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S04.E01: Chapter One: The Hellfire Club


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1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Purely MHO here, but I think these incidents - coupled with some of the Will-centric bits from  S3 - go much deeper than a facile glance at Will’s potential sexual identity issues; they imply a much deeper (and sadder) look into Will’s psyche.

That's the best explanation of how I see Will's behavior yet. Well done.

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In season 3, I thought Robin days Mrs. Click's sophomore English class which would mean Steve failed and had to retake the class since he's a year ahead. He could do that and still graduate in time depending on how many credits they need to graduate and it tracks with his not getting into college and having to work at Scoops and now FV bc of his crappy grades.

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@Nashville, while that is a great analysis and probably a lot of truth, but I thought that girl was being super forward with Will. Were they even friendly? I would have liked to see Will maybe at least being nice to her and for her take it as flirting before she made that move. They are high school freshman, not even upperclassmen. 

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3 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

@Nashville, while that is a great analysis and probably a lot of truth, but I thought that girl was being super forward with Will. Were they even friendly? I would have liked to see Will maybe at least being nice to her and for her take it as flirting before she made that move. They are high school freshman, not even upperclassmen. 

Judging from his reaction I doubt Will knew her name, and it’s entirely possible she didn’t know Will’s name either - nor even care. 😄  
 

Keep the show’s timeline in mind; for many, the norms of social life in early 1986 were still pretty damn hedonistic.  AIDS was just barely beginning to breach the public consciousness (due to Rock Hudson’s death in late 1985), and in those very first days the public massmind was under (or given) the mistaken impression its target vector population was contained within three primary groups -

  1. Gay males,
  2. Haitians, and
  3. Intravenous drug users

- so much of the straight non-Haitian non-drug-shooting majority was still putting the hammer down hard, sex-wise.  😆

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2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Judging from his reaction I doubt Will knew her name, and it’s entirely possible she didn’t know Will’s name either - nor even care. 😄  
 

Keep the show’s timeline in mind; for many, the norms of social life in early 1986 were still pretty damn hedonistic.  AIDS was just barely beginning to breach the public consciousness (due to Rock Hudson’s death in late 1985), and in those very first days the public massmind was under (or given) the mistaken impression its target vector population was contained within three primary groups -

  1. Gay males,
  2. Haitians, and
  3. Intravenous drug users

- so much of the straight non-Haitian non-drug-shooting majority was still putting the hammer down hard, sex-wise.  😆

But they are just out of middle school. Just out. Like I said, maybe upper classmen and college students would be that forward, but Will's age group are young, with some still looking prepubescent. If they friendly with each other, I would understand a bit, but that was too much. 

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As somebody else pointed out earlier (can't find the post atm), there's also the fact that while the footsie thing is happening, Will's friend/sister is standing at the front of the class almost in tears, being bullied. Most people wouldn't be interested in responding to any advances just then, so it's understandable that he wouldn't react regardless of any other factors.

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(edited)
On 6/3/2022 at 10:52 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

But they are just out of middle school. Just out. Like I said, maybe upper classmen and college students would be that forward, but Will's age group are young, with some still looking prepubescent. If they friendly with each other, I would understand a bit, but that was too much. 

For the times?  Not really.  Maybe it’s just a difference in times/generations, but keep the chronological and sociological context in mind:

  1. Viewed in group terms, every young generation is in a hurry to grow up; high-schoolers see/hear what college-age kids are doing and imitate their behavior, junior high students imitate the high-schoolers, and so forth.
  2. The generational groups/subgroups we’re discussing? From college-age on down these were the post-60s / post-hippy / post-disco / Me Generation kids, and they were coming into their own while living in/through the most sexually liberated times in the history of America, before or since.  They had The Pill, they had penicillin, and (to the VAST majority) AIDS was not yet considered a factor; the mindset of the day was “The worst thing that can happen to you is a cold sore that won’t go away” (herpes).  Sex without consequence wasn’t the absolute ruling guide of the day, but it was definitely showing up at the party with a bottle of Jack. ;)

I say all this because to a significant extent, our cast of characters was pretty dern close to my generation; I was part of the last puff of smoke from the Baby Boom, and they were the inaugural class of GenX.  Chronology-wise we were only about 4-5 years apart - one of the reasons I love this show - and I still remember (quasi-fondly) what young life and love were like back then. Everything was moving at 110 mph - at least, until HIV/AIDS slammed on the brakes.

Edited by Nashville
Typo - Gen X, not Gen Z
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Nashville, maybe you mean Gen X, not Gen Z? I was only a year older in 1986 than Mike and his friends, and I remember many kids my age (incl myself) being quite naive and young for our ages, but just as many were much more forward and mature. I know several of my classmates had long-term (well, long-term for teenagers) boyfriends and girlfriends, and there were certainly a few teenage pregnancies in my small-town high school.

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18 minutes ago, Nashville said:

For the times?  Not really.  Maybe it’s just a difference in times/generations, but keep the chronological and sociological context in mind:

  1. Viewed in group terms, every young generation is in a hurry to grow up; high-schoolers see/hear what college-age kids are doing and imitate their behavior, junior high students imitate the high-schoolers, and so forth.
  2. The generational groups/subgroups we’re discussing? From college-age on down these were the post-60s / post-hippy / post-disco / Me Generation kids, and they were coming into their own while living in/through the most sexually liberated times in the history of America, before or since.  They had The Pill, they had penicillin, and (to the VAST majority) AIDS was not yet considered a factor; the mindset of the day was “The worst thing that can happen to you is a cold sore that won’t go away” (herpes).  Sex without consequence wasn’t the absolute ruling guide of the day, but it was definitely showing up at the party with a bottle of Jack. ;)

I say all this because to a significant extent, our cast of characters was pretty dern close to my generation; I was part of the last puff of smoke from the Baby Boom, and they were the inaugural class of GenZ.  Chronology-wise we were only about 4-5 years apart - one of the reasons I love this show - and I still remember (quasi-fondly) what young life and love were like back then. Everything was moving at 110 mph - at least, until HIV/AIDS slammed on the brakes.

4 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

Nashville, maybe you mean Gen X, not Gen Z? I was only a year older in 1986 than Mike and his friends, and I remember many kids my age (incl myself) being quite naive and young for our ages, but just as many were much more forward and mature. I know several of my classmates had long-term (well, long-term for teenagers) boyfriends and girlfriends, and there were certainly a few teenage pregnancies in my small-town high school.

However, always with the "long term" boyfriends and girlfriends in middle to high school, they were always "dancing" around each other. Happened with a few of my friends.  Like, they had some sort of relationship before one made a move. I am bit closer to the "Clueless" characters' ages, so I found Cher's behavior towards flirting with Christian more on point: try to get her crush's attention to get him to engage before initiating a romantic move, and that is only 9 years between those two time periods, and Cher was a couple years older with sexually active friends.

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(edited)

Just starting my binge, so apologies if any of this is repetitive , as I know I'm coming in late. Overall, I enjoyed the episode. At first I was a little bothered by the million new people they seem to be introducing, but by the end I thought it all worked. 

It took me a minute to remember the cheerleader, as I assumed all of the people who were infected by the host demon last season, ultimately died. Of course I guess by the end she did die anyway. 

I see why they placed that warning at the start of the episode, regarding the Uvalde shooting and the show of course being filmed a whole year, possibly year and a half ago. Because yeah, I can see how that would be triggering for some. 

I see the writers are determined to continue their efforts to have the audience care about Nancy and Jonathan as a couple. Sorry, not sorry, I may be in the minority but I don't and I've made my peace that I never will. I think it's because Jonathan as an overall character is just not that interesting. 

Personality transplant or not, once the writers turned Steve into the lovable goofball, he became entertaining and endearing. And the addition of Robin, and their friendship, has only made him more so. But with Jonathan - I don't know if it's the actor, the writing for the character, I just can't feel anything for him. Like Jonathan could be written out of the show and I don't think I'd even notice. 

All the kid actors (though I guess now that most of them are 18 or nearing that, they're not necessarily "kid actors" anymore) continued to do a great job. Watching El be bullied was awful. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Wait, Chrissy was in season 3?

I may be wrong but yeah, I think she was the one whose father I think was Nancy's boss and the whole family got infected because Billy, who was already carrying the host, started dating Nancy. Again I may be wrong but I could swear it was them. 

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1 minute ago, truthaboutluv said:

I may be wrong but yeah, I think she was the one whose father I think was Nancy's boss and the whole family got infected because Billy, who was already carrying the host, started dating Nancy. Again I may be wrong but I could swear it was them. 

She is not listed for any season 3 eps on IMDb. I don’t even remember that family though so I have no idea lol.

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I don't think Chrissy was the cheerleader in season three. I thought that girl was named Robin and was mind flayed and all the mind flayed died. 

They do have a similar blonde cheerleader look but not the same. 

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1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

I may be wrong but yeah, I think she was the one whose father I think was Nancy's boss and the whole family got infected because Billy, who was already carrying the host, started dating Nancy. Again I may be wrong but I could swear it was them. 

I don't know if the cheerleader was in season 3 - but...the dad in that portrait sure looked like someone from season 3. I couldn't place the guy - Nancy's boss maybe, but I don't know. Still, I don't think it was random that they focused on the portrait for a moment during the cheerleader's visions.

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(edited)
3 hours ago, Redrum said:

I don't think Chrissy was the cheerleader in season three. I thought that girl was named Robin and was mind flayed and all the mind flayed died.

Heather the lifeguard? We see her disintegrate and become part of the Flesh Golem, and Jason mentions her in his pep rally speech as one of the people who died in the "mall fire." Chrissy is a different, new character.

Edited by Dev F
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2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

but...the dad in that portrait sure looked like someone from season 3.

Someone mentioned....somewhere.....in one of the threads.....that they paid homage to someone who had died of Covid (I think??) by having him be the father in the portrait. I don't remember enough specifics to look it up but I remember reading it.

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2 hours ago, Dev F said:

Heather the lifeguard? We see her disintegrate and become part of the Flesh Golem, and Jason mentions her in his pep rally speech as one of the people who died in the "mall fire." Chrissy is a different, new character.

I did go through the character list on IMDB for all the previous seasons, looking for the name "Cunningham" (wiki says she's Chrissy Cunningham). I didn't see any character listed by that last name. So I guess it was wrong. A tribute sounds more likely, at this point - odd though it is.

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On 6/4/2022 at 3:15 PM, Capricasix said:

Nashville, maybe you mean Gen X, not Gen Z? I was only a year older in 1986 than Mike and his friends, and I remember many kids my age (incl myself) being quite naive and young for our ages, but just as many were much more forward and mature. I know several of my classmates had long-term (well, long-term for teenagers) boyfriends and girlfriends, and there were certainly a few teenage pregnancies in my small-town high school.

Gen X, we are the forgotten generation. In middle school I had boyfriends, long term ones in high school, two that were over a year relationship. Also quite a few teen pregnancies in my high school.

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On 6/3/2022 at 6:15 PM, Nashville said:

Judging from his reaction I doubt Will knew her name, and it’s entirely possible she didn’t know Will’s name either - nor even care. 😄 

It's right before spring break. I would hope they'd have learned their classmates' names by then!

On 6/4/2022 at 2:30 AM, silverstream said:

As somebody else pointed out earlier (can't find the post atm), there's also the fact that while the footsie thing is happening, Will's friend/sister is standing at the front of the class almost in tears, being bullied. Most people wouldn't be interested in responding to any advances just then, so it's understandable that he wouldn't react regardless of any other factors.

That was me who mentioned that. I wouldn't want someone I was totally into to come on to me in a situation like that. It was fucking weird.

23 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I see the writers are determined to continue their efforts to have the audience care about Nancy and Jonathan as a couple. Sorry, not sorry, I may be in the minority but I don't and I've made my peace that I never will. I think it's because Jonathan as an overall character is just not that interesting. 

Personality transplant or not, once the writers turned Steve into the lovable goofball, he became entertaining and endearing. And the addition of Robin, and their friendship, has only made him more so. But with Jonathan - I don't know if it's the actor, the writing for the character, I just can't feel anything for him. Like Jonathan could be written out of the show and I don't think I'd even notice.

It bothers me how quickly Nancy got over the fact that Johnathan was in the bushes taking pictures of all of them in season 1, especially once she noticed he'd gotten a picture of the demogorgon. He never really apologized adequately, just acted like it wasn't a big deal because it was artistic or something. Most of the other characters have undergone some sort of change, but he still seems like he'd take pictures of people through their windows.

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2 hours ago, janie jones said:

It bothers me how quickly Nancy got over the fact that Johnathan was in the bushes taking pictures of all of them in season 1, especially once she noticed he'd gotten a picture of the demogorgon. He never really apologized adequately, just acted like it wasn't a big deal because it was artistic or something. Most of the other characters have undergone some sort of change, but he still seems like he'd take pictures of people through their windows.

lmao... It's funny because it's accurate. 

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On 6/5/2022 at 8:12 PM, janie jones said:

It's right before spring break. I would hope they'd have learned their classmates' names by then!

You would hope but it's actually completely realistic. I had students (8th grade) this year in the last week of school who still didn't know classmates names bc they just didn't care. One was sitting directly across from the student they didn't know the name of and had been for over a month. 

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(edited)

From Mr. Wheeler's comment about Mike's "sweetie pie", evidently they know he has a girlfriend living with the Byers family; what exactly do the parents think the story is there?

Edited by SeanC
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13 hours ago, SeanC said:

From Mr. Wheeler's comment about Mike's "sweetie pie", evidently they know he has a girlfriend living with the Byers family; what exactly do the parents think the story is there?

Good question. I'd imagine it was that she was Hopper's daughter (they wouldn't know - doubt they moved in the same circles before everything happened) and that after he died Joyce took her in.

But that leaves out other interactions they may have had and I may have forgotten.

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On 5/27/2022 at 1:26 PM, Clanstarling said:

I felt so sorry for Ell (Jane). The teacher could have been a lot better in the classroom.

This. My husband was yelling at the teacher through the screen that she needed to handle the situation and stifle that bitchy girl.

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5 hours ago, mirandroid said:

This. My husband was yelling at the teacher through the screen that she needed to handle the situation and stifle that bitchy girl.

I was the one fuming and yelling and hubby was reminding me it's just a tv show. I've worked with shitty teachers and shitty ones on tv make me just as mad as those I've worked with. 

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(edited)

This is just a small thing, but they are a decade too late to be drinking TaB. Diet Coke displaced it in 1982. I'm sure they still made it but no high school kid would be drinking it. Sometimes the show just throws "nostalgia" in for the sake of nostalgia.

Quote

In short (I know - too late), I don’t think Will at this point is necessarily straight OR gay; psychologically, he’s still locked in in a relatively asexual prepubescent state. 

Did you notice that his school project was about Alan Turing? I think the signs are pointing pretty strongly to gay. If not, they are deliberately messing with us.

Edited by iMonrey
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(edited)
2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is just a small thing, but they are a decade too late to be drinking TaB. Diet Coke displaced it in 1982. I'm sure they still made it but no high school kid would be drinking it.

What about Marty McFly?

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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21 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm not so sure about Tab. I remember it being on shelves and not completely displaced quite yet.

Agreed. I was born in '74 and I can remember Tab commercials when I was a tween/teen.

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5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is just a small thing, but they are a decade too late to be drinking TaB. Diet Coke displaced it in 1982. I'm sure they still made it but no high school kid would be drinking it. Sometimes the show just throws "nostalgia" in for the sake of nostalgia.

Did you notice that his school project was about Alan Turing? I think the signs are pointing pretty strongly to gay. If not, they are deliberately messing with us.

In 1986 I don't think Alan Turing would be that iconic gay tragic figure he is today, so while I am sure its a call out to the 2022 audience, it wouldn't be a great clue to someone in 1986. Now a boy doing a report on Judy Garland.... that's a gay red flag for 1986 ;)

Not that my brother did reports on Judy Garland but....

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(edited)
52 minutes ago, Redrum said:

In 1986 I don't think Alan Turing would be that iconic gay tragic figure he is today, so while I am sure its a call out to the 2022 audience, it wouldn't be a great clue to someone in 1986. Now a boy doing a report on Judy Garland.... that's a gay red flag for 1986 ;)

Not that my brother did reports on Judy Garland but....

I think the argument is that it's a hint to the audience, not a hint to any of the characters. Similar to how an eight-year-old in Indiana in 1979 would certainly not have been aware that the rainbow flag had debuted as a symbol of gay pride at the San Francisco Pride Parade less than a year earlier, but it's still a pretty big hint to the audience that Joyce was "so proud" of his "rainbow ship."

I mean, it's not like the writers originally conceived of the character of Will as struggling with "sexual identity issues," and then accidentally kept inserting references to gay symbols and gay historical figures and whatnot in reference to him!

Edited by Dev F
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They were still making Tab, but young people were drinking Diet Coke. My two best friends were still in high school in 86 and they were big Diet Coke drinkers. That being said, I didn't notice it in the episode. Where were they drinking it?

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(edited)
19 hours ago, festivus said:

They were still making Tab, but young people were drinking Diet Coke. My two best friends were still in high school in 86 and they were big Diet Coke drinkers. That being said, I didn't notice it in the episode. Where were they drinking it?

I thought that if people from the mid-1980's couldn't get a Tab they would then typically order a Pepsi Free? 😄

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I thought that if people from the mid-1980's couldn't get a Tab they would then typically order a Pepsi Free? 😄

"If you want a Pepsi pall you're gonna have to pay for it." 

"Look, just give me something without any sugar in it"

(doing this from memory)

Was Tab less expensive? At the start the McFly family is lower middle class, so it would make sense if the go to soda in the house was the less expensive version. 

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Well, I asked where the teens were drinking TaB because if it was at home I could see the parents still buying it and kids drinking what was there. If at school, naw dawg. It would be Diet Coke.

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On 6/9/2022 at 1:58 PM, festivus said:

They were still making Tab, but young people were drinking Diet Coke. My two best friends were still in high school in 86 and they were big Diet Coke drinkers. That being said, I didn't notice it in the episode. Where were they drinking it?

In my friend group diet soda wasn't a thing.  Heck, Pepsi wasn't really that popular.  We were a full sugar coca-cola crew all the way!  In a pinch we'd do a Fanta.  But then Cherry Coke came out and that was all we'd have for awhile.  But we just thought diet soda was for mothers and it tasted funny.

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Are you guys saying that Tab was not cool and kids would not have wanted to be caught dead drinking it? Or that it's gross, so who would drink it? I don't understand why people wouldn't be drinking Tab.

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1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

In my friend group diet soda wasn't a thing.  Heck, Pepsi wasn't really that popular.  We were a full sugar coca-cola crew all the way!  In a pinch we'd do a Fanta.  But then Cherry Coke came out and that was all we'd have for awhile.  But we just thought diet soda was for mothers and it tasted funny.

Same. I hate diet soda and I still do. But my friends were all about it so I would find it realistic if they were drinking Diet Coke at school. Personally, I drank a lot of Peach Nehi. That was my thing. (And New Coke. Till it was sadly taken away from me. 😭) Like I said, I didn't notice the TaB thing but it would seem like another thing thrown in to be "80s" when it was more movie 80s and not the real thing. I've made my peace with the show doing that.

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53 minutes ago, janie jones said:

Are you guys saying that Tab was not cool and kids would not have wanted to be caught dead drinking it? Or that it's gross, so who would drink it? I don't understand why people wouldn't be drinking Tab.

No.  Only that this takes place in 1986.  Tab soda was a Coca-Cola product and that when Diet Coke was produced in 1982, that became much more popular and Coke began limiting production on Tab.  While it was still produced, by 1986 when this season takes place, Tab most likely would not have been the ascendant soda.  It it not out of the question that it would still be bought or available, but less likely than if it had been replaced by Diet Coke in consumer households, especially since advertising really would have been pushing Diet Coke.

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