister about what she was getting into by marrying him.

There's only so much a family member can do. I think the show is doing a good job of showing her paranoia wasn't unreasonable.  Buy not sure I believe the car careening around London. That seemed a bit much. Plus traveling alone so much, without security.

[Camera One]

One thing I like about this show is they do generally manage to make you feel for the character they are focusing on and uncovers some of the possible complexity of their perspective.

That "journalist" was despicable, preying on Diana's paranoia.  She just seemed so starved for attention, pity and validation.  It's sad.  But her actions and responses tended to make things worse.  Anyway, I did feel for her, but as others said, why couldn't she have spent more time with Harry.  They really make her seem completely alone, on this show.

No surprise this season, but once again, the Queen came off rather insensitive with her various descriptions of Diana to Margaret.  I liked her lunch with William, too.

That doctor seemed nice.  Calling him a frog wasn't so nice, though.  Diana looked good in that wig at the theatre.  She should have worn it when she was driving around too.

[Pallas]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Anyway, I did feel for her, but as others said, why couldn't she have spent more time with Harry.  They really make her seem completely alone, on this show.

Prince Harry was boarding at Ludgrove by 1992, when he turned 8.

[Ohiopirate02]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:04 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

I really felt for William this episode. It couldn't have been easy being all of 13 and having a mother that dependent on you. I'm glad they had William signing the book with his left hand. William is in fact a lefty. Little detail they got right.

I am half-tempted to see if any of those photos of William signing the book had him using that cheap BIC pen or did the show just use whatever pen they had lying around.  For as much as Eton costs, I would hope they gave the real William a better pen.  

[truthful]

24 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I am half-tempted to see if any of those photos of William signing the book had him using that cheap BIC pen or did the show just use whatever pen they had lying around.  For as much as Eton costs, I would hope they gave the real William a better pen.  

Not the best picture.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, truthful said:

Not the best picture.

That appears to be a better quality ballpoint befitting the 13 year old heir to the crown and not the ubiquitous BIC Cristal the show employed.  

[tennisgurl]

Martin Bashir is a real scumbag and an insult to journalism. Faking those bank accounts and transactions was so horrible, going beyond even "just" lying, and then manipulating this already lonely and isolated woman into being even more lonely and isolated, pulling the old "trust no one expect for me" line on her, praying on her vulnerability and paranoia, and all just to get an interview. He was so smug about it too, especially when he realized he could use his heritage to manipulate her, what a complete and utter piece of shit. 

Charles Spencer and Diana were terribly easy to manipulate, Bashir's lies weren't even all that good and they hardly did any other follow up beyond calling his boss, who is of course going to vouch for him. Maybe its another sign of how out of touch the elite are? They are so naïve sometimes because they feel important enough that they feel like intelligence agencies really are following them, while also not really knowing enough about the world to spot an obvious scam. Some of it with Diana is obviously just a need to be seen, she is desperate for attention and connection she'll take it from anyone, even someone who is clearly after something. 

I feel so bad for William, the queen is right that kids shouldn't have to worry about their parents. I know that Diana feels alone, but its not fair of her to put so much emotional burden on a child. Poor William and Harry, obviously caught in the middle of their parents separation, their father doesn't seem to spend much time with them and their mother needs constant emotional support and validation, its so much for kids that already have so much pressure on them. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Lady Whistleup]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I am half-tempted to see if any of those photos of William signing the book had him using that cheap BIC pen or did the show just use whatever pen they had lying around.  For as much as Eton costs, I would hope they gave the real William a better pen.  

[Peace 47]

For everyone saying that Diana and Charles Spencer were too easily duped:  I’m not so sure that I can fault them all that much, given Bashir’s actions.  If, say, Lester Holt contacted me and showed me doctored evidence that the police in my area were paying off my friends to spy on me, I think I might be suckered in by his reputation and believe what he was showing me.

And with Diana, when the evidence shows that the people she would go to with security concerns (the security services) cannot be trusted, how would she really have means to verify the work of the BBC, a trusted news institution?  I mean, she could have had her sister hire a PI or something, but it’s not crazy to me that she was drawn in to Bashir’s lies.  How does Martin Bashir live with himself?  SMH.

[Scarlett45]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:46 AM, Spartan Girl said:

They were cute. But the line about “just looking for a frog to make me happy” was kind of cringey. I agree with the sentiment, but it could have been worded a little differently.

Diana’s near accident was scary. No wonder she was spooked and susceptible to a creep like Bashir. 

I didn’t quite mind it in the context of the exchange. Especially since the Dr began the “what do you see in me? I’m just an average, social awkward, slightly over weight alcoholic Dr?”(paraphrasing) Diana was saying she didn’t care about all that, she had a Prince “literally and figuratively”, that didn’t mean she was happy with him. Also the entire “kissing a princess turns a frog into a Prince” from the fairytales. I think it was fine given the comfort and intimacy they had established (they were headed to bed, not as if she said that during their third conversation!)