S42.E13: It Comes Down to This

[Whimsy]

Quote

After a grueling, accelerated 26-day season filled with new twists and advantages, castaways navigate their way to the final 3 and then the final vote where one is crowned the Sole Survivor.

Original airdate 5/25/22

This is slated as a 3 hour finale.  I don't know if it's show and reunion, or just show, so this is your topic for the entire three hours.

[Carey]

Maryanne totally won with FTC, but proceeded to perform as if she didn't just yet. Nice!

[Guest]

That was a decent finale with an acceptable outcome. Felt like it dragged a bit in the middle, between Lindsay's vote-out and the final tribal (except for Romeo's surprise win). It just seemed like a whole lot of Mike talking XD

Maryanne's a fine winner, and was my second choice out of the final 5, so that's not too bad. Lindsay was my first choice, but she went out well. Glad she had one final moment of triumph with being the only one to solve the word puzzle and find the advantage. If I was a bitter, petty person, I might point out that Mike's winning puzzle seemed a lot more out of whack than Lindsay's, but oh well. It seemed like they went out of their way to show the jury being sad when Lindsay was voted out - possibly just to show that the other 4 made the right choice in voting her out, but possibly a sign that she'll be invited back. Hopefully not in the same season where Jonathan inevitably comes back.

I felt a bit bad for Mike because it seemed like you could see the moment during the final TC where he had a realization that "hmm, maybe I didn't play the game as honorably as I thought" which must be kind of hard to accept. But his attitude in losing was pretty cool, I thought.

And finally, Tori's Therapist Affirmation faces and noises whenever anyone, especially Romeo, was talking 😆

Edited May 26, 2022 by tracyscott76

[LadyChatts]

Overall this season was great, and MaryAnne winning capped it off nicely.  She owned it at the FTC, and if the jury truly was undecided, I can see why she won them over.  Romeo didn't do too terribly, either, although I knew he had a huge uphill battle.  Mike really thought he had it, but smart of him to switch gears on the whole integrity thing.  Clearly had made one too many handshake deals. 

I wasn't sorry Lindsay went when she did.  She got played, and clearly she was bitter about it, but I was actually happy she lost to Mike.  Judging by the reaction from the jury when she was voted off, MaryAnne made the right decision not to save her with her idol.  I was actually almost expecting that, after Mike played his for her.  Which was also surprising, because I thought either he would play it for Jonathan, or play it for the sake of playing it.  And kudos to Romeo, it seemed like people bought his fake idol.  I was really glad that he won the final IC, because I couldn't stomach anymore 'I love you's' and anything that involved the word 'ship' in it from Mike and Jonathan.  

When Jonathan whispered to the jury about Jeff reading the votes there, I thought he really didn't know that's how it was done now.  I forgot this cast didn't see last season yet, so he thought he was kidding, but then Jeff surprised them.  I miss the live audience, sort of, and the pre-jurors being included, but I loved the raw emotion of them getting to see who won right then and there, and not have months to prepare.  This reunion show seemed like it had lots of time compared to season's past (even last season).  Can't wait until the fall already!  Until then, I'll slowly kill IQ points this summer while watching Big Brother.

Edited May 26, 2022 by LadyChatts

[KeithJ]

I guess I’m ok with Maryanne winning but I still don’t really see any gameplay from her.  Even when she was asked specifically what big move she orchestrated to get to the end she went back to the Omar vote even though it was already discussed that she wasn’t the one that brought it up (although she may have been thinking about it).  I also don’t see why the jury would have been swayed because she had an idol she didn’t need to play because Mike kept his word with her.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Brendan Birch said:

I'll enjoy the summer, but then . . . it's on to Survivor 43!  Hope that this cast also delivers!

I actually resented the brief looks we got at the new cast, because I liked this cast so much. Too soon! Let's revel in this bunch for a while longer!

[Carey]

6 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

I guess I’m ok with Maryanne winning but I still don’t really see any gameplay from her.  Even when she was asked specifically what big move she orchestrated to get to the end she went back to the Omar vote even though it was already discussed that she wasn’t the one that brought it up (although she may have been thinking about it).  I also don’t see why the jury would have been swayed because she had an idol she didn’t need to play because Mike kept his word with her.

What probably helped Maryanne was her being a super-nice person, who basically never gets to the end.  And if someone does, they'd lose to a person that crushed the social game and/or the strategic game.  Mike and Romeo did not do that.

Add that to her handle of FTC and never really stabbing anyone in the back, and it was her game to lose.  In handle of FTC I mean that she was prepared with her responses, never hesitated, and within her responses, it was full of substance.  No BS there.  Does that win against the greats in the past?  Depends on the past and their games, but it was rather brilliant here

Edited May 26, 2022 by Carey
Explanation of final tribal council Handle

[dizzyd]

15 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

I guess I’m ok with Maryanne winning but I still don’t really see any gameplay from her.  Even when she was asked specifically what big move she orchestrated to get to the end she went back to the Omar vote even though it was already discussed that she wasn’t the one that brought it up (although she may have been thinking about it).  I also don’t see why the jury would have been swayed because she had an idol she didn’t need to play because Mike kept his word with her.

I don’t think it was that she had a big move besides blindsiding Omar, it’s that for someone who talks as much as she does, she was able to fool the everyone into thinking she had no game when she was taking active steps to protect herself and was even able to keep her HII a secret. Lesson to all future players, keep your idols and advantages a secret, it can make the difference between winning and losing and if you haven’t learned after however many seasons these HIIs and advantages have been part of the game then don’t even bother going on the show. 

I hope we never go back to the live winner reveal. It’s a waste of time watching Mr. Jeff copter the urn from Fiji to LA and chat up some alums paid to make an appearance in the audience and ask some random kid who’s going to win. This is better and feels more authentic and emotions are raw. They should have been given some alcohol wipes before the pizza and champagne though.

Lindsey’s biggest mistake was not saving Omar with her idol last week or she’d have had the numbers to win. I still don’t get why she didn’t use it because it was her last chance to use it. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by dizzyd

[North of Eden]

To be 100% happy with the winner...its been so very long...Thank you Mary Anne!

Yes I would agree with anyone who says her romantic  misadventures are over. I just hope she has someone to watch her back for all the gold digging Tom, Dick and Harry's about to come out of the wood work.

Sidebar: Romeo winning the final immunity feels all kinds of wrong. I can just imagine the forehead slapping from production when the other three bobbled their balls so quickly leading to that outcome....Romeo was putting all kinds of spin on it but at the end of the day the only reason he was on that platform at all was because he was being dragged their as a goat and managed to get a four leaf clover in one hand and a horse shoe in the other. With that said I almost did feel a a little sympathy for him when Probst was pointing out his zero vote total.

I was so puzzled when Mary Anne didn't save Lindsey and there was no explanation on camera...but it made sense after seeing it was her trump card to win the game and it worked! She did the one thing I always wanted to see...not tell a single living soul she had it. Well played young woman!

Mike seemed the only one not enthused at the live vote reveal. Me-thinks he had a fantasy in his mind of showing his fiance and kids around Hollywood and then going on the live reunion show and that went down in flames.

Well Jeff actually managed to talk to everyone at least twice I believe but his fixation on Omar was bizarre and not really wanted.

In closing excellent season...one of the best in many years and the brief flash of next season's contestants made me realize how much I'm going to miss everyone on the stage after seeing them week in and week out....except Hai of course who remains a pompous windbag enamored of the sound of his own voice.

See you at the SURVIVOR/TAR double header....Weds are gonna be great!

[AntFTW]

24 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

I wasn't sorry Lindsay went when she did.  She got played, and clearly she was bitter about it, but I was actually happy she lost to Mike.

I liked Lindsay and I hoped that she would have, at least, made it to final 4. However, I understand that Lindsay was a harder person to beat in the end and therefore she had to go. Lindsay got complacent.

Edited May 26, 2022 by AntFTW

[KaveDweller]

16 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

I guess I’m ok with Maryanne winning but I still don’t really see any gameplay from her.  Even when she was asked specifically what big move she orchestrated to get to the end she went back to the Omar vote even though it was already discussed that she wasn’t the one that brought it up (although she may have been thinking about it).  I also don’t see why the jury would have been swayed because she had an idol she didn’t need to play because Mike kept his word with her.

I thought Maryanne should have responded to Jonathan that even if he and Mike first brought up voting for Omar, she is the one that actually did it. Anyone can sit around talking about taking out a threat, but Mike and Jonathan got scared and backed off. Ideas aren't the same as moves. Maryanne made it happen.

[TVFan1]

I'm glad Maryanne pulled out the win. I didn't really like anyone in the Final Five, besides Maryanne and Lindsay. At least someone I was rooting for won. Maryanne owned that FTC and was very articulate in her words to the jury explaining her game moves. A very deserving winner for me.

[30 Helens]

25 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

I guess I’m ok with Maryanne winning but I still don’t really see any gameplay from her.  

1. She put together the Omar vote. Doesn’t matter if others were talking about it, she is the one who did it.
2. She kept her idol a secret. Knowledge is power, and she didn’t give that power away.
3. She didn’t use her idol to save Lindsay, even though she said she wanted Lindsay in her Final 3.. She knew that Lindsay would get a lot of jury votes, so it was smarter to vote her out (which she did).
4. Before she started making moves at the end, she played a goat game, getting people to underestimate her so she would be safe. This placed her in a perfect position to start executing some solid endgame play.
5. She answered the jury questions in a way that played up her strengths and swayed their votes.

Way to go, MaryAnne. You were favorite since almost the start, and I’m thrilled you pulled it off.

[Lantern7]

Good season, even with Probst insisting on thrusting himself into the game directly and otherwise. After all the new gimmicks, I say he's the weak point of the show.

Maryanne for the win. Second straight woman to get the million bucks . . . and unlike Erika, I can pick her out of a crowd. I get how she can grate, I get how the other players would get annoyed, but she was just the cuddliest player in recent memory. She laughed, she cried, she brought up bunnies too many times, and she played the hell out of the game. And I was wrong about her revealing her idol on the FTC. I think this may be the best non-play of an advantage in the show's history. Auction, schmauction, I hope she got to keep it.

I get the criticisms of most of the players (particularly Mike and Jonathan), but I feel we got a good bunch this season. With that said, I'm thinking S43 will try to knock the kumbayah out of its participants.

Anyone else think Romeo's final Immunity win is this generation's Lil Morris beating Jon on Day 38 of S7? Of course, I don't think there's much in the way of strategy when it comes to the ball machine (for lack of a better term). Just make sure you space your balls out (*snicker*) and stop their motion before removal and reinsertion (*chortle*). Mike going out almost immediately was embarrassing.

As much as the Reunions could grate, I kind of miss them. I feel Maryanne deserved to bask in the love of a studio audience. We also would have been reminded about Jackson and . . . whathisface . . . the guy that looked like he was related to Quentin Tarantino and caved in to Hai rather than drawing rocks.

Someone on the live thread thought more than pizza should have been served. I agree, but pizza is easy to handle. Also, you had the potential to see if Mike would channel Tina Fey in one episode of 30 Rock, folding an entire pie to devour. "Dear God, he's unhinging his jaw!!!"

I'm hoping S43 can build off of this season's success, but I'm not willing to bet on it. Plus side: if it sucks, we'll still have TAR34!

[Ms Blue Jay]

Sandra = 2

Tony = 2

Canada = 2

[AntFTW]

9 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

As much as the Reunions could grate, I kind of miss them. I feel Maryanne deserved to bask in the love of a studio audience.

Canada gets no love. Two winners, back to back... and they get no live audience. No family running on stage. No glam squad and looking pretty for the final vote count. Wow!

Just kidding! lol

5 minutes ago, Brendan Birch said:

Daniel.  Voted out right before the merge.

I remember nothing before the merge.

[Nashville]

Excellent summation, @30 Helens.  Just a few personal observations regarding Maryanne’s gameplay:

3 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

1. She put together the Omar vote. Doesn’t matter if others were talking about it, she is the one who did it.

Many folks here seemed to think this move of Maryanne’s was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I have to say - I saw this move as, simply put, very competent strategically.  Maryanne was aware that the Lindsay/Omar pair vs. the Jonathan/Mike pair amounted to a 2/2 split regardless of how cast - so as long as Maryanne could get Romeo to agree on a particular target, their 3 votes (her two + Romeo) would carry the day.  Well-observed?  Definitely - but hardly groundbreaking.

3 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

2. She kept her idol a secret. Knowledge is power, and she didn’t give that power away.

IMHO this in conjunction with #5 was what won Maryanne the season (more on that later).

3 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

3. She didn’t use her idol to save Lindsay, even though she said she wanted Lindsay in her Final 3.. She knew that Lindsay would get a lot of jury votes, so it was smarter to vote her out (which she did).

Again - good basic strategy, but hardly groundbreaking.

3 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

4. Before she started making moves at the end, she played a goat game, getting people to underestimate her so she would be safe. This placed her in a perfect position to start executing some solid endgame play.

Not arguing the accuracy of this statement at all, but the same could be said (to a lesser extent) of Romeo. 
 

3 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

5. She answered the jury questions in a way that played up her strengths and swayed their votes.

THIS is were i think Maryanne really pulled off the win, when she pulled that never-before-revealed HII out of her pocket.  P. T. Barnum would’ve given Maryanne props for that particular bit of showmanship, and IMHO the impact of that particular reveal right before the FTC votes were cast was what gave Maryanne a lock on the win - the jury was almost unanimously bowled over, and casting their votes before the panache had worn off.  Kudos, Maryanne.  👍🏻

[DEL901]

13 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Sandra = 2

Tony = 2

Canada = 2

Canadian women = 2. :)

I like to think that tomorrow MaryAnne and Erika will be hanging out.  And maybe they’ll invite Omar who apparently lives only 10 minutes from MaryAnne.    

Now that was how you handle a jury.  Own your moves and give them a few surprises such as an idol no one knows about.  Mike talked about playing an honourable game, but it was MaryAnne who wouldn’t lie to his face about who she was voting for last week.  

And I think she is one of the youngest winners at 23.  

[Nashville]

One last lingering question: is Maryanne the first person to win the season without ever winning a single challenge?

[DEL901]

1 minute ago, Nashville said:

THIS is were i think Maryanne really pulled off the win, when she pulled that never-before-revealed HII out of her pocket.  P. T. Barnum would’ve given Maryanne props for that particular bit of showmanship, and IMHO the impact of that particular reveal right before the FTC votes were cast was what gave Maryanne a lock on the win - the jury was almost unanimously bowled over, and casting their votes before the panache had worn off.  Kudos, Maryanne.  👍🏻

I think the idol reveal was especially compelling because I think a lot of people wrote her off as an air head who said every thought that passed through her head.   She gave a glimpse of that deepens in the tribal where Tori went home, but not everyone was there to witness it…including the other f4.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

6 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

Canadian women = 2. :)

I like to think that tomorrow MaryAnne and Erika will be hanging out.  And maybe they’ll invite Omar who apparently lives only 10 minutes from MaryAnne.    

Drea also lives in Montreal.  Not close to Maryanne and Omar at all but --- still a cool fact.

CBS lists Omar as Kitchener and Maryanne as Ajax.  They'd be more like 2 hours apart, but maybe one of them is in school somewhere close to the other.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[choclatechip45]

I'm happy Maryanne won. I enjoyed watching her all season and it's nice to follow her journey rather than last season when they barley showed Erika for the first half of the season. I agree with Jeff that was one of the better final tribal councils no personal insults just straight gameplay. 

[DEL901]

From the ew.com final 5 interviews….MaryAnne really was a lot more strategic throughout the game than it appeared. 
 

15 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Drea also lives in Montreal.  Not close to Maryanne and Omar at all but --- still a cool fact.

CBS lists Omar as Kitchener and Maryanne as Ajax.  They'd be more like 2 hours apart, but maybe one of them is in school somewhere close to the other.

It was Omar who said in an interview  they are 10 minutes apart.  One was from Whitby and the other Ajax.  But it makes sense he is in school in Kitchener or maybe that was for work.   There can’t be that many jobs for a vet who specializes in exotic birds. 

[TOL]

One of the best seasons of Survivor ever.  The lesson here is that casting a bunch of diverse, likable people rather then going deliberately for the assholes because they’re controversial or the beauty queens/ hot bartenders who just want to lay in the sun and flirt provides a much more relatable show.  I hated the twists in 41 but I was used to them by 42 and it’s true- it shakes up the routine of the basic tribal council.  We had some really memorable tribal councils too!  
I can honestly say that I wouldn’t have been mad if any of the out of that jury won, but I’m happy it was Marianne.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

32 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

It was Omar who said in an interview  they are 10 minutes apart.  One was from Whitby and the other Ajax.  But it makes sense he is in school in Kitchener or maybe that was for work.   There can’t be that many jobs for a vet who specializes in exotic birds. 

LOL, thanks!  I had no idea that's what he does.

[LoveLeigh]

Maryanne won... I liked her. She was good hearted and smart. There was nothing about her to hate. I was hoping Mike would win but whatever. No favorite player or a Sia award? 

I hate that they do not have the reunion months after they finished filming because I like seeing them cleaned up and having gained weight. They become unrecognizable. 

[Primetimer]

Just posted: Primetimer's Joe Reid weighs in on Maryanne's win, and how Survivor juries have evolved to seek out the game beneath the game.
https://www.primetimer.com/features/survivor-42-crowns-a-winner-and-cements-a-new-survivor-archetype

[rr2911]

I remember watching the Pittsburg Steelers and the Okland Raiders play in a playoff game back in 1972 when Terry Bradshaw threw a pass that ricocheted off a Raider player and into the hands of Franco Harris who ran it in for the winning touchdown.  It was a lucky play for the Steelers.  That's what happened in Survivor.  Maryanne won by luck, but it wasn't just one lucky play.  It was 3.

.  The "Tribal Council" heard around the world surely set the stage.

.  Mike played the idol for Maryanne instead of Lindsey.  Sure, Maryanne would've played her idol, but Lindsey would've been saved and a very good chance she would've won Survivor.

.  Romeo makes a boneheaded decision to pick Maryanne instead of Jonathon.  Romeo even admitted that taking Maryanne would be a huge risk because she is well liked.

We the viewer of course have the advantage of knowing who has an idol or what alliances players are in, but wasn't Romeo aware that everyone liked Maryanne and picking her to sit next to him was basically giving the 1 million to her?  Sure, Maryanne orchestrated voting out Omar, but comparing resumes, Mike had a better one than Maryanne.

Oh well, sometimes the ball bounces funny into the waiting hands of someone undeserving.  That's the way it goes.  Today's Survivor is a game where a trend was set, quotas have to be met and it doesn't seem to be going back to the game that I started watching 42 seasons ago.  Not the worst season, but certainly not one of the best. 

Here's to season 43, may it produce a deserving winner.     

Edited May 26, 2022 by rr2911

[Steph Sometimes]

My fear was that the three guys would be the final 3 when I felt that Lindsay and Maryanne played better than them. So happy that Romeo chose Maryanne.

The bad thing about these kinds of reunions is no opportunity for a Zach/Maryanne reunion scene. 

This was an amazing group of people. Would've been happy with many of them winning. And returning.

I'm happy with this season. I feel like a bunny rabbit eating dinner in the mailbox.

[eskimo]

Hey, does anybody happen to know how long Mike's been waiting for this?  

[eskimo]

The main thing I miss about the old after show is that the players have seen the season air. They're privy to things they aren't while still on the island.   I'd like to know if any opinions have changed.   

[Mediocre Gatsby]

23 minutes ago, eskimo said:

The main thing I miss about the old after show is that the players have seen the season air. They're privy to things they aren't while still on the island.   I'd like to know if any opinions have changed.   

That's a good point, and maybe why the juries concentrate so much now on trying to get the final 3 to articulate their game strategy. Since they didn't get to see much of it. 

Also it hasn't been very long, now, since the jury was playing themselves. They don't have much emotional distance, which is why, I think, Jonathan didn't raise his hand when Jeff asked if anyone was undecided. He came onto the jury determined to vote for Mike and having no interest, seemingly, in what Romeo or Maryanne had to say for themselves. 

[GaT]

I'm so glad nobody voted for Romeo, I hate that he made it to the end. I'm so so on Maryanne winning, I find her so annoying that I wish it was someone else.

[LadyChatts]

58 minutes ago, eskimo said:

The main thing I miss about the old after show is that the players have seen the season air. They're privy to things they aren't while still on the island.   I'd like to know if any opinions have changed.   

Yeah, I kind of have a love/hate relationship with this format.  I do love the reading of the vote live, because you get way more raw emotion.  I've always believed that whoever wins likely knows they are winning, and people who lost can brace themselves for it.  I also posted that I miss seeing the pre-jurors, even though they are mostly there as an afterthought (though Probst might have actually had stuff to talk about with them this season).  I know Probst said once that CBS didn't want the reunion show to continue, probably to save costs, and I'm assuming a good chunk of viewers tune out as soon as they know the result (which can impact advertising).  That's why the reunion show was starting later than it use to.  COVID was the reason for this format starting up, but this may be what is needed to have a 3 hour finale and keep the reunion show around.  I posted this in the chat thread, but I also think all of the Survivor castaways had a fee paid for attending the reunion, so again, this probably saves CBS money.  I don't miss all the useless filler of Probst talking to the audience, or picking some "random" kid who somehow always correctly guessed the winner.  But yeah, I do kind of miss the vibe of a live audience.

My biggest hope for next season is to have Ponderosa back.  I feel like we missed a good one this season. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by LadyChatts

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, rr2911 said:

I remember watching the Pittsburg Steelers and the Okland Raiders play in a playoff game back in 1972 when Terry Bradshaw threw a pass that ricocheted off a Raider player and into the hands of Franco Harris who ran it in for the winning touchdown.  It was a lucky play for the Steelers.  That's what happened in Survivor.  Maryanne won by luck, but it wasn't just one lucky play.  It was 3.

.  The "Tribal Council" heard around the world surely set the stage.

.  Mike played the idol for Maryanne instead of Lindsey.  Sure, Maryanne would've played her idol, but Lindsey would've been saved and a very good chance she would've won Survivor.

.  Romeo makes a boneheaded decision to pick Maryanne instead of Jonathon.  Romeo even admitted that taking Maryanne would be a huge risk because she is well liked.

We the viewer of course have the advantage of knowing who has an idol or what alliances players are in, but wasn't Romeo aware that everyone liked Maryanne and picking her to sit next to him was basically giving the 1 million to her?  Sure, Maryanne orchestrated voting out Omar, but comparing resumes, Mike had a better one than Maryanne.

Oh well, sometimes the ball bounces funny into the waiting hands of someone undeserving.  That's the way it goes.  Today's Survivor is a game where a trend was set, quotas have to be met and it doesn't seem to be going back to the game that I started watching 42 seasons ago.  Not the worst season, but certainly not one of the best. 

Here's to season 43, may it produce a deserving winner.     

The Tribal Council where Drea and Maryanne played their idols didn't seem to have much impact on anything. Unless I missed something, Maryanne did not cite it or anything having to do with race as having anything to do with why she was a deserving winner. Of the people who knew about it because they were there, Jonathan still voted Mike. Tori and Lindsey ended up voting Maryanne, but there's no reason to believe that either voted for her at all because of that tribal council. Indeed, if anything, Tori should be salty because that TC led to her getting voted off. I suppose one could say that Black solidarity might have led to Rocksroy and Drea voting Maryanne, but that solidarity didn't stop Maryanne from voting Drea out. If we believe the jury, most of them did not have their minds made up going in. They were in fact leaning towards Mike.

The turning point was when Maryanne explained how she got to the final three by keeping her idol in reserve and not telling anyone about it. Convincing people to change their minds isn't luck. It's skill.

The fact is, Maryanne is a far more persuasive speaker in general than the two people she faced. If the challenge was for her to make an argument why one of her competitors was the better choice, she would have likely outdone both Mike and Romeo. Mike seems to be pretty shallow when it comes to his thinking. If he had taken ownership of his hypocrisy and backstabbing, he possibly would have done better. But instead he acted like he only lied the once, when that was obviously not true, even after it was pointed out to him that it was not true.

Mike playing the idol for Maryanne had not much to do with Maryanne's win. It allowed Maryanne to flex that she had an idol that she didn't play, true. But she was seemingly never in danger. At least from what we were shown, the only consideration was whether Lindsey was going or Jonathan or Romeo. 

Romeo's move of taking Maryanne was probably the best move for Romeo that he could make. Taking Jonathan straight to the finals would be pretty dumb because he was a challenge beast. Taking Mike straight to the finals would also be suboptimal because he was well liked and he too had more stuff on his resume than Romeo. As you argue, Maryanne did not play the flashiest of games and didn't win anything. It was at least a reasonable decision for Romeo to think without the benefit of hindsight that he could do a better job selling "I'm the nice underdog who survived despite always being a backup plan" than Maryanne could do selling "I'm a nice girl who didn't really do anything in the game and no one saw as a threat."

Again, the definition of "deserving" isn't who I might think is the most deserving, or you, or anybody but the collective votes of the jury. It is an impossibility that an undeserving winner can be selected. Anyone who can convince a majority of the jury to vote for them by definition deserves to win, even if they haven't won a challenge, made no big moves, etc. etc. 

Maryanne made her own luck as other posters explained above. She convinced seven of the eight jurors that she was the most deserving winner. That's not a fluke. That's an ass-kicking.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[Kenzie]

5 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

going out almost immediately was embarrassing.

I rewound that moment several times and when the ball dropped Mike snatched it up and quickly put it back in play. Hard to say whether that was a knee-jerk reaction or he was hoping Jeff hadn't noticed and he could get away with it. I kind of think it was the latter.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Kenzie

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, Primetimer said:

Just posted: Primetimer's Joe Reid weighs in on Maryanne's win, and how Survivor juries have evolved to seek out the game beneath the game.
https://www.primetimer.com/features/survivor-42-crowns-a-winner-and-cements-a-new-survivor-archetype

In this Joe Reid says: "But Maryanne succeeded at the very thing that Survivor 41's Erika succeeded at en route to her victory: the power of a narrative. "

I agree but call it, "Out sell" to follow the "out last, out play etc." Survivor mantra.

Maryanne called it herself when she said she knew she could "close the deal."  I said Maryanne would win after she made her speech about what it meant to have black people seen winning Survivor when Tori was evicted.  Maryanne showed her seminary student chops with that mini-sermon, never mind that it was something said a thousand times during the last two years and probably used by her in student-sermons, and never mind that a few days later she went back on her oath to never vote out a black person and voted out Drea.

At the end  Drea didn't seem to mind at all, in fact Drea said it for all of the jury that "strategy" was all that mattered to her and Hai reinforced that thought by hinting that he would vote for Mike if Mike said he had purposely lied to everyone as part of his strategy.

I'm glad Maryanne won.  Mike lost me a long time ago by calling himself likeable and talking over people and Romeo lost me when the others said he did nothing around camp but eat. 

What bothers me is that either one of them could have won at the end if he had a better narrative or was better at sales then Maryanne.

I never thought the game should be won only by the Ozzies who were fabulous at challenges or that people should be out of the running for lying, but now it seems like challenge wins mean nothing at all and lying is a requirement.  If the game has come down to nothing at all but being the best talker at final tribal then there's no point in any other aspect of the game. No reason to win challenges other than immunity at that particular tribal, no reason to be a nice person, no reason to do any work around the camp, just lay low till the end and sell a story you might have worked on before the show. 

That desired end game plus all the advantages and perks have turned the game into something different than the original social experiment.  Bitter juries were at least honest and human.  Now the cold admiration for fake crying or a talent for looking you in the eye while lying  has just made it like watching poker.   I'm not interested in that kind of game play or in a show that comes down to America's Next Top Salesperson.

[Haleth]

I'm very happy with Maryanne's win.  During FTC I kept yelling to her to tell the jury she had an idol and then she did so perfectly.  Revealing that she had a plan and an idol to get to F4 won over several of the jurors.  (I had hoped she'd use it for Lindsey when Mike gave her his own, but Maryanne is smarter than me knowing that was a bad move for her.)  Of course it was a stroke of luck for Romeo, of all people, to win the final challenge.  That guaranteed that either Mike or Jonathan would be sent packing, leaving her with only one powerhouse guy to beat.  Pulling out an idol that she never had to use at the last minute and spelling out her backup plan was brilliant.

It ended up being a very good season with a lot of interesting players.  I never hated anyone, I found them all likable to some extent and enjoyed watching everyone compete.

I like the immediate reveal rather than the overly staged live reveal.

7 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I remember nothing before the merge.

You and me both.  The local news was promoting a chat with a local contestant who was booted early on.  I have zero memory of her.

Only complaint?  Next season?  Bring back Ponderosa!

[Tachi Rocinante]

Ehh.  Final 3 was really a Final 2, and Mike shit the bed at Jury.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

In this Joe Reid says: "But Maryanne succeeded at the very thing that Survivor 41's Erika succeeded at en route to her victory: the power of a narrative. "

I agree but call it, "Out sell" to follow the "out last, out play etc." Survivor mantra.

I couldn't agree more.

It's kinda perplexing to explain. I mentioned this in the episode's live chat that Maryanne sold me on why she should win. Before her final pitch to the jury, I didn't think much of Maryanne's game. Her game play is okay. It wasn't extraordinary. It wasn't all that flashy. The argument could be made that Mike had the winning hand when it came to game play but Mike couldn't sell me that his game was better than Maryanne's. If the jury voted immediately after the fire making challenge, I would've guessed Mike as the winner.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

never mind that a few days later she went back on her oath to never vote out a black person and voted out Drea.

Maryanne never made an oath to never vote out a Black person. She said she couldn't do it at that specific tribal council (where Tori was voted out) because seeing the jury to that point both being Black people evoked strong, outside-the-game feelings in that moment, to the extent that she couldn't bring herself to vote for Drea and have African Americans go out back to back to back. Neither she nor Drea ever stated that they would never vote for another black person again.

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I never thought the game should be won only by the Ozzies who were fabulous at challenges or that people should be out of the running for lying, but now it seems like challenge wins mean nothing at all and lying is a requirement.  If the game has come down to nothing at all but being the best talker at final tribal then there's no point in any other aspect of the game. No reason to win challenges other than immunity at that particular tribal, no reason to be a nice person, no reason to do any work around the camp, just lay low till the end and sell a story you might have worked on before the show. 

This is hardly a new development. There haven't been a lot of challenge beasts who have won or even made it to the end, and honestly there really isn't a reason to win challenges other than immunity at that particular tribal council. That's what the challenges are for. Players can use it on their "resume" if they like, but it's rarely been a major reason why people win.

Lying goes back to the very first season, when Richard's alliance was hidden from the others and Sue told Stacey she was voting for Rudy but voted Stacey out instead.

Making your pitch (aka "being the best talker") at the final tribal council has always been the last, most important requirement to win.

No reason to be a nice person? This is a huge part (though not the only part) of why Maryanne won.

Doing work around camp may not be a factor in whether or not you win, but not doing work around camp can still be a good way to get voted out early on, and a good way to not get votes at the end.

Too many twists and advantages? Yes, I think we all agree on that. But I don't see this fundamental shift in how or why people are winning. It's always been compete hard in challenges to get further in the game, lie when necessary to maneuver through the votes, and sell your game at the end. That's what happened in Season 1, that's what happened here.

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, Brendan Birch said:

Earl, Todd, and Sarah never won challenges in, respectively, Fiji, China, and Game Changers.

Thanks.  I was pretty certain there had been others; I was feeling particularly brain-dead when I posted that question, though, and none were immediately coming to mind.  😁

[AntFTW]

I feel like Romeo's only possibility at winning was giving up immunity and beating Mike or Jonathan in fire making. That would have his biggest move of the season.

[Nashville]

13 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I feel like Romeo's only possibility at winning was giving up immunity and beating Mike or Jonathan in fire making. That would have his biggest move of the season.

Romeo’s only possibility of winning would’ve been to machine-gun the rest of the cast on Day 1.

That being said - last night, the closest thing Romeo might’ve had to a sliver of a chance at FTC would have been:

1. Select Jonathan as his F3 pick.
2. Let Mike knock out Maryanne in the firemaking challenge.
3. Hope to God Mike shit the bed in the FTC Q&A.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Nashville
Typo

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Romeo’s only possibility of winning would’ve been to machine-gun the rest of the cast on Day 1.

4 minutes ago, Nashville said:

That being said - last night, the closest thing Romeo might’ve had to a sliver of a chance at FTC would have been:

1. Select Jonathan as his F3 pick.
2. Let Mike knock out Maryanne in the firemaking challenge.
3. Hope to God Mike shit the bed in the FTC Q&A.

  He thought Maryanne would have been he easier person to beat. His loss... literally.

Edited May 26, 2022 by AntFTW

[seacliffsal]

I think Jeff worked waaaay too hard (and spent waaaay too much time) trying to convince us that this season was fun, fun, fun, the most funnest thing ever.  Then he asks Lindsay about how fun the 'do or die' was...of course she is going to agree with him that it was the funnest thing ever as she most likely wants a returning season.  Only those players who really don't care about returning would be honest when asked how fun everything was, but they would be edited out anyway.  For me, it's not that fun to have to keep track of all of the gimmicks or to fear for a player I like due to the luck of gimmicks (which can override strategy).  I also prefer the longer seasons as, really, the game is less than 4 weeks long and even though they are hungry, tired, etc., it's not really that excruciating of a time frame.  So, to be concise...no Jeff, it isn't the funnest thing ever.  The strategic element is the one I love and I am not a fan of 1,000 gimmicks that effectively discount some of the strategy.

Okay, got that out of the way.  Yes, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I really do wish Romeo had received at least 1 vote.  He really was at the bottom, but unlike other goats from seasons past, I feel like he really wanted to reform an alliance (as he had one in his original tribe) and be more a part of the game.  

Mike joins a whole host of former players who believed they were demonstrating the highest levels of integrity and yet would vote out in a heartbeat anyone they think wasn't loyal to them.  At least Mike realized his mistake during tribal council (albeit too late to control the damage he already caused to his game).

I think Jonathon will make adjustments to any future play he may have after he watches the season.  Oh, and for Jeff liking being called "Mr. Jeff," well, in the South, have the "Mr." or "Miss" put in front of one's first name implies the person is old/elderly.  I have never been called "Miss SeaCliffSal" as many times as in the last couple of years...

I loved Lindsay's disbelief that she got outplayed by Jonathon as she kept stating she was the better player (when she was going on about not knowing they were targeting Omer and Jonathon just responded 'but you voted for me' [she was indignant that he made a move she didn't know about as she was allied with Jonathon, well 'allied' until trying to vote him out]).

Good season but I am worried about future seasons as Jeff thinks all of the gimmicks make Survivor so much fun.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

In this Joe Reid says: "But Maryanne succeeded at the very thing that Survivor 41's Erika succeeded at en route to her victory: the power of a narrative. "

I agree but call it, "Out sell" to follow the "out last, out play etc." Survivor mantra.

Maryanne called it herself when she said she knew she could "close the deal."  I said Maryanne would win after she made her speech about what it meant to have black people seen winning Survivor when Tori was evicted.  Maryanne showed her seminary student chops with that mini-sermon, never mind that it was something said a thousand times during the last two years and probably used by her in student-sermons, and never mind that a few days later she went back on her oath to never vote out a black person and voted out Drea.

At the end  Drea didn't seem to mind at all, in fact Drea said it for all of the jury that "strategy" was all that mattered to her and Hai reinforced that thought by hinting that he would vote for Mike if Mike said he had purposely lied to everyone as part of his strategy.

I'm glad Maryanne won.  Mike lost me a long time ago by calling himself likeable and talking over people and Romeo lost me when the others said he did nothing around camp but eat. 

What bothers me is that either one of them could have won at the end if he had a better narrative or was better at sales then Maryanne.

I never thought the game should be won only by the Ozzies who were fabulous at challenges or that people should be out of the running for lying, but now it seems like challenge wins mean nothing at all and lying is a requirement.  If the game has come down to nothing at all but being the best talker at final tribal then there's no point in any other aspect of the game. No reason to win challenges other than immunity at that particular tribal, no reason to be a nice person, no reason to do any work around the camp, just lay low till the end and sell a story you might have worked on before the show. 

That desired end game plus all the advantages and perks have turned the game into something different than the original social experiment.  Bitter juries were at least honest and human.  Now the cold admiration for fake crying or a talent for looking you in the eye while lying  has just made it like watching poker.   I'm not interested in that kind of game play or in a show that comes down to America's Next Top Salesperson.

Maryanne never said she would never vote out a Black person, or Drea, at all, let alone made an oath to refrain from doing it. She said she couldn't vote for Drea at that moment,

And outselling the competition in the FTC is baked in the Survivor process as much as lying or winning challenges.

2 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Ehh.  Final 3 was really a Final 2, and Mike shit the bed at Jury.

Has there ever been a season where all three of the final three were actually competitive? In my memory, it seemed like there usually was a clear winner, someone who gets maybe 2-3 votes, and then a third person who is shut out.

I wonder if there is a way to change things so that you don't have the situation of "_______ also ran."

8 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Romeo’s only possibility of winning would’ve been to machine-gun the rest of the cast on Day 1.

That being said - last night, the closest thing Romeo might’ve had to a sliver of a chance at FTC would have been:

1. Select Jonathan as his F3 pick.
2. Let Mike knock out Maryanne in the firemaking challenge.
3. Hope to God Mike shit the bed in the FTC Q&A.

I think you're right that Romeo pretty much had no hope of actual winning. But did he have an actual hope of even getting a jury vote?

I think that if Jonathan is in it, he wins a F3 with Mike and Romeo in a walk. The fact that he was the challenge beast and provider that he was, that he's generally a nice guy, and that he can do salesmanship in a way Mike and Romeo could not speak well for his chances. The main risk he would face is having to answer for his mansplaining and arrogant ways, or he might lose some of the votes from the women jurors. But none of those votes seem likely to fall to Romeo.

If it happened to be Jonathan/Romeo/Maryanne, that would have been interesting. I think that Jonathan might have peeled off some votes like Rocksroy and Hai that Maryanne got. Maybe even Lindsey would go for him recognizing his dominance. But I think Romeo still gets a goose egg.

[fishcakes]

So happy for Maryanne! I would have been okay with any of the F3 winning, but she was the one I was rooting for. Really, I thought Romeo did a little better at FTC than she did, but he couldn't overcome having been basically ignored except as a backup boot since the merge. He was a goat, but unlike past goats, he knew it; it was clear that he knew all along what his position in the game was and rather than try to coast on it, he tried to change it to the extent that he could without putting an even bigger target on himself. When he started to cry and said it wasn't the game he wanted to play, I feel like that might be the most honest moment we've ever seen at an FTC. Mike, OTOH, didn't get to honest until it was too late, but he was lying to himself more than anyone. He had most of the votes going into TC; if he'd had more self-awareness, he might have won.

Maryanne pulling out the unused HII was great, but I think she was wrong about making F3 no matter what once Omar was gone. Mike and Jonathan would be more likely to put her in to make fire against one of themselves, regardless of whatever promises they made to her beforehand, thinking she would lose and then they'd have their Broliance + Romeo the goat as an F3. Even Romeo knew taking her was bad for him, but ultimately I think he couldn't stomach giving either of the guys a pass into F3. In any case, I doubt F3 was a sure thing for her but the way she laid it out made it at least show that she was thinking two and three steps ahead when she moved against Omar, which impressed the jury.

I've been neutral on Lindsay all along, but she lost me this episode. First that dumb argument with Jonathan where she was trying to claim he betrayed their alliance by not telling her Omar was the target. Jonathan's repeated, "you voted for me, Lindsay" was pure smug, but he wasn't wrong. So she loses points for being an idiot, but mostly for making me side with Jonathan. Then her attempt to guilt Mike into saving her, with the tears and the, "I just don't want to go out that way." That way meaning ... by being voted out? Not really the injustice she was was trying to make it seem.

Speaking of the Lindsay/Jonathan argument, I notice he called her aggressive the same way he called Drea aggressive when she talked about her feelings at the TC where Tori was voted out. Based on one of Drea's exit interviews he apparently also called her aggressive when she asked him about the fishing net. So for Jonathan, woman speaking = women being aggressive.

Third best moment: watching Jonathan realize he lost immunity to Romeo.
Second best: hearing Jonathan say in a faux humble way, "I'm pretty good at making fire" right before he lost the fire-making challenge to Mike.
Best: Knowing I don't have to hear Jonathan say, "Mr. Jeff" again, at least until he plays in a returnee season because you know they're bringing that mfer back.

[iMonrey]

One thing I appreciated about S41 and S42 is that we are back to having a much better Final Tribal with the jurors really grilling the final 3 and holding their feet to the fire. For the past several seasons, the jury question part has gotten more stifled and scripted, with each jury member basically standing up and asking one question. But in the last two seasons there has been more of a conversation between the jury and the final three. I think that's largely due to the fact that Covid has killed the live reunion special so the show is able to devote more time to this part. It's a vast improvement whatever the reason.

I just hope now that both seasons have aired the producers take note of audience feedback and kill off some of these unpopular twists like Turn Back Time and Do or Die. The way they were talking them up during the after party made me nauseous. 

Quote

Many folks here seemed to think this move of Maryanne’s was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I have to say - I saw this move as, simply put, very competent strategically.  Maryanne was aware that the Lindsay/Omar pair vs. the Jonathan/Mike pair amounted to a 2/2 split regardless of how cast - so as long as Maryanne could get Romeo to agree on a particular target, their 3 votes (her two + Romeo) would carry the day.  Well-observed?  Definitely - but hardly groundbreaking.

Agreed and she admitted she needed that move for her resume because she had nothing to show for her game prior to that. Out of the final three she did the best job making her case, and pulling that secret idol out of her pocket sealed the deal. But she was up against Mike, whose lack of self-awareness did him in, and Romeo, who had zero game. 

I'm in the camp that whoever wins deserves to win, and I'm fine with Maryanne winning. But her win is due as much to other players falling to stupid tricks and twists as it is to her own gameplay or strategy. That's just where the game is now. It's outwitting and outlasting the game itself as much as the other players. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

So happy for Maryanne! I would have been okay with any of the F3 winning, but she was the one I was rooting for. Really, I thought Romeo did a little better at FTC than she did, but he couldn't overcome having been basically ignored except as a backup boot since the merge. He was a goat, but unlike past goats, he knew it; it was clear that he knew all along what his position in the game was and rather than try to coast on it, he tried to change it to the extent that he could without putting an even bigger target on himself. When he started to cry and said it wasn't the game he wanted to play, I feel like that might be the most honest moment we've ever seen at an FTC. Mike, OTOH, didn't get to honest until it was too late, but he was lying to himself more than anyone. He had most of the votes going into TC; if he'd had more self-awareness, he might have won.

Maryanne pulling out the unused HII was great, but I think she was wrong about making F3 no matter what once Omar was gone. Mike and Jonathan would be more likely to put her in to make fire against one of themselves, regardless of whatever promises they made to her beforehand, thinking she would lose and then they'd have their Broliance + Romeo the goat as an F3. Even Romeo knew taking her was bad for him, but ultimately I think he couldn't stomach giving either of the guys a pass into F3. In any case, I doubt F3 was a sure thing for her but the way she laid it out made it at least show that she was thinking two and three steps ahead when she moved against Omar, which impressed the jury.

I've been neutral on Lindsay all along, but she lost me this episode. First that dumb argument with Jonathan where she was trying to claim he betrayed their alliance by not telling her Omar was the target. Jonathan's repeated, "you voted for me, Lindsay" was pure smug, but he wasn't wrong. So she loses points for being an idiot, but mostly for making me side with Jonathan. Then her attempt to guilt Mike into saving her, with the tears and the, "I just don't want to go out that way." That way meaning ... by being voted out? Not really the injustice she was was trying to make it seem.

Speaking of the Lindsay/Jonathan argument, I notice he called her aggressive the same way he called Drea aggressive when she talked about her feelings at the TC where Tori was voted out. Based on one of Drea's exit interviews he apparently also called her aggressive when she asked him about the fishing net. So for Jonathan, woman speaking = women being aggressive.

Third best moment: watching Jonathan realize he lost immunity to Romeo.
Second best: hearing Jonathan say in a faux humble way, "I'm pretty good at making fire" right before he lost the fire-making challenge to Mike.
Best: Knowing I don't have to hear Jonathan say, "Mr. Jeff" again, at least until he plays in a returnee season because you know they're bringing that mfer back.

Deanna Troi says: I'm sensing you dislike Jonathan. :)