S01.E06: Udûn

[Affogato]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:55 AM, tv-talk said:

Adar was captured by Morgoth and transformed into what he is now. If a human is experimented on and turned into an orc, nobody would blame the human for what they did next. For whatever reason, the show decided to depict Adar as this leader or Orcs who just wants a place for them to live. In peace? I dont know, that seems absurd, but it IS the way the show has written it. His plan was pretty clearly to wipe the humans out of the area while blotting out the sun in the area so the orcs would no longer have to hide and could live above ground where humans had been. Is that really so bad? Really? He even claims to have killed Sauron! Idk, to me they managed to make him seem sympathetic when Galadrial was promising to enact a genocide against him and his followers.

Well first of all, I did say "give they arent beholden to the books" meaning that the writers can do what they want. What I was suggesting was having Galadrial's ptsd driven rage and obsession result in her unwittingly causing Sauron's ultimate rise, perhaps through an action she takes on her own that others advised against. That would be perfectly fitting for her headstrong character other than the fact she'd have had to have made a mistake whereas the show seems to want her to be infallible as well as invulnerable.

There is a fundamentalist Christian thread in Tolkien that I  think clashes with some of our modern sensibilities.

My understanding is that the uruk joined Sauron. We see humans in this episode in the previous one, as misguided as they are they choose to die with Sauron, not because they are forced, but because they want to be part of the stronger, winning force.  The dark land Adar is creating will eventually rise up and tarnish the rest of middle earth, but as Gil-Galad mentions a while ago, it may rise up sooner if Galadriel is there. This does seem to be happening, she is instigating an immediate war. But she isn't creating the evil and it will eventually need to be put down, because it is evil. In the process many good elves and men will be turned to that evil, for sure.

I maintain that men who act like Galadriel does in the show, for similar reasons, are often treated with more understanding and often admiration on social media. You are certainly extending a lot of effort and understanding towards sympathizing with an elf, a uruk (as they prefer to be called)  who has choosen and evil path at the expense of the female elf who has been fighting that evil.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Affogato
wrong word, fixed

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

I maintain that men who act like Galadriel does in the show, for similar reasons, are often treated with more understanding and often admiration on social media. You are certainly extending a lot of effort and understanding towards sympathizing with an elf, a uruk (as they prefer to be called)  who has choosen and evil path at the expense of the female dwarf who has been fighting that evil.

He didnt choose anything. He was captured and tortured by Morgoth itself, the supposed source of all evil in the world. I read his story as being one that could have happened to ANY elf who was captured like that. Unlike the human villagers, he did not turn on his own kind or towards the darkness- he was captured and changed. That's how I read it at least.

I think the argument that if Galadrial was a man people would react different is a bogus one. The character is horribly written. Wooden and off-putting, while also seemingly semi-deranged at times. There is nothing about the character that would be more palatable as male. In fact I'd turn it around and say the only reason the character isnt completely pilloried is because she's a woman and there is a redeeming aspect to having a female so strong in any role given how stories used to be written.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

he dark land Adar is creating will eventually rise up and tarnish the rest of middle earth, but as Gil-Galad mentions a while ago, it may rise up sooner if Galadriel is there

I had totally forgotten about that! So maybe that is where they are going, Galadrial's well-intentioned actions unintentionally result in Sauron's immediate rise and the desolation around what will become Mordor. I think that would be a great twist for the show and do hope that's where they go with it. Afterall, something has to occur that turns Galadrial from how she is portrayed now into the person she becomes much later- unless of course the writers have decided to forego that entirely and maintain her current archetype.

[Affogato]

6 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I think the argument that if Galadrial was a man people would react different is a bogus one. The character is horribly written. Wooden and off-putting, while also seemingly semi-deranged at times. There is nothing about the character that would be more palatable as male. In fact I'd turn it around and say the only reason the character isnt completely pilloried is because she's a woman and there is a redeeming aspect to having a female so strong in any role given how stories used to be written.

You mean like the Punisher? Like the Batman? Like the Joker? I mean, there are many many male characters that are hugely popular and romanticized and 'wooden, off putting and semi-deranged'. And they are hugely romanticized.

[tv-talk]

That is my whole point, this is Lord of the Rings not the DC Comic universe and she's written in a way that doesnt match anything we've ever heard or seen about elves nor in any way lines up with her character in the books or previous films etc.  Since when is any elf driven purely by rage and anger and thirst for revenge? Literally thousands of years with a single-minded hatred being her sole driving force? Sorry, but that's no Elf.

As others have mentioned, they finally "humanized" her a bit in some scenes this episode which was a welcome improvement. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by tv-talk

[Haleth]

2 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Since when is any elf driven purely by rage and anger and thirst for revenge? Literally thousands of years with a single-minded hatred being her sole driving force?

Feanor and his sons?

Edited October 3, 2022 by Haleth

[Affogato]

34 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

That is my whole point, this is Lord of the Rings not the DC Comic universe and she's written in a way that doesnt match anything we've ever heard or seen about elves nor in any way lines up with her character in the books or previous films etc.  Since when is any elf driven purely by rage and anger and thirst for revenge? Literally thousands of years with a single-minded hatred being her sole driving force? Sorry, but that's no Elf.

As others have mentioned, they finally "humanized" her a bit in some scenes this episode which was a welcome improvement. 

Yes actually in "Unfinished Tales" Christopher T gathers together a lot of bits and pieces about Galadriel and Celeborn and while it is somewhat boring to me it in fact does outline a Galadriel that I can see as the basis for the character in the show. I found it on Hoopla, if you have access. Tolkein changes a lot, back and forth, but her character--falling into obsession twice in her history, her desire to rule middle earth, etc, are all mentioned.

PTSD--she says that she can't stop fighting. It is how she copes.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Affogato

[tv-talk]

Ok thanks for that info, I have definitely never read unfinished tales and always had heard that ChristopherT took quite a few liberties that he then put forward as his Dad's ideas. I will take a look at Hoopla though, have never heard of that.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Ok thanks for that info, I have definitely never read unfinished tales and always had heard that ChristopherT took quite a few liberties that he then put forward as his Dad's ideas. I will take a look at Hoopla though, have never heard of that.

It is a place to download books, movies, tv shows and so on. It is sponsored by different libraries. Free but you need to have a library account. 

[quarks]

3 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Adar was captured by Morgoth and transformed into what he is now. If a human is experimented on and turned into an orc, nobody would blame the human for what they did next. For whatever reason, the show decided to depict Adar as this leader or Orcs who just wants a place for them to live. In peace? I dont know, that seems absurd, but it IS the way the show has written it. His plan was pretty clearly to wipe the humans out of the area while blotting out the sun in the area so the orcs would no longer have to hide and could live above ground where humans had been. Is that really so bad? Really? He even claims to have killed Sauron! Idk, to me they managed to make him seem sympathetic when Galadrial was promising to enact a genocide against him and his followers.

Except that Adar isn't going after Morgoth and his followers. He's going after the descendants of humans who once served Morgoth - all of whom were and are still dealing with the consequences of this. Unlike the Elves, Dwarves and everyone in Numenor, they are living in cramped homes with very few luxuries; until the first episode, they were continually patrolled by Elves - something several of them visibly resented (and something that may have ensured that a few of them remained loyal to Sauron and Morgoth); and as Halbrand and one patrol Elf tell us, they are still getting judged for something their ancestors did - not anything that they personally did until a couple of episodes ago.

And this is all happening against a background where we see people living rich, full, happy lives underground - showing that yes, Adar has some alternatives here.

I mean, yes, his argument that the Orcs, too, are alive and deserve a home isn't entirely wrong. Possibly even sympathetic! And the idea of exploring some potentially grey areas in Middle-Earth is intriguing. I just don't think "but we need a home!" exactly justifies poisoning perfectly innocent cows, enslaving multiple people and treating them brutally, and then deliberately setting off a major volcano - especially since that eruption pretty much burnt the food supplies for everyone in the region, including Orcs. 

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Ok thanks for that info, I have definitely never read unfinished tales and always had heard that ChristopherT took quite a few liberties that he then put forward as his Dad's ideas. I will take a look at Hoopla though, have never heard of that.

That was more about the 1977 version of The Silmarillion, which Christopher Tolkien assembled from his father's multiple and frequently very inconsistent drafts, deciding to go with X version instead of Y version, or W version instead of Z version, and as he later detailed, changed a couple of very minor things under the belief that his father had intended to make those same changes eventually and just didn't get around to it. The real problem was with the first part - there's a valid question about whether or not JRR Tolkien would have agreed with the inclusion of the story of the Sun and the Moon as it appears in the 1977 Silmarillion - yes, he wrote it, but he was in the middle of radically rethinking that entire concept when he died, and later drafts/notes suggest that he was planning on tossing it out. So that's the sort of thing we're talking about when we're talking about "liberties" to the source material. About 98% of what eventually appeared, though, was JRR Tolkien's words.

Christopher Tolkien then decided that trying to create one thing out of the chaos had been a mistake, and arranged to have pretty much every single scrap of those drafts printed, with extensive footnotes and commentary, explaining precisely what he had changed - which forms The Histories of Middle-Earth, which is why we know all this stuff. 

Unfinished Tales, however, isn't part of any of that - it's a collection of stories about Middle-Earth that Tolkien never got around to finishing. Christopher Tolkien didn't take any liberties with those other than occasionally changing some typos. These stories include some background about Numenor, Galadriel and the Five Wizards. I think it's mostly of interest to diehard Tolkien fans like me, but based on your posts here I think you'd find a lot of it very interesting. It's organized into different ages, so if you are just interested in Numenor or Galadriel you can jump right to those bits. 

[Emily Thrace]

On 9/30/2022 at 2:54 PM, Jenniferbug said:

I think they need to introduce Celeborn pretty soon...I'm starting to ship Halbrand and Galadriel together a bit (...assuming he's not Sauron, which I'm still hoping he's not). My vote is for Halbrand to be one of the nazgul or possibly that ghost king who ends up fighting alongside Aragorn (I don't remember the details so please tell me if that's not an option). 

Is Celeborn a fairly blank slate as far as canon goes? Despite posting in the book threads, I'm not all that knowledgeable of Tolkien. I know enough about the lore and world that posting here seems safest, but know none of the specifics that many of you do. 

I'd like Isildur's friend (Otamano?) who didn't enjoy battle but likes horses to go off with his fiance and found Rohan. 

I thought it was a bit odd that Miriel summoned Halbrand and was just like "here's your king" without having a conversation with him about it. And that all the people were like "yay! A king!" No one has questions about where the heck he's been? Maybe in story they already know, but it seems odd they wouldn't recognize him then. 

Yeah I don't think Halbrand is Sauron either. Why would he save Galadriel in the first place? Why would he be developing this emotionally intimate relationship with her? Why save Elendil? Its also a little obvious at this point.

Also the idea that Sauron is possessing Halbrand without him knowing it doesn't fit with how he operates. Sauron can shape shift but he doesn't possess people that's Voldemort. Sauron being a spirit now would be a departure from Tolkien's story even further than anything else they have done.

One thing about Halbrand being the King of the Dead is that the Southlands are in the wrong place. The mountains Aragorn enters are on the other side of Rohan. Its possible the kingdom moves given what just happened but it does seem rather far away. There is also the fact that while Ilsidur is the one who curses that king It would have been Elendil how called for Halbrand's help. I don't see Halbrand ignoring a call for help from Elendiel since he saved his life when he was stranded. That's what that nod was about in the episode.

Also while Ontamno's talk about going home was cute and very Samwise like it also moves him higher up the death watch list. Talking about after the war this early almost guarantees you won't see it.

I also agree with statements that they could use someone to work on the dialogue sometimes it works but when its bad its really bad.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I mean, yes, his argument that the Orcs, too, are alive and deserve a home isn't entirely wrong. Possibly even sympathetic! And the idea of exploring some potentially grey areas in Middle-Earth is intriguing. I just don't think "but we need a home!" exactly justifies poisoning perfectly innocent cows, enslaving multiple people and treating them brutally, and then deliberately setting off a major volcano - especially since that eruption pretty much burnt the food supplies for everyone in the region, including Orcs.

I agree, it'd be fine for orcs to have a homeland. But why take it from people who already live there? We've seen through Harfoot journeys there's vacant but fertile land elsewhere. Assuming Adar was honest about his backstory, he's old enough to have wandered around and seen this for himself. But he chooses to detonate Mt Doom anyway. No moral ambiguity here, it seems.

[PeterPirate]

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

7 hours ago, tv-talk said:

That is my whole point, this is Lord of the Rings not the DC Comic universe and she's written in a way that doesnt match anything we've ever heard or seen about elves nor in any way lines up with her character in the books or previous films etc.  Since when is any elf driven purely by rage and anger and thirst for revenge? Literally thousands of years with a single-minded hatred being her sole driving force? Sorry, but that's no Elf.

As others have mentioned, they finally "humanized" her a bit in some scenes this episode which was a welcome improvement. 

Feanor and his sons?

Neither Feanor or his sons came to happy endings.  

12 hours ago, Anduin said:

Update to a previous comment: I went back and checked out the Moria scene. Turns out that while Gandalf has a glow around him, it isn't the forcefield I remember. The memory cheats.

Given the size of the pyroclastic flow, I still think the only way for the main characters to survive is for Galadriel to employ her hitherto unknown magical power.  Like Amanda Rogers did to the warp core breach in the Star Trek TNG episode True Q.  

[Jenniferbug]

49 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

Also while Ontamno's talk about going home was cute and very Samwise like it also moves him higher up the death watch list. Talking about after the war this early almost guarantees you won't see it.

Oh, I'm not terribly optimistic or hopeful for his future either, just was pondering what a happy ending could be for him. Going home to Numenor clearly isn't it. Random wishful thinking on my part, basically. 

Thanks for the insight into the King of the Dead! 

[Anduin]

On 10/2/2022 at 8:23 PM, Anduin said:

I wonder if Charlotte Brandstorm was influenced by Mad Max. George Miller likes to show the secondary effects of actions. It's not enough for one car to crash, he'll often show it veering off and colliding with another car or something similar. In this case, it was someone sliding down the roof after getting an arrow to the chest, the bloodstain on Ontamo's armour, and there was a third moment that has slipped out of my mind. Anyway, it felt Miller-esque, which is no bad thing.

The other moment was the one orc that got dragged! I don't know why I remembered it just now, but there you go.

Also, I wonder if some of the Numenoreans will become the ancestors of the Rohirrim. Yeah, one good cavalry charge, but that's more than the Gondoreans ever managed.

[QuantumMechanic]

18 hours ago, Haleth said:

Feanor and his sons?

To wit:

”Vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.”

[PeterPirate]

28 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

To wit:

”Vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.”

And, after the Silmarils have been taken from the Enemy:

Yet he (Maglor) yielded at last to the will of Maedhros, and they took counsel together how they should lay hands on the Silmarils. And they disguised themselves, and came in the night to the camp of Eönwë, and crept into the place where the Silmarils were guarded; and they slew the guards, and laid hands on the jewels.  

Just saying, if Galadriel conjures up thoughts about Feanor and his sons, that's not a good thing. 

[quarks]

38 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Just saying, if Galadriel conjures up thoughts about Feanor and his sons, that's not a good thing. 

Well, no, but maybe that's part of the point here? To show how vows of this sort - "SILMARIL SILMARIL SILMARIL" and "KILL SAURON KILL SAURON KILL SAURON" can go really poorly not just for the person who made the vow, but lots of people in their vicinity?

[tv-talk]

7 minutes ago, quarks said:

Well, no, but maybe that's part of the point here? To show how vows of this sort - "SILMARIL SILMARIL SILMARIL" and "KILL SAURON KILL SAURON KILL SAURON" can go really poorly not just for the person who made the vow, but lots of people in their vicinity?

I see the difference there as the Silmarils corrupting the Elves, same way the Rings corrupted anyone who possessed them. Meanwhile Galadrial is just angry of her own accord, not because a quasi-magic object has enveloped her. However I may have that wrong with regards to effect of the Silmarils.

13 hours ago, quarks said:

I think it's mostly of interest to diehard Tolkien fans like me, but based on your posts here I think you'd find a lot of it very interesting. It's organized into different ages, so if you are just interested in Numenor or Galadriel you can jump right to those bits. 

Thanks for all that info! Will check it out.

[tv-talk]

12 hours ago, Anduin said:

I agree, it'd be fine for orcs to have a homeland. But why take it from people who already live there? We've seen through Harfoot journeys there's vacant but fertile land elsewhere. Assuming Adar was honest about his backstory, he's old enough to have wandered around and seen this for himself. But he chooses to detonate Mt Doom anyway. No moral ambiguity here, it seems.

but where exactly is it the Orcs could actually settle without setting off massive armies to destroy them as soon as they are noticed? Wiping out a small contingent of raggedy humans after giving them a chance to join up would seem to be about as minor a thing as they could do to get their own homeland. Of course the very nature of Orcs as we understand it makes the whole thing seem silly, but it IS how Adar appears to see it- all the way to the point of having believed he killed Sauron. My point there was indeed he actually did seem sympathetic in the face of Galadrial's promise of genocide against him and his "people." I for one would quite enjoy if they ended up making Adar seem not so pure evil but rather a broken Elf whose plans originate from his own centuries of torture and despair at the hands of the actual evil. We'll see.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I see the difference there as the Silmarils corrupting the Elves, same way the Rings corrupted anyone who possessed them. Meanwhile Galadrial is just angry of her own accord, not because a quasi-magic object has enveloped her. However I may have that wrong with regards to effect of the Silmarils.

Thanks for all that info! Will check it out.

I don't think that the Silmarils on their own corrupt anyone? The text specifically states that Varda made them holy, and they end up burning people who have been corrupted. Owning one doesn't turn Beren, Dior or Elwing evil, and Earendil has apparently been flying around with one for thousands of years now, without becoming evil. Sam later uses the light from one Silmaril to defeat Shelob, not corrupt her.

Feanor was corrupted not by the Silmarils, but by his own pride, and his willingness to listen to Morgoth. But at the very end of his life, he did fight against evil.

[QuantumMechanic]

5 hours ago, quarks said:

I don't think that the Silmarils on their own corrupt anyone? The text specifically states that Varda made them holy, and they end up burning people who have been corrupted. Owning one doesn't turn Beren, Dior or Elwing evil, and Earendil has apparently been flying around with one for thousands of years now, without becoming evil. Sam later uses the light from one Silmaril to defeat Shelob, not corrupt her.

Feanor was corrupted not by the Silmarils, but by his own pride, and his willingness to listen to Morgoth. But at the very end of his life, he did fight against evil.

Yes, exactly. The silmarils themselves were pure, hallowed objects. To the extent people were corrupted by them it was their own, innate desire for possession doing that.

By contrast, the Ring was a baleful, intrinsically evil object that worked its own corrupting magic on people, amplifying innate desires.

[Affogato]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:55 AM, tv-talk said:

Adar was captured by Morgoth and transformed into what he is now. If a human is experimented on and turned into an orc, nobody would blame the human for what they did next. For whatever reason, the show decided to depict Adar as this leader or Orcs who just wants a place for them to live. In peace? I dont know, that seems absurd, but it IS the way the show has written it. His plan was pretty clearly to wipe the humans out of the area while blotting out the sun in the area so the orcs would no longer have to hide and could live above ground where humans had been. Is that really so bad? Really? He even claims to have killed Sauron! Idk, to me they managed to make him seem sympathetic when Galadrial was promising to enact a genocide against him and his followers.

Well first of all, I did say "give they arent beholden to the books" meaning that the writers can do what they want. What I was suggesting was having Galadrial's ptsd driven rage and obsession result in her unwittingly causing Sauron's ultimate rise, perhaps through an action she takes on her own that others advised against. That would be perfectly fitting for her headstrong character other than the fact she'd have had to have made a mistake whereas the show seems to want her to be infallible as well as invulnerable.

If we are talking about metaphorical Nazis yes, both the nazi leaders and the guys following orders are responsible for their acts. And that is what we are metaphorically talking about. Middle earth orc Wise. 
 

we know galadriel has a redemption arc. She will fail and overcome, etc. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Affogato

[Emily Thrace]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:15 AM, Affogato said:

I maintain that men who act like Galadriel does in the show, for similar reasons, are often treated with more understanding and often admiration on social media. You are certainly extending a lot of effort and understanding towards sympathizing with an elf, a uruk (as they prefer to be called)  who has choosen and evil path at the expense of the female dwarf who has been fighting that evil.

Yeah a really great example of misogyny in fandom is the debate surrounding Galadriel's ducking arrows by sliding down over the side of her horse. Apparently its "unrealistic" except those types of moves are are pulled off by normal humans and Galadriel is an elf with magic powers. I literally saw a woman do pretty much the same thing at a rodeo once. According to my Uncle who won several silver buckles at the Calgary Stampede for his riding skills (and was the reason we were at the rodeo in the first place) those tricks are actually easier for women because we are generally smaller and the difference in our center gravity makes balancing and getting back up onto the horse easier. The misogyny is real and rampant.

Frankly a lot of the complaints I find are routed in traditionally female expectations like her lack of social skills. (Its actually rather refreshing that Halbrand is the smooth talker of the two). There is also a lot of complaints about her not matching Galadriel in the Lord of the Rings but she is thousands of years older there. It would be weirder if she was the same person. There is also a lot of griping that just sounds TPTB have ruined their hot docile elf chick fantasies more than any real criticism.

[QuantumMechanic]

3 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

Frankly a lot of the complaints I find are routed in traditionally female expectations like her lack of social skills. (Its actually rather refreshing that Halbrand is the smooth talker of the two). There is also a lot of complaints about her not matching Galadriel in the Lord of the Rings but she is thousands of years older there. It would be weirder if she was the same person. There is also a lot of griping that just sounds TPTB have ruined their hot docile elf chick fantasies more than any real criticism.

I gripe that someone who is 3000+ years old at this point remains unable to not be a tactless, abrasive ass in moments where some diplomacy is needed.

They should have just made up a new female elf character, used the same actress, given her all the same lines, had her act the same way etc.  That would also have the advantage of stripping away the plot armor from the character.  Every time they try to put Galadriel in danger (like at the end of this episode) it inspires nothing other than big yawns because she can't die because of plot armor.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I gripe that someone who is 3000+ years old at this point remains unable to not be a tactless, abrasive ass in moments where some diplomacy is needed.

They should have just made up a new female elf character, used the same actress, given her all the same lines, had her act the same way etc.  That would also have the advantage of stripping away the plot armor from the character.  Every time they try to put Galadriel in danger (like at the end of this episode) it inspires nothing other than big yawns because she can't die because of plot armor.

I like her character as it stands. The thing is, she's been utterly focussed on vengeance all this time, ignoring her social skills in favour of martial ones. That's why Gil-galad is the high king. He's younger, but went into leadership over the military. However, I hope she gets a chance to relax sometime soon, relearn her social skills. Will that happen? Not by the looks of things, but maybe she'll realise she can achieve her goals through other means.

[JustHereForFood]

Quote

Nuclear winter, though. Famine, etc.

You know, for me, watching this show right now, after I have spent 7 months rigorously watching Ukraine-russia war and calling russian soldiers orcs, it's rather hard for me to watch and the end of this episode especially was horrible. Not to mention seeing so many people now sympathising with orcs, which is a huge problem in the real world. It makes me want to vomit.

Not saying anyone else should consider it from this perspective, just sharing mine.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

You know, for me, watching this show right now, after I have spent 7 months rigorously watching Ukraine-russia war and calling russian soldiers orcs, it's rather hard for me to watch and the end of this episode especially was horrible. Not to mention seeing so many people now sympathising with orcs, which is a huge problem in the real world. It makes me want to vomit.

Not saying anyone else should consider it from this perspective, just sharing mine.

The LOTR feels like it draws from World War II, and I think the response is reasonable. The orcs are presented as having free will and feelings, it doesn't mean they are good people.

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

You know, for me, watching this show right now, after I have spent 7 months rigorously watching Ukraine-russia war and calling russian soldiers orcs, it's rather hard for me to watch and the end of this episode especially was horrible. Not to mention seeing so many people now sympathising with orcs, which is a huge problem in the real world. It makes me want to vomit.

Not saying anyone else should consider it from this perspective, just sharing mine.

It is awesome that Artur Rehi has been referring to the Russians as Orcs since the invasion started. 

I guess I will drop Corey Olsen's analysis of this episode.  At the 1-hour 21-minute mark he gives an exposition of Tolkien's waffling on the nature of the Orcs.  

And at the 54-minute mark, he discusses Galadriel's behavior towards Adar.  

[Harvey]

6 episodes in, and Adar is the only likeable & interesting character so far. How is that.

[Emily Thrace]

On 10/4/2022 at 11:42 PM, QuantumMechanic said:

I gripe that someone who is 3000+ years old at this point remains unable to not be a tactless, abrasive ass in moments where some diplomacy is needed.

They should have just made up a new female elf character, used the same actress, given her all the same lines, had her act the same way etc.  That would also have the advantage of stripping away the plot armor from the character.  Every time they try to put Galadriel in danger (like at the end of this episode) it inspires nothing other than big yawns because she can't die because of plot armor.

Thranduil was even older and an even bigger ass for most of the Hobbit. Legolas was pretty haughty for most of the Fellowship. Yet its Galadriel who is "unlikable" funny that. What flaws should Galadriel have had exactly? Cuz being an arrogant prick is a pretty standard one for elves ( and princesses for that matter).

Last time someone tried to create an original female elf we got Tauriel, nuff said. Plus all the fans would have wanted to see Galadriel anyway. TPTB were alway dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't with her character. Either she is flawless and casual fans find her boring and outdated. Or she is flawed and it ruins all the diehards fantasies. I think in catering to more casual fans they have made the right choice especially since Galadriel's cannon is particularly messy anyway.

[JustHereForFood]

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

Thranduil was even older and an even bigger ass for most of the Hobbit. Legolas was pretty haughty for most of the Fellowship. Yet its Galadriel who is "unlikable" funny that. What flaws should Galadriel have had exactly? Cuz being an arrogant prick is a pretty standard one for elves ( and princesses for that matter).

Last time someone tried to create an original female elf we got Tauriel, nuff said. Plus all the fans would have wanted to see Galadriel anyway. TPTB were alway dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't with her character. Either she is flawless and casual fans find her boring and outdated. Or she is flawed and it ruins all the diehards fantasies. I think in catering to more casual fans they have made the right choice especially since Galadriel's cannon is particularly messy anyway.

It's what TV is today. People complain that they want characters to have flaws. If they don't have them, they are Mary Sues. If they have them, they need to be quirky, otherwise the character is unlikeable. If they are good characters of course. Villains can murder and torture people, as long as they make puppy eyes afterwards they will have their fans.

[Camera One]

There are many ways to write a flawed character without turning her into a simplistic one-note snarling character.  To me, a male character who acted like her would have been just as insufferable.  Unlike Thranduil, she is a major (if not the most major) protagonist on this show.  We need to be shown more of her traumatic backstory to actually explain and justify her behavior and lack of socialization, beyond a bland childhood flashback and a basic her-brother-died-and-she-wants-revenge vendetta.  Even a glimpse of some humanity, maybe shared with Elrond, supposedly her best friend.  She hasn't been shown to care about anyone but herself, not her soldier elves, not her best friend, not new people she meets in Numenor.  They even had Miriel helping to shield a random villager while Galadriel stood there watching the eruption.  There are so many kickass female characters who are more nuanced and cheer-able and they are that way because of stronger writing.  It is always a difficult balance to write a flawed but relatable character, but I don't think it's mission impossible.  

[PeterPirate]

29 minutes ago, Camera One said:

There are many ways to write a flawed character without turning her into a simplistic one-note snarling character.  To me, a male character who acted like her would have been just as insufferable.  Unlike Thranduil, she is a major (if not the most major) protagonist on this show.  We need to be shown more of her traumatic backstory to actually explain and justify her behavior and lack of socialization, beyond a bland childhood flashback and a basic her-brother-died-and-she-wants-revenge vendetta.  Even a glimpse of some humanity, maybe shared with Elrond, supposedly her best friend.  She hasn't been shown to care about anyone but herself, not her soldier elves, not her best friend, not new people she meets in Numenor.  They even had Miriel helping to shield a random villager while Galadriel stood there watching the eruption.  There are so many kickass female characters who are more nuanced and cheer-able and they are that way because of stronger writing.  It is always a difficult balance to write a flawed but relatable character, but I don't think it's mission impossible.  

I believe Galadriel has been intentionally written that way so that when Adar tells her "Perhaps your search for Morgoth's successor should have ended in your own mirror", we are supposed to agree with him, at least partially.   

[Camera One]

34 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I believe Galadriel has been intentionally written that way so that when Adar tells her "Perhaps your search for Morgoth's successor should have ended in your own mirror", we are supposed to agree with him, at least partially.   

They do seem to be trying for moral complexity.  Yes, I feel like they were trying to manipulate the viewer into being forced to admit Adar isn't all wrong by having Galadriel vowing to kill every last of his "children".   I wish I could care but I couldn't.

[Quark]

Fabulous episode.

The last few minutes with the volcano erupting was beautiful (in a terrible kind of way).