S23.E21: Confess Your Sins To Be Free

[WendyCR72]

Not the season finale (that's next week!). Airing May 12, 2022:

Quote

When the only evidence in a crime is a church confession, Carisi must find another way to prove his suspect guilty. Benson agrees to meet with an old friend seeking to make amends for past transgressions.

 

[Xeliou66]

I do like the sound of a Carisi centric story - hopefully that delivers, although I’m still pissed about Fin not getting a single episode this season where he is front and center. I dread the Benson subplot though. 

[dttruman]

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

When the only evidence in a crime is a church confession, Carisi must find another way to prove his suspect guilty. Benson agrees to meet with an old friend seeking to make amends for past transgressions.

 

15 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I dread the Benson subplot though. 

Interesting in seeing how Carisi goes about it, since he is RC and knows how sacred a church confession is, but is also a prosecutor sworn to punish the guilty.

I wonder if this will be a great moment for Benson to follow the lead of "an old friend seeking to make amends for past transgressions". Will Benson decide also to make amends for her transgression by seeking out the people she wronged? For example, the boy who committed suicide when Benson pushed for a rape charge against the man who slept with the boy's mother (Imposter, Season 18, Episode 3). Or maybe she would contact all those people she arrested for rape but were later exonerated.

[dttruman]

Well Benson is being Benson again, being Judge, jury and executioner right off the bat with her former friend. and correct me if I am wrong, but he didn't do anything wrong or illegal. The girls that Benson thought he raped (or took advantage of) were 18 or older, so all he guilty of is having a smooth line or a good approach.

Please don't let this episode be one of Benson's "Holier than Though" moments.

[Xeliou66]

This was a good episode - minus the St Olivia/Burton subplot.

The case was good - I really liked seeing Carisi get a meaty storyline, bonus points that it didn’t involve Rollins, he was really good throughout and I liked his rage about the situation and his determination to get to the truth. He was good in his role and had good scenes with everyone.

Fin and Velasco were great as usual, I liked that they took the lead in the investigation in the field and they did a good investigation. Again no Rollins was a plus, nice that Ruiz made the assist with the undercover sting instead of Rollins, and that Benson took a backseat and didn’t get out in the field much. Good investigation and good case.

The bad part was the St Olivia crap - I’m not sure what purpose it served other than to give Benson more angst and another subplot for her to take center stage. I’m unsure what to make of Burton or of Benson’s feelings about him, Burton has serious issues and is sleazy but is he  a rapist or just a creepy sleaze. That whole subplot was worthless, confusing and done just to give Benson another angst plot.

Overall this was another strong episode - it’s remarkable how the writing has improved in the second half of this season compared to the first half which was crap. Take away the Burton plot and flesh out the case more and this might’ve been the season’s best episode.

[tennisgurl]

This would have been such a great episode if it wasn't for the pointless St. Olivia plot. What was even the point of this? Did anyone want to see Burton again or have to watch Olivia alternate between angsting and giving self important speeches? Did anyone care that much about this subplot or want it to return? We actually had an interesting main story but we kept cutting away to this minor sleazeball character or to St. Olivia every time things were starting to get interesting.

What makes the boring Olivia plot even worse is that it took time away from the strong main story, which was really good. I loved seeing Carisi getting such a meaty story, especially with no Rollins in sight, and I thought he handled the messy situation really well. It was like when Garland's pastor was being arrested for sexual abuse, he was clearly deeply affected by what was happening but tried really hard to keep things professional and be objective as a DA. Luckily for Carisi, things went better for him than Garland as his old friend really wasn't the rapist, but having to arrest a priest was still rough for him as a man of faith. He had a lot of good scenes with everyone and he played well off the actor playing his priest friend. I especially loved when he told his friend that if he let a rapist go to continue his crimes that God would judge him more for that than for upholding the sanctity of confession, Peter Scanavino sold the absolute crap out of that, which in a lesser actors mouth could come off as melodramatic. 

I am also glad that they added a bit of a follow up as to what was happening to the rape victim, too often this show gets into the habit of getting so swallowed up in personal drama or twists and turns that they forget about the original victim, so I was relieved that they clarified that she left her bad situation. 

I am glad that they had Fin and Velasco take the lead on investigating, there was a lot of good detective work done and they provided a nice contrast in their feelings towards the case. Fin, who certainly dealt with plenty of cases involving corruption in churches, was nonchalant and treated things like any other case, while Velasco was clearly upset at the idea of a priest using confessions as a means to find rape victims and uncomfortable about the idea of arresting a priest. 

Take out the boring Olivia plot, this was a really good episode that explored a lot of interesting themes without being preachy and managed to do a "its personal" episode in a way that actually explored the character in an engaging way.

Edited May 14, 2022 by tennisgurl

[wknt3]

The Good:
The COTW. An interesting investigation of a sexually based offense by elite detectives while exploring the broader issues at play in the particular case and how it impacts the regular characters as well as the guest cast. I mean I could see that as the basis for a long running spinoff of the franchise.
Carisi. PS rose to the occasion as usual when they give him some solid material. They did  a nice job here of doing just that while also avoiding all of the usual pitfalls of stories based on Carisi's faith and background - archetypes not stereotypes and they never seemed on the verge of self parody.
The Benson subplot. Not that it was anything great or even particularly good, but if featured some great acting by the guest cast and gace Mariska something to do without an OC crossover or taking over the investiagation. It was like an episode of Paw Patrol we put on for my nephews - not great procedural drama and I don't think it would stand up to much scrutiny, but it keeps them from making a mess and lets the grownups get real work done. I'd rather have her off doing this than showing up at the church to cleanse the temple.
Fin and Velasco. The new Fin and Carisi in that when they are on screen together, whether alone or with guest cast it means we are seeing either real police work or actual character development. No nonsense.
Rollins. Addition by subtraction. No Rollisi family drama or stupid comments. Although given the general quality of the writing throughout they probably would have used her well.

The Bad:
Mariska's overacting and insistence of showing us that Benson changes the life of everyone she meets for the better and even when they suffer it's redemptive. Blech.
No Rollins. She wasn't really needed, but it's beyond ridiculous that even after dropping 2 new cast members for budgetary reasons we still have to play musical chairs even during sweeps. The show it starting to feel really claustrophobic again and it's time to either end it or for Dick Wolf to suck it up and wait a few years to make a profit on new episodes.

Overall this was a very good episode that reminded me of Season 17  - it had a distinct POV, but it still dealt with social and moral issues with nuance and a sense that nobody but the perp was evil even if they weren't actively helping our heroes at the moment. Also in that it was dragged down by an excessive focus on how great Benson was even when she would have looked better by stepping back a bit. They can be proud of this one and if they keep up this level of quality Warren Leight can say he left the show in better condition than he found it. Again.

[Cinnabon]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:16 PM, dttruman said:

Well Benson is being Benson again, being Judge, jury and executioner right off the bat with her former friend. and correct me if I am wrong, but he didn't do anything wrong or illegal. The girls that Benson thought he raped (or took advantage of) were 18 or older, so all he guilty of is having a smooth line or a good approach.

Please don't let this episode be one of Benson's "Holier than Though" moments.

A subjective “wrong” is not the same as being illegal. I consider what that asshole did to be predatory and sickening, but it’s not illegal.

ETA - I was referring to the very young girls here. The woman in this episode who accused him of rape when they were both drunk is a more complicated situation. In some jurisdictions (is NYC one?) drunk people don’t have the ability to consent under the law. Having been in a few such situations I’m not sure how I ultimately  feel about it. On college campuses, I wish that were the law. Young people need to fully understand consent and that being under the influence massively changes that ability.  Should adults know better? 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Cinnabon

[dttruman]

5 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

ETA - I was referring to the very young girls here. The woman in this episode who accused him of rape when they were both drunk is a more complicated situation. In some jurisdictions (is NYC one?) drunk people don’t have the ability to consent under the law. Having been in a few such situations I’m not sure how I ultimately  feel about it. On college campuses, I wish that were the law. Young people need to fully understand consent and that being under the influence massively changes that ability.  Should adults know better? 

There was an episode that dealt with a couple getting really drunk and then the lady ended up thinking she was raped. The guy involved in that "so called" rape was former ADA Peter Stone, when he had a possible drinking problem. The victim remembered him from about 7-10 years ago and then decided to press charges that Benson without questioning the circumstances, arrested Stone. Granted it is a very tough case to evaluate and prosecute, since both were very drunk at the time it would be just so hard to judge if there was any intent there to commit a rape. Stone honestly didn't know exactly what happen, the girl had just a vague recollection and with the long passage of time, how could you take this to court . That's why today, it is so very important not to drink so much when in the company of someone, it could have dire consequences

The episode was " Mea Culpa" Season 20, Episode 9

As for Burton, he didn't maliciously force the girls to drink or even coerced them. He just used a specific bottle of wine (I think?), soothing music and some intimate conversations. As for judging him to be a predator, there is some merit to it, but it seems like the girls could have said they weren't interested at anytime. Did Burton have a knack for picking out girls with low self-esteem, that would make them susceptible to his charm, maybe? But it looks like justice was served in the end, he became an alcoholic and recognized his problem and what he inadvertently did to those girls.

 

 

[hookedontv]

I agree with everyone here: COTW was really good and having Carisi front and center really drew me in. When Fin and Velasco were talking to the prior rape victim and she said “but he’s a priest” I groaned and said “he’s a human being.” I have little tolerance for this thinking, we all know that people in religion, law enforcement, government are all human beings. 
 

St. Olivia’s storyline took away from the case and slowed the show. I love Aiden Quinn but not in this character. And, I went on a few dates as a 17 year old with a 24 year old guy. Different times back then. 

[Irate Panda]

This might be a stupid question because I tuned out a lot of times when St. Olivia is on but the if the older lady who accuses Aidan Quinn’s character of rape was drunk and AQ (sorry can’t remember the character’s name) was also drunk and he didn’t drug the wine or use force wouldn’t both of them be incapable of consent?  If so, how would they make a case for rape or did AQ’s character drug or use force on the woman or was it so long ago the lady was underage like Olivia and therefore was statutory rape.  I skipped a lot to get to the Carisi parts.

[Pearson80]

I loved this episode but the Benson b story was just awful and took away from the awesomeness of Carisi who has become my favorite. 

I have a different opinion of what Mariska was pushing with her story. I think that drunken sex between two drunk individuals is complicated and it is not always rape.   I hated how she treated Stone when he was accused of rape after having drunken sex with a woman in his younger days. Benson is always so quick to accuse a man of rape no matter what.

I remember how she bullied Barba into prosecuting that man who pretended to be the dean of Hudson University and slept with that woman who wanted her son to get into the school. I was appalled when she cried rape after she realized that he had lied to her to get her into bed and Benson led the charge against him. Men lie to women all of the time to get them into bed, it does not mean they are rapists. I really hate Benson. 

Furthermore, Why is Benson always telling the prosecutors when and who to prosecute.  It is not her damn job, she is supposed to catch the criminals and the DA decides if it warrants a prosecution or not.  

[dttruman]

2 hours ago, hookedontv said:

St. Olivia’s storyline took away from the case and slowed the show. I love Aiden Quinn but not in this character. And, I went on a few dates as a 17 year old with a 24 year old guy. Different times back then. 

Please forgive me for prying and if you think I am being too personal, tell me and I will stop immediately. But I would like to know if a young lady feels pressured or intimidated by an older man or would a lesser word be "influenced"? I am trying to figure out what Benson's description is for "rape". Over the last 10 years her minimum definition of rape or sexual assault seems to be if a guy stares a little too long at a girl, he's in a lot of trouble. I just wonder what a young girl's thoughts are concerning (Aiden Quinn) Burton 's actions? Is he as guilty as Benson thinks he is or what? Please be reminded you don't have to tell us a thing and you can tell me to "Take a Flying Leap".

[hookedontv]

8 minutes ago, dttruman said:

Please forgive me for prying and if you think I am being too personal, tell me and I will stop immediately. But I would like to know if a young lady feels pressured or intimidated by an older man or would a lesser word be "influenced"? I am trying to figure out what Benson's description is for "rape". Over the last 10 years her minimum definition of rape or sexual assault seems to be if a guy stares a little too long at a girl, he's in a lot of trouble. I just wonder what a young girl's thoughts are concerning (Aiden Quinn) Burton 's actions? Is he as guilty as Benson thinks he is or what? Please be reminded you don't have to tell us a thing and you can tell me to "Take a Flying Leap".

I’m in my 50’s now, so it was a very long time ago! At that time, I didn’t feel any pressure. When he “tried” some things and I said “not yet” and moved his hand away (sometimes more than once) I myself didn’t feel pressured or violated. I can see St. Olivia viewing that as sexual assault, and I would not agree with that assessment (either at that time or looking back on it now). 

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

I loved this episode but the Benson b story was just awful and took away from the awesomeness of Carisi who has become my favorite. 

I have a different opinion of what Mariska was pushing with her story. I think that drunken sex between two drunk individuals is complicated and it is not always rape.   I hated how she treated Stone when he was accused of rape after having drunken sex with a woman in his younger days. Benson is always so quick to accuse a man of rape no matter what.

I remember how she bullied Barba into prosecuting that man who pretended to be the dean of Hudson University and slept with that woman who wanted her son to get into the school. I was appalled when she cried rape after she realized that he had lied to her to get her into bed and Benson led the charge against him. Men lie to women all of the time to get them into bed, it does not mean they are rapists. I really hate Benson. 

Furthermore, Why is Benson always telling the prosecutors when and who to prosecute.  It is not her damn job, she is supposed to catch the criminals and the DA decides if it warrants a prosecution or not.  

Benson drives me nuts, I completely agree. Imposter, the episode you are referencing, is one of SVU’s worst episodes, and as a result of Benson’s crusade to prosecute someone for something that WAS NOT A CRIME, the woman’s son committed suicide. That episode featured Benson at her worst. And yeah she is quick to accuse people of rape, and to turn on people quickly, and I’m beyond sick of her trying to order the DA’s around, she did it to Barba, she did it to Stone, and she does it to Carisi. She isn’t their boss, and she needs to shut up, and it’s time someone told her that, I keep wishing Jack McCoy would show up on SVU just to tell Benson to shut up and quit bossing around his ADA’s.

[dttruman]

33 minutes ago, hookedontv said:

I’m in my 50’s now, so it was a very long time ago! At that time, I didn’t feel any pressure. When he “tried” some things and I said “not yet” and moved his hand away (sometimes more than once) I myself didn’t feel pressured or violated. I can see St. Olivia viewing that as sexual assault, and I would not agree with that assessment (either at that time or looking back on it now). 

You didn't have to be that specific, I was just looking for a word or phrase that might express some type of "uncomfortable feeling" or were you and Burton's girls just seeking some type of approval. I thought Burton's girls might have some type of "Low self-esteem", but you made your intentions known.

Edited May 15, 2022 by dttruman

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, Irate Panda said:

This might be a stupid question because I tuned out a lot of times when St. Olivia is on but the if the older lady who accuses Aidan Quinn’s character of rape was drunk and AQ (sorry can’t remember the character’s name) was also drunk and he didn’t drug the wine or use force wouldn’t both of them be incapable of consent?  If so, how would they make a case for rape or did AQ’s character drug or use force on the woman or was it so long ago the lady was underage like Olivia and therefore was statutory rape.  I skipped a lot to get to the Carisi parts.

IMO, I didn't think he got physical, threatened, or even coerced any of the girls, but he just had a smooth way of going about it with the girls. If I used the word "seduced" to describe his way with the girls, Benson would then call it "rape".

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

Please forgive me for prying and if you think I am being too personal, tell me and I will stop immediately. But I would like to know if a young lady feels pressured or intimidated by an older man or would a lesser word be "influenced"? I am trying to figure out what Benson's description is for "rape". Over the last 10 years her minimum definition of rape or sexual assault seems to be if a guy stares a little too long at a girl, he's in a lot of trouble. I just wonder what a young girl's thoughts are concerning (Aiden Quinn) Burton 's actions? Is he as guilty as Benson thinks he is or what? Please be reminded you don't have to tell us a thing and you can tell me to "Take a Flying Leap".

In some jurisdictions, a person (of legal age or not) who is drunk or under the influence of drugs is not considered able to consent. And yes, it’s an incredibly complicated topic. I was in several situations when I was younger that were skeevy and I made decisions I absolutely wouldn’t have made if I had been sober, but I didn’t consider them rape. One involved one of my bosses and I was clearly out of my head and blacked out, but he took me back to his place anyway (I had misplaced my purse and keys so he made it look like he was “rescuing” me and doing me a favor. It would’ve been helping had he not taken me to his place. We had sex, I only remember bits and pieces. It wasn’t all that traumatic overall, but that was predatory behavior on his part. He was an executive so I would’ve been the one let go from my job, not him, if I had told anyone. Anyway - these are complicated issues and no clear answers. 

[Pearson80]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Benson drives me nuts, I completely agree. Imposter, the episode you are referencing, is one of SVU’s worst episodes, and as a result of Benson’s crusade to prosecute someone for something that WAS NOT A CRIME, the woman’s son committed suicide. That episode featured Benson at her worst. And yeah she is quick to accuse people of rape, and to turn on people quickly, and I’m beyond sick of her trying to order the DA’s around, she did it to Barba, she did it to Stone, and she does it to Carisi. She isn’t their boss, and she needs to shut up, and it’s time someone told her that, I keep wishing Jack McCoy would show up on SVU just to tell Benson to shut up and quit bossing around his ADA’s.

That was the episode that sealed my hatred of Benson.  

Edited May 15, 2022 by Pearson80

[dttruman]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

We had sex, I only remember bits and pieces. It wasn’t all that traumatic overall, but that was predatory behavior on his part. He was an executive so I would’ve been the one let go from my job, not him, if I had told anyone. Anyway - these are complicated issues and no clear answers. 

Very sorry to hear that. Hope you are doing OK

[Cinnabon]

20 minutes ago, dttruman said:

Very sorry to hear that. Hope you are doing OK

Oh, I’m fine. I was never traumatized or anything. But it was predatory behavior. Unfortunately that’s not uncommon. 

[statsgirl]

What I really liked:  the twist that Carisi found that his friend knew about the rape because he had heard about it in confession.

What I didn't mind: bringing Burton back. There wasn't enough in the case of the priest raping to fill an episode (that he did it because his mother cheated on his father is Criminal Minds level bad) and they needed something else to put in to fill the hour.

What I hated: that Burton was put on the register because the woman was too drunk to give consent. Maybe he deserves to be on there for other things that he has done but she, a mature woman, made the decision to drink too much.  He bears a responsibility too but if she hadn't made the decision to keep drinking, maybe the rape wouldn't have happened.