The Girl From Plainville - General Discussion

[surfer]

Katie’s cross of Breggin has been the most entertaining part of the series thus far.

Edited April 26, 2022 by surfer

[methodwriter85]

On 4/24/2022 at 4:33 AM, SparedTurkey said:

I do think it's a mistake not acting like her in the trial. I remember seeing her just act so cold during the trial, no tears nothing and thought that was way more interesting than the obligatory tear. Although I'd watch Elle Fanning do anything so its more the direction than anything

Not gonna lie, it was hilarious watching Michelle look more embarrassed than anything when Lexie (Natalie on the show) basically drags her in a bored monotone. This was a girl who wanted nothing more than to be popular and accepted by this crowd, and they admitted in a court of law that they really didn't like her much, at all.

We see the cold, icy demeanor when Michelle is running on the treadmill so Elle could have played the trial that way, but didn't.

[AnimeMania]

S01.E07: Teenage Dirtbag

The defense hopes the testimony of Dr. Peter Breggin will clinch Michelle’s acquittal. Co struggles with regret. Coco relies on Michelle to maneuver through his suicidal ideations. Michelle continues to be haunted by the past and the verdict is read.

April 26, 2022

[AntFTW]

How many episodes left?

[AnimeMania]

11 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

How many episodes left?

One

 

[Andyourlittledog2]

Okay. The scene above, where  it's dark and Michelle appears to be in pajamas and Conrad in bunny ears....How did I miss bunny ears?  I cannot believe I missed bunny ears. And why bunny ears? 

Seriously, does anyone else remember this scene from last night's (or any) episode?  Was I zoned out or was this scene deleted prior to air time?

[CrystalBlue]

2 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Okay. The scene above, where  it's dark and Michelle appears to be in pajamas and Conrad in bunny ears....How did I miss bunny ears?  I cannot believe I missed bunny ears. And why bunny ears? 

Seriously, does anyone else remember this scene from last night's (or any) episode?  Was I zoned out or was this scene deleted prior to air time?

I don't remember the bunny ears either.  But we had another fantasy sequence song with "Teenage Dirtbag" which is also the title of the episode.

[KaveDweller]

2 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Okay. The scene above, where  it's dark and Michelle appears to be in pajamas and Conrad in bunny ears....How did I miss bunny ears?  I cannot believe I missed bunny ears. And why bunny ears? 

Seriously, does anyone else remember this scene from last night's (or any) episode?  Was I zoned out or was this scene deleted prior to air time?

They wore bunny ears in the episode where they met in Florida. They both bought a pair of the stupid bunny ears when they were roaming around town. The ears glowed in the dark. Then Conrad had them on when he got home and his father made him take them off.

But that wasn't in this most recent episode.

[MaggieG]

For a second I was confused as to why her sister would ask her up on stage to sing to her when her sister is clearly mad at her and the whole situation, then I realized this was probably another fantasy.

It's crazy to me that a 12 year old was prescribed Prozac.

[Armchair Critic]

WTF at that ending?!?

[CrystalBlue]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

WTF at that ending?!?

At least it wasn't another Glee performance.

[SunnyBeBe]

Dr. Breggin has a history. He’s very anti drug.  How could it be involuntary intoxication when she took the meds on purpose?  He seemed like a biased witness to me.  
 

There’s so much that is fabricated that it seems too far from the actual story.  When they show Conrad in Michelle’s bedroom so much, that’s them texting, right? He didn’t really hang out in her bedroom and yard all the time.

Another musical number with Michelle in the center.  Man, they sure want to put her as the most pitiful victim.   I was relieved to see Conrad’s parents treated a little better in this episode.   
 

 

[Neiman]

The more I watched, the more I felt his suicide was bound to happen. What she said/did was wrong, but this guy was pretty messed up. I’m surprised they didn’t meet more in person since they didn’t live that far apart, and he had transportation.

[Madding crowd]

He may have had suicide in his future, but he told Michelle he had got out of his truck and did not want to commit suicide then and there. She then demanded he get back in the truck and berated him for not wanting to follow through. I liked the courtroom scenes but the fantasy scenes are showing Michelle as some kind of victim and it rubs me the wrong way. 

[Neiman]

Sad situations all around, but outcome appears inevitable. Sad he apparently listened to someone he barely knew. He was unstable when he met her and vice versa. The parents on both sides would make interesting case studies themselves. I can’t imagine why her parents went along with that baseball fundraiser as it was organized or why his didn’t insist that it take place in his hometown.

After seeing the dirt bag musical, I feel as though I’ve invested too much time on this show. I was hoping for more of a format like “The Thing About Pam” or something linear rather than fantasy and so much jumping around in time. 

[Madding crowd]

Not everyone who attempts suicide will keep going until they succeed so I think it was possible but not inevitable. He may have continued feeling suicidal or he may have gotten some help and continued on to college or working full time. Michelle took away that possibility and the time Conrad’s mother would have had with her son. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Neiman said:

The more I watched, the more I felt his suicide was bound to happen. What she said/did was wrong, but this guy was pretty messed up. I’m surprised they didn’t meet more in person since they didn’t live that far apart, and he had transportation.

If Michelle had told someone in his family, he would’ve been stopped at that time. She had his mom’s and his sister’s phone numbers, and she could have called the police when he was in the truck. Like others have said, it was not inevitable that he would make other attempts in the future. I say that as a mental health professional.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Neiman]

43 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

If Michelle had told someone in his family, he would’ve been stopped at that time. She had his mom’s and his sister’s phone numbers, and she could have called the police when he was in the truck. Like others have said, it was not inevitable that he would make other attempts in the future. I say that as a mental health professional.

Sure, she could have called someone that night, but there’s no sign that he wouldn’t have made another attempt. He’d tried in the past and would have likely made future attempts. He was messed up.

50 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Not everyone who attempts suicide will keep going until they succeed so I think it was possible but not inevitable. He may have continued feeling suicidal or he may have gotten some help and continued on to college or working full time. Michelle took away that possibility and the time Conrad’s mother would have had with her son. 

I feel he was responsible for his actions. Not sure anyone could have helped him.

[Madding crowd]

Even if he made another attempt in the future he still would have been alive that night. Every day he stayed alive would have been a day his family had with him and a day with the possibility of getting hope. I believe that people should stop a suicide if they can and certainly shouldn’t be demanding that he continue with it if he changed his mind. Many people struggle with depression and go on to live happy lives. You seem to be saying Michelle should not have called his mom , why? We have no way of knowing that he would have tried again. Part of the “it gets better movement “ is getting people to understand that depression can be treated. 

[Neiman]

5 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Even if he made another attempt in the future he still would have been alive that night. Every day he stayed alive would have been a day his family had with him and a day with the possibility of getting hope. I believe that people should stop a suicide if they can and certainly shouldn’t be demanding that he continue with it if he changed his mind. Many people struggle with depression and go on to live happy lives. You seem to be saying Michelle should not have called his mom , why? We have no way of knowing that he would have tried again. Part of the “it gets better movement “ is getting people to understand that depression can be treated. 

I’m not suggesting that Michelle shouldn’t have called anyone. (I previously wrote that I thought what she said/did was wrong.) I’m saying she’s not 100% responsible for his death. I think the court agrees since she didn’t have a stronger sentence. 

The guy was messed up long before she met him. She was messed up too. I hope she gets the help she needs. I hope the parents recognize their mistakes as they move forward and impact other lives.  

[Madding crowd]

Well you said “sure she could have called someone but there is no sign he wouldn’t have tried it again” which seems like it would be useless to call. I didn’t say it was 100% her fault and I agree she had some degree of mental illness although we don’t really know that about her since her family was never forthcoming about what was going on. She certainly didn’t have involuntary intoxication and it’s possible she may have more on the order of narcissistic and/or histrionic personality disorders. I think she probably got the appropriate sentence; my issue is with the show suggesting she and Conrad saw each other and had a deeper relationship and things like the ‘dirtbag’ song. We have no idea if she really had these types of feelings about herself and it makes her look victimized when she wasn’t. 

[Neiman]

If he really wanted to kill himself, he would have found a way regardless of interventions. Given his background, it’s not surprising to me that he felt depressed. 

I think it would be difficult to put this story into a miniseries since the “relationship” was mostly text messages. I believe I read that they only saw each other five times in a two-year span. I think it would have been interesting for the writers to have included more about his time when he wasn’t texting her. 

[AnimeMania]

S01.E08: Blank Spaces

(Series Finale)

Coco's last day. Michelle struggles with the future. The Carters and Roys both try to find closure after tragedy.

May 3, 2022

[millennium]

fucking phones

[Armchair Critic]

I know some of the scenes were fictionalized and I know Conrad had serious issues, but that last day when his Mom made pancakes and wanted him to go to the beach seemed like a nice life to me. 

Why did Michelle Carter darken her eyebrows like that, she looked better before. The casting was good, Elle Fanning really did look like her in court with the same clothes.

I agree with the judge about her telling him to get back in the truck and that she deserved jail time for that. I do think he was whiny and she probably got sick of him threatening to kill himself. But she also had selfish motives, she wanted attention for being the grieving girlfriend.

[AntFTW]

I thought the finale was better than the last 3 episodes and it was an okay ending… just okay.

Great acting all around.

[teapot]

Even in her fantasy her friends didn’t show up for drinks. 
 

 

[Straycat80]

This was a good series, dragged a bit in the middle, but good acting all around. 
I could usually tell the fantasy scenes from real and already knew when they were in the same room together they weren’t, just texting.

The ending was confusing though, I knew she did jail time, so showing her coming home from college for Christmas and going to meet her friends for drinks I thought was fantasy. I had to look it up (Wikipedia). She was found guilty but there was some legal finagling by her lawyers that kept her from going to jail for a couple years, then she only did 11 months in jail before being released for good conduct. 
This was a sad story, I’m glad Conrad’s Mom got Conrad’s law passed so maybe this won’t happen again. 

[KaveDweller]

I thought this whole series kind of dragged a bit, and thought the final episode spent too much time on a fantasy. 

Honestly, Lifetime did a movie about Conrad and Michelle and fit the whole story into 2 hours (minus commercials). I don't feel like an 8-episode series added much to the story, except for a bunch of Glee references.

The whole thing is just very sad because of what happened to Conrad, and also because Michelle clearly had some issues herself.

Edited May 4, 2022 by KaveDweller

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, KaveDweller said:

I thought this whole series kind of dragged a bit, and thought the final episode spent too much time on a fantasy. 

It did drag out quite a bit. I liked the first 4 episodes and the finale episode.

Episodes 5, 6, and 7... meh. These three episodes only left me with the question of "how many episodes are left?" but I thought the finale was good.

[monagatuna]

Gotta drag out the series to get those advertising dollars! That tense dude admonishing people to "BREATHE." before dancing around in his bathrobe doesn't make me wanna buy a fitbit, but you do you, I guess?

I was so surprised to hear "Teenage Dirtbag" and in disbelief that they'd actually sing the second verse, but once I got what they were doing with it, I thought it was really well done. Now it's stuck in my head and I'm not mad about it.

[CrystalBlue]

4 hours ago, monagatuna said:

Gotta drag out the series to get those advertising dollars! That tense dude admonishing people to "BREATHE." before dancing around in his bathrobe doesn't make me wanna buy a fitbit, but you do you, I guess?

I was so surprised to hear "Teenage Dirtbag" and in disbelief that they'd actually sing the second verse, but once I got what they were doing with it, I thought it was really well done. Now it's stuck in my head and I'm not mad about it.

Teenage Dirtbag by Wheatus

[methodwriter85]

On 5/3/2022 at 4:29 PM, Straycat80 said:

This was a good series, dragged a bit in the middle, but good acting all around. 
I could usually tell the fantasy scenes from real and already knew when they were in the same room together they weren’t, just texting.

The ending was confusing though, I knew she did jail time, so showing her coming home from college for Christmas and going to meet her friends for drinks I thought was fantasy. I had to look it up (Wikipedia). She was found guilty but there was some legal finagling by her lawyers that kept her from going to jail for a couple years, then she only did 11 months in jail before being released for good conduct. 
This was a sad story, I’m glad Conrad’s Mom got Conrad’s law passed so maybe this won’t happen again. 

Pretty much on the same page with you.

I did like the fantasy ending because it fit- Michelle completely retreating from reality and in this happy world where she's a happy college girl and Conrad is a happy fisherman because at the heart of the whole case, there really is a strong sense of "what could have been" for both of these kids. Conrad doesn't get to live past 18 so we'll never know what he could have been, and Michelle could have found a better life with people she fit in with during college.

Lynn putting up the Christmas lights was a sweet scene. Like, she'll never be the same again but she also has to keep on living.

It did time that Michelle started jail at what should have been her final semester of college, so yeah, regrets. 

I'm really glad this show introduced me to Colton Ryan, because he's awesome and I hope he goes on to a great career after this. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by methodwriter85

[absnow54]

I agree with others. I liked the first few episodes, but I think the second half was far too sympathetic to Michelle. Maybe it's because I was only half watching the second half of the series, but I feel like they should have leaned into her own mental illness, instead of just presenting her as a sad, lonely girl who made a mistake. I also didn't love their narrative choice and how they jumped through time and in and out of fantasy sequences, it would have been easier to follow if they established different lighting schemes for each. 

[methodwriter85]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:58 AM, absnow54 said:

I agree with others. I liked the first few episodes, but I think the second half was far too sympathetic to Michelle. Maybe it's because I was only half watching the second half of the series, but I feel like they should have leaned into her own mental illness, instead of just presenting her as a sad, lonely girl who made a mistake. I also didn't love their narrative choice and how they jumped through time and in and out of fantasy sequences, it would have been easier to follow if they established different lighting schemes for each. 

They definitely underplayed how obsessive she was about texting "Susie", "Natalie", and "Cassie." 

[aussieinsydney]

I didn't know anything about this case, so watching this series through, I had no pre-conceived ideas or judgements on anyone or anything. What a sad situation of two young adults who both were struggling with mental health issues. It's hard for me not to empathise with the two main characters, even though what Michelle did was in the extreme and perhaps unforgivable. I must say though, the two leads played their parts well. Especially Elle Fanning, who was not only made up to look very much like Michelle Carter, she also got her facial expressions and even her gait in scenes where we see her walking to and from court. Great work from her and Colton Ryan.

[nomodrama]

It took me about 4 tries to get thru this series, I kept falling asleep, the last couple of episodes really dragged. 

I can't imagine that anyone who has experienced a loved one committing suicide, and found out that at the moment of their taking their life, their loved one contacted someone to tell them they were questioning their choice and then had that person push them into doing it, wouldn't think that person had some culpability and want them held responsible. If Michelle had been a better person she would have tried to talk him out of it, or called anyone (police, his family, etc.) to try and prevent him and he could possibly still be alive. Thats the only possibility that matters. I think Michelle had many directions she could have gone with this, if Conrad's constant misery was annoying to her she could have cut off contact with him and not gotten involved. She clearly saw this as a way to gain attention for herself though. So regardless of how sympathetic the show tried to make Michelle, I'm not buying it at all. 

I think it was very important for Michelle to be prosecuted, I think her sentence was severe enough that it would set an example, but her ultimate punishment was enough. Hopefully this teaches people to be careful what they say and do, over text and social media....none of things things ever truly go away and some of the choices you make when you are young can have severe consequences. 

[aradia22]

Episode 1: Looked a little dull. Not exactly in a naturalistic way. If anything, it's like they artificially muted everything with the settings, color grading, filters, etc.. It was a little too dark all the time. I don't think they pushed it far enough to be artistic but it was also only a little bit annoying. But yes, it was annoying.

It was definitely giving prestige drama vibes but in a streaming service kind of way... so great casting and really slow pacing.

Right now I'm most impressed with Chloe Sevigny and the procedural-y dialogue for the cops adds a bit of levity. I don't know that the rest of it is earning this drawn out screentime (and watching with commercials is also not helping). I am looking forward to more Colton Ryan in upcoming episodes. I do like Elle Fanning but I feel like you need to know something of where this is going to appreciate her performance. It's amazing if you think of it as the uncanny, slightly overacted performance of someone perpetuating a deception. Otherwise it's a lot without being heightened enough to be camp. Well, okay the mirror bit at the end came close.

[aradia22]

Episode 2: Still very dull to look at. When they put on blurring filters or change the focus it does not help. It's 2012. It's not that much of a period piece. Some of the bright sunlit scenes in Florida were something of a reprieve from the oppressive gloom.

There were some scenes in Florida where it felt like the leads could actually pass for teens. They were doing this subtle shrinking thing, Colton/Conrad especially. I do think generally they're a little too charismatic and actor-y to sell naturalism. They're always reacting. But it did make the scenes of them falling for each other really engaging. Though, oh, God, the absolute awkwardness of watching two 20-somethings aggressively kiss like teenagers.

I was a little confused. Was Michelle not liked? Why did she not have birthday plans with her friends before this?

I feel like Sevigny was going harder on the accent this episode.

Sydney was funny. The actresses they cast for Michelle's friends are pretty solid too.

I think they did a really efficient job at highlighting the toxicity from the Conrad (I, II) side of the family in two scenes. The fight when Lynn drops off the kids and Conrad II doing an awful job of "disciplining" him for leaving his sister at the pizza place. No wonder he was depressed. 

The last scene in the car was a little over the top. I hope the show makes sense of the flashbacks (?)  in future episodes. 

[aradia22]

Episode 3: It's hard not to see Aya Cash in this show and think of Gretchen. Especially with the way she spit out of the coffee.

I still feel like Elle Fanning reads a little old but in the pool scene, all the other actors definitely felt like children. I think they found a good balance between letting them talk in the "grown up" way teenagers sometimes do but not having them read as actual adults. Basically, they side-stepped every teenagers-written-by-adults pitfall of Degrassi, Euphoria, Gossip Girl, etc. 

I'm intrigued by the pink hair friend.

I think they're doing a decent job with the storytelling. You can't quite redeem Michelle as a character after the first two episodes but by not showing her being conniving as much in this episode there was some tension in watching the police get her phone. Also, I'm a sucker for disordered eating. 

The scene with Conrad in the mirror was a little over the top. Also, I feel like they do a good job of hiding it with the costuming and the direction and the way he holds his body but that scene gave away how much more muscular he is than the average teenager (who isn't on steroids). Even with the buzz cut, I wonder if there's something lost in not being completely able to dim the shine and charisma of the actor.

The basketball court scene was another thing I'm sure actors love. I didn't really need texts acted out like a conversation.

I did think the insomnia talk was pretty well done.

Dramatically tearing at the bunny ears was very actor-y again.

Chloe Sevigny is so good in this show.

Pool metaphor to epiphany was so cheesy

Sometimes I'm very fuzzy on when scenes are taking place

[methodwriter85]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

The scene with Conrad in the mirror was a little over the top. Also, I feel like they do a good job of hiding it with the costuming and the direction and the way he holds his body but that scene gave away how much more muscular he is than the average teenager (who isn't on steroids). Even with the buzz cut, I wonder if there's something lost in not being completely able to dim the shine and charisma of the actor.

As adorable as Colton Ryan is...come on, do you really buy at any moment that this guy is a teenager?

I did love all the little flourishes Colton added, like the way he grins like a little kid and puts his hands under his chin when he's called handsome by his mother's friends. He fleshed out his character a lot given that we're not really supposed to *know* Conrad. I think Conrad is supposed to remain an enigma. 

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

I still feel like Elle Fanning reads a little old but in the pool scene, all the other actors definitely felt like children. 

It was probably smart that they had her mostly act against Colton Ryan who is three years older than her. I'm not sure this would have felt right if they had gotten an actual 18-year old actor for Conrad. 

With Elle Fanning it feels kind of weird to see her playing a teenager again because she already had her adult breakthrough role with The Great. I also think they're purposefully roughing up her skin texture because Michelle Carter tanned a lot and that messes up your skin.

[aradia22]

Episode 4: This one felt choppy. Partially it was the flashbacks but it did feel like we were constantly jumping to a different set of characters whereas they previously felt more connected. Also, I still hate the narrated/acted texts. Some prestige drama stuff but because the scenes were so short, there wasn't a lot to latch onto. The Lynn/Conrad scenes were the strongest because Chloe Sevigny was able to communicate so much in the smallest expressions. All of that felt so much more effective than the other two generations of Conrads. I get it... toxic masculinity, mediocre parenting. There's only so many times they can rehash the same beats. I don't know how they'd use Conrad's sister more but that actress is great in all her small moments. 

For whatever reason, I feel like they're hiding Susie, but it's making it hard to connect to that storyline. I was just confused by the time Michelle showed up on her doorstep. Was she being honest or lying to push Michelle away? It was too much of a mystery because I feel like I barely know this character.

I don't know what Elle was intending but I feel like Michelle is coming across as fake even in moments when she's not necessarily supposed to be "acting." Like, in the lawyer's office, when she clenches her fists.

I was not expecting it but the transition into Colton Ryan singing was great. The way the volume dimmed and then the voices blended until his voice soared through. I'm sure it would have had even more of an impact if I didn't know him as a musical theater person. Also, I don't know if it was just the lighting but I feel like they put really heavy pancake foundation on her when she was alone listening to the music and it was at least a little more natural and livened up with blush when it became a dream sequence. 

I don't think Colton would have been a Finn. His voice is a little too musical theater. But he would have been great on Glee. I didn't expect the tone of Elle's voice to be so husky. She was practically singing the alto part. It was like the vocals from a biopic of a folk singer. I kind of feel like in her head she should have a better singing voice but that's a small complaint. 

I would like to watch without subtitles but everyone is so mumbly.

[aradia22]

Episode 5: The line between disordered eating and snacking is getting blurred. Now I feel like they're just making too much of a focus of her eating during normal moments... it doesn't feel compulsive. They just boost the volume or maybe the fixation of the camera makes it seem more awkward. And then there are scenes like the one where she came back after her run that seem over the top. I just feel bad for the way Elle is shoving food in her mouth and seemingly not breathing properly as though that's what compulsive eating looks like. 

I don't know what we were supposed to get out of the awkward sexting. It didn't happen, right? Were we supposed to interpret that as body insecurity? Not wanting to go too far in terms of intimacy or privacy? I do think this show is too in love with people staring in mirrors and that kind of stuff.

I was amused at Cataldo still being polite but definitely sassing her by making her read back her texts. This show is a weird mix of underplaying and overplaying.

Susie not knowing about the notes was a nice touch. I feel like it was a mistake not to keep her character in focus for more of the show.

God, why is the lighting so dark???

It's interesting that Conrad's sister and Michelle's sister seem to be similar ages but they've given the latter much less material. It was nice to see a little more balance with Michelle's mom being somewhat supportive. I feel like they keep flipping back and forth on who has the better/worse home life. 

I get what they were trying to do with those narrated texts in the middle of a crowded scene but the tight shots were too close.

Now that I think about how Aya Cash just seems like a slightly more serious Gretchen, I'm realizing that everyone has largely dropped their accents this episode. They came back a little for the Lynn and Co fight. The judge came in hard compared to the rest of the cast this episode.

Oh, cool. Hey, random gay character I don't think we've met before. I thought it might have been a prank but no, he really did step in for prom as a last minute gay best friend. The doctor showing up was just as random but at least he was motivated by pushing his theories. I didn't really need the awkward hookup with random girl. Where are all these characters coming from? If that didn't actually happen, it felt unnecessary to further underscore his depression.

I liked the lawyers arguing. It made a nice point about how your judgment is skewed by the information you have access to.

The baseball scene felt like a fantasy (not in the show, but it seemed like something they invented). Felt weird about that.

Ugh, and then with the dramatic mascara... 

[aradia22]

Episode 6: There's final actual tension in these episodes for me because I don't know how the trial went. 

Not to be all "we live in a society" but if that wasn't a specifically gendered facility, having places like that filled with young girls struggling with the same issues... oof.

It's partially the acting (she's much more subdued) and the styling (eyebrows and hair) but Michelle became much more of a cipher at the beginning of the episode.

That moment when Michelle complained about Conrad typing and then erasing things... I get how reading texts can feel artificial but acting them out is also artificial, just in a different way. It doesn't make it more dynamic for a visual medium.

I don't know what their relationship was like in real life but the show makes the argument that they were bad for each other. The characters in the show are not equipped to help each other (either because they don't have the skills or they're too focused on their own issues) and when they're not riding the high of romance, the things they say can make their respective issues worse. They're too needy. I wouldn't call it abusive or either side... more like, unintentionally hurtful. I'm not saying you shouldn't date with mental health issues but these characters do not seem like a good combination, especially at that point in their teen lives when they lacked stability.

I like that they made the court trial pretty boring. Not unwatchable like a real trial but not TV dynamic with intense acting and big speeches.

I felt like they were holding off on explaining Conrad Jr.'s assault the way they kept hiding Susie and there was similarly little payoff when it happened.

Knowing that Cassie is an invented/composite character, her perfect hair at the trial and the slight (by this show's standards) mean girl energy she gives off feels like a Pretty Little Liars character got imported into the show. 

The texts from Michelle to her "friends" were rough to sit through. 

I wonder if Conrad appearing to Michelle when she was about to hang out with Natalie actually happened. This didn't feel as much like an invention as the baseball thing. But it also served to actively make him seem worse and more threatening to Michelle in a way texts would not have accomplished. 

[aradia22]

Episode 7: Without getting clones, I feel like most of the characters look close enough to their real life counterparts except for Conrad and Lynn. With Lynn it doesn't matter too much but I feel like there are times they can't dim Colton's shine enough, both in terms of physical attractiveness/age/size and charisma.

In a way, I feel like the intensity of this dynamic appealed to the character of Michelle compared to all the "normal" people she was too intense for. It makes an argument that she would rather "understand" him and help than be rejected. But also, the show is balancing showing Conrad as a character who was always suicidal and also who was pushed into it by having someone to encourage him. Getting away from whether Michelle did it for Susie or for attention creates a more interesting dynamic that creates questions about personal responsibility. How much can you help someone who doesn't want to be helped? How much do you blame someone for entertaining the discussion, telling him to get back in the car, not calling for outside help, etc.? The closing argument made the case that preying on someone's vulnerabilities overrides free will. Now I'm interested in what legal precedent this set.

There was some good casting for this show. Like, I even want to see what the Natalie actress does in the future. I don't know how Elle would make herself smaller but her height does make Natalie look like a child next to Michelle.

I do think it was important for the doctor to voice Conrad's suicidal thoughts which the prosecution was ignoring. Not sure I buy the involuntary intoxication part and even if that part went a little TV, it was solid to call that out.

The scene in Michelle's bedroom in the morning highlighted another flaw of acting out the texts which is that it really pushes a specific reading of the words.

The recital was strange. The only show choir I know that'd let you pull that stunt is in Lima, Ohio, so it was obviously fake.

[aradia22]

Episode 8: How far apart are Conrad's parent's houses? I got the impression it was a long drive for some reason.

I was thinking we'd get some explanation of why he didn't leave a note for his mom but I guess in this show, he was always just craving the approval of the parent that was more withholding. 

Conrad romanticizing his last day and Michelle and Katie Rayburn (the other person who looks nothing like the actress) meeting in the bathroom felt like writer choices. 

Whoa. I know the investigation was limited to 18 months, but after all that, I was surprised that the deciding factor was that she told him to get back into the truck; nothing else counted towards her guilt or lack of culpability.

The Hallmark movie transition was... jarring. If there's one thing this show is terrible at it's designating the passage of time and helping the audience situation themselves through the choppy scene/time jumps. Aside from being super indulgent, it argues that she didn't have a sense of consequences... which is kind of important for a true crime show about innocence/guilt.

In hindsight, I feel like they paced the other episodes too slowly and then rushed this weird finale. 

[aradia22]

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To me, there’s a disconnect too.  I guess it’s difficult to show the progression of the girl he met and the one that caused his death. To me it’s diabolical and the show didn’t want to go there. Why?  She’s a young person that they think can change?

Now that I'm finished with the series, I feel like the show was always hedging. It committed at times. Like in showing Michelle practicing her speech/song in the mirror and in the finale where she is haunted by Conrad's death. But a lot of these moments are contradictory like they want to present these competing narratives, but that only really works if you do something like a Rashomon with different POVs.

I do understand changing moods though. Humans are complicated. I don't see why she couldn't be loving one moment and cruel another, at times trying to be supportive and at others driven by her own selfish ends. There's a reason characters who are wholly good or wholly evil come across as flat. People generally don't consistently act the same for months, reacting the same way to every situation. The characterization generally seemed consistent within the same time frame. 

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Conrad and Suzie gave her the self-validation that she's unable to give herself. She wants people to love her when she feels unlovable; and wants people to see her as worthy when she feels unworthy. That feeling of being loved and one feels unlovable is powerful. It's like an addictive drug to someone with low self esteem. Michelle texts Suzie all day and night because she's always wants that "high" of feeling loved and wanted because she doesn't feel that about herself internally.

I agree though the character also seems to have issues maintaining relationships. I feel like they were more obvious with presenting Conrad's social anxiety and having him verbalize it but it's there with Michelle too in the way her fantasies are about everything being easy and saying the right thing to the point of it being scripted or a choreographed musical number. After her hospital stay, she talked about needing to control people, and then there's the way she overcorrects when Conrad seems poised to reject her for saying the wrong thing. To me, the courtroom texts were telling. She didn't just want to be popular or to have everyone's attention. She had noticed that she was always the one reaching one and essentially begging for friendship. 

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I'm not sure if he came to her grandmother's funeral in real life but I think the show is telling us that's a real meeting they had. 

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Most of the articles I read say they only met 2 or 3 times in person and they never met each other’s families. So I don’t think Conrad was at this funeral and it’s likely it was a fantasy of Michelle .

I agree. There were some scenes like that and if they were a fantasy, I think they were an invention of the show but not an invention of Michelle's mind. The scenes where they meet up make no sense as fantasies for Michelle or as texting conversations.

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I'm still not getting a read on Michelle. Did she actually want treatment for bulimia? Was it just a holiday? Was she trying to be as sick as Coco?

I think that was an iffy choice. In the timeline of the show, they make it seem like Michelle wanted to get help... and was genuinely feeling better after treatment. And then Conrad dragged her down for prioritizing her health and pulled her focus to caring about him before "torturing" her with all the suicide talk until she turned and started encouraging him so he would continue talking to her because she "understood" him. I think this is connected to the Christmas fantasy... the idea that Michelle was on a better path and swerved because Conrad demanded her attention when she got out of the hospital. (Not saying this is true. I'm saying this is how the show presents it.)

[AntFTW]

13 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I don't know what their relationship was like in real life but the show makes the argument that they were bad for each other. The characters in the show are not equipped to help each other (either because they don't have the skills or they're too focused on their own issues) and when they're not riding the high of romance, the things they say can make their respective issues worse. They're too needy. I wouldn't call it abusive or either side... more like, unintentionally hurtful. I'm not saying you shouldn't date with mental health issues but these characters do not seem like a good combination, especially at that point in their teen lives when they lacked stability.

I agree. Michelle Carter had her own lane of mental health issues. That’s what makes me sympathetic to her. Michelle and Conrad interacting with each other made their own issues worse. The obvious difference is that although Michelle had her own mental health problems, she wasn’t suicidal, and Conrad was.

They were not good for each other. I felt that Michelle’s own poor mental health were like blinders. She only saw her own needs.