S01.E08: A Queen is Made

[Pop Tart]

Quote

The planned kidnapping of King Francis goes awry but Catherine devises a new plan to allow her control of the country.

Airdate: 10.30.22

[greekmom]

Mary sounded more like bloody Mary than Mary Queen of Scot. Was she that stupid in real life?
Sadly, the build up was better than the ending. It kind of fell flat to me. 
Rahima turned out to be smarter than Catherine gave her credit for.
Shocked that Montmorcency gave Catherine the regency especially when she tried to have him killed. 
Also surprised that they showed Mahitla at the end and Diane de P. 
I guess they are gunning for a season 2?

[brisbydog]

30 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Mary sounded more like bloody Mary than Mary Queen of Scot. Was she that stupid in real life?
Sadly, the build up was better than the ending. It kind of fell flat to me. 
Rahima turned out to be smarter than Catherine gave her credit for.
Shocked that Montmorcency gave Catherine the regency especially when she tried to have him killed. 
Also surprised that they showed Mahitla at the end and Diane de P. 
I guess they are gunning for a season 2?

It has been renewed for a second season.

[AntFTW]

Great episode!

5 hours ago, greekmom said:

Shocked that Montmorcency gave Catherine the regency especially when she tried to have him killed. 

So was I.

Catherine gaining the regency was expected but how she gained it was unexpected.

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

Mary sounded more like bloody Mary than Mary Queen of Scot. Was she that stupid in real life?

I have the same question. Did she have as much control over France as portrayed in the show?

[PinkRibbons]

This series started out great but really fudged the landing. It just...didn't happen that way. And Catherine deserves to have her actual story told, not some weird fantasy that ends with her receiving her win by getting it gifted to her by a man. Honestly I'm very salty that this was renewed and Becoming Elizabeth was canceled.

As to the question of Mary's stupidity...kind of a tricky answer but yes and no. She was highly intelligent in terms of book-learning, but absolute shit as a ruler and worse at intrigue. She had no idea what she was doing. She was not the zealot shown here and for most of Francis's reign her uncles completely controlled the couple, and not the other way around. The Guises essentially ruled. Most of the series showed how little real power Catherine seems to have had throughout her own marriage despite the ten kids, and Mary was in the same position (although Francis did take her advice. It's just that being fairly young she just parroted what her uncles told her.)

The Rahima plot seemed ridiculously circuitous and unnecessary. Rahima easily could have been clued in on what Catherine wanted her to do and not risk anything by trying to dupe her. Also again, the whole reason for her plot was ridiculous. IRL Mary stayed long enough that there was it was clear that she wasn't pregnant with Francis's child, and then she went home. (The show did seem to touch on what some historians believe - that Mary and Francis never consummated their marriage. The thing is if that's true, that was probably because Francis was considered too delicate to risk dying from literally overdoing it. The show makes it seem like Mary was too religious to be able to face sex when in fact, she had a talent for falling is lust with the worst guys.)

[Carolina Girl]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Did she have as much control over France as portrayed in the show?

Historically, no.  

Catherine had her booted back to Scotland the minute it was determined she wasn't pregnant (one historian put it as "she preferred the Queen of Scots room to her company").  And Scotland had a firm hold on the reformation as home to the Presbyterian Church and its misongynist leader John Knox.  

Of course, the less said about her disastrous reign in Scotland the better.  

[anoninrva]

9 hours ago, WatcherUatl10 said:

I think that having Rahima "tell the story" this week was the same sort of trickery as having Mary doing the same last week. Even with Catherine's tales she was shown to be privy to incidents that did not involve he, and could at best be explained as speculation. That also might be how the show explains historical figures acting in ways that do not fit the record.

  Catherine, as usual, was all over the place, and power ended up more or less falling into her lap, not because of anything she planned out and implemented. Except maybe the forged letter from Liz. That was a smart move, and did rely upon Catherine having chosen well in Rahima.

I'm far too literal for that, but it makes me skeptical about any event in this show when there's an obvious frame and inobvious transitions.  Was the entire show from her perspective?  This takes me away from the story more than the intentional fourth wall breaks when they talk directly into the camera.

[andromeda331]

Yeah, the crazy fanatic Mary was not how she was in real life. She was terrible in this episode. Also really dumb to believe that Elizabeth would ever lift a finger to help her. I kept waiting for someone to point that out to her although I doubt she would listen. Mary, you've just spent two episodes ranting about Protestants and uniting everyone in Europe under the true faith and had recently thought to attack England, what would make you think she would help you? Then again she did flee to England in IRL decades later thinking that her Protestant cousin would lift a finger to help her. If only she learned more from Catherine she might have kept her throne.

Damn Catherine, she was ruth less and finally got the power she should have had all along.

[Carolina Girl]

And I'm sorry but that scene of Mary walking in what I must assume is Holyrood Castle in Scotland and telling some random guard that "the queen has come home."  Yeah, because this guy gives a shit.

Uh, what did she do - hoof it from the beach with the Marys when the skiff brought her ashore?  No one waiting to escort her?  Not the Lords of the Congregation?  

And I'm pretty sure Rando the Guard hasn't got the foggiest idea what Elizabeth thinks of Mary and even if he did, I'm willing to bet he wouldn't speak to the effing QUEEN that way.   I can only assume this was for comic relief.  

[tennisgurl]

I know that this show has never been all that interested in historical accuracy, but while they were at least getting the broad strokes right in the first half, they went completely off the rails in the back half. Its really too bad, because the real life of Catherine and of this time period really is very interesting and worthy of a TV show, they didn't have to add a bunch of ridiculous extra drama to the whole thing, the actual story was dramatic enough. I enjoyed the final episode for what it was, but I wish that we were getting more. Especially with Catherine's ascent to power, I feel like the show is telling us that Catherine is such a bad bitch instead of showing us. In her time she really was considered one of the most powerful people in Europe, a never "technically" being a prime ruler, but we don't really see much of that power, how she got it and wielded it.

Mary in real life was certainly not the crazy eyed fanatic she is portrayed as here, although her naiveite does seem pretty true to life. She wasn't exactly stupid, she was very book smart, but she was lousy at court intrigue, especially surrounded by power players like Catherine, and she never knew when to quit while she was ahead. In the show and in real life she overestimated her own importance and power and that is more or less what led to her death.

Catherine's plot with Rahima was pretty convoluted but I did like her getting to be the one breaking the forth wall at the end. 

[Carolina Girl]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:29 AM, tennisgurl said:

She wasn't exactly stupid, she was very book smart, but she was lousy at court intrigue, especially surrounded by power players like Catherine

I've often wondered if her inability to go toe-to-toe with de Medici empowered Elizabeth to manipulate her as she did.  Interesting that later on, Elizabeth engaged in marriage negotiations with Catherine over the possibility of marrying her youngest son (also called Francis), the Duke of Anjou and Alencon.  If you ever get a chance, watch "Shadow in the Sun" episode from Elizabeth R for a great protrayal of de Medici by Margaretta Scott.  

I have no sympathy for Mary and her troubles - she got there by her own road, starting with maintaining that she was the true Queen of England after the death of Mary I, going to far as to take audiences on a makeshift throne with the cloth of state of ENGLAND over her head.  Yeah, that's not going to make a huge friend out of the redhead across the channel.  

Edited November 3, 2022 by Carolina Girl
Left off the end of my sentence.

[bluestocking]

On 11/2/2022 at 11:29 AM, tennisgurl said:

I know that this show has never been all that interested in historical accuracy, but while they were at least getting the broad strokes right in the first half, they went completely off the rails in the back half. Its really too bad, because the real life of Catherine and of this time period really is very interesting and worthy of a TV show, they didn't have to add a bunch of ridiculous extra drama to the whole thing, the actual story was dramatic enough. 

Totally agree with this.  It was just not credible that Catherine would try to kill Montmorency TWICE and he would react by saying--You go girl - You be the ruler of France!  

And having Mary go to the dungeon and get goaded into cutting off Louis' finger - royalty would never sully themselves.  Lots of henchmen to do their dirty work.  

Happy to see Charles IX at last--has he been in any episode before?  We haven't seen Margot yet either iirc.  

[andromeda331]

On 11/3/2022 at 10:15 AM, Carolina Girl said:

I've often wondered if her inability to go toe-to-toe with de Medici empowered Elizabeth to manipulate her as she did.  Interesting that later on, Elizabeth engaged in marriage negotiations with Catherine over the possibility of marrying her youngest son (also called Francis), the Duke of Anjou and Alencon.  If you ever get a chance, watch "Shadow in the Sun" episode from Elizabeth R for a great protrayal of de Medici by Margaretta Scott.  

I have no sympathy for Mary and her troubles - she got there by her own road, starting with maintaining that she was the true Queen of England after the death of Mary I, going to far as to take audiences on a makeshift throne with the cloth of state of ENGLAND over her head.  Yeah, that's not going to make a huge friend out of the redhead across the channel.  

Mary really learned nothing from Catherine which was great for Elizabeth. Though you pointing out that Elizabeth did consider marrying Catherine's son for a moment made me wonder what would have happened if Elizabeth had a child with all of her smarts and Catherine's.  

On 11/2/2022 at 9:29 AM, tennisgurl said:

I know that this show has never been all that interested in historical accuracy, but while they were at least getting the broad strokes right in the first half, they went completely off the rails in the back half. Its really too bad, because the real life of Catherine and of this time period really is very interesting and worthy of a TV show, they didn't have to add a bunch of ridiculous extra drama to the whole thing, the actual story was dramatic enough. I enjoyed the final episode for what it was, but I wish that we were getting more. Especially with Catherine's ascent to power, I feel like the show is telling us that Catherine is such a bad bitch instead of showing us. In her time she really was considered one of the most powerful people in Europe, a never "technically" being a prime ruler, but we don't really see much of that power, how she got it and wielded it.

Mary in real life was certainly not the crazy eyed fanatic she is portrayed as here, although her naiveite does seem pretty true to life. She wasn't exactly stupid, she was very book smart, but she was lousy at court intrigue, especially surrounded by power players like Catherine, and she never knew when to quit while she was ahead. In the show and in real life she overestimated her own importance and power and that is more or less what led to her death.

Catherine's plot with Rahima was pretty convoluted but I did like her getting to be the one breaking the forth wall at the end. 

They really are. We keep getting told Catherine is terrible but their not showing us.  Also the ones who are saying she's terrible are hardly people who would be subjective. All of court looked down at her because she's a "commoner" which of course isn't true. Everyone els crap or dismissed her because she had no power thanks to Henri and Diane, despite the fact Catherine had been proven right because many times she treated her like Mary's a perfect example she treated Catherine like crap, dragged her son around telling him want to do, dimissed Catherine's advice which was correct and flaunted her power to her. But the has the nerve to be shocked when she realizes Catherine played her. Really Mary? Imagine that! 

On 11/5/2022 at 6:44 PM, bluestocking said:

Totally agree with this.  It was just not credible that Catherine would try to kill Montmorency TWICE and he would react by saying--You go girl - You be the ruler of France!  

And having Mary go to the dungeon and get goaded into cutting off Louis' finger - royalty would never sully themselves.  Lots of henchmen to do their dirty work.  

Happy to see Charles IX at last--has he been in any episode before?  We haven't seen Margot yet either iirc.  

Charles IX has been seen before I think in the first episode. 

[Carolina Girl]

23 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Though you pointing out that Elizabeth did consider marrying Catherine's son for a moment made me wonder what would have happened if Elizabeth had a child with all of her smarts and Catherine's.  

No James I which would have meant no English Civil War, no George III - certainly would make Bridgerton a different story completely.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

No James I which would have meant no English Civil War, no George III - certainly would make Bridgerton a different story completely.

Yes, it would.

[Scarlett45]

I have to say I thought the season ended on a high point! This was one of the stronger episodes. Samantha Morton is doing a good job with Catherine’s quieter moments, but I’ve said it 1000x, what’s motivating everyone else???