S06.E04: Hour of the Wolf

[Athena]

Quote

While visiting the Cherokee, Ian encounters a man from his past who dredges up painful memories of his time with the Mohawk. Jamie meets an Indian Agent who challenges his convictions, causing him to re-evaluate.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This may include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay, purely shallow, shallow, SHALLOW comments furrrst:

Sam’s wigs are HORRRRRRRRIBLE. Jamie is still supposed to have that dark red, THICK hair! I refuse to believe that wardrobe/make-up people can’t find a guid and believable wig, since Sam is no longer coloring or growing out his hair as he did in the first three seasons. And to make him so paaaaaale on top of it!

But that opening scene with Jamie and Claire in bed was verra nice.

AHEM.

John Bell was the MVP in this episode. I still wish the writers would let those of us who don’t speak Cherokee or Mohawk, be provided with SUBTITLES. So we know what is being said.

UGH!UGH!UGH! Malva.🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 So with her being a peeping Tom, watching Jamie and Claire, gives us how she knows about Jamie’s scars when she accuses him and lies about having an affair with him. And like she didn’t steal from Claire’s buik.

I don’t understand why Claire has her as an apprentice when she constantly brings up what Claire does as “witchcraft” even if she Says she doesn’t believe it or tells Allan or her father anything. 
 

Trying to prevent The Trail of Tears will be just like Jamie and Claire trying to prevent Culloden. The show is not doing a very good job of “telling” what happens with the Native Americans. A few lines here and there, and no mention of that murdering RATBASTARD Custer or other tribes. Even if they were across the country.

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[sas616]

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Okay, purely shallow, shallow, SHALLOW comments furrrst:

Sam’d wigs are HORRRRRRRRIBLE. Jamie is still supposed to have that dark red, THICK hair! I refuse to believe that wardrobe/make-up people can’t find a guid and believable wig, since Sam is no longer coloring or growing out his hair as he did in the first three seasons. And to make him so paaaaaale on top of it!

But that opening scene with Jamie and Claire in bed was verra nice.

AHEM.

John Bell was the MVP in this episode. I still wish the writers would let those of us who don’t speak Cherokee or Mohawk, be provided with SUBTITLES. So we know what is being said.

UGH!UGH!UGH! Malva.🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 So with her being a peeping Tom, watching Jamie and Claire, gives us how she knows about Jamie’s scars when she accuses him and lies about having an affair with him. And like she didn’t steal from Claire’s buik.

I don’t understand why Claire has her as an apprentice when she constantly brings up what Claire does as “witchcraft” even if she Says she doesn’t believe it or tells Allan or her father anything. 
 

Trying to prevent The Trail of Tears will be just like Jamie and Claire trying to prevent Culloden. The show is not doing a very good job of “telling” what happens with the Native Americans. A few lines here and there, and no mention of that murdering RATBASTARD Custer or other tribes. Even if they were across the country.

 

I remember reading awhile back, probably at the start of Season 5, that Jamie's hair would be lighter because as redheads age, the hair lightens.  Is this true?  Haven't a clue.   But the reasoning is that at 50+ years, his hair would no longer be the darker shade he had when he was in is 20s and 30s.

[Atlanta]

When I saw the title of the episode, all I could think of is "Hungry Like The Wolf." LOL

[Noneofyourbusiness]

23 minutes ago, sas616 said:

because as redheads age, the hair lightens.  Is this true?  Haven't a clue.

Yes, it is.

2 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

When I saw the title of the episode, all I could think of is "Hungry Like The Wolf." LOL

I immediately thought of the Babylon 5 episode of the same name.

[GHScorpiosRule]

25 minutes ago, sas616 said:

I remember reading awhile back, probably at the start of Season 5, that Jamie's hair would be lighter because as redheads age, the hair lightens.  Is this true?  Haven't a clue.   But the reasoning is that at 50+ years, his hair would no longer be the darker shade he had when he was in is 20s and 30s.

Maybe in real life, but this is OUTLANDER! And if memory serves, Jamie’s hair didn’t change. 

Like I said in my original post-shallow!

[nodorothyparker]

Brianna gave the most specifics anyone's come up with on any future events yet and it was still woefully short on any details that might actually be helpful to really do anything about it. "Why are you telling me this then?" Well see, chief, almost all of my entire immediate family is made up of time travelers and they love to drop these half baked nuggets of information about stuff they vaguely remember is coming and then expect me to make decisions accordingly. So tag, you're it.

I like John Bell a lot. Physically, he's almost the polar opposite of how I envisioned Ian from the books. But he's been such a wonderful fit in this cast and he absolutely nails so many line readings for the way Ian sounds on the page. His story still drags a bit here but mostly works and comes off a lot less hey these books were written in the '90s so here's our Dances With Wolves lite plotline. I did have to pause his big sex scene to google how old the actor is because we were introduced to him playing a teenager and he still has such a baby face it was almost uncomfortable to watch. It felt incredibly organic to tie his loss to Jamie's loss of Faith. I have no idea if Natives also engaged in some version of typical 18th century European dueling practices as that felt more like the showrunners at some point realized that most of an episode had gone by with very little action adventure.

At least Claire's moved on to experimenting with ether on other people.

I don't even dislike Malva as much as most people seem to and I'm already just exhausted watching her smirking and skulking about.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I did have to pause his big sex scene to google how old the actor is because we were introduced to him playing a teenager and he still has such a baby face it was almost uncomfortable to watch.

What's freaky is that as a kid he was in the Doctor Who episode "Utopia".

[Cdh20]

Show writers for the win! We always wanted to know how Malva knows what Jamie looks like naked. And this time when Jamie comes home Claire is the horny one! 
 

And everytime Jamie remembers Faith it brings tears to my eyes! ❤️😭
 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

Show writers for the win! We always wanted to know how Malva knows what Jamie looks like naked. And this time when Jamie comes home Claire is the horny one! 
 

And everytime Jamie remembers Faith it brings tears to my eyes! ❤️😭
 

In the buik, I think I remember how it was revealed that Malva saw Jamie bathing in the river nekkid and that’s how she knew about his scars. But for Show, this also works.

[Haleth]

Wait a minute.  For people who have read Tell the Bees:

Spoiler

The baby boy Ian's wife had, is that the wee lad he brings back from up north in Bees?  The boy is his son and not the son of her second husband?

Poor Ian.  How awful to feel so powerless, to not truly understand the culture, and to be turned out so cruelly.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Haleth

[Eureka]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Wait a minute.  For people who have read Tell the Bees:

  Reveal spoiler

The baby boy Ian's wife had, is that the wee lad he brings back from up north in Bees?  The boy is his son and not the son of her second husband?

Poor Ian.  How awful to feel so powerless, to not truly understand the culture, and to be turned out so cruelly.

I think you are correct about your spoiler question. 

[aemom]

A couple of things:

Tom Christie asked Claire on a previous episode why she never covered her hair, but I noticed that Malva never has her hair covered.  Is it that only married women are supposed to do that or women of "a certain age?"

When they flipped the scripts and had Marsali kill Brown, I thought that they were going to go a terrible way and have her (and Fergus) believe that Henri Christian was a dwarf because God was punishing her for the murder.  I'm really glad that this hasn't happened because DG already cooks up enough grief and misery in her books, we really don't need any extra!

John Bell did a fabulous job in this episode.  Sophie Skelton is as exciting as a dishrag, as usual.

[FnkyChkn34]

Was it my imagination, or was Caitriona visibly pregnant in this episode? The scene in the barn had very choppy editing with what I'm assuming was a body double. 

[Cdh20]

22 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Was it my imagination, or was Caitriona visibly pregnant in this episode? The scene in the barn had very choppy editing with what I'm assuming was a body double. 

I would say yes, a body double was indeed needed. 

34 minutes ago, aemom said:

A couple of things:

Tom Christie asked Claire on a previous episode why she never covered her hair, but I noticed that Malva never has her hair covered.  Is it that only married women are supposed to do that or women of "a certain age?"

When they flipped the scripts and had Marsali kill Brown, I thought that they were going to go a terrible way and have her (and Fergus) believe that Henri Christian was a dwarf because God was punishing her for the murder.  I'm really glad that this hasn't happened because DG already cooks up enough grief and misery in her books, we really don't need any extra!

John Bell did a fabulous job in this episode.  Sophie Skelton is as exciting as a dishrag, as usual.

I think it’s just married women. 

[kwnyc]

It turns out that some Cherokee did hide when the tribe was forced off its land, and still have a reservation in North Carolina. (I looked it up). So Jamie's advice did help them.

[SassAndSnacks]

Random thoughts as I watched - 

- Cold open featuring Ian??  YES, PLEASE!

- Emily looks exactly as I pictured her while reading the books.  Well done, casting team.  

- Fergus going to River Run with Mr. Bugg.  WE ARE SO GETTING A FRENCH GOLD STRORYLINE.  (I am unreasonably excited about this.)

- At first I was annoyed that Ian was telling Jamie his story and not Brianna, but when Jamie brought up Faith, it came full circle and clicked for me.  Well done, Show.  In doing this, I feel like we got more Ian and less Bree, which is always a good thing.  

- Malva.  Oh, FFS.  I loathe this girl.  I so loathe this girl.  Good job, Show, for 1) making her so freaking creepy but not in a completely acute way; and 2) including that final scene to explain why/how she knows about Jamie's scars.  The Buik's excuse for this was a little weak and lame.  

20 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don’t understand why Claire has her as an apprentice when she constantly brings up what Claire does as “witchcraft” even if she Says she doesn’t believe it or tells Allan or her father anything. 

Yes.  I'll never understand why these strong characters continue to carry on with people who don't trust them, don't like them, think they are evil, etc.  Similar to Jamie and his tenants who have absolutely no respect or appreciation for him.  Get the toxic people out of your lives!

14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

His story still drags a bit here but mostly works and comes off a lot less hey these books were written in the '90s so here's our Dances With Wolves lite plotline.

Oh, my goodness, yes.  I saw on another thread that viewers were likening this to Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman, and I can see that, too.  

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Wait a minute.  For people who have read Tell the Bees:

I think there was still some gray area with your Spoiler.  I think DG pretty much lays out that it couldn't happen with Ian and Emily because of the Rh factor.  As someone who has had four rhogam shots, I don't think it is possible without those, but I'm not completely sure.  I just know I needed the shots for healthy pregnancies.  And ouch...it's a big needle.  

18 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

It turns out that some Cherokee did hide when the tribe was forced off its land, and still have a reservation in North Carolina.

Yes!  The East and West Cherokee.  See, Claire and Co. did change the future! 

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Was it my imagination, or was Caitriona visibly pregnant in this episode? The scene in the barn had very choppy editing with what I'm assuming was a body double. 

Absolutely, and I love it.  I've noticed a lot more shots of her back, and a lot more shots of her wearing big aprons.  I support it 100%.  

[Haleth]

How pregnant was she during the shoot?  I wasn’t aware but will look from now on. 

[ch1]

47 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Oh, my goodness, yes.  I saw on another thread that viewers were likening this to Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman, and I can see that, too.  

This show has always been Dr. Quinn with time travel to me.

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

How pregnant was she during the shoot?  I wasn’t aware but will look from now on. 

I believe she gave birth to her son in Aug, & they filmed from Jan -June, so there will be a lot of baby bump hiding! 

[FnkyChkn34]

56 minutes ago, ch1 said:

This show has always been Dr. Quinn with time travel to me.

R-rated Dr. Quinn, LOL.

I've definitely made the comparison, too. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Yes!  The East and West Cherokee.  See, Claire and Co. did change the future! 

Weeell nae, Claire and Jamie managed a few of the smaller victories leading up to Culloden--but those actually happened, so who's to say the Cherokee wouldna have hid and survived? The fact is, they won't be able to stop the genocide of the Native Americans that is coming.

And why don't these tribes have a Shaman to tell them what the Spirits say?

54 minutes ago, ch1 said:

This show has always been Dr. Quinn with time travel to me.

That show at least had the awesome (Late) Larry Sellers as one of the consultants, so they got a lot of the history right. I was always hoping he'd be able to make an appearance, even though he wasn't a U.K. or European citizen. Am I misremembering or didn't Tantoo Cardinal appear on this show? She played Snow Bird, Cloud Dancing's wife on Dr. Quinn.*

*Why no, I didn't watch that show many, many times for the yumilicious that was Joe Lando's Sully.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That show at least had the awesome (Late) Larry Sellers as one of the consultants, so they got a lot of the history right. I was always hoping he'd be able to make an appearance, even though he wasn't a U.K. or European citizen. Am I misremembering or didn't Tantoo Cardinal appear on this show? She played Snow Bird, Cloud Dancing's wife on Dr. Quinn.*

*Why no, I didn't watch that show many, many times for the yumilicious that was Joe Lando's Sully.

Yes! She was on 2 episodes, in season 4 I think. She formed a bond with Claire because they were both medicine women. I think her character died? But Tantoo is still alive and gorgeous. I always thought she was so pretty. 

*And samesies. 

[SassAndSnacks]

11 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

R-rated Dr. Quinn, LOL.

But Sully was awfully dishy, no?  I was a younger preteen then, but I can clearly remember having a deep appreciation for Sully.  

12 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Am I misremembering or didn't Tantoo Cardinal appear on this show?

Yes!!!

12 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

the yumilicious that was Joe Lando's Sully.

Ah, yes.  Confirmation that Sully WAS, in fact, dishy.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

Before I get too off topic, the two-episode of when Michaela was kidnapped and Sully and Wolf went to find and rescue her was so verra Last of the Mohicans.

Back to this week's show:

So good not to have to listen to Tom complain and bellyache.

Again, not ENOUGH Rollo! I needed tae see him run up to Wee Ian, sense his sadness and whine and kiss Wee Ian's face.

Wot?

[SassAndSnacks]

7 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Again, not ENOUGH Rollo! I needed tae see him

I read somewhere that the dog portraying Rollo isn't so good with taking direction, so they have to be verra selective with when and where they use him for scenes.  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, Haleth said:

Wait a minute.  For people who have read Tell the Bees:

  Reveal spoiler

The baby boy Ian's wife had, is that the wee lad he brings back from up north in Bees?  The boy is his son and not the son of her second husband?

Poor Ian.  How awful to feel so powerless, to not truly understand the culture, and to be turned out so cruelly.

Maybe Emily already knew she was pregnant, and Ian's spirit supposedly being stronger with his own kin was supposed to help.

On 3/27/2022 at 2:45 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don’t understand why Claire has her as an apprentice when she constantly brings up what Claire does as “witchcraft” even if she Says she doesn’t believe it or tells Allan or her father anything.

 

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Yes.  I'll never understand why these strong characters continue to carry on with people who don't trust them, don't like them, think they are evil, etc.  Similar to Jamie and his tenants who have absolutely no respect or appreciation for him.  Get the toxic people out of your lives!

I think there was still some gray area with your Spoiler.  I think DG pretty much lays out that it couldn't happen with Ian and Emily because of the Rh factor.  As someone who has had four rhogam shots, I don't think it is possible without those, but I'm not completely sure.  I just know I needed the shots for healthy pregnancies.  And ouch...it's a big needle.

If anything, I think Malva would be even more interested if it were witchcraft.

If Ian is heterozygous, then he and Emily could still have a baby that's not Rh positive.

[Clawdette]

In 1990ish, my daughter's Girl Scout troop visited the Cherokee Village in the mountains of North Carolina.  It's in the town of Cherokee but separate from the commercialized Indian display on the town streets.  Called the Oconaluftee Indian Village, it had reconstructions of housing and community; crafters demonstrated basket and blanket weaving, and there was a very interesting museum featuring original Indian artifacts.  As far as I know, the village is still open.

For many years, the Cherokee Historical Association put on a summer outdoor play called "Unto These Hills" that told the history of the Cherokee and their removal from the land. I did consulting work at Western Carolina University for many summers and the off-campus activity was attending "Unto These Hills." The show went on rain-or-shine and I spent many evenings covered with Dollar Tree plastic ponchos while watching the performance. The drama production lapsed for some years but I believe it is active again.

The Cherokee have brought in casinos that are widely utilized, I believe.  There is a K12 school operated by the Tribal Council since 1990.  It was previously under the administration of the U. S. Bureau of Indian Affairs.

[Quickbeam]

Great Ian episode. Except for Sophie….goodness she’s terrible in this. 

[greekmom]

Felt so bad for Young Ian.  He traded himself to free Roger, they adopt him like their own and he marries "Emily".

Yet she throws him out like an old shoe when things went sour because she lost 2 kids and feels his spirit is stronger with his own people and takes up with his best friend.

Pretty cold man. 

Malvea is one sick puppy but who can blame her with her father beating her for no apparent reason. Wouldn't be surprised if it comes up that daddy or someone else has been constantly raping her (with her attitudes towards sex).

Does anyone know (book people that is), does Young Ian give up wearing Native clothing and grow out his hair back?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

7 hours ago, greekmom said:

Felt so bad for Young Ian.  He traded himself to free Roger, they adopt him like their own and he marries "Emily".

Yet she throws him out like an old shoe when things went sour because she lost 2 kids and feels his spirit is stronger with his own people and takes up with his best friend.

Pretty cold man. 

Malvea is one sick puppy but who can blame her with her father beating her for no apparent reason. Wouldn't be surprised if it comes up that daddy or someone else has been constantly raping her (with her attitudes towards sex).

Emily looked very torn up when he burst in on her tent and obviously didn't do it lightly.

In the books, at least, Malva

Spoiler

and her brother Allan have an incestuous relationship.

 

[mary2013]

23 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

In the books, at least, Malva

  Reveal spoiler

and her brother Allan have an incestuous relationship.

 

In the books

Spoiler

Allan had been raping Malva since she was pre-pubescent.  So 10 yo, younger?  The lack of empathy for the girl is baffling to me.

 

[MochaJay]

On 3/28/2022 at 2:13 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Brianna gave the most specifics anyone's come up with on any future events yet and it was still woefully short on any details that might actually be helpful to really do anything about it. "Why are you telling me this then?" Well see, chief, almost all of my entire immediate family is made up of time travelers and they love to drop these half baked nuggets of information about stuff they vaguely remember is coming and then expect me to make decisions accordingly. So tag, you're it.

 

I don't blame the characters for their vagueness.  I remember in the books Claire studied up on latter 18th Century Scottish history before coming back, then found herself in America so none of her knowledge was relevant. And Brianna was raised in a different State so knows more big-picture US history but still the wrong local history.

It sounds about right to me that the only solid fact Bree passed on was the name of the officer in charge of the Trail of Tears - she would have been taught about these events from textbooks written in the 1950s. It's easy to forget 'modern' time-travellers aren't our contemporaries and that they have progressive attitudes even by the standards of their original time-period.

On 3/28/2022 at 2:13 AM, nodorothyparker said:

 

I like John Bell a lot. Physically, he's almost the polar opposite of how I envisioned Ian from the books. But he's been such a wonderful fit in this cast and he absolutely nails so many line readings for the way Ian sounds on the page. His story still drags a bit here but mostly works and comes off a lot less hey these books were written in the '90s so here's our Dances With Wolves lite plotline. .... It felt incredibly organic to tie his loss to Jamie's loss of Faith. 

Show Ian hasn't been working for me for the last couple of seasons. He hadn't developed the competence and dangerous edge that Book Ian possessed by this point, and I was wondering if the actor was up to the task.

But I am liking what they are doing with him now a lot more; though they didn't previously have room to give him gradual development the focus he's had in the last couple of episodes is making him closer to the character I really enjoy from the books. And I agree tieing his loss to Jamie's loss of Faith works well.

 

The book plotline didn't have a Dances with Wolves vibe to me because the books had so much more room for side-characters to flesh out the entire backcountry eco-system. There's a lot more with Trading Posts and hunters & intermarriages etc to show that Ian isn't The Special One With a Unique Understanding, but one of many people whose lives bridged multiple cultures. The show has a harder job because it has to have a tighter focus.

 

 

On 3/29/2022 at 1:20 PM, greekmom said:

Does anyone know (book people that is), does Young Ian give up wearing Native clothing and grow out his hair back?

At this point in the books Ian has a full scalp of hair. Might be they made the change for filming continuity with all the flashbacks, as I guess a  Mohawk bald-wig would look terrible and the actor really was given this hairstyle.

 

Young Ian's clothes are often described along the lines of 'hunting leathers'. His general appearance is nondescript backcountry look. Sometimes he is more formal for various reasons and then he does wear more signifiers of his adopted culture.

 

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

 

[WatchrTina]

I like John Bell and I like the character of Ian so I was predisposed to like this episode but, oh what a sad part of the book this covers!  Ian and Emily's seeming inability to conceive a child together is SO tragic.  That being said, I do recall that my heart leapt with joy when Ian suddenly reappeared in the book.  (We don't find out until later about his reasons.)

As for Malva spying on Jamie and Claire . . . ew.  Talk about a buzz kill on that reunion scene!  I was actually watching the scene and chuckling thinking, "OMG are they going to give us ANOTHER Jamie and Claire love scene" when <<< record scratch sound effect >>> we see Malva.  Just ew.

I am dreading where this is heading. But as someone above already pointed out . . . props to the show runners for giving us a scene that clearly explains how Malva knows what Jamie's back looks like.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

out . . . props to the show runners for giving us a scene that clearly explains how Malva knows what Jamie's back looks like

I thought it was explaining knowing about the scar he has on his thigh (from Culloden) because of where it’s located? Either way, tis better way than the buik where Gabaldin wrote that Malva had spied on Jamie all the times he bathed in the river.