S2.E04: Victory

[shapeshifter]

18 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

My bad. I haven't seen enough of those sisters to know exactly who's who.

Plus they’re all “P” names. 
I know modern families who think it’s cute to name all their kids names that start with the same letter–—especially when both parents happen to share a same first initial. It makes it impossible for me to remember the names. 

But I haven’t had that problem in this series, I guess because the “P” mother and her “P”daughters have each been developed as unique secondary characters (although Philippa and Prudence do seem kind of interchangeable). 
I wonder if using alliteration for the Featherington names is a subtle reminder to the viewers that these are just secondary characters?  
It kind of serves to symbolize their lower status due to their financial issues.  
IDK. Are the Featheringtons considered equal to the Bridgertons?  
Do the people of the Ton even make distinctions based on known wealth?  
Or is that a distinctly American social construct, because there are no noble titles to inherit?

Edited April 2, 2022 by shapeshifter

[ahisma]

On 4/2/2022 at 4:54 AM, shapeshifter said:

IDK. Are the Featheringtons considered equal to the Bridgertons?  
Do the people of the Ton even make distinctions based on known wealth?  

The Featheringtons are definitely below the Bridgertons in status, but it’s because of title. The Bs are the family of a viscount and the Fs are not. Among people of the same title (duke v duke, viscount v viscount, etc.), you might get social opinion favoring one family over another based on behavior—who conducts themselves above reproach, who is in favor with the queen, who demonstrates education or talents, etc. Everything still being equal, one family might be more popular in society if they can afford to throw an excellent ball, or wear the latest fashions, but that is about the extent that money comes into it. The poorest lord is accepted where the wealthiest merchant isn’t.

[bijoux]

The Featheringtons are definitely titled in the show version but they have been worse off financially since they were introduced in S1.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Yes, the Featheringtons are titled. I watched some season one episodes and I think maybe Lord Featherington was a baron? I can't remember his actual title. 

But that's about rank - respectability is something different. Even Lady Featherington recognizes that the Bridgertons are considered more respectable than her family - that's why she tells Jack to stay away from Colin (until Eloise is outed as a political radical, heaven forfend!). I think respectability is more informal than the formality of titles and rank.

[Llywela]

Viscount outranks baron - and yes, that nuance of rank did matter, very much. Everything mattered. Rank, wealth, respectability, all of it. It all stacked up. I mean, this show is very much a fantasy version of that world with a myriad of anachronisms, but in the real English society of that era, all those nuances counted enormously and the people within that society knew them intimately, to the minutest detail. They all knew not only their own but everyone else's position within the hierarchy, inside out. It's why they worked so hard to avoid even the faintest whiff of scandal, which could knock them right down down the social ladder. It's why maintaining the appearance of wealth is so important to Portia - the family's social standing is on rocky ground already, after Marina's pregnancy was outed and Lord Featherington's death, so for their dire finances to become widely known could be the end of them, they can't afford to lose any more ground.

[bijoux]

Baron, as lowest on the peerage totem pole, would make sense for the Featheringtons. 

[dubbel zout]

4 hours ago, ahisma said:

Among people of the same title (duke v duke, viscount v viscount, etc.), you might get social opinion favoring one family over another based on behavior

The age of the title—i.e., when it was created—might carry some weight. It affects order of precedence, if nothing else

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The age of the title—i.e., when it was created—might carry some weight. It affects order of precedence, if nothing else

Yes, that too. This show doesn't go into it, but the social hierarchy affected everything - who bowed to who when they entered the room, who got to enter and leave a room first, it was all rigidly structured with complex rules and everyone knew their own and everyone else's place in the pecking order, so if someone's position shifted, it was immediately very visible.

In the 1995 Pride & Prejudice, there's a scene where Lydia returns to Longbourne to visit the family after her marriage to Wickham, the scandal of which is being hushed up as much as possible, and she makes a point of reminding Jane that she (Lydia) takes precedence now and therefore gets to enter the house first, because she is now a married lady and has moved ahead of her unmarried sisters in the pecking order. That's how intricate the social hierarchy was, even within a family, even dictating who got to walk into the house ahead of who.

[anna0852]

Precedence-wise, the Feathingtons should be quite deferential to Daphne if they ever share scenes again. A Duke/Dutchess is much more highly ranked than a Baron/Baroness. 

Actually Daphne is now a couple of ranks ahead of her siblings as well. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by anna0852

[eleanorofaquitaine]

26 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

Precedence-wise, the Feathingtons should be quite deferential to Daphne if they ever share scenes again. A Duke/Dutchess is much more highly ranked than a Baron/Baroness. 

Actually Daphne is now a couple of ranks ahead of her siblings as well. 

Yes, and I like how Anthony basically mocked that by saying, "the Duchess has opinions" right before the wedding.

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

In the 1995 Pride & Prejudice, there's a scene where Lydia returns to Longbourne to visit the family after her marriage to Wickham, the scandal of which is being hushed up as much as possible, and she makes a point of reminding Jane that she (Lydia) takes precedence now and therefore gets to enter the house first, because she is now a married lady and has moved ahead of her unmarried sisters in the pecking order. That's how intricate the social hierarchy was, even within a family, even dictating who got to walk into the house ahead of who.

Yes but it is also worth noting that scene also highlights how silly that social order was. The idea that immature, selfish Lydia was of a higher rank than Jane or Lizzy because she was forced to elope with a con man shows that sometimes the rules should be abandoned in favor of character. 

[Llywela]

13 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Yes but it is also worth noting that scene also highlights how silly that social order was. The idea that immature, selfish Lydia was of a higher rank than Jane or Lizzy because she was forced to elope with a con man shows that sometimes the rules should be abandoned in favor of character. 

I mean, yes, obviously, but the discussion here was around the rigid social hierarchy within which the characters in this show are operating, and how precarious the Featherington's position within that hierarchy is right now, which is why Portia is so desperate to keep up appearances and get her girls married off. I was explaining in more depth just how rigid the hierarchy would have been and how intimately everyone would have known their position within it as an explanation for why some of these characters behave the way they do. Easy to look back with scornful eyes from a distance of 200 years and say that such rules should be abandoned as ridiculous, but escaping those rules would not have been easy or desirable for those living within that society at the time.

And I daresay our own society has just as many ridiculous rules to which we all conform almost without realising it, without any real possibility of escape. That's how society works. Just look at the social pecking order in any high school!

Edited April 4, 2022 by Llywela

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I wasn't looking on it with scornful eyes, just noting what I believe we are supposed to take from the scene. It's been a while since I have read the book so I can't remember if Austen herself includes such commentary in the novel. Regardless, this is getting a little far afield from Bridgerton, so I will stop there.

[Haleth]

Oops.  I think I got ahead of myself.  Never mind.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Haleth

[GaT]

On 4/3/2022 at 10:58 PM, Llywela said:

Yes, that too. This show doesn't go into it, but the social hierarchy affected everything - who bowed to who when they entered the room, who got to enter and leave a room first, it was all rigidly structured with complex rules and everyone knew their own and everyone else's place in the pecking order, so if someone's position shifted, it was immediately very visible.

Do you watch "The Crown" on Netflix? The show is about the British royal family, & when Diana went to be with the Queen & family (I think for dinner) after getting engaged to Charles, she basically got yelled at because she didn't curtsy to them. That was in the 1970s, so not much changed & probably still hasn't.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

On 3/27/2022 at 4:26 AM, Kirsty said:

Agreed. I need Google Translate or something because that was like a listening comprehension test. 😂 There didn't seem to be any logical connection between one of Anthony's sentences and the next! The best I could guess is that he was desperate to get a reaction from her so he tried every tack, one after another. And of course their body language was having an entirely different conversation. I genuinely think that scene would make more sense if I ignored the words. It was terribly written, plus we didn't need a third almost-kiss scene. Three times is too much teasing! And it's harder to buy. Why not actually kiss this time and call it a mistake afterwards? Why so coy, Bridgerton?

I loved all the Kate/Anthony scenes prior to that, though. That midnight library scene was lovely, and Jonathan Bailey made a wonderful job of the dance scene (to Robyn!). I totally bought that anyone watching could see that there was passion between them; Anthony looked transfixed. And he obviously got a shock when she revealed that she would be leaving the country. Anyhow,  I love that we got two back to back episodes in the Bridgerton country home.

I rewatched this scene today and Anthony is definitely all over the place, which I think is supposed to reflect his growing recognition that he's attracted to Kate and resisting that attraction. So he's having a hard time getting a handle on how he should feel.

But at the end of the day, I think that the key line in that argument is when Anthony says "why don't you like me?" It bothers him that Kate doesn't like him and that's obviously not because he wants her to like him because she's Edwina's sister. He wants her to like him because he likes her.

On a related note, I love how Daphne is like "hm, this seems suspiciously close to the exact same situation that led to me marrying Simon" and Anthony's like "it's not the same thing because nothing happened." That's a mere technicality, Anthony, because if Daphne had walked in five seconds later, she would have definitely caught you kissing Kate. 

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I rewatched this scene today and Anthony is definitely all over the place, which I think is supposed to reflect his growing recognition that he's attracted to Kate and resisting that attraction. So he's having a hard time getting a handle on how he should feel.

But at the end of the day, I think that the key line in that argument is when Anthony says "why don't you like me?" It bothers him that Kate doesn't like him and that's obviously not because he wants her to like him because she's Edwina's sister. He wants her to like him because he likes her.

On a related note, I love how Daphne is like "hm, this seems suspiciously close to the exact same situation that led to me marrying Simon" and Anthony's like "it's not the same thing because nothing happened." That's a mere technicality, Anthony, because if Daphne had walked in five seconds later, she would have definitely caught you kissing Kate. 

It's funny to me that he doesn't get why Kate doesn't like him when it's obvious. She didn't like what she overheard him say and it's not something she wants for Edwina or herself. While Anthony using his friend to distract Kate so he could charm Edwina isn't a terrible thing to do. Kate was hurt and it felt like a trick to her. She didn't like being made a fool. And he came off dishonest. He's not being honest with Edwina or with Kate.  He got Edwina a horse without finding out if she ever wanted one. Kate doesn't believe he's genuine in anything because she keeps going back to what he overheard.   

Edited April 6, 2022 by andromeda331

[Conotocarious]

Yes, to me she doesn’t like him because he’s treating the courtship of Edwina like more of a competition with Kate that he has to win no matter what, and not a respectful courtship. I wouldn’t trust that either. 

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It's funny to me that he doesn't get why Kate doesn't like him when it's obvious. She didn't like what she overheard him say and it's not something she wants for Edwina or herself. 

Yes, that makes Anthony seem totally stupid. He knew that Kate had overheard him and she had angrily told him what she thought about him whereas Darcy had no idea that Elizabeth didn't like him and why. 

Anthony never seemed to put himself in Kate's place and think how he would have reacted if he had overheard that a man was going to court one of his sisters with same kind of motives as he had towards Edwina. He is total -

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I mean, I think it is clear that at this point in the narrative, they don't really dislike each other. They can both tell that they are attracted to each other and fighting it. He isn't really asking "why don't you like me?" He's asking, "are you as into me as I am into you?" That's why he moves close to her and says the whole thing about moving away if she can really admit he means nothing to her. Because he knows she's using her "dislike" of him as a way of deflecting her attraction and he wants her to admit that. 

Granted, he's playing that same game at this point. Had Kate said, "yes, I am attracted to you" or some version of that, what would Anthony have done? It's difficult to know because he was so dead set against a love match. But at least in their next real confrontation, he's up front about his attraction to Kate.

Edited April 9, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[katha]

Yeah, they are basically engaged in a game of chicken now.😉 I do think Kate getting so single-minded about thinking that she knows what is best for Edwina sends her on a collision course with reality no matter what outcome.  She can't manage her sister forever and what will she do once Edwina is married and has to fend for herself. There is a fine line between protecting and smothering.

[Lady Whistleup]

Really loving this season. So many good moments in this episode:

1) Daphne clocking Edwina as Not the One for Anthony. I like her better in a supporting role

2) the chemistry between Anthony and Kate in the hunting scene and in the library. These two want to fuck. Bad.

3) Marina and Colin. I like how Marina wasn't exactly happy or unhappy. Just living life, the way most of us do. It did seem like her husband is kind to her children and is a good husband.

Things I'm tired of: the Featheringtons. I just don't find them amusing anymore. I'm tired of Pen and her mooning for Colin too.

[WatchrTina]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:46 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't think Eloise has really thought about her future yet.  Her family has enough money so there is no pressure for her to make a great match. 

And her sister is now a Duchess so she will always be sought after by the kinds of people who want to rub shoulders with the well-connected.  Those may not be the kind of people that Eloise wants in her life but many doors will be open to her due to her sister's high-status marriage so that, coupled with her family's wealth, pretty much ensures a cushy future.

[Enero]

On 4/6/2022 at 11:16 AM, eleanorofaquitaine said:

He isn't really asking "why don't you like me?" He's asking, "are you as into me as I am into you?"

True. Though I do think it’s funny how Anthony kept pushing things. During the hunt he brought up the bee sting incident. Why not just forget what happened? Why even bring it up when no one saw them and “nothing” happened? Of course we know why. He was frustrated by the feelings the incident awakened within him.  Then he had to “teach” Kate how to hold the gun, which resulted in him having to get intimately close to her. Honestly, I didn’t see where he improved how she was holding it before he gave her instructions. Lol. So was that just a ploy, albeit unconscious, to get close to her?  Then the encounter in the library where he was a little more subtle, but during the dance he stopped short of asking her to ask him not to propose to Edwina, which was followed up by the intense scene in the library where he outright asks her to admit that she cares for him.

He kept pushing and pushing, but then when he realized he was falling in love with Kate, panic ensues and he runs like crazy in the other direction. Like someone questioned upthread, I wonder what he would’ve done if in that moment Kate admitted her feelings for him? What did he hope would come from her (and him) admitting their feelings for each other at that point and time? Would he have immediately ended things with Edwina? Or remained in denial? Because though he’d just pretty much admitted that he liked Kate, to her, and wanted her to admit she liked him, when confronted by Daphne he tried to deny there was anything between them. 

[katha]

I think part of Anthony's frustration and (bad) reasoning for the proposal is his belief that Kate does not return his feelings. Or is only attracted to him, while he is falling in love. So I do think her admitting that it's reciprocated would have been a whole new ballgame. I don't know if the two of them would have done something constructive with it since they both have a truckload of issues LOL, but it would have changed things considerably.

As messed up as it was, I do think it rang true with the theme that goes on throughout the season that Anthony is always further along in figuring out his feelings, checking in with reality and becoming self-aware about what he actually wants as opposed to what he should want. Kate is stuck in deep, deep denial for a very long time. 

[Enero]

3 hours ago, ouinason said:

He wanted Marina to be suffering.  He was all geared up to see her misery and feel that she had properly paid for using him and found her not ecstatic, but fine with the way things turned out.  How dare she!

Colin is a child, even though he's in an adult body.  Hopefully he grows the fuck up.

This. It almost felt like he was trying to bait her into saying she was miserable and wished everyday that they were together, the way he kept pushing the issue. His repeated deduction that her husband was so "agreeable" almost came off as condescending. I'm glad Marina didn't play his game and essentially told him off. The only thing I didn't like about her going off on him in a way only a 19th century Lady would is her attempt to push him towards Penelope. Neither deserves her effort (though weak) in trying to match them up, considering one stabbed her in the back and the other only wanted to see her struggling after he dumped her. 

[andromeda331]

I thought he was hoping to find Marina miserable and that she would want to be with him. He kept asking about her life and how unhappy she was. He seemed to refuse to believe she wasn't. Then asking if she ever thought how things would have been if they had married. I still don't get how Colin isn't over her. Dude, she didn't love you she was trying to trick you into marrying her and pass her baby off as yours. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by andromeda331

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Neither deserves her effort (though weak) in trying to match them up, considering one stabbed her in the back and the other only wanted to see her struggling after he dumped her. 

Maybe that's exactly her thinking! They're both kind of odious and she figures they deserve each other! (Although, to be fair, Marina doesn't know that it was Pen that betrayed her at this point, she thinks she's doing something nice for Pen.)

[wanderingstar]

On my re-watch I'm realizing that Edwina really was blind about what was happening between Kate and Anthony. She was looking at them and seeing two people whose antagonism was getting in the way of her dream life. Meanwhile, everyone else - Lady Danbury, Mama Bridgerton, Daphne - was looking at them and seeing reality. Feel bad for the poor kid.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Gillian Rosh

[mrsbagnet]

On 6/5/2022 at 6:03 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

On my re-watch I'm realizing that Edwina really was blind about what was happening between Kate and Anthony. She was looking at them and seeing two people whose antagonism was getting in the way of her dream life. Meanwhile, everyone else - Lady Danbury, Mama Bridgerton, Daphne - was looking at them and seeing reality. Feel bad for the poor kid.

Yes, this! How many times did she insist that they spend time together? At least 1/4 of their interactions were set up by Edwina.

The more I watch this episode, the more annoyed I get by Anthony's proposal to Edwina. It was a pretty shitty thing to do. I get why he did; I know his issues. I know that Kate has been totally resistant. But the last interaction he has with Kate is "tell me you feel nothing, and I will walk away." She doesn't get a chance to answer before Daphne interrupts. Anthony says nothing, NOTHING to Kate after that. Not to mention that minutes after saying those words, he tells Daphne he has every intention of proposing to Edwina. Um, what, sir?

We don't know what Kate would have said. But he could have given her a chance to respond, or at the very least, warned her that he's going to propose to Edwina. Of course, if he'd done that, she'd have a chance to voice an even bigger reason to object. He avoided her and his own objections by proposing on the spot like that. Plus, he left Kate high and dry and horny. Just disrespectful.

Re: Eloise's boorish behavior. Despite all her bravado, I think she's acting mainly out of fear and insecurity. She's afraid of being married, she's afraid of growing up, and she feels inadequate compared to Daphne. So instead of facing her fears, she attacks and disdains everyone. There were no doubt other women during that time who bristled against the limits that society put on them but who found ways to fight the power effectively. Eloise just asks like a rude battering ram. Remember that S1 scene with all the wives at the gambling party at Lady Danbury's? A woman who was clever could find ways to have power and take control of her own life.

Edited June 22, 2022 by mrsbagnet

[Scarlett45]

On 6/21/2022 at 5:13 PM, mrsbagnet said:

Re: Eloise's boorish behavior. Despite all her bravado, I think she's acting mainly out of fear and insecurity. She's afraid of being married, she's afraid of growing up, and she feels inadequate compared to Daphne. So instead of facing her fears, she attacks and disdains everyone. There were no doubt other women during that time who bristled against the limits that society put on them but who found ways to fight the power effectively. Eloise just asks like a rude battering ram. Remember that S1 scene with all the wives at the gambling party at Lady Danbury's? A woman who was clever could find ways to have power and take control of her own life.

I agree with you, (especially with the bolded)
 

I think Eloise is acting out of insecurity because it’s not just that she’s not interested, she is rude and disdainful to anyone who is interested. 
 

But for me, its not just that Eloise lacks grace or acts like a rude battering ram- she is still quite young, and the art of learning how to fight against societies expectations usually comes with 1. Time, 2. Modeling elder women who have done the same. In her conversations with Kate she was acting like a normal person who just wanted to have a discussion with a woman who had a different life experience. 

I can see how it would be frustrating to be in a social circle where it’s seems no one understands your motivations, Eloise desperately wants to be “seen” and because she’s still fairly young she thinks the best way to be seen is by acting out, rather than trying to find common ground like she did with Kate. 

[Camera One]

Last episode provided strong buildup to Anthony and Kate, and the first few scenes between them in this episode were good, when Anthony asked about how she knew how to hunt, and later when Kate found out how his father died, for example. 

I also thought the second library scene was strange and a little stilted.  

The end proposal was predictable and annoying, since they've already passed the point where this triangle is bearable, much less enjoyable.   If they need to keep Kate and Anthony apart, it would already be awkward enough since Anthony didn't propose to Edwina.  

I did like Daphne's role in this one, and I didn't really miss seeing her husband.  

At least the Featherington subplot is getting slightly more interesting, now knowing that the new guy is impoverished with Lady Featherington's plan backfiring.

I wasn't keen on seeing Marina again, but her husband's fascination with plants was amusing.  You can see the setup of Colin becoming really angry when he finds out Penelope's secret identity.  I'm assuming this will happen after Colin finally sees Penelope as more than a friend.