S04.E08: Chapter Eight: Papa

[Clanstarling]

On 7/1/2022 at 6:26 PM, overtherainbow said:

It's not obvious or at least it's not meant to be. Really people went running with it because Noah Schnapp alluded to it in an interview.

He kills just about every scene he's in. His acting is fantastic, it's so raw

I don't know about others, but I haven't read any interviews, and I've thought this since last season. I also started rewatching the first season - only the first two episodes so far, and in both Will is referred to (by his father, and another person I forget who) with gay slur words. The seeds were planted right away, though still in a way that could easily be shrugged off.

Schnapp is an awesome actor and deserves an emmy for this year's season.

On 7/2/2022 at 3:36 AM, Haleth said:

Noah is really a gifted young actor.  The emotion of that speech was so raw and real, it made me tear up.  Loved, loved that big brother was aware of the subtext and showed such concern in his expression.  I don't care if he's in love with Mike or just misses his best friend, he's a boy who has gone through a lot and is having trouble processing his emotions.

It choked me up - and it was also the first time this season that the big brother stood out, at least to me.

13 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Not to mention that you had James Taylor’s “Fire And Rain” playing under that scene, for God‘s sake!

Oh yeah, that felt ominous all right. That is no incidental song.

I really liked this episode - glad Brenner got his and that El denied him absolution. I'm really liking Stoner Pizza Guy, even though he seemed like such a caricature.

[iMonrey]

I've completely lost track of why the military is after Eleven, and how they found the underground bunker.

Also, what was that collar contraption around Eleven's neck? Someone upthread referred to it as a dampening collar, but Brenner said "I wasn't going to activate it" when Eleven woke up and found it around her neck. And then she was still able to take down the helicopter while wearing it. 

I'm not convinced Brenner is actually dead. 

[Redrum]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I've completely lost track of why the military is after Eleven, and how they found the underground bunker.

In theory, Brenner, and Owens for that matter, and Hawkins Institute, was all funded by the military. There was actually a lot of funding of parapsycology research in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. The military wanted genuine remote viewers as spies (I think MKULTRA was involved supposedly, and the CIA did fund Project Stargate -not the show). Stephen King alludes to the idea in Firestarter and some of his other books. Steven Speilberg alludes to the concept in ET as well. So the military would consider Eleven a valuable asset.

It was unstated on the show, but I was under the impression - and am possibly wrong - that Brenner revealed the position to the military looking for El because Owens was going to take El away to Hawkins. 

[KarenX]

1 minute ago, Redrum said:

It was unstated on the show, but I was under the impression - and am possibly wrong - that Brenner revealed the position to the military looking for El because Owens was going to take El away to Hawkins.

I had made that exact same assumption.

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Schnapp is an awesome actor and deserves an emmy for this year's season.

I thought he also deserved one for season two.  He killed during that season.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I've completely lost track of why the military is after Eleven, and how they found the underground bunker.

Also, what was that collar contraption around Eleven's neck? Someone upthread referred to it as a dampening collar, but Brenner said "I wasn't going to activate it" when Eleven woke up and found it around her neck. And then she was still able to take down the helicopter while wearing it. 

I'm not convinced Brenner is actually dead. 

The military found the lair because one of the men protecting Mike, Will, et al. survived and the guy tracking El put him in a box until he told them where they were (which, as a claustrophobic, is one of the more horrific things I have seen on this show). Brenner had nothing to do with the military finding them.

The collar thing was locked around El's neck but not activated, when is why she could take down the copter. Brenner unlocked it immediately prior to dying. 

Personally, I found the whole sequence around the collar kind of pointless. Having her put in a collar only to have it immediately removed just added time to the episode and we didn't need it, I don't think.

Edited July 3, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[Brn2bwild]

17 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

The collar thing was locked around El's neck but not activated, when is why she could take down the copter. Brenner unlocked it immediately prior to dying. 

Personally, I found the whole sequence around the collar kind of pointless. Having her put in a collar only to have it immediately removed just added time to the episode and we didn't need it, I don't think.

I think that was the same collar he put on Two in Episode Seven (?) after Two's gang hurt Eleven.

[Kel Varnsen]

So I started rewatching season 2 and realized that this episode fixed a plot hole that I didn't realize existed. The first time we meet Murray in season 2 he is talking to Hop about how Russian have infiltrated Hawkins. We know he is right because S2 takes place in fall 1984 and S3 takes place in summer 85 so there absolutely would have been Russian working on the mall and the base below it. He was just wrong in that he thought El was Russian. 

But that got me thinking, if El opened the gate in fall of 83 that really isn't enough time for the Russians to get ahold of that Intel, and decide to build a secret research base under a US mall and make it happen by 1985. But if El first sent 001 to the upside down in 1979, and Brenner started researching it very soon after (which he kind of confirmed, or at least she realized), that might be enough time for the commies to hear about it and start building their mall base.

[janie jones]

5 hours ago, Redrum said:

It was unstated on the show, but I was under the impression - and am possibly wrong - that Brenner revealed the position to the military looking for El because Owens was going to take El away to Hawkins. 

5 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

The military found the lair because one of the men protecting Mike, Will, et al. survived and the guy tracking El put him in a box until he told them where they were (which, as a claustrophobic, is one of the more horrific things I have seen on this show). Brenner had nothing to do with the military finding them.

This confused me at first, too. It seems that there were two factions in the lair: Brenner's people and Owens's people. Brenner's people handcuffed Owens, but the military storming the place looking for El (as @eleanorofaquitaine said) was unrelated to Brenner's coup.

[Llywela]

15 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I've completely lost track of why the military is after Eleven, and how they found the underground bunker.

Also, what was that collar contraption around Eleven's neck? Someone upthread referred to it as a dampening collar, but Brenner said "I wasn't going to activate it" when Eleven woke up and found it around her neck. And then she was still able to take down the helicopter while wearing it. 

There have been two military factions in play this season. The first faction is affiliated with Brenner and Owens; these are the guys who know all about the Upside Down and believe Eleven is critical to defending our world against it. The second faction believes Eleven is responsible for the murders in Hawkins - they think she is doing it remotely, because they know she was trained as a remote assassin, so they think she has gone rogue and needs to be put down. And apparently they are prepared to murder a great many people themselves to achieve that aim.

The collar around Eleven's neck was a shock collar - a clear sign of the extreme measures Brenner was prepared to use to control Eleven. He said "I wasn't going to activate it" because he was hoping just the fear of it being used would be enough to keep her in line, but I have no doubt he would have used it, if she had tried to escape again, and then he'd have blamed her for forcing him to hurt her, like the gaslighter he is. Or was. I'm glad she chose not to give him the absolution he begged her for at the end there. He might believe he was always acting in her best interests, but he was an abusive bastard who deserved everything he got.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Llywela

[mledawn]

I also thought the collar was pointless and confusing but looking back it shows how disingenuous Brenner is as he continues to try and tell El he loves her and has her best interests at heart. Saying all these placating things while having gone to the trouble of putting an actual collar on her. Very literal contrast.

[Llywela]

16 minutes ago, mledawn said:

I also thought the collar was pointless and confusing but looking back it shows how disingenuous Brenner is as he continues to try and tell El he loves her and has her best interests at heart. Saying all these placating things while having gone to the trouble of putting an actual collar on her. Very literal contrast.

Yeah, I think that was the point, really underlining his gaslighting in action. Telling El how much he cares for her, insisting that everything he does is for her own good, even while locking her into a shock collar whose sole purpose is to electrocute her if she steps out of line, holding that threat of painful, damaging physical punishment over her head in order to control her. Putting it on her, even without ever using it (not that he got the chance, I'm willing to bet he would have used it, if she'd continued to defy him), made it clear to her who is in charge, punishing her for daring to defy him by making decisions for herself instead of always obeying his will. That message came across loud and clear.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Llywela

[Enero]

On 7/1/2022 at 2:35 PM, tennisgurl said:

Poor Will, I don't think that Mike is even close to figuring out how Will feels about him or that he likes him in that kind of way, Will really just cant catch a break

This.  He’s been through so much. Now he’s in love with his best friend who’ll never reciprocate love for him in that way. And who knows how Mike will respond if he does figure out how Will feels about him. That could cause more heartache and angst. I just want to give Will a hug.

Like others, glad Brenner is dead. With Vecna on the scene it was time for him to exit stage left. Cannot believe he was using El to find Vecna, and in turn caused all this chaos. Did Brenner really think he could control him (Vecna) if he got him back? In-sane.

The best thing about the California storyline was Will’s speech and them reuniting with El. Loved her reunion with Will and Mike. El is so badass when she is using her powers. 

The Russian storyline is taking too long to resolve itself. I’ve come very close to fast forwarding those scenes. 

Team Hawkins are in way over their heads. I feel a very strong sense of foreboding and think we’re going to lose one, maybe even two people in this fight. I wonder how the angry jocks will fit into all this. I’d forgotten about them until  Nancy and Erica spotted them at the gun store. 

I suspect this season will end with Vecna opening all the gates and turning real Hawkins into hell on earth. But we’ll see…now off to watch the finale. 
 

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, Enero said:

Cannot believe he was using El to find Vecna, and in turn caused all this chaos. Did Brenner really think he could control him (Vecna) if he got him back? In-sane.

I believe it. Brenner is a scientist. Discovering an alternate dimension would be a huge deal. If the government was giving him a bunch of money and not much supervision of course he is going to investigate that rather than how to spy on Russians. The fact that he is an evil scientist means he is going to use other people and put people at risk all for his work.

[Taryn74]

On 7/4/2022 at 5:13 AM, Llywela said:

The second faction believes Eleven is responsible for the murders in Hawkins - they think she is doing it remotely, because they know she was trained as a remote assassin, so they think she has gone rogue and needs to be put down.

This gave me the thought, could you imagine if Kali/Eight had the ability to cross into the "mind space" the way El did? She would totally be killing people remotely and the government would be justified in going after her. (I really do not like Kali, LOL.)

[Tatum]

On 7/3/2022 at 9:01 PM, janie jones said:

This confused me at first, too. It seems that there were two factions in the lair: Brenner's people and Owens's people. Brenner's people handcuffed Owens, but the military storming the place looking for El (as @eleanorofaquitaine said) was unrelated to Brenner's coup.

Right, the military guy said something like, Mom and Dad have a fight? when they came across Owens handcuffed and beaten.

I don't think Owens trusted Brenner or wanted to work with him, but felt like it was the only option. He couldn't fix El by himself, and El needed to be fixed.

I was sort of hoping El would go back for Owens, or at least mention him, but I guess she had a lot on her mind. I suppose she doesn't know if he's alive at this point so why risk it, but still.

I suppose Mike is fairly typical of a teenage boy, but he is just so oblivious and self centered that it's frustrating to watch.  He is quickly becoming my least favorite character. Even Lucas gets it right occasionally. Speaking of, I found his moment with Erica very sweet. I wish they had more sibling and friend interactions, and didn't bother with any romances.

I loved the version of Separate Ways at the end. Very powerful.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Tatum said:

I loved the version of Separate Ways at the end. Very powerful.

The music this season has been spot on. I don't recall if I felt that way about the previous seasons or if they just used more of my favorites this season. On the other hand, I've never heard the guitar solo Eddie played and thought it was very effective despite not being my cup of tea.

[Tatum]

21 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

The music this season has been spot on. I don't recall if I felt that way about the previous seasons or if they just used more of my favorites this season. On the other hand, I've never heard the guitar solo Eddie played and thought it was very effective despite not being my cup of tea.

Agree! I know a lot of people hated the roller rink scene (both with the bullying/humiliation scene and the apparently historically inaccurate amount of neon and hot pants) but I LOVED it for the music playing. I was more of a 90s kid than 80s (born in 1983), but Baltimora playing made me nostalgic all the same.

[Absurda]

I didn't see the scene with Steve talking about his dreams as foreshadowing of his death, but I did see it as the death of him and Nancy getting together.  They've been moving toward a Steve and Nancy part two all season, but I don't see it happening now.  Nancy is a badass, a fighter and very ambitious.  I just don't see her happily settling down with six kids and a motor home.  I also don't see her settling down with Jonathan, either.  Rather I see her going off to Chicago or New York on her own to be a reporter.  I thought Nancy's face and responses in that scene showed that she's not into it.

3 hours ago, Tatum said:

I suppose Mike is fairly typical of a teenage boy, but he is just so oblivious and self centered that it's frustrating to watch.  He is quickly becoming my least favorite character.

Mike has always been this way, ever since he found Eleven.  I've never really liked him.  In season 1 he demanded that El be considered part of the group whether the others liked it or not.  But in season 2 when Lucas and Dustin wanted Max to be part of the group he threw a hissyfit about it.  His interactions with El feels really possessive and controlling.  Like a watered down version of Papa.

I'm not digging the Russia stuff even though I love Tom Wlaschiha (Dmitri/Enzo).  It feels like a completely separate show, just in the same universe.

[Redrum]

2 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I didn't see the scene with Steve talking about his dreams as foreshadowing of his death, but I did see it as the death of him and Nancy getting together.  They've been moving toward a Steve and Nancy part two all season, but I don't see it happening now.  Nancy is a badass, a fighter and very ambitious.  I just don't see her happily settling down with six kids and a motor home.  I also don't see her settling down with Jonathan, either.  Rather I see her going off to Chicago or New York on her own to be a reporter.  I thought Nancy's face and responses in that scene showed that she's not into it.

Mike has always been this way, ever since he found Eleven.  I've never really liked him.  In season 1 he demanded that El be considered part of the group whether the others liked it or not.  But in season 2 when Lucas and Dustin wanted Max to be part of the group he threw a hissyfit about it.  His interactions with El feels really possessive and controlling.  Like a watered down version of Papa.

I'm not digging the Russia stuff even though I love Tom Wlaschiha (Dmitri/Enzo).  It feels like a completely separate show, just in the same universe.

On Mike. Mike has never been a favorite of mine for similar reasons. I am now going to say something mean and not very politically correct but....the school kids treat Mike like ass because yes they're bullies.... but also because he's an asshole. Mike is all about Mike and what Mike wants, with little to no thought on how it impacts others. Mike is that smart geeky kid in school who treats everyone not in his circle like dumb stooges and isn't shy about making it clear how stupid he thinks you are.

[Tatum]

22 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I didn't see the scene with Steve talking about his dreams as foreshadowing of his death, but I did see it as the death of him and Nancy getting together.  They've been moving toward a Steve and Nancy part two all season, but I don't see it happening now.  Nancy is a badass, a fighter and very ambitious.  I just don't see her happily settling down with six kids and a motor home.  I also don't see her settling down with Jonathan, either.  Rather I see her going off to Chicago or New York on her own to be a reporter.  I thought Nancy's face and responses in that scene showed that she's not into it.

That's a really good point. I have always liked how Nancy's character is really driven, and rarely seems to get sidetracked by whatever relationship she is in. Whether it was school work, or her internship, or her work at the paper- that always came first. I don't think she's compatible with either boy, and it would be great if the series ended with her deciding to do her own thing, rather than waffling between Steve and Jonathan.

24 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I'm not digging the Russia stuff even though I love Tom Wlaschiha (Dmitri/Enzo).  It feels like a completely separate show, just in the same universe.

I feel like it's gotten better since the group consolidated, at least. Even Joyce is funny when she gets teamed up with Murray. But yeah, ready for the mishaps to be over. I did laugh though at Joyce politely referring to the aircraft as "Katinka" when asking how far it had flown. But Yuri's bullshit is getting pretty old, and I realize the rest of the crew thinks they need him, but they are way too patient with him.

[Nashville]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:21 PM, blueray said:

Lastly, I agree next episode will be a lot of getting the characters to Honkins (sp). 

On 7/3/2022 at 8:54 AM, peachmangosteen said:

Hawkins.

Actually, I kinda like Honkins better….  🤡

4 hours ago, Tatum said:

Right, the military guy said something like, Mom and Dad have a fight? when they came across Owens handcuffed and beaten.

I don't think Owens trusted Brenner or wanted to work with him, but felt like it was the only option. He couldn't fix El by himself, and El needed to be fixed.

This gets toward the heart of what I was referring to a while back when I described Owens as “evil with a little ‘e’”.  I have little doubt Owen actually does like and care for El on a personal level to some degree, but I’m also pretty sure Owen has zero problems putting his personal feelings on a shelf should they interfere with the mission at hand - up to and including Brenner subjecting El to drastic measures such as torture or EST to achieve the project’s desired results; Owens might feel bad about it at the time, but he would “needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” rationalize it later as an unfortunate necessity of success.  El is probably one of the most personable tools in Owen’s toolbox, but still nothing more than a tool - to be used as needed, or discarded if no longer useful.

[Hotel Snarker]

1 hour ago, Redrum said:

On Mike. Mike has never been a favorite of mine for similar reasons. I am now going to say something mean and not very politically correct but....the school kids treat Mike like ass because yes they're bullies.... but also because he's an asshole. Mike is all about Mike and what Mike wants, with little to no thought on how it impacts others. Mike is that smart geeky kid in school who treats everyone not in his circle like dumb stooges and isn't shy about making it clear how stupid he thinks you are.

I’m still not getting over how he couldn’t be bothered to stand up for El at the roller rink!

[Tatum]

45 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Actually, I kinda like Honkins better….  🤡

Honkins would be hilarious. If I passed that city sign while driving I would totally stop and take a picture of it.

[SoMuchTV]

21 minutes ago, Tatum said:

Honkins would be hilarious. If I passed that city sign while driving I would totally stop and take a picture of it.

And honk, I hope?

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Actually, I kinda like Honkins better….  🤡

It gave me quite a giggle too. 🙃

[meep.meep]

3 hours ago, Redrum said:

On Mike. Mike has never been a favorite of mine for similar reasons. I am now going to say something mean and not very politically correct but....the school kids treat Mike like ass because yes they're bullies.... but also because he's an asshole. Mike is all about Mike and what Mike wants, with little to no thought on how it impacts others. Mike is that smart geeky kid in school who treats everyone not in his circle like dumb stooges and isn't shy about making it clear how stupid he thinks you are.

Are you saying that Mike is Sheldon Cooper?

I don't think they've ever said if any of these kids (except Nancy) are actually smart academically.

[Tatum]

1 minute ago, meep.meep said:

Are you saying that Mike is Sheldon Cooper?

I don't think they've ever said if any of these kids (except Nancy) are actually smart academically.

Dustin is, right? Didn't he go to some kind of science camp?

[Absurda]

I don't know if Mike is smart academically, per se, but he does seem to think he knows everything.

Dustin is smart since he went to science camp, built the radio in Season 4 and seems to be the only one able to figure out how the upside down and it's various creatures work.

[Taryn74]

36 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

I don't think they've ever said if any of these kids (except Nancy) are actually smart academically.

The four younger boys are. They were in the science club in the first season, and Mike knew how to use physics to flip the car at the mall when everybody else was just trying to push it over LOL. I think it's implied that Dustin is the smartest out of them, though.

[shoovenbooty]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:22 PM, iMonrey said:

Also, what was that collar contraption around Eleven's neck? Someone upthread referred to it as a dampening collar, but Brenner said "I wasn't going to activate it" when Eleven woke up and found it around her neck. And then she was still able to take down the helicopter while wearing it.

If IIRC, Brenner said the collar was being used as a precaution and he wouldn't activate it unless he needed to. In the end, Brenner unlocked the collar so she could remove it, but it was never activated and that's why El was able to take the helicopter down.

[janie jones]

22 hours ago, Absurda said:

Mike has always been this way, ever since he found Eleven.  I've never really liked him.  In season 1 he demanded that El be considered part of the group whether the others liked it or not.  But in season 2 when Lucas and Dustin wanted Max to be part of the group he threw a hissyfit about it.  His interactions with El feels really possessive and controlling.  Like a watered down version of Papa.

22 hours ago, Redrum said:

On Mike. Mike has never been a favorite of mine for similar reasons. I am now going to say something mean and not very politically correct but....the school kids treat Mike like ass because yes they're bullies.... but also because he's an asshole. Mike is all about Mike and what Mike wants, with little to no thought on how it impacts others. Mike is that smart geeky kid in school who treats everyone not in his circle like dumb stooges and isn't shy about making it clear how stupid he thinks you are.

Yeah, I've never liked Mike. He's selfish and he's a jerk, right to people's faces. The fact that he has no compunction about being an asshole to Hopper to his face I find particularly off-putting. He's right to be worried that El will eventually realize she doesn't need him.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 7/6/2022 at 3:49 PM, Nashville said:

Actually, I kinda like Honkins better….  🤡

Does that make HC/One Vecna the Psycho-kinetic Clown?  And the demodogs are the circus animals??

Now I can't get the image of Vecna riding around Honkins in a clown car out of my head ......

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I agree with this very recent discussion about Mike and how he treats people and his relationship with El.

But that brings me around to Will's (supposed) unrequited crush on him.  Other than having been good friends since kindergarten, what does Will see in Mike - at least from a romantic sense POV!?  You can do so much better, dude.

[PurpleTentacle]

Oh poor Will so gay and so in love with a straight guy. And Mike, so oblivious. Hard to watch. Really breaks your heart.

[Clanstarling]

15 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Does that make HC/One Vecna the Psycho-kinetic Clown?  And the demodogs are the circus animals??

Now I can't get the image of Vecna riding around Honkins in a clown car out of my head ......

Well, he does make his victims float...

[SherriAnt]

On 7/7/2022 at 5:40 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Now I can't get the image of Vecna riding around Honkins in a clown car out of my head ......

Or on a tiny tricycle...

I was hoping Owens would stand up for  El against Brenner, with the way he talked to her in California.  But as soon as I saw her hair I knew his kindness was only an act. Good Papa, Bad Papa. 

[Sarah 103]

After the scene where Will tried to explain what El was feeling to Mike, it was pretty clear to me that Will was talking about his own feelings for Mike. At this point, I will am completely on board with the idea that Will is gay and has a crush on Mike. I'm just not sure if Will was figured out that he is gay. 

On 7/1/2022 at 7:24 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I love that no one seemed to think a bunch of teenagers wandering around the gun store snatching up weapons and kerosene was worth even a second glance. 

I get the sense that hunting culture is strong in that community, so that it's sort of normal. Kerosene could have been explained away by the teenagers as supplies for a camping trip, but some of the adults may have suspected it was for prank. 

@SnapHappy-I had the same thought about the redhead too. From certain angles, she looked just like Molly Ringwald, or someone influenced by her style. 

On 7/1/2022 at 10:36 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

I am also a bit curious how the Hawkins crew was able to afford to buy all that firepower. Nancy's family seems well off, but I am not sure they are give your daughter a credit card rich.

Because Nancy seems so smart, responsible, and mostly well-behaved (as far as her parents know,) I could see them giving her a credit card for emergencies, and she would understand that emergencies do not mean a new outfit for a party/date or a sale at the mall. An emgerency means needing to buy something car related when she didn't have enough chash, like a tire or some kind of emergency repair. 

[Taryn74]

12 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

From certain angles, she looked just like Molly Ringwald, or someone influenced by her style. 

Yeah, the costume designer for the show specifically said they were going for Molly Ringwald with her character.

[CCTC]

Molly Ringwald was the first thing I thought of when band girl turned and looked at Robin.  I am guessing from the look on her face she would rather be with Robin but has not fully come to terms with her sexuality.

Not only did Noah act well in the car scene, but it was also really well-written.  I thought it captured what a lot of kids go through when they realize that they are not going to live the life that they learn from birth is normal.   This was when hardly anyone was fully out, there was no gay marriage, and you did not see same-sex couples as parents.  Having a homophobic moment be used as comic relief on TV or a mainstream movie was shrugged off as normal.  

Jonathan's looks in the van were the first time I thought, maybe he can serve some purpose this summer.  While Argyle can be funny, he really is not needed and of all the kids, seems like he is only there so they can check off an 80's film stereotype, and has been given no depth other than doing the comic stoned reaction.   (Kind of the same way the whole way the Soviet Union adventure is just to click off that movie cliche even if it does not really fit into the story well).  The time they spent on Argyle, they could have shown a moment of two of Will and Jonathan having a brotherly moment etc.

Kudos to Matthew Modine, there was part of me that felt a little bad for him when he died without receiving forgiveness, although El was still more kind to him than he deserved.  He really was an evil twisted perverse man who would rationalize anything by saying he was doing it for their best interests.

I would be surprised if Steve does not make it to the final season (guess will find out soon), although not that is has been pointed out, it does have the something someone to be later repeated as he lies dying "we will get that RV wont we Nancy" as she nods trying to hide her tears....   I feel like it was more to advance or thwart getting back together with Nancy.   Now next season, who knows....

Just to add to the chorus - really good use of the Journey song.  Just the slight tweaking they did to it was really effective.  

[Tyro49]

I thought this season was the last one; is there really going to be another? How did you hear about it?

[CCTC]

5 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

I thought this season was the last one; is there really going to be another? How did you hear about it?

At some point in the last year or two they announced they were going to do a season 5, but that will be the final season.  So the next one really will be the final season.  Hopefully it will be released before 2025....

[bijoux]

I cannot believe that they didn't explain how Brenner survived in season 1 in an episode titled Papa. Did I blink and miss this at some point? The dude was as resilient as a demogorgon even in this episode. 

[CeeBeeGee]

On 7/2/2022 at 6:42 AM, Spartan Girl said:

People are already throwing fits over Will not officially coming out this season, despite that whole speech, and accusing the Duffers of queer baiting with Mike/Will. I’d like to remind them that this is 1980s Indiana and Will coming out is a huge step that is obviously terrifying for him. And if Will/Mike probably isn’t going to happen because Mike is obviously invested in El. 

Like you said--1980s Indiana. It would be difficult NOW to come out there.

On 7/2/2022 at 11:57 PM, QuantumMechanic said:

Not to mention that you had James Taylor’s “Fire And Rain” playing under that scene, for God‘s sake!

All the music was spot on this episode. Fantastic choices. And yes, that lovely melancholy Fire and Rain (huge James Taylor fan) was...ominous...

I howled at the sudden appearance of Eddie in the Michael Myers mask--Halloween is one of my all-time favorite movies, I was thrilled to see the shout-out. And the Great Trailer Heist was hilarious--the only thing missing was a banjo theme accompanying it.

[Taryn74]

Reading thru the thread after rewatching this episode, just wanted to comment on a couple of things.

On 7/1/2022 at 9:36 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

I am also a bit curious how the Hawkins crew was able to afford to buy all that firepower. Nancy's family seems well off, but I am not sure they are give your daughter a credit card rich.

Actually I think they were. Jonathan made mention of Mr. Wheeler's "six figure income" job when he and Nancy got fired from the newspaper in S3, which for the mid-80's would have been at least four times the median income for the US. That kind of money in a small midwestern town would really have been big bucks.

On 7/1/2022 at 9:23 AM, Lady Calypso said:

That end scene with Journey playing over it is gonna be one of the iconic musical moments

It still gave me chills.

On 7/1/2022 at 7:56 PM, overtherainbow said:

El's coma explains her manner of speaking. She lost all her memories and had to learn everything again after banishing One to the Upside Down.

I noticed tonight that after she fully regained ALL of her memories in this episode, that she was speaking normally for someone her age rather than the sort of stilted, halting, 'special needs kid' way she had been speaking before. (Sorry for that wording, I couldn't think of a less offensive way to put it and still get the point across.) It was especially evident in her 'YOU are the monster!' speech to Brenner. It was a subtle but well done nod to her lost memories being the reason she was so behind.