S06.E02: Allegiance

[Athena]

Quote

Jamie struggles with his first request as Indian Agent. Roger presides over an unusual funeral. Marsali gives birth. However, the joy is short lived when a discovery is made.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[LoveLeigh]

Spoiler

I am seriously beginning to think this is written by a fetishist... floggings, lashings, beatings. 

And that scene where Malva lifts her skirt to be beaten... it made me sick.  

I made this a spoiler because the episode has not yet aired, but I saw it On Demand. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by LoveLeigh

[NeenerNeener]

What happened to the chat between the producers that used to air immediately after the episode? There used to be some useful information in there about why they did some things from the books and not others, who they enlisted to sing the opening theme song, etc. I guess I miss it.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm still amazed how fast these people can build. 

If Mr. Christie thinks he's going to get one over on Mrs. Fraser, he will be most mistaken. He certainly didn't like the daughter hanging around Claire so much. 

I don't like the plot, but I'm glad they've pointed out that Fergus wasn't there and shouldn't blame himself. I can buy that he is feeling guilty about that. It's still jarring and seems a fast turn for me. I agree Roger needed to get him, but I don't know if yelling was needed. I also don't have much interest in an emerging Fergus manpain plot. 

I was pleased Jamie was sharp enough to think whether arming the Cherokee would affect the war and to explain to Young Ian. Bree, on the other hand, not so good though it let to an interesting outcome. Any future talk is good for me. And use thereof to make things like matches. Let's not waste them though! Claire said this last episode, and she's right, everything she does is changing history. What would have happened to Marsali otherwise?

3 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

I made this a spoiler because the episode has not yet aired, but I saw it On Demand. 

And decide on the surgery so the devout Mr. Christie can beat his children. 

[Hanahope]

You think these people build fast, you should see the Amish.

TBH, I couldn't specifically recall which side of the war the Cherokee fought on, but in the long term, it doesn't matter.  more and more people come to America and they will push and push and push the Native Americans out of their lands.  doesn't matter who controls the government or which side they fought on.  and giving them weapons may help in the short term, but again, won't change the ultimate outcome.  One can hope that Fraser's ridge builds enough good will with them that even if they end up on opposite sides of this war, they will respect each other.

and yes, they should talk to Bree, she probably knows more about American history than Claire does, since that is what she was taught.

I suspect that eventually Christie will fully turn on Jamie and co.  he'll use his daughter's "mother evil" as an excuse (and i'm curious about that backstory), but will point to all sorts of things, including Marsali's dwarf child (and yes, she probably would have died without Claire), Bree's matches, the old lady waking at her funeral (at least the poor woman got to see her son again and die rather peacefully - can you imagine how awful it would have been for her if she was already in a coffin?), and whatever else happens that seems like "magic" and "devilry."

I was surprised that Claire didn't want to take another look at Christie's bleeding hand, it shouldn't be bleeding that much after stitches unless he's torn it open again.  and his son shouldn't be so smug for being outed as a thief in front of everyone.

So you think Roger is going to find "his calling?"  i hope not, but it looks like the story might be headed that way.

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

19 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

doesn't matter who controls the government or which side they fought on.  and giving them weapons may help in the short term, but again, won't change the ultimate outcome. 

No, it won't. We've seen the major historical events remain unchanged, but Jamie is correct in his concern that if the Cherokee fight with the redcoats, then Jamie will have to fight them. The Ridge would be more at risk. It's a lot better if they're on the same side. Of course, Jamie could convince them when the time comes. If he gets them their guns, they may be more inclined to side with him. I guess it depends on how 'historical' this particular event is. Maybe they'll agree to leave one another alone. 

19 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

So you think Roger is going to find "his calling?"  i hope not, but it looks like the story might be headed that way.

If they make the building a church and a school, he can teach too. I don't know why they haven't yet. 

19 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I suspect that eventually Christie will fully turn on Jamie and co.

Jamie keeps harping on them all being masons, so hopefully Christe will remain in check for a while, but he certainly has it in for Claire. I didn't really get much of his deal in the prison flashback. He doesn't like the catholics? Well, too bad. 1776 is coming regardless. I can't see him rallying the people on the settlement against Jamie or Claire since no one really cares much about church as it is, and likely Claire has probably fixed/mended/got all of them healthy. He's just a nuisance. I don't seeing him becoming a rebel, so there's certainly going to be friction there.

Edited March 13, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[BitterApple]

Poor Brianna. I felt so bad for her when the matches went over like a lead balloon. 

I'm glad Fergus' drinking was fleshed out a little better in this episode, although I hope he gets his act together. 

Malva creeps me out but I loved her smirk when her father's bad hand prevented him from beating her. 

Marsali's labor and delivery was interesting, to say the least. 

I'm a bit confused as to why Jamie didn't seek out Roger and Bree when Claire didn't know what the Cherokees role was in the war. They were both history majors.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Malva creeps me out but I loved her smirk when her father's bad hand prevented him from beating her. 

Malva can be creepy but I wouldn’t be mad if she slit the man’s throat in his sleep. I know corporal punishment was socially acceptable in this era, but Malva didn’t DO anything. Not a damn thing. He wanted to beat her because he wanted milk and there wasn’t any? 
 

So he’s just an asshole who wants to beat women when he’s frustrated with the world. 

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I'm a bit confused as to why Jamie didn't seek out Roger and Bree when Claire didn't know what the Cherokees role was in the war. They were both history majors.

Well we did see Ian seek out Bree. Although Jaime may know that major historical events remain unchanged, I can understand Ian wanting to give the Cherokee a CHANCE to do what’s best for their people. Knowing that 200yrs from now it won’t make a difference doesn’t do much to change the feelings of the people having to go through it now. 
 

Didn’t Murtagh say that last season? (Or something similar) 

[nodorothyparker]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I know corporal punishment was socially acceptable in this era, but Malva didn’t DO anything. Not a damn thing. He wanted to beat her because he wanted milk and there wasn’t any? 

It's been a really long time since I left the farm so I'm pretty fuzzy on the particulars of milk preservation before refrigeration, but the scene suggested she'd left the milk to spoil instead of taking care of it. She mentioned that she'd planned to churn some butter but hadn't gotten around to it, with the obvious implication that she'd been off with Claire instead since that seemed to be the big complaint with the Christie family this episode.

[FnkyChkn34]

11 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I'm glad Fergus' drinking was fleshed out a little better in this episode, although I hope he gets his act together. 

Fergus is an alcoholic and was drunk when Roger went to go get him, but sure Jamie, let's give him more whiskey while y'all sit and wait... great idea.

[kwnyc]

I figured that Jamie was going to come around to giving the Cherokee weapons. I just hope someone tells them that, so they don't decide to punish the settlers!

And that was a bit of news: that Ian had a wife and child with the Mohawks. Let's find out more about THAT!

Malva creeps well...I'm not spoilered by the books, but I know something horrid will happen.

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

She mentioned that she'd planned to churn some butter but hadn't gotten around to it, with the obvious implication that she'd been off with Claire instead since that seemed to be the big complaint with the Christie family this episode.

It's not like the secrets of churning butter are lost to Mr. Christie. He could have done it too. Everyone else around there is doing chores, but we don't really see much out of him. I know that's not the point. He was looking for an excuse to beat here. He would have found one.

I also rolled my eyes at his logical gymnastics telling Claire that 'god sent her for him' to fix his hand when before 'god willed his hand to be crippled.' Oh, but when you have to beat your children it's different. He just seems to be a pain in the ass and if the show is painting him as some legitimate threat, I'm not buying. 

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's not like the secrets of churning butter are lost to Mr. Christie. He could have done it too. Everyone else around there is doing chores, but we don't really see much out of him. I know that's not the point. He was looking for an excuse to beat here. He would have found one.

Churning butter would be considered “women’s work” so I wouldn’t expect Christie to do it, but there’s no way that a reasonable man would WHIP his daughter over some spoiled milk. Whipping the son for stealing- that would be expected given the social norms of the time, but milk goes bad sometimes. Chiding her to me more careful and less idle- normal, whipping her, no. He was just angry and she was a conduit to take out his frustrations- I don’t know why these older men think they can just keep terrorizing their adult children with no consequences. Children grow up and become bigger and stronger than you!
 

Thanks for explaining more clearly @nodorothyparker- I got the butter part, but I thought that she left the milk out on purpose and just hadn’t gotten to the butter yet, and he was pissed because he wanted milk to drink. 

[nodorothyparker]

I don't think we're supposed to think that Tom Christie is an at all reasonable man. That and that both he and the son had already made it clear they didn't like her flitting off to work with Claire, so the implication that that's what she'd been doing instead of taking care of the milk seemed to give him the pretext he was looking for to take his ire out on someone.

Christie was quick to try to quote St. Paul on proper women's roles to Claire, so there's no way he would have thought it at all acceptable to do a chore considered "women's work" even if he had two working hands.

[DoctorAtomic]

No, I know. He expected her to do her chores, and she didn't. She wasn't actually idle. Claire did need her help. 

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Christie was quick to try to quote St. Paul on proper women's roles to Claire, so there's no way he would have thought it at all acceptable to do a chore considered "women's work" even if he had two working hands.

He still let her sow his hand and asked her to perform the procedure on the other one though. These aren't normal times either. He's lost his wife, and the settlement is all pitching in. He could find a passage in his precious book about showing some humility and lending some effort to everything going on. 

[Shermie]

17 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Malva can be creepy but I wouldn’t be mad if she slit the man’s throat in his sleep. I know corporal punishment was socially acceptable in this era, but Malva didn’t DO anything. Not a damn thing. He wanted to beat her because he wanted milk and there wasn’t any? 

Plus, he named her Malva. If I was her, I’d slit his throat just for that.

You’d think a fundie like him would have chosen a respectable Bible name for her, like Sarah or Hannah. 

9 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It's been a really long time since I left the farm so I'm pretty fuzzy on the particulars of milk preservation before refrigeration, but the scene suggested she'd left the milk to spoil instead of taking care of it.

Two comments about the milk spoiling…

Milk doesn’t spoil that fast, esp. back then when it was free of any additives. In Holland, they often wouldn’t refrigerate milk at all back when I was a kid (don’t know what they do now). We’d have cereal for breakfast with room temperature milk, yuck. I remember that in Ireland too, not that many years ago. So in Malva’s time, esp. since it seemed like it wasn’t a hot summer day, there’s no reason the milk would spoil in a few hours.

However, Christie had just bitched about Malva working with Claire, and I thought he said there was talk of Claire being a witch. In those days, it was thought that a witch’s presence would curdle milk, so I wonder if Christie was suggesting that the milk spoiled because Malva was becoming a witch too.

Plus, yeah. He probably looks for excuses to beat his kids. Makes me wonder how his wife died.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

40 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Plus, yeah. He probably looks for excuses to beat his kids. Makes me wonder how his wife died.

Jamie said he received word of his wife's death in prison.

[LoveLeigh]

Claire. I think she is becoming mentally ill in a crazier world. First of all, this ether testing is nuts. She was flogged herself in that courthouse or meeting house in I think it was season 1 when they thought she was a witch. Third, she is in a world that she shortly knows will have a revolution. And she watches as Jamie beat Allan with his belt and then casually asks him in the next episode if the salve she gave him helped his back. 

Plus, Jamie for me has lost appeal. He seems nuts too but with what he has gone through I am surprised he even functions. The world is boring and well, maybe she does not want to go back to the turmoil  of the 60s. Maybe it is better to live in a world where you are aware of the horrors coming than to live in an unpredictable world. 

Claire has totally lost all chemistry with Jamie. Her behavior is off somehow. 

5 hours ago, Shermie said:

Plus, yeah. He probably looks for excuses to beat his kids. Makes me wonder how his wife died.

Of course he does... he loved watching Jamie beat Allan. And Malva lifted her skirt like she knew the drill. 

I hope Malva kills him, strangles him with his belt. 

[gingerella]

I've stopped writing notes while watching this show and I can barely remember the next day what I watched, so that says a lot of how the show has changed from S01 & 02. Anyway, I appreciated finally hearing that Ian had a child with his Mohawk wife, but it's not clear if both are dead or alive. I stand by my gut feeling that his 'wife' decided to bed another Mohawk and Ian went nuts and was kicked out of the tribe or something like that. He said he wanted to go back and change things with his wife, so that's another comment in that direction. Also, Rollo! More Rollo every episode please!

I quite liked the rapor between Ian and Brianna. They have a lovely cousin vibe. I did notice though, that Ian doesn't seem to interact much with Marsali, which I find odd because they'd have been cousins by marriage too. I don't recall them really talking much at all.

The whole Jamie gets accosted by Cherokee women was sort of funny, but I mean, just sit up and say NO. Then explain. Claire will be hella pissed if she finds out how long it took for him to get these two off his crotch. And that's why he wanted her so badly when he got home...

Is Kizzy the one who originally found the Fraser's or was it his brother, and do they both talk now? I honestly cant remember shit like that. I do like that Lizzy has a crush, girl deserves a little happiness in her life.

Malva continues to be creepy af. The way she smirked at her father when he was unable to beat her? Yeah, she's definitely going to go batshit cray soon. She's a brunette Leery. And the way her brother acts all butt hurt when Jamie comes by to tell them no church, yes meeting house, he was so angry looking, who gives a fuck dude? Your father sold you out to be beaten for stealing, I don't get why he's coping a shitty attitude like his dad. And then there's good ol pops, a real lovely guy. He won't get his hand operated on because it'll give him full mobility, but he'll get it operated on so he can beat his grown daughter's ass? The sooner we get rid of this family the better.

The whole Mohawk, or were they Cherokee? Anyway, those interactions were so stilted the way they have the Native Americans talking. It sounds hokey and always takes me out of the moment.

The Marsali/Fergus nipple sucking thing...is that an actual thing? And were they actually doing it when everyone else was in the other room? I mean seriously? I was not expecting a dwarf baby though, that threw me for a loop, and of course Fergus can't deal, but Marsali was lovely. Again, I could watch more Marsali and waaaaay less Brianna like, all the time.

Other stuff happened but I can't remember it so it must not have been interesting or scintillating enough to mention!

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, gingerella said:

The whole Mohawk, or were they Cherokee?

They were Cherokee.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know if it's real or not, but Fergus did say that he saw it work in the brothels when he was there, so they at least gave a reason. 

[Beeyago]

22 minutes ago, gingerella said:

that says a lot of how the show has changed from S01 & 02

Same. It took me 3 separate attempts to watch this episode. I fell asleep during my first attempt. And lots of weird, random, or cringe worthy moments. The Cherokee women all over him was dumb and what was up with the dead lady waking up at her own funeral??  Just so many WTH moments. Too many to list. 

[Shermie]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I've stopped writing notes while watching this show and I can barely remember the next day what I watched, so that says a lot of how the show has changed from S01 & 02.

I wish the writer had kept the story set in Scotland, or at least Britain. The whole appeal was the Scottish history, the accents, the scenery. I understand little segues into France and even visiting America maybe (although in those days people didn’t just casually jaunt across the pond), but having the story set in America has made it dull. The scenery is familiar, the storylines are not as exciting. They really had to stretch credibility to get all the favourite characters there, and now we don’t get great ones like Jenny anymore. 

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

The Marsali/Fergus nipple sucking thing...is that an actual thing?

Yes, sex can stimulate or encourage labour, especially if the woman orgasms. 

[FnkyChkn34]

13 hours ago, gingerella said:

I've stopped writing notes while watching this show and I can barely remember the next day what I watched, so that says a lot of how the show has changed from S01 & 02.

. . .

Other stuff happened but I can't remember it so it must not have been interesting or scintillating enough to mention!

 

12 hours ago, Beeyago said:

Same. It took me 3 separate attempts to watch this episode. I fell asleep during my first attempt. And lots of weird, random, or cringe worthy moments. The Cherokee women all over him was dumb and what was up with the dead lady waking up at her own funeral??  Just so many WTH moments. Too many to list. 

Totally agree!

This show jumped the shark (literally?  Were there sharks in that hurricane?) in Season 3.  It would have been good to remain a trilogy.  

I know this is the no book talk thread, but I did try to read the books - they are just as bad.  I made it to just starting Book 5 before I quit about 70 pages in or so.  Dare I say that she needed a better editor?  Yes, I read books expecting proper grammar and well written sentences, not just a good story.

[DoctorAtomic]

11 hours ago, Shermie said:

Yes, sex can stimulate or encourage labour, especially if the woman orgasms.

Well, Fergus don't have to worry about being less of a man there! Knowing that guy, she's probably got double pregnant. 

I do think the southern point of view of the Revolution could be interesting if only due to more future talk. I'd be interested in more relations and diplomacy with the Native Americans. But the show was more tightly plotted in the run up to Culloden and having Black Jack around. I mean, Christie ain't no Black Jack with his tiny gnarled man hands. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Beeyago]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I made it to just starting Book 5 before I quit about 70 pages in or so.  

I'm still struggling to get thru the 2nd one. LOL

[Noneofyourbusiness]

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

Is Kizzy the one who originally found the Fraser's or was it his brother, and do they both talk now? I honestly cant remember shit like that. I do like that Lizzy has a crush, girl deserves a little happiness in her life.

And the way her brother acts all butt hurt when Jamie comes by to tell them no church, yes meeting house, he was so angry looking, who gives a fuck dude? Your father sold you out to be beaten for stealing, I don't get why he's coping a shitty attitude like his dad.

Josiah is the one who came to Fraser's Ridge originally as a trapper and later told them about his brother Kezziah who was deaf and had escaped the Beardsleys more recently with his help.

I don't think that was it at all. Allan kept looking at his father to see how he would react. He'd probably never seen someone stand up to him like that. He didn't seem angry.

[nara]

1. Malva really reminds me of a creepy version of Jamie’s sister Jenny.

2. I am a little afraid that she is going to go after Fergus or Jamie to experience the pleasure that Claire described.

3. Mrs Bug hearing Claire and Jamie having sex reminded me of the very first episode with a Claire and Frank in that inn in Inverness.

4. Glad Fergus got his act together, albeit briefly. I do think it’s interesting how people assumed medical issues had their origins in morality. (I am being punished by god with a miscarriage/dwarf/infertility.)

5. I really liked the discussion around Native Americans and the USA. Would they have been better off as part of the British Empire? I hope this debate continues.

6. Christie is clearly the new Father Bain. I hope they are not just recycling plot at this point…

[goldilocks]

On 3/15/2022 at 10:19 PM, Shermie said:

Yes, sex can stimulate or encourage labour, especially if the woman orgasms

It’s actually the semen that does it. Our doctor explained this and when my due date came and went, she suggested we go home and have sex (to hubby’s delight). After being weeks late, I went into labor later that day. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by goldilocks

[goldilocks]

On 3/13/2022 at 3:33 PM, LoveLeigh said:

I am seriously beginning to think this is written by a fetishist... floggings, lashings, beatings. 

And that scene where Malva lifts her skirt to be beaten... it made me sick.  

But that’s how it was in that time period. 

[mythoughtis]

I found Marva a lot more enjoyable this week. She is obviously interested in learning from Claire and wants more from life that being Daddy’s whipping girl.  I also found her look when his hand wouldn’t allow him to beat her realistic.  When you are being abused, any sign of weakness in your abused means  a lot.  I don’t see her as being a troublemaker for Claire any more. 
We knew Ian had a Mohawk wife ( or love  at least),but we didn’t know about a child. 

[Camera One]

I know they need conflict, but Tom Christie is just so despicable, and a hypocrite, claiming to be holier-than-thou but acting hatefully towards others.   I hope Marva isn't going to turn psycho.  I sort of like seeing people learn from Claire.  Was the brother keeping Malva from Claire to protect his sister, or is he as hardline as his father?

Claire needs to stop helping people who don't deserve it.  She also tried to help heal that evil Brown brother, too, and he deserved to die ten times over.  I don't understand why she is so blasé about people thinking she was a witch. 

And now Roger showing that boy the "miracle" matches?  Of course the kid will tell Tom.  Things are going to go south and with this show, that means shock and awe in the sickest sense.

That was certainly an interesting funeral service.  Roger can't do anything right, LOL.

They give Fergus a "storyline", but it seemed to be more about Marsali than Fergus.  I'm glad she got more screentime, though.  I hope that continues.

On 3/13/2022 at 4:20 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Jamie is correct in his concern that if the Cherokee fight with the redcoats, then Jamie will have to fight them. The Ridge would be more at risk. It's a lot better if they're on the same side. Of course, Jamie could convince them when the time comes. If he gets them their guns, they may be more inclined to side with him. I guess it depends on how 'historical' this particular event is. Maybe they'll agree to leave one another alone. 

I agree Jaime's assessment made a lot of sense.  

Knowing what's coming, I still don't get why Jaime and family didn't head up to Canada and get some land there before the revolution begins.  And now they're all established, which makes it so much harder.  Loyalist or Patriot, things are going to get ugly and they're not spring chickens anymore, as you can tell from their 10 white hairs.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Camera One

[gingerella]

39 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Knowing what's coming, I still don't get why Jaime and family didn't head up to Canada and get some land there before the revolution begins.  And now they're all established, which makes it so much harder.  Loyalist or Patriot, things are going to get ugly and they're not spring chickens anymore, as you can tell from their 10 white hairs.

Man, I thought you had already watched this season! Yeah, the Canada scenario would have made a helluva lot.more sense for that family wouldn't it. That said, you can't just walk away from the immense amount of land that Jamie was given...though if you know what's coming I suppose it's save yourself or go down with your land...so yeah, Canada eh?

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Man, I thought you had already watched this season! 

After last season, I decided to give this show a rest for awhile!  

[gingerella]

Just now, Camera One said:

After last season, I decided to give this show a rest for awhile!  

Haha, how'd that work out for ya?! Some things never change and this show is one of em! That said, I look forward to reading your thoughts!

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

I hope Marva isn't going to turn psycho.

It's actually Malva.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm just going to say I like my quote. I think I enjoyed the season overall because I watched in real time with everyone else and was able to participate in the discussion. 

Keep posting. 

[Maisiesmom]

Well, I'm Trying not to burn through these episodes like Bree's matches but some of it was pretty funny. I like the Chief-he thinks Jamie is funny. Can anyone tell me what the metal rings on the Indians clothes are for? What I thought was funny was the two gals coming into the tent to try to seduce Jamie and IAN! was cracking up about it. Then Jamie goes home all horny and tells Claire "I must have you! and she's like Well, alrighty then- HA!  Poor Roger's preaching at the funeral went all kinds of sideways since the poor woman wasn't quite dead yet.  I liked that Roger scolded Fergus about not being around for his wife but at least he came back and tried to help with the birth. The baby was cute! And we find out that IAN! had a child too.  Jamie should get the Indians some guns-at least they might have a chance when the war comes. And, it was nice to see Adso again-I have a cat that looks just like him (except mine is a female) See ya later!

[DoctorAtomic]

Jamie is worried they'll use the guns against the revolutionaries though. He's got a reasonable dilemma on his hands knowing what's coming. 

Also, I believe the correct spelling is 'young Ian'.