S21.E04: Fault Lines

[blackwing]

17 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

My main question was, surely the defendant had the right to know about the prosecution offering her a plea deal, Maroun getting Bernard to give her the transcripts may not have been by the book, but why couldn’t Maroun, and Price as well for that matter, inform her that they were offering her a deal? She had the right to know, and they should’ve insisted she be present in the meeting at the DA’s office. That was the episode’s main flaw. Also, with Lucy going for a psych defense, the show REALLY missed an opportunity to bring back Skoda or Olivet to examine her, or even introduce a new shrink.

I didn't understand that either.  Couldn't the prosecution have insisted that she be there?  Or ask the judge to ensure that the offer was actually communicated to defendant?  Especially since she was under a guardianship, they wanted to make sure she got the offer.

I also didn't understand the psych defence and why that would have been a good thing for her, and particularly, her dad.  "I shouldn't be responsible for my actions because my dad is a controlling dickwad who won't let me do anything so he had the judge deny my request and that made me mad so I snapped."  What about that situation leads to a psych defence?  It says to me that Dad shouldn't have kept her locked in the dungeon, I would have charged Dad with some kind of abuse of the guardianship.

16 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Who was the older woman at the defense table?

 

16 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

Was it Jessica Tuck?  I kinda tuned out…

Yes, Jessica Tuck, who I still identify as Megan Gordon Harrison from "One Life To Live", despite the fact that it's been 30 years and she's been on many things since then (although seemingly never as a lead).

7 hours ago, storyskip said:

For me, personally, it is Maroun who needs to go, or at least the actress.  Maroun as a character seems written as a good foil for both McCoy and Price but I find the actress to be one note and unable to deliver the goods.  I've watched L&O for years and almost every one of the female ADAs has brought power and passion to their roles, Maroun is just .. meh.

Having watched Hugh Dancy in Hannibal and other works I honestly believe he is 'acting down' to Maroun's level.  Either as a choice, or he is being directed to tone himself down in order not to obliterate her on screen. Especially in an episode where the narrative is written that she's supposed to be "right" and her male superiors are wrong.

If you look at Dancy in scenes against McCoy, there is a lot more power in his acting and in Price as a character but with Maroun around he just goes flat.

I think Hugh Dancy is fine here but I think he suffers because of the American accent.  I don't think this actress is good, she looks like little girl playing lawyer.  Some of this is the writers' fault, they often write her as the one to say the things the audience is wondering about.

17 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

My other complaint about the show is there isn’t enough Jack - he’s in 2 scenes in most episodes, I’m guessing this has to do with his age but I’m left wanting more of him because he’s a legend and he adds a lot to every scene he’s in, he’s always awesome but I really wish they could find a way to get him into a couple of additional scenes each episode. So while it’s great to have Jack back on our screens, I’m left wanting more of him.

5 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

*sigh* Okay, here goes. Sam Waterson is too old. It breaks my heart because I love him so much and I was really looking forward to seeing him again. But he does not look or sound well. Bring back Cutter or find somebody else with Sam's gravitas but give the old man a break. Flame away.

I agree with Peaches.  I think Sam Waterston is too old.  To me it often looks like he has had a stroke.  Like in his first appearance, he speaks slowly, he looks glassy eyed and confused.

I wish they hadn't ruined Carey Lowell's character with the events in the first episode, because I think she could have made a better DA than Sam Waterston given his age.  I know they brought him back for the nostalgia for the TV show, but really, at 81 years old and in the condition he is in, I think McCoy would have retired a long time ago.  He looks frail and sickly.  If they wanted Waterston on the show they could have had him occasionally pop up when characters consult with McCoy.  I don't think McCoy would have been (re-)elected given his health.

[LittleIggy]

The DAs in past seasons were never on for very much of an episode’s running time.

[blackwing]

One other thing that I still don't understand.. how come suspects on this show always right away refuse to talk to the police?  When Cosgrove and Bernard went to the tennis facility, they already had Lucy's DNA from the hair on the fire extinguisher, didn't they?  And they had already talked with the boyfriend.  The dad was all "she's not talking to you" and then she said it and they walked away.  Since they had the DNA on the murder weapon, couldn't Cosgrove and Bernard have cuffed her and brought her in to the station?  At the station, she could have then asserted her rights and asked for a lawyer.  But the show did this earlier this season too, the Elizabeth Holmes type refused to talk and all the lawyers walked out of the room.

[Xeliou66]

34 minutes ago, blackwing said:

One other thing that I still don't understand.. how come suspects on this show always right away refuse to talk to the police?  When Cosgrove and Bernard went to the tennis facility, they already had Lucy's DNA from the hair on the fire extinguisher, didn't they?  And they had already talked with the boyfriend.  The dad was all "she's not talking to you" and then she said it and they walked away.  Since they had the DNA on the murder weapon, couldn't Cosgrove and Bernard have cuffed her and brought her in to the station?  At the station, she could have then asserted her rights and asked for a lawyer.  But the show did this earlier this season too, the Elizabeth Holmes type refused to talk and all the lawyers walked out of the room.

No they didn’t have her DNA yet - they got the DNA from her towel at the tennis facility that Cosgrove picked up, Lucy’s DNA wasn’t in the system.

As far as Jack goes, I’ll say again I see no issues with his age and I think Waterston looks good to be 81, I don’t think he’s dragging down the show at all, it’s great to have him back, I just wish he got a bit more screen time, but if Waterston wants a reduced workload I’m fine with it, Jack adds a lot to every scene he’s in and I’ll be happy as long as he’s on the show.

[Raja]

11 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

No they didn’t have her DNA yet - they got the DNA from her towel at the tennis facility that Cosgrove picked up, Lucy’s DNA wasn’t in the system.

As far as Jack goes, I’ll say again I see no issues with his age and I think Waterston looks good to be 81, I don’t think he’s dragging down the show at all, it’s great to have him back, I just wish he got a bit more screen time, but if Waterston wants a reduced workload I’m fine with it, Jack adds a lot to every scene he’s in and I’ll be happy as long as he’s on the show.

On just about any other episode that evidence would have been excluded before the trial as the assistant had her moment of the episode and  causing the DAs to jump through hoops and find a work around in the next act. When they immediately came back from commercials to an opening statement at trial I thought that I had fell asleep but the clock read 8:26

[Clawdette]

I just watched this episode and thought it was fine.  I'm not weighing in on the Bernardo conversation because, while it doesn't seem "appropriately legal" I'm not an attorney and there may be some intricacies of which I'm unaware.

Sam Waterson is in the recently released Dropout miniseries about the Theranos scam and he looks and performs much as he does on Law & Order.  I think he's an aged actor but still has desired skills.  I agree with the previous comment that the DAs had limited rolls throughout the series.  We saw more of Jack when he became DA in Season 20 but I think his role was lessened somewhat than as Executive Assistant DA.  I'm just happy to see him return to the series.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wish they hadn't ruined Carey Lowell's character with the events in the first episode, because I think she could have made a better DA than Sam Waterston given his age.  I know they brought him back for the nostalgia for the TV show, but really, at 81 years old and in the condition he is in, I think McCoy would have retired a long time ago.  He looks frail and sickly.  If they wanted Waterston on the show they could have had him occasionally pop up when characters consult with McCoy.  I don't think McCoy would have been (re-)elected given his health.

Richard Morgenthau won re-election at the age of 85 in 2005.  Most New Yorkers wouldn't be able to pick their DA out of a lineup, so as long as Jack could look good in photos and commercials almost no one would be particularly concerned about his health.  The city isn't losing a bunch of criminal trials?  Good enough for me, let's keep the guy we have!

[Prairie Rose]

10 hours ago, Enigma X said:

IMO, the acting is not off but the writing is.     

I think they're both off, and they lack a strong show runner. I'll keep watching, but four episodes in and I'm still not feeling it.

[Raja]

The just listen to me from Detective Bernard was a standard tactic of Chief Johnson on The Closer. On that show along with Major Crimes another standard tactic was to try to hide the Miranda warning was being issued  while the cameras rolled.

[shapeshifter]

28 minutes ago, Raja said:

The just listen to me from Detective Bernard was a standard tactic of Chief Johnson on The Closer. On that show along with Major Crimes another standard tactic was to try to hide the Miranda warning was being issued  while the cameras rolled.

Right! I was trying to recall where I used to see that tactic. However, I recall on both The Closer and Major Crimes, the suspect/person of interest was technically "not in custody" and/or "not under arrest" and/or "a witness to the crime, not a suspect," and the law officers made a point of clarifying to the person of interest which ever of those applied. 

I also recall an old L&O episode (or possibly other crime show) a situation in which either evidence or a confession was thrown out because the person of interest had reason to believe they were being detained.

So, in this case, since the Judge Bludgeoner was in jail, Bernard was treading on ice so thin as to be non-existent. 
The only thing he (and Maroun) possibly had going for them was that Bernard did not get any information from her.

Edited March 19, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Gregg247]

I love L&O, but the new episodes seem shorter for some reason.  They kind of bop along from scene to scene until the end credits appear.  Old L&O seemed to have longer, more meaty scenes with actual discussions (back and forth, not one character explaining some basic thing to us) and a feeling of the actual stakes involved.  Plus, the twists always came as a surprise.

The new lawyers who work for Jack are terrible.  As lawyers, they stink (They put a world-famous athlete on trial without any idea as to her motive?  They knew nothing of her mental issues or her long-time conservatorship?  Mr. Fancypants lawyer asked the psychiatrist a question without having any idea how he would answer?  He wanted to fire his assistant for saving the case for him???) 

Also, Mr. Fancypants is a bad actor in this show.

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I also didn't understand the psych defence and why that would have been a good thing for her, and particularly, her dad.  "I shouldn't be responsible for my actions because my dad is a controlling dickwad who won't let me do anything so he had the judge deny my request and that made me mad so I snapped."  What about that situation leads to a psych defence?  It says to me that Dad shouldn't have kept her locked in the dungeon, I would have charged Dad with some kind of abuse of the guardianship.

I think the defense was just that she had bipolar disorder, and that it was so bad that she needed a guardianship, so therefore she shouldn't be held responsible for the murder.

The prosecution figured out that the guardianship was a disgusting abuse of power, but the defense didn't want the jury to think that. The defense's psych witness claimed that the father was a terrific guardian.

It was a terrible legal move. A good defense would have been that the tennis player went to the garage and found the judge's body, and tried to revive him (or touched him for some other reason), and that's how her DNA got on him. The jury wouldn't be able to say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the judge was killed by the tennis player and not by the hoodlum he owed money to.

Regarding Bernard meeting with the tennis player without her lawyer present - I took that to be a secret meeting that Maroun and Bernard knew was completely improper.

 

 

[scarynikki12]

When I saw an ad for the show's resurrection I hoped that Hugh was playing a cop and Donovan was playing an ADA. I don't hate either in the roles they currently have but I wonder if it would have been better to have swapped them. Let Donovan play an ADA the same way he's playing Frank and Hugh play a cop the same way he's playing Nolan. 

I don't pay enough attention to know if the current writing and editing teams include people who were with the original run of the show but it's clear that they need to sit down with any and everyone from the old seasons for reminders on how to craft scenes that are short and informative. The old seasons didn't seem to have a problem knowing when scenes needed to breathe and when they needed to be quick. 

Another thing they're doing is making it seem like the ADAs don't know what they're doing. In the meeting with the judge I was sure that Nolan would pull out a stack of documents supporting the request to revoke the guardianship. Instead he had nothing and was apparently hoping the judge would do it base don how trustworthy his face was. At least have the judge look at some papers and then say what Nolan provided wasn't enough or wasn't conclusive.

[mojito]

On 3/17/2022 at 8:54 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I finally heard that ridiculous attempt of Donovan trying for a New York accent.

Maybe he's re-enacting his native accent, which might be more closely tied to Boston.

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

As a grandma of a new little baby, I was a little horrified when Maroun suggested after 15 years in prison (with likely poorly managed bipolar disorder) that the former tennis star and judge bludgeoner was going to marry her boyfriend and have babies.

I was thinking the opposite, that Waterston looked good and Jack looked like he could still be lawyering in court. Perhaps it's because I watched him in "Grace and Frankie" and seeing him now doesn't seem such a leap in time as it must for people who last saw him in Law & Order. 

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

 

It was a terrible legal move. A good defense would have been that the tennis player went to the garage and found the judge's body, and tried to revive him (or touched him for some other reason), and that's how her DNA got on him. The jury wouldn't be able to say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the judge was killed by the tennis player and not by the hoodlum he owed money to.

But that defense wouldn't answer the question as to why the tennis player was at the garage, and why she would have chosen to flee and hide her involvement, rather than seek help for the Judge.  

[Katy M]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:12 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Or even before then, during the initial offer. You mean to tell me, even with conservatorship, the actual client accused of a crime would not be privy to the workings of her case and the defense, etc.? This just seemed sloppy to me.

I would think if that were the case, then the defendant would automatically be deemed not fit for trial and be assigned to a mental health care facility.  But, of course, her father wouldn't like that either, because she couldn't play tennis from there.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

o, in this case, since the Judge Bludgeoner was in jail, Bernard was treading on ice so thin as to be non-existent. 
The only thing he (and Maroun) possibly had going for them was that Bernard did not get any information from her.

But, he wasn't trying to get any information from her.  He specifically told her not to talk and just listen.  There was nothing to throw out.  I mean, I think she did actually admit it in their conversation, but as far as we know, Bernard never told anyone that, and it certainly wasn't used, either directly as testimony, or indirectly to use to find more evidence.

[steelyis]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:29 PM, LittleIggy said:

Hannibal Lector needs to have him over for dinner. 😏 Hugh Dancy has no charisma in this role.🥱

 

On 3/17/2022 at 9:58 PM, gesundheit said:

 

I feel bad about it, but Hugh Dancy is just not good in this role. He and Jeffrey Donovan both just seem really off. (Actually Donovan less so, I think for me he just has a resting dope face, it's not his fault, but I can't take him seriously. Just a permanent "duh.") We know Hugh Dancy can act, but this is not it for him. I'm cringing a lot in his scenes.

It was, yes.

 

On 3/18/2022 at 6:30 AM, Enigma X said:

IMO, the acting is not off but the writing is. In all the episodes this season the characters seem to take a stance in one episode that goes against a stance they took in a previous episode. Stance may not be the right word, but they are portrayed as having a "justice trumps law" attitude then a "law trumps justice" attitude. Also, the ripped from the headlines is just as heavy handed as it has always been. This is not a complaint but an observation.

It's the writing.

I've re-watched Hugh Dancy's performance in Hannibal more times than I can recount, and I call tell when he's connecting with a character and their writing, and he's not connecting with this role. He is floundering around trying to create a character for Price. To find something in the scripts to give his character depth and personality, but it's not there. It's not there for any of the DAs except Jack McCoy, and that's because there's, what? Fifteen years of characterization and familiarity to fall back on with him.

Right now, the cops have more personality, and more depth, because the writing is better for them. And it shows, because the actors playing the police pretty much nailed their roles right out the gate. Even the writing for Cosgrove, despite the awkwardness of his borderline racism and thin blue line garbage, has given Jeffrey Donovan a meaty role to really chew on.

And I'll throw in the direction isn't very good--that can't be helping, either.

 

12 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

When I saw an ad for the show's resurrection I hoped that Hugh was playing a cop and Donovan was playing an ADA. I don't hate either in the roles they currently have but I wonder if it would have been better to have swapped them. Let Donovan play an ADA the same way he's playing Frank and Hugh play a cop the same way he's playing Nolan.

😲Hugh and Jeff switching roles would work perfectly! It's too late now, but still...

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, Blakeston said:

A good defense would have been that the tennis player went to the garage and found the judge's body, and tried to revive him (or touched him for some other reason), and that's how her DNA got on him.

They got her DNA from a strand of her hair on the fire extinguisher. I don't think there was anything like that on the judge.

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

But, he wasn't trying to get any information from her.  He specifically told her not to talk and just listen.  There was nothing to throw out.

Maroun and Bernard were definitely splitting a very fine legal hair here. It was unethical at the very least.

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I don't pay enough attention to know if the current writing and editing teams include people who were with the original run of the show but it's clear that they need to sit down with any and everyone from the old seasons for reminders on how to craft scenes that are short and informative. The old seasons didn't seem to have a problem knowing when scenes needed to breathe and when they needed to be quic

I do, and as I stated in the premiere, I only recognized Fordes and Jankowski from the original run. I don’t recognize ANY of the new writers, editors, or directors. Eid was on the original In the last five seasons. 

 

1 hour ago, steelyis said:

Hugh and Jeff switching roles would work perfectly! It's too late now, but still..

Well, LOLA did something like this in the second half of its season: Had Alfred Molina’s ADA go back to being a cop, and bringing Connie from the mothership over to this disastrous show.

And I don’t see any of the awesomeness in Dixon that they hyped. Practically every opening line from her mouth is “1 PP is all over my back…the mayor’s office is all over me…” I’m seeing NO authority of her own  that we saw with Van Buren or even Cragen. She’s coming off like the brass’s puppet, except for a couple of scenes out of four episodes.

Edited March 19, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule
STOOPID AUTONOT!CORRECT

[Katy M]

42 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Maroun and Bernard were definitely splitting a very fine legal hair here. It was unethical at the very least.

I think it was more unethical that her own lawyer didn't make her aware of the deal.

[Xeliou66]

I for one don’t have any issues with the characters - I like both Price and Maroun and I think they make for a solid pairing, Jack is great of course, and I think the Bernard/Cosgrove partnership has potential even if the writing for Cosgrove has been a bit uneven at times, particularly in the premiere. Dixon is a bit of a blank slate, she hasn’t had much to do, she’s not bad but aside from a few lines she just hasn’t had anything to do. I think the characters are fine overall, it’s the writing that can be uneven at times, particularly in the first couple of episodes, the flow could be uneven and the storylines seemed somewhat shaky - I do think it’s improving though as this past episode had the best flow of any of the episodes so far. So while I agree the writing could be better, I’m still enjoying the show, I think the writers have gotten the most important thing right and that’s sticking to the L&O formula of investigation+legal proceedings+no personal crap. So overall I think the show is decent and I’m hopeful the writing will get more solid as the show continues. I’m happy to have the Mothership back, it’s so much better than SVU that’s for sure. 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think it was more unethical that her own lawyer didn't make her aware of the deal.

Wasn't the gray area of the guardianship that she had no majority and the decision was totally her father's

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think it was more unethical that her own lawyer didn't make her aware of the deal.

That doesn't change the fact that what Maroun and Bernard did was wrong.

[Xantar]

I’ve seen Sam Waterston in real life recently. He’s very frail and thin looking. He does look much better on screen. I guess that’s what a good wardrobe and makeup can do for you. 
 

That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be acting in this role, though. I don’t know anything about his health, and I think Jack is doing fine as a senior advisor to cases. It’s just that we remember him in court doing one of his legendary closing statements and it’s clear we’re never going to see that again. And to be perfectly honest, if they had resurrected the show without him, I probably wouldn’t be watching.

What I really wish is that the show had continued back when it was first cancelled. They had the perfect cast back then and everybody was firing on all cylinders. Yes, Van Buren was retiring, but I’m sure they could have cast someone good for the lieutenant. Everybody else was great.

Alas…

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Wasn't the gray area of the guardianship that she had no majority and the decision was totally her father's

Then I guess the judge shouldn't have allowed her to plead guilty.  I still say that if the premise was she was so incapable due to mental illness she shouldn't have been standing trial in the first place.  They should have had a hearing to determine that.  If it was determined she was competent, the lawyer should have been bound to relay the deal to her.

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

That doesn't change the fact that what Maroun and Bernard did was wrong.

It may have been legally wrong, but I think it was 100% morally right that she know her legal options.

[853fisher]

I thought the towel picked up from the tennis club, and whether it had been discarded in such a way that made it admissible, was going to be more important.

Speaking of which, they should have lent one to the actor playing the father. He had foundation or something all over his collar at one point. They must’ve really spackled it on!

[Joimiaroxeu]

The theme song this time sounded a lot more like the OG one to me. Wonder if TPTB saw the fan complaints and decided to tweak the reboot version?

So apparently the Williams sisters don't exist in the tennis world in this fictional universe? I don't get why it was a big deal that Bernard followed women's tennis.

Guardianship versus conservatorship. They aren't the same thing so I wonder why the writers went with the former instead of the latter in this episode, especially given the whole Britney Spears mess with her father as her conservator?

No good deed goes unpunished, Maroun. The next time it won't, anyway. 🙄

Quote

Mr. Fancypants lawyer asked the psychiatrist a question without having any idea how he would answer? 

Yes, that moment really jumped out at me because it's always been said that the prosecutor shouldn't ask a question they don't already know the answer to. Price was putting on quite a show of acting stunned, and in front of the jury no less. I think the prosecution probably would've lost the case if Maroun hadn't gone rogue--with an assist from Bernard.

Quote

Foghorn who fired Rohmbot

I knew who this meant but I don't recall ever seeing either of them referred to that way! Whatever, the ending of that episode stands out to me as one of the most absurd ones ever, even after all this time.

Quote

*sigh* Okay, here goes. Sam Waterson is too old. It breaks my heart because I love him so much and I was really looking forward to seeing him again. But he does not look or sound well. Bring back Cutter or find somebody else with Sam's gravitas but give the old man a break. Flame away.

Heh, this is pretty much how I feel about Eric Braden on Young and the Restless. 😏 At some point I think people who overstay their welcome end up hurting their character's legacy. I think it be great if they let McCoy retire and bring in a woman DA.

[dubbel zout]

22 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

bring in a woman DA

Dianne Wiest played Nora Lewin for a while. I didn't find her that compelling a DA.

[mythoughtis]

8 hours ago, steelyis said:

He is floundering around trying to create a character for Price. To find something in the scripts to give his character depth and personality, but it's not there.

Correct.  All we know about him is that he used to be a defense attorney persuaded to come to the prosecutors’ office. Supposedly he wants to show that prosecutors can be fair.  But all I see is a blank slate of boringness. 
On the cop side, presumably the new guy is trying to be a combination is Briscoe and Farina…. But NO one can ever beat Briscoe and he isn’t likeable at all.  Meanwhile Cathryn is wooden in this role  too.   It’s like none of the new people ( writers too) sat down to watch the old Law and Order episodes in preparation for this revival. 

[WendyCR72]

I think Camryn Manheim is fine in what little she has as Lt. Dixon. Let her out of the precinct a bit and see what happens! Even Van Buren got that.

I think Hugh Dancy is fine. As was said, it is the writing that is letting these actors down. Both Manheim and Dancy are more than capable. Give them some meat on the anemic scripts! The jury is still out on Jeffrey Donovan and Odelya Halevi.

In theory, they are fine, but Cosgrove is just "sarcastic, prickly detective" and Maroun is just "young, eager ADA", emphasis on young. Stop making them a "type" and fill in their characters. Big difference.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

So apparently the Williams sisters don't exist in the tennis world in this fictional universe? I don't get why it was a big deal that Bernard followed women's tennis.

Guardianship versus conservatorship. They aren't the same thing so I wonder why the writers went with the former instead of the latter in this episode, especially given the whole Britney Spears mess with her father as her conservator?

I think just like they forgot that it was Judge Ross now they just forgot that Kevin Bernard was from Compton CA like Anthony Andrews is. Or they just didn't know that is where the Williams sisters started.

Probably because it takes less explaining for guardianship like 1st degree murder takes no explanation even if it looked like a crime of passion to me.

[Xeliou66]

I am okay with all of the characters - yeah the writing for Cosgrove has been uneven at times, and Dixon is a bit of a blank slate, I like Price and Maroun fine, I think they will settle in more as the show goes along.

I’ll say this though - I don’t think the show should go on without Jack McCoy. He’s the face of the show and the most stable, reliable character on the show - a lot of people are having trouble adjusting to the new characters or saying they don’t work, that would be a thousand times worse without Jack there, I think a lot of people wouldn’t even be interested in the show if Jack wasn’t there, and the DA character is a character where things could easily go wrong if the wrong person was brought in or the writing was shaky, I don’t think having a new DA character would do this show good at all, I think it would hurt it badly. I only want the show to get renewed for a 22nd season if Waterston is coming back, if he doesn’t want to come back, it’s time to call it quits.

I’m liking season 21 more than most I think, and I don’t have major issues with any character, but I think having Jack as DA is pretty much a necessity for the show at this point. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

17 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I knew who this meant but I don't recall ever seeing either of them referred to that way!

😄😄😄 check out the thread that is now locked-seasons 1-20; and even in the more current threads-those are the Nick names I coined for those two!

 

16 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Dianne Wiest played Nora Lewin for a while. I didn't find her that compelling a DA.

Nora was horrible. Weak and ineffectual. What with all of her “May God have mercy on our souls” for every defendant under the age of 20 that was found guilty and sent to prison, or the one 18 year old who was a psychotic sociopathic murderer who got the death penalty.

She should have stayed a professor.

Edited March 20, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I am okay with all of the characters - yeah the writing for Cosgrove has been uneven at times, and Dixon is a bit of a blank slate, I like Price and Maroun fine, I think they will settle in more as the show goes along.

I’ll say this though - I don’t think the show should go on without Jack McCoy. He’s the face of the show and the most stable, reliable character on the show - a lot of people are having trouble adjusting to the new characters or saying they don’t work, that would be a thousand times worse without Jack there, I think a lot of people wouldn’t even be interested in the show if Jack wasn’t there, and the DA character is a character where things could easily go wrong if the wrong person was brought in or the writing was shaky, I don’t think having a new DA character would do this show good at all, I think it would hurt it badly. I only want the show to get renewed for a 22nd season if Waterston is coming back, if he doesn’t want to come back, it’s time to call it quits.

I’m liking season 21 more than most I think, and I don’t have major issues with any character, but I think having Jack as DA is pretty much a necessity for the show at this point. 

My unpopular opinion, that "who is everyone" is what happened to Los Angeles. And with the reboot bringing in Deputy DA Rubirosa was their attempt to make a link beyond the overburdened crime labs across the nation SVU crossover episodes.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, Raja said:

My unpopular opinion, that "who is everyone" is what happened to Los Angeles. And with the reboot bringing in Deputy DA Rubirosa was their attempt to make a link beyond the overburdened crime labs across the nation SVU crossover episodes.

Agreed, and another thing to note about the failed LA show is that the writing for the DA was horrid, he was more of an antagonist than a protagonist, and I worry the same thing could happen here if Jack wasn’t the DA. Jack is a stable factor on the show - even if he doesn’t get as much screen time as he used to, he’s still a great character and his presence greatly helps the show.

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Maroun and Bernard were definitely splitting a very fine legal hair here. It was unethical at the very least.

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think it was more unethical that her own lawyer didn't make her aware of the deal.

Definitely the tennis player's lawyers and father were the epitome of unethical, whereas Maroun and Bernard were, IMO, trying valiantly to be ethical.
But, as I recall Jack (and maybe Arthur et al. too) pointing out back in an old episode or two: What is ethical is not always what is lawful. 
I guess Price's threat to fire Maroun if she did such a thing again was supposed to pass for an acknowledgment to the viewers that ethical does not necessarily equal lawful, but it didn't land for me.
And:

7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

That doesn't change the fact that what Maroun and Bernard did was wrong.

Yes, Bernard and Maroun (it seems?) did something legally wrong--but not ethically (I/we seem to conclude). 

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

if the premise was she was so incapable due to mental illness she shouldn't have been standing trial in the first place.  They should have had a hearing to determine that.  If it was determined she was competent, the lawyer should have been bound to relay the deal to her.

This👆 feels like the missing piece we needed, but that they cut--likely for time in order to focus on other stuff.

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Guardianship versus conservatorship.

I wonder if the writers knew the difference between these 👆  two terms? I'd have to look them up.

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

No good deed goes unpunished, Maroun. The next time it won't, anyway. 🙄

Now that 👆 would have been a great line if Bernard had stepped up to Maroun and said it after Price turned away.
Hrmmm...I think Anthony Anderson/Bernard may have even uttered that line in the past.

 

[bioprof]

This reboot is just so sad.  The writing is terrible ( does no one do any legal research?  The defendant is offered a plea deal and the defense attorneys aren’t obligated to present her with the deal? And on and on ).  The acting is wooden across the board, there’s a total absence of background noise which makes all the scenes seem so flat.  Even the KaChunk barely shows up for prime time.  So disappointed……

[hifihifi]

Isn't it illegal for a member of the DA;s Office go directly to a client in Prison without going through their lawyer first?

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

1 hour ago, hifihifi said:

Isn't it illegal for a member of the DA;s Office go directly to a client in Prison without going through their lawyer first?

Yes, and I'm also sure that a lawyer is required to notify their client, in writing, of a settlement/plea bargain offer. I was hyped about the mothership coming back, and I do enjoy watching these new eps, but some of the writing just plain sucks.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, hifihifi said:

Isn't it illegal for a member of the DA;s Office go directly to a client in Prison without going through their lawyer first?

Based almost entirely on watching too much TV, it seems a detective is permitted to go to a jail or prison and request to see an incarcerated person at any time, and it's up to the prisoner to agree to the meeting. 
Anything a suspect says to the detective without their lawyer present is inadmissible in court (as well as any "fruit of the poisonous tree," which does not concern us here).
So I'm guessing the reason Price threatened to fire Maroun if it happened again is because he knew she put Bernard up to it, which is the real issue
--although I cannot explain precisely why.
Probably someone else can.

[iwantcookies]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:05 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

It was also mixed with Naomi Osaka.

Yes! 
 

Meh a boring episode.

Also saying the boyfriend will wait 15 years for her and they will have babies had me rolling my eyes.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

Yes! 
 

Meh a boring episode.

Also saying the boyfriend will wait 15 years for her and they will have babies had me rolling my eyes.

She'll probably get out in 6 or 7.

[iwantcookies]

I doubt a guy would wait more than a year before moving on. 

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

She'll probably get out in 6 or 7.

 

[Samsnee]

I liked this episode but this is the third one this season where the defendant changed their plea in the middle of the case. They need to stop going to that well. 

[Xeliou66]

22 minutes ago, Samsnee said:

I liked this episode but this is the third one this season where the defendant changed their plea in the middle of the case. They need to stop going to that well. 

Agreed. The writing for the legal stuff has been somewhat uneven at times so far, I think the writing for the investigation parts have been better. I’m liking the show more than most it seems, and I’ll take it any day over what SVU has become, but the writing could be better, I did think this episode was good but the legal material could be better written.

[Prevailing Wind]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m liking the show more than most it seems, and I’ll take it any day over what SVU has become, but the writing could be better,

I never watched SVU on a regular basis, so I can't decry what it's become. To me, it was always icky, with icky crimes to solve. There's enough ick in today's world without watching it for entertainment.  Murder, I can take. Sex crimes - no, thanks.

[khyber]

Well, that's it for the Khyber household. The original shows were so much more intelligent. 

[Halting Hex]

On 3/17/2022 at 11:17 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I like how they’ve returned to the classic L&O opening of ordinary people coming onto a crime scene.

I'm on the other side; I prefer Balcer's "meet the victim" teasers, instead of just starting with randoms finding a corpse.

[ML89]

On 3/18/2022 at 9:52 PM, scarynikki12 said:

When I saw an ad for the show's resurrection I hoped that Hugh was playing a cop and Donovan was playing an ADA. I don't hate either in the roles they currently have but I wonder if it would have been better to have swapped them. Let Donovan play an ADA the same way he's playing Frank and Hugh play a cop the same way he's playing Nolan. 

They might as well, because I still confuse them when I watch. Both of them annoy the hell out of me and neither has any chemistry with their partners.

The writing and acting is flat. There's no snap to the scenes, no sense of movement. It's a lot of "go here, now go there" without a clue as to how they got there, although this one at least had a better throughline as to how they got to the tennis player.

Although after the awful "Doubles," their knockoff Tonya vs Nancy ep, maybe they should stay away from tennis? That's the thing, they did the Tonya-Nancy story as tennis (forget it really didn't fit the sport) but they do their knockoff Naomi Osaka-Britney Spears in the same sport?

The lawyering was pitiful - sending Bernard in there and them getting shocked in court about the conservatorship - seriously, what? Did no one look into the motives, because I kept thinking "so why did she murder random judge" - didn't they? We also didn't spend enough time to get involved in the whole story of the player so that I felt anything for her other than "really, she's going to confess in court like a Perry Mason episode"?

Even in the absolutely terrible Rohmbot years (not as much her as the writing was terrible), there was some fun to the cop side, or Skoda would liven up the proceedings, or Jack and Foghorn would tangle. Now, no one seems to want to be there.