S02.E03: Bull Elephants

[carrps]

26 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

Most of the time she just looks poorly dressed for the setting.

Yes, I'm surprised Tanya hasn't noticed. 

Bwahahaaaa. Of course, Tanya hasn't noticed. But Portia's pretty down market looking for such a ritzy place. I barely dress that casually to walk the dog.

[aghst]

Episode is called bull elephants, referring to what Daphne learned when she went on safari and learned of the social or asocial lives of male elephants, while the females and baby elephants lived joyfully in pod.

Dominic gives Lucia and Mia 3000 Euros but then tells them he can't see them any more.  So Lucia wants to find another rich guy because she's spending money as soon as she gets any.

Dominic the feminist though starts looking at every woman in the restaurant not long after he blows off Lucia.

Harper tries to spice up their love life but Ethan isn't interested.  He isn't interested in Mia either, maybe just the porn on his laptop.  Though in the previous episode, he ran by Lucia and then came home aroused, which made him open his laptop.

Maybe they could spend some of that money on sex counseling.  Instead Cameron turns out to be some kind of wealth manager so he's trying to rope Ethan into "investing" with him which involves hefty management fees for inferior returns than index funds.

Portia has put Albie in the friend zone.  She says he doesn't get her heart rate up.  She should just tell him she wants to be friends but she doesn't want to be stuck on her own?  Instead she wants the pool guy with the sensitive nips?

Greg leaving for two days is bullshit.  It's about 30 minutes to an hour to get to the nearest airport to Taormina, then probably have to fly to Rome or Milan and take an international flight there.  If Greg goes back to the west coast since Tanya is from San Francisco, that's about 15 hours if not more.  So over a day just to fly back to the US and then fly back to Sicily.  What's he going to do, go to the US and turn around and fly back after like 8-10 hours?

Valentina does look like a forlorn figure but her open contempt for Tanya is something in the service industry.

[Samsnee]

16 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I think Albie was gentle with his grandfather. It was a mild criticism at best and a fair one. Gender roles are constructs. But despite being annoyed with his dad he came on this trip and speaks kindly with his grandfather. He's not on his phone, he listens to the stories. He stayed with him through some of the farting after the fall. He's a good man.

I am actually enjoying the different kinds of masculinity on display in this season. I lean toward Albie and Ethan. 

That scene when Harper was circled was effing creepy. Like the old Elizabeth Taylor film...Suddenly, Last Summer. Shudder. White bathing suit and cannibalism. 

I find trying to apply modern expectations of gender to movies that are 40 years old a useless endeavor. People who do that are looking to provoke or create a debate just to be seen as right. 

[nb360]

16 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

I also think Cameron is after Ethan’s money, especially after Daphne’s comment to Harper that his coworkers all have dark triad traits.

I got this sense as well. Part of me wondered if both Cameron and Daphne were doing something (together) to blackmail Ethan and Harper...

Wasn't Cameron the one who "invited" them on this trip?

[nb360]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Given that Tanya wanted to reenact Monica Vitti film adventures in the previous episode, I guess this is the Female Gaze version of what Albie was dissing?

It's curious that Tanya wanted to be like Monica Vitti, because this scene and Harper's version both suggest a woman who is prey for a male predator.

[DrSpaceman73]

17 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Harper trying to be fun was hilarious.  Just on the right side of dry. And to her credit Daphne saw through it. 

I think Daphne's approach to dealing with her husband is a practical one. She has small children, a lifestyle she likes, and husband she seems to mostly enjoy. I appreciate her directness with Harper about it. It wouldn't be my choice but I also can't afford to rent a palazzo on the spur of the moment just to mess with my husband a bit. Heh.

My guess is they can't afford it either and their wealth is a facade of bad credit all over the place but I get what you mean. 

I felt bad for Ethan. I've been in that spot. I'm not cheating on my wife in any fashion no matter what happens. And some people are just oblivious to that. 

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm just glad Ethan didn't cheat because I want to like him. And I want things to work out with him and Harper. 

I, too, noticed how handsy Cameron was with Ethan but I'm not sure if it means anything.

I'm curious to know what about Season 1 you found comedic. I sincerely have no idea why people kept saying it was "funny." Every story was tragic and depressing. I don't know that White Lotus is meant to be a comedy or even a dramedy. 

My god this is such a pet peeve of mine and I agree with you. This is part of what confused me about season one when i first watched it. I tuned in expecting a comedy and it just wasn't.  I hate that ever drama tries so often to label itself a dramedy when it doesn't apply.  Just having a few jokes or funny elements doesn't make it a comedy.   I've long thought this about many other shows. They are like 90% drama and 10% maybe comedy and get labeled a dark comedy or dramedy, win awards as a comedy.  

This is a drama season one and two. 

That was really bad blubbering acting by Tanya this episode too.  

[shapeshifter]

44 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

I din't think Valentina is defying any stereotypes.  Her elegant suits aren't masculine looking, and her heels, hair, and makeup are thoroughly feminine.  Too me she presents as a professional woman.

Yes. Valentina's suits serve a slightly different purpose.
The one thing that struck me about Valentina in this episode (prior to the feral kitten feeding) was when the guy tried to strike up a conversation, she responds with: "This happens every morning. Some guy asks me my name and stares at my tits. I want my coffee in peace."
Valentina is dressed how I used to dress for work to avoid getting "stares at my tits," that is, with a woven, buttoned-up blouse and a blazer. 
But what wasn't clear to me was the guy's intention. Was he trying to catch her eye or stare at her boobs or both?
I guess it doesn't matter. We just learn that Valentina is not seeking companionship. 
Again, based upon my past work experience that involved hours at a library reference desk not so different than her concierge desk, she just doesn't have any social bandwidth left to spare. 
And, even if the guy was not trying to see her breasts, if he was trying to strike up a friendship, it would be toward an end she does not seek.
The kitten scene reinforces this, but I think the morning coffee scene is more subtle and more on point. 
The kitten scene just seems a little pathetic. More like eating lunch under the high school stairs because the mean girls don't want to talk to you.

[DrSpaceman73]

The godfather I and II are both great movies.  When it's on TV I can't stop watching.  It's about as near perfect as films can get. Writing acting scenery story. All of it. The scene in godfather II where Michael's ex shows up to see the kids and he finds them in the kitchen before she leaves. Pacino says nothing the whole scene but perfectly portrays the depression, anger and despair he feels at the same time. 

GF III is awful.

[jeansheridan]

46 minutes ago, Samsnee said:

I find trying to apply modern expectations of gender to movies that are 40 years old a useless endeavor.

I agree about acting styles. Cary Grant seems highly stylized now. But I think it is fair to point out the casual racism of a John Hughes film or sexism in older movies. We should study the evolution of such things in our art. Mickey Rooney's yellow face performance is a blight on Breakfast at Tiffany's which otherwise is a very compelling film.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, SHD said:

After seeing this week’s episode, I really wish Tanya and her husband would’ve driven that Vespa right off the cliff last week.

Hey, the season's still young!

 

24 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

That was really bad blubbering acting by Tanya this episode too.  

Tanya's blubbering sounded authentic but appeared fake due to Botox——which I think is supposed to be Tanya's Botox, rather than Jennifer Coolidge's Botox. I saw a recent interview with Coolidge in which her face was not so smooth and unlined, and appeared more naturally aged.

But, yeah, if the intent was to show Botoxed Tanya trying to cry, it didn't work so well on screen.

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

My impression was more that Michael Imperioli's character was just a lot more experienced in dealing with prostitutes. 

Cameron telling Ethan, 'that's why it's safer to stick with whores,' suggested to me he's not inexperienced in dealing with prostitutes.

I am shocked every week by how much better this season is than season 1. I'm really glad I came back even after feeling like I completely wasted my time with season 1.

[carrps]

16 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

We should study the evolution of such things in our art. Mickey Rooney's yellow face performance is a blight on Breakfast at Tiffany's which otherwise is a very compelling film.

I'll concur with the blight that is Mickey Rooney's performance in that movie, but the novella was so much more compelling than the film. The movie softened it a lot.

[buttersister]

Quote

anya's blubbering sounded authentic but appeared fake due to Botox——which I think is supposed to be Tanya's Botox, rather than Jennifer Coolidge's Botox. I saw a recent interview with Coolidge in which her face was not so smooth and unlined, and appeared more naturally aged.

But, yeah, if the intent was to show Botoxed Tanya trying to cry, it didn't work so well on screen.

Ok, thanks, that makes more sense. I'm watching thinking that Coolidge got an Emmy for this role and this is not working. 

ETA: I'm a Valentina fan. Love her wardrobe, attitude and Lunch with Cats. I'm not a cat person, but if I had to cater to all those weirdos, I'd want a quiet lunch with cats, too. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by buttersister

[SoWindsor]

I get this is a drama and meant to entertain but it’s so unrealistic to go on a vacation and have 2 men want to hook up with you (Portia).

I started at home ketamine and last week’s episode was so relaxing while watching it after taking the ketamine. Last night’s episode was unsettling. I realized I should only watch happy positive things.

I am beyond obsessed with the location and scenery. It’s spectacular!

[overtherainbow]

59 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

I get this is a drama and meant to entertain but it’s so unrealistic to go on a vacation and have 2 men want to hook up with you (Portia).

Especially one who wears weird grandma clothes.

Why do I feel like Portia will end up with the other guy and use Albie. She seemed bored with him yet mildly tolerated him because it was a break from having to deal with Tanya, suddenly she's making out with him? I don't buy it. She kept glancing at other guy the whole time.

Cameron is definitely dangerous.

[divsc]

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm just glad Ethan didn't cheat because I want to like him. And I want things to work out with him and Harper. 

I, too, noticed how handsy Cameron was with Ethan but I'm not sure if it means anything.

I'm curious to know what about Season 1 you found comedic. I sincerely have no idea why people kept saying it was "funny." Every story was tragic and depressing. I don't know that White Lotus is meant to be a comedy or even a dramedy. 

I thought Armand's evil genius to put Shane on the boat for his romantic dinner date that Tonya had chartered to scatter her mother's ashes in the ocean was pretty good dark comedy. And Molly Shannon's character as Shane's mother was pretty amusing to me even thought she was awful, she was so on point. But overall, each story was pretty depressing.

9 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Ditto. But speculation is fun. White seems much more interested in father/son relationships and nuances between men then crime plots.

Yeah season one was sort of misleading regarding the dead body and "crime." I don't know if it's because I binged season one, but I never felt much suspense. I can't tell if this season feels insanely suspenseful because we have to wait each week for a new episode. That we look obsessively for clues, dropped breadcrumbs. What little piece of info will be relevant later. Is there more to these characters that we are first led to believe? I guess time will tell. I do get the sense season 2 is meant to be more of a mystery, from not knowing who Greg was on the phone with or what he's hiding from Tonya, not knowing what Dom did before the trip, to why Ethan won't have sex with his wife.... there feels like a lot more suspense than just character development.

[tennisgurl]

The locations are just so gorgeous, if nothing else this does certainly make me want to visit Italy again, as long as I don't have to hang out with most of these people. Its truly amazing how people in actual paradise can still somehow make themselves miserable. 

I actually think that Tanya managed to give Portia a tiny bit of good advice in a rare moment of lucidity when she told told Portia not to spend her life chasing emotionally unavailable men after Portia complained about how Albie doesn't get her heart rate going. At first I thought that Albie might have been showing off for Portia when he started talking about how the Godfather is a male fantasy and about how gender is a construct, but I think it was more about trying to, in a round about way, reprimand his dad and grandpa, especially his dad. Albie mostly just seems to find his grandpa to be more harmlessly embarrassing, a charming relic of a bygone era, but his dad's affairs actually hurt him and his dad making excuses just makes him feel worse. 

I'm glad that I'm not the only one picking up a weirdly charged sexual vibe between Cameron and Ethan, I definitely do not think that Cameron "just" invited Ethan and Harper here to hang out with an old college buddy. Not surprising that Daphne and Cameron's seemingly perfect marriage isn't exactly perfect, Cameron is the kind of asshole who insists that any real man cheats on his wife as much as he can while Daphne just ignored his affairs while playing mind games with him, but I am still not quite sure what their deal really is. Daphne clearly has more going on than just being a vapid ditzy rich woman, she sounded very intelligent and thoughtful when she took her edibles and she at times gets this very interestingly dark energy. She's got a real manipulative streak, and interest in violence, and just has these brief moments of intensity when she isn't giggling, she's probably my biggest suspect in "who put the corpses in the ocean"? 

I was trying to figure out why that scene where every man on the streets starts starring at Harper seemed familiar, but previous posters jogged my memory! L'Avventura is such an interesting movie, I am hoping for more Italian film references coming up.

Awww Valentina and her kitties. was her co-worker trying to flirt with her when she came over to compliment her? She seemed to have pretty big heart eyes when she talked to her. 

[Irlandesa]

13 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I don’t think I like Portia. She is probably making a great salary, has plenty of time to hang out with Albie and his family and she seems really annoyed when Tanya expects her to do something. I could easily sit on a couch and read a book if I were being paid, were in Sicily and could go hang by the pool and have free time later.

Have we seen anything to suggest that Tanya pays well?  Assistant roles are usually underpaid and I could see Tanya assume doing things like taking her to Italy offsets needing to pay her a higher salary.  But then she tells her she's supposed to stay in her room and hide from Greg.  The only reason Portia is doing those cool things is because she's violating what Tanya asked her to do.  I don't blame her but Tanya is not a reasonable woman. 

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I agree about acting styles. Cary Grant seems highly stylized now. But I think it is fair to point out the casual racism of a John Hughes film or sexism in older movies. We should study the evolution of such things in our art.

Right.  I turn into Albie whenever someone tires to wax poetic about The Breakfast Club which I hated for how it sympathizes with a kid who sexually harasses another throughout the movie.    But I do it with conviction.  I definitely got the sense that Albie was trying to score points by saying something Portia would approve of.  I think he glanced over at her during his speech.  She obviously couldn't care less about someone choosing The Godfather as their favorite movie.  However, it makes me suspicious of him as I am when I think I'm encountering performative feminism in men--feminism that only lasts as long as it gets them what they think it should get them.  That's why I'm uneasy to see where Albie goes.

4 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

I get this is a drama and meant to entertain but it’s so unrealistic to go on a vacation and have 2 men want to hook up with you (Portia).

She's a pretty, blonde 20-something.  I don't think that's a stretch at all, especially not in Italy where even the older blonde, Tanya, could probably fill her bed with a different gentleman every night. 

[jeansheridan]

13 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

5 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

I get this is a drama and meant to entertain but it’s so unrealistic to go on a vacation and have 2 men want to hook up with you (Portia).

She's a pretty, blonde 20-something.  I don't think that's a stretch at all, especially not in Italy where even the older blonde, Tanya, could probably fill her bed with a different gentleman every night. 

I agree. She's a bit low energy but pretty. Albie has been "courting" her but she seemed to prefer nips dude. So in theory she could have both dudes if so inclined. I don't think twentysomething guys on vacation are all that hard to convince. 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

Have we seen anything to suggest that Tanya pays well? 

We saw her leave Natasha a huge tip at the end of last season. I know some people thought Tanya was being a jerk since she had told Natasha that she wanted to open a spa together and then reneged, but I don't think Natasha was in any way entitled to an investment from Tanya, so, at face value, the tip was very generous. Maybe she'll also give Portia a tip at the end of this season (if both of them are still alive).

[JD5166]

I think you are all underestimating how much money personal assistants get paid. You’d have to pay anyone with experience a LOT to put up with their bullshit. Of course Portia may not have known what she was getting into (I.e. no experience.) Tanya’s not famous, there would have to be some kind of bragging rights there and not just a trip to Italy. Portia isn’t awful but she does seem like an entitled millennial; the anxiety, the depression, the whining about where she is even though all she has to do is quit, and frankly, making herself seen even though Tonya didn’t want her to-it would suck but if I was getting paid and my boss told me to stay unseen, I’d do it. (Sorry run on sentence!) I think Tanya could probably convince anyone of anything if she threw enough money at them, I bet Portia is getting paid plenty. 

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, JD5166 said:

I think you are all underestimating how much money personal assistants get paid. You’d have to pay anyone with experience a LOT to put up with their bullshit. Of course Portia may not have known what she was getting into (I.e. no experience.) Tanya’s not famous, there would have to be some kind of bragging rights there and not just a trip to Italy. Portia isn’t awful but she does seem like an entitled millennial; the anxiety, the depression, the whining about where she is even though all she has to do is quit, and frankly, making herself seen even though Tonya didn’t want her to-it would suck but if I was getting paid and my boss told me to stay unseen, I’d do it. (Sorry run on sentence!) I think Tanya could probably convince anyone of anything if she threw enough money at them, I bet Portia is getting paid plenty. 

It’s my understanding also that such assistants get paid very well, but they have to put up with horrible conditions and sign NDAs. The people who seek out those jobs know that they pay well. They wouldn’t accept minimum wage. 

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/14/2022 at 12:48 AM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I think Cameron and Daphne purposely split the two up so that Cameron could work on Ethan. 

Daphne being a "co-conspirator" is an interesting thought that I will have to contemplate! It makes sense with what we already know about her, which is that she is very clear-eyed about what she wants and needs and has no compunctions about doing what she needs to do to get it. 

[Milburn Stone]

23 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

The creepy scene where men in the town surrounded Harper, it's a reference to this movie - L'Avventura (1960).

Wow--thank you.

One interesting thing to me about Mike White's recreation is how (at least for me) the tone is completely different despite basically every shot being identical. The cinematic power of context. In the episode, I received it as a comedic commentary on Italian culture. In the clip, I perceive--and feel!--the character's fear and (all too justified) paranoia. 

[luna1122again]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The kitten scene just seems a little pathetic. More like eating lunch under the high school stairs because the mean girls don't want to talk to you.

It doesn't strike me as pathetic at all, but sweet. But I'd always rather eat lunch with kittens than most people. Plus...she's kind of the mean girl here. She chooses not to eat with others, not the other way around. 

12 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

I get this is a drama and meant to entertain but it’s so unrealistic to go on a vacation and have 2 men want to hook up with you (Portia).

I really don't think it is. Young pretty women on vacation pretty much have their pick of men, if they want them. (Speaking as someone who used to be one.)

I hate mob movies. 

[Haleth]

On 11/14/2022 at 12:18 AM, Irlandesa said:

Yeah.  In fact, when he and Ethan were heading right at one another on their jet skis, I wondered if there'd be a crash in the final episode. 

Omigosh, I hope Ethan isn't killed because of Cameron's competitive bullshit.

On 11/14/2022 at 1:48 AM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I think Cameron and Daphne purposely split the two up so that Cameron could work on Ethan.

I think so too.  Their argument at breakfast about the palazzo vs jet skis seemed too scripted.  It sounded to me like it was a set up to separate Ethan from Harper.  Daphne may have spoken a lot of truth though; she may not consider herself a victim and looks the other way when Cameron acts like a naughty boy, but she is far from the clueless innocent she appeared to be in the first couple episodes.

I don't get Portia.  She's looking for a caveman and Albie isn't aggressive enough for her, yet she's passively following Tanya's orders.  And she's continuing to give mixed messages to a guy she isn't interested in.  The most assertive thing she's said is that she needs a new job.

[EtheltoTillie]

Ethan and Harper are wearing such bad wigs it’s driving me batty. 

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

Daphne being a "co-conspirator" is an interesting thought that I will have to contemplate! It makes sense with what we already know about her, which is that she is very clear-eyed about what she wants and needs and has no compunctions about doing what she needs to do to get it. 

Both Daphne and Cam quickly offered up drugs and or booze to their victims and put them in a situation where they could potentially do something that could be used against them, (Harper and Daphne in the pool and those guys randomly standing around, for a private villa that they are the only guests what was with those guys?), Cam got the girls, drugs and booze in to Ethan's room, (frankly I'd be pissed if my buddy was having sex with a hooker on the sofa in my room), Cam probably gets a lot of business done when he has blackmail material on his marks.

[RedDelicious]

12 hours ago, overtherainbow said:

Especially one who wears weird grandma clothes.

I totally do not get the trend of weird grandma clothes and dad sandals. Especially dad sandals. I can’t believe people pay lots of money for the Hermes and Chanel versions. They’re just so unattractive.

[Baltimore Betty]

Just now, RedDelicious said:

I totally do not get the trend of weird grandma clothes and dad sandals. Especially dad sandals. I can’t believe people pay lots of money for the Hermes and Chanel versions. They’re just so unattractive.

The clunky shoe on stubby legs, ugh so bad.  The potholder clothing needs to go too.

[EtheltoTillie]

Not only do we get a Monica Vitti homage, we have a lot of Godfather references. There are orange things all around. The drinks, the Jetskis, Ethan’s shirt. I love stuff like this. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by EtheltoTillie

[Milburn Stone]

42 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Both Daphne and Cam quickly offered up drugs and or booze to their victims and put them in a situation where they could potentially do something that could be used against them, (Harper and Daphne in the pool and those guys randomly standing around, for a private villa that they are the only guests what was with those guys?), Cam got the girls, drugs and booze in to Ethan's room, (frankly I'd be pissed if my buddy was having sex with a hooker on the sofa in my room), Cam probably gets a lot of business done when he has blackmail material on his marks.

As of now, I feel like there's a difference in Daphne's and Cam's personalities. I sense desperation in Cam, and more like cool calculation in Daphne. She may be Lady Macbeth to Cam's Macbeth.

[questionfear]

23 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Daphne mentioned that they are like Bernie Madoff.  So, I am thinking like con-men.

Madoff also ran a ponzi scheme, and that's my theory on Cam. He's managing money but got himself tied up in a ponzi scheme, and he's mad Ethan didn't tip him off because if he'd been able to take advantage of Ethan selling his company, Cam could have unwound some of his ponzi scheme with the windfall. Something about how he was talking like Ethan should have tipped him off, followed by the immediate pitch to manage some of Ethan's money, made me think that. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

One interesting thing to me about Mike White's recreation is how (at least for me) the tone is completely different despite basically every shot being identical. The cinematic power of context. 

I wonder why MW chose Harper for that recreation, not Tanya - the Monica Vitti wannabe.

1 hour ago, luna1122again said:

It doesn't strike me as pathetic at all, but sweet. But I'd always rather eat lunch with kittens than most people. Plus...she's kind of the mean girl here. She chooses not to eat with others, not the other way around. 

Valentina’s lunch date with kittens is relatable. She needs to deal with people’s behaviors during working hours, so she treats her lunch time as an escapism from all the craziness. That scene does humanize her a bit.

9 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I agree. She's a bit low energy but pretty. Albie has been "courting" her but she seemed to prefer nips dude. So in theory she could have both dudes if so inclined. I don't think twentysomething guys on vacation are all that hard to convince. 

If she hooks up with that S-nips guy, she will definitely complain about him later. Portia is like Tanya 2.0 with less money - queen of whining. Both annoying.

Am waiting for Portia to suggest to Albie re a threesome with S-nips guy since Albie is so woke and aggressive. 😆

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Ethan and Harper are wearing such bad wigs it’s driving me batty. 

Ehh, I thought that’s their natural hair.

Will Sharpe does have that messy, out-of-bed hairstyle.

[overtherainbow]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I actually think that Tanya managed to give Portia a tiny bit of good advice in a rare moment of lucidity when she told told Portia not to spend her life chasing emotionally unavailable men after Portia complained about how Albie doesn't get her heart rate going. At first I thought that Albie might have been showing off for Portia when he started talking about how the Godfather is a male fantasy and about how gender is a construct, but I think it was more about trying to, in a round about way, reprimand his dad and grandpa, especially his dad. Albie mostly just seems to find his grandpa to be more harmlessly embarrassing, a charming relic of a bygone era, but his dad's affairs actually hurt him and his dad making excuses just makes him feel worse. 

I'm glad that I'm not the only one picking up a weirdly charged sexual vibe between Cameron and Ethan, I definitely do not think that Cameron "just" invited Ethan and Harper here to hang out with an old college buddy. Not surprising that Daphne and Cameron's seemingly perfect marriage isn't exactly perfect, Cameron is the kind of asshole who insists that any real man cheats on his wife as much as he can while Daphne just ignored his affairs while playing mind games with him, but I am still not quite sure what their deal really is. Daphne clearly has more going on than just being a vapid ditzy rich woman, she sounded very intelligent and thoughtful when she took her edibles and she at times gets this very interestingly dark energy. She's got a real manipulative streak, and interest in violence, and just has these brief moments of intensity when she isn't giggling, she's probably my biggest suspect in "who put the corpses in the ocean"? 

I do feel for Albie somewhat, even if I was rolling my eyes a bit at his little Godfather spiel. His dad is the perfect example for him of how not to treat women. He's also purposely putting him between his parents and wanting him to liaison between them because he so badly screwed up already. It's unfair of him to put his son in that position. 

Cameron is a manipulator and I believe he's using Ethan. Perhaps he sees him as an easy victim. It appears the purpose of the trip was to get at some of the money he's made, but something fishy is definitely going on. I wouldn't be surprised if he and Daphne planned it that way to separate Harper and Ethan. 

[peachmangosteen]

16 minutes ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

Ehh, I thought that’s their natural hair.

Yea, same. Aubrey Plaza’s hair has always been like that so I don’t have any reason to think she’s suddenly wearing a wig. 

[heatherchandler]

15 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

I get this is a drama and meant to entertain but it’s so unrealistic to go on a vacation and have 2 men want to hook up with you (Portia).

It is very realistic.  Like @luna1122again as a former young pretty woman, I used to have fend them off on vacation.  I always had a lot of fun on vacay.

18 hours ago, Samsnee said:

I find trying to apply modern expectations of gender to movies that are 40 years old a useless endeavor. People who do that are looking to provoke or create a debate just to be seen as right. 

Agree!  Unless someone is researching for a class or something, I don't see the need to pick movies apart because they were from a different time and way of thinking.  I like to just enjoy.

[carrps]

15 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Unless someone is researching for a class or something, I don't see the need to pick movies apart because they were from a different time and way of thinking.  I like to just enjoy.

I like to do both -- with the appropriate people. I was an English major and analyzing things is kind of in my dna.

[shapeshifter]

11 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

16 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

I get this is a drama and meant to entertain but it’s so unrealistic to go on a vacation and have 2 men want to hook up with you (Portia).

It is very realistic.  Like @luna1122again as a former young pretty woman, I used to have fend them off on vacation.  I always had a lot of fun on vacay.

There's also the expen$$$ive resort factor that implies the woman has social capital/conquest bragging rights.
As an impoverished single mother who looked attractive from a distance, when I visited my parents in Kona, we went through a ritzy lobby to get to a beach Mom knew about. On the way down a broad staircase, Mom whispered to me that some rock star was ogling me. 
Never would've happened. 
But sure, Portia has no obvious baggage. A tryst at a resort with someone who can easily ghost you is par for the course.
And such hookups are really just a variation of what the hookers are doing. 

[heatherchandler]

44 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

There's also the expen$$$ive resort factor that implies the woman has social capital/conquest bragging rights.
As an impoverished single mother who looked attractive from a distance, when I visited my parents in Kona, we went through a ritzy lobby to get to a beach Mom knew about. On the way down a broad staircase, Mom whispered to me that some rock star was ogling me. 
Never would've happened. 
But sure, Portia has no obvious baggage. A tryst at a resort with someone who can easily ghost you is par for the course.
And such hookups are really just a variation of what the hookers are doing. 

There is no ghosting when both parties know it is a tryst.  Vacation fun.  And no not like a hooker.

[CarpeFelis]

On 11/14/2022 at 1:31 PM, aghst said:

Harper tries to spice up their love life but Ethan isn't interested.  He isn't interested in Mia either, maybe just the porn on his laptop.  Though in the previous episode, he ran by Lucia and then came home aroused, which made him open his laptop.

It was commented earlier by either Ethan or Harper, I forget whom, that Ethan usually returns from hus morning run horny. It was also mentioned at some point, IIRC, that they’re trying to get pregnant. Not trying very hard, though! I think maybe Ethan doesn’t really want that and is therefore avoiding having sex with Harper.

On 11/14/2022 at 1:31 PM, aghst said:

Portia has put Albie in the friend zone.  She says he doesn't get her heart rate up.  She should just tell him she wants to be friends but she doesn't want to be stuck on her own?  Instead she wants the pool guy with the sensitive nips?

Personally I find Albie a lot more attractive than the guy in the pool—who I thought didn’t even look that interested in Portia until Albie showed up.

On 11/14/2022 at 1:31 PM, aghst said:

Greg leaving for two days is bullshit.  It's about 30 minutes to an hour to get to the nearest airport to Taormina, then probably have to fly to Rome or Milan and take an international flight there.  If Greg goes back to the west coast since Tanya is from San Francisco, that's about 15 hours if not more.  So over a day just to fly back to the US and then fly back to Sicily.  What's he going to do, go to the US and turn around and fly back after like 8-10 hours?

I’m thinking he isn’t going back to the US at all, but has someone he’s meeting up with a lot closer.

[CarpeFelis]

23 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The kitten scene just seems a little pathetic. More like eating lunch under the high school stairs because the mean girls don't want to talk to you.

Maybe it’s because I’m a cat lady, but that wasn’t how it came across to me. Until now Valentina has seemed pretty hard-edged. Feeding kittens while she had lunch showed she has a heart. And I completely get the “leave me the fuck alone” attitude, especially given that she has to deal with hotel guests all day.

5 hours ago, carrps said:

I was an English major and analyzing things is kind of in my dna.

Mine, too, but in a different way. Finding all the themes and hidden meanings in literature used to drive me nuts in school, but I love to analyze how things are made or how they work. So I ended up an engineer.

Edited November 15, 2022 by CarpeFelis

[aghst]

Ringer Prestige Podcast host said Valentina is a repressed lesbian.  She doesn't want attention from men but she perked up when that female underling praised her.

[Traveller519]

23 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Cameron telling Ethan, 'that's why it's safer to stick with whores,' suggested to me he's not inexperienced in dealing with prostitutes.

I am shocked every week by how much better this season is than season 1. I'm really glad I came back even after feeling like I completely wasted my time with season 1.

Sex workers are purely transactional. Someone like Cameron who would have the means and access would know to go that avenue (most of the time). He's married and seems to have some degree of care for his wife and kids, and sex workers don't develop feelings. They provide a service and leave. Now, I'm not sure he's smart enough to leave it at that. His interactions with Harper would certainly seem to indicate he doesn't.

[peachmangosteen]

43 minutes ago, aghst said:

Ringer Prestige Podcast host said Valentina is a repressed lesbian.  She doesn't want attention from men but she perked up when that female underling praised her.

I definitely think the little scene with the worker was meant to suggest there was something of a crush there, on both sides.

[Ireland77]

On 11/14/2022 at 1:53 AM, Armchair Critic said:

The actor who plays Cameron reminds me too much of James Franco.

Except when I close my eyes when he is speaking, all I can hear is Peter Gallagher. 

[Johnny Dollar]

Jennifer Coolidge is insufferable this year. That over the top crying scene was absolutely embarrassing. It’s like she’s in a different show. I know this is sometimes called a “comedy” but that was awful. Very poor direction of the character. 

[Paws]

Cameron is definitely running a Madoff-like operation, daphne as much as admitted it.  I also think  that Tonyas husband may be having the affair with…..

Portia.

that’s why the tarot card reader was going so nuts. 

[jeansheridan]

On 11/15/2022 at 4:56 AM, Milburn Stone said:

The cinematic power of context. In the episode, I received it as a comedic commentary on Italian culture. In the clip, I perceive--and feel!--the character's fear and (all too justified) paranoia. 

Harper has had someone flash her in a private space (Cameron), grab her in the water, been mildly judged for her sex life (depending on how you take Daphne & Cameron's comments at meals), and then this scene. It all feels threatening to me. Oh and she has to swim in a borrowed suit while being watched by three men. I give Harper props for being steady at a very unrelaxing vacation. Her one moment doing what she wanted (swimming in the ocean) is ruined by Cameron. She is a bit bossy with her husband but in general this has not been her vacation at all.

[Sailorgirl26]

6 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Jennifer Coolidge is insufferable this year. That over the top crying scene was absolutely embarrassing. It’s like she’s in a different show. I know this is sometimes called a “comedy” but that was awful. Very poor direction of the character. 

I feel the complete opposite. I am much more into her character this go-round than last season and find myself laughing at how over-the-top but at the same time authentically Coolidge is playing it -- she is fully committed to the awfulness that is Tanya. I didn't understand last season how she won an Emmy, but I could totally see her getting one this season. 

When she was packing up the tarot card reader and pushing her out the door complaining about how negative the card reader then stomping to her room --I lost it. The absolute obliviousness and irony of her reaction to the tarot card reader in the face of her negativity about every single thing, and at the same time that she forced her assistant to wait in the bathroom and saw nothing wrong with it, was some pretty incredible character writing.  That small scene was very deep in character exposition -- no easy feat for a writer to create, nor an actor to convey. 

That she is insufferable is pretty much the entire point of the character. That she seems like she's in a different show is exactly how the character functions in life -- in her own universe focused solely on how everything negatively impacts her and her alone. 

Is it painful and cringey to watch? Absolutely. But again, that's the point. We're watching this woman devolve more and more into her own mental instabilities. While some characters may be written to redemption or awareness, we KNOW that Tanya never will because its simply beyond her capacity. 

This show isn't about nice people in pretty places. Its about various types of crappy people who arguably have the least to be crappy about. In pretty places. We know at least one person will die either directly or indirectly because of some character's crappiness -- will it be someone who "deserves" it or someone who is collateral damage from the crappiness?

Some will get a little less crappy, some will stay the same, and some will get even crappier. Tanya is the latter. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Sailorgirl26