Secrets Of Playboy - General Discussion

[RealHousewife]

I watched the first two episodes last night and found it really interesting. 

I was a big Girls Next Door Fan and subscribe to Holly Madison on YouTube. I also read the books by her, Kendra Wilkinson, Izabella St. James, and the late Jill Ann Spaulding. It was interesting hearing from older girlfriends. I felt so bad for Jennifer, the woman who had grown up at the mansion. I get that Hef saw females as objects, but to cross lines with someone he literally saw grow up and treated as a daughter is low even for him. 

What's interesting to me is it seems people either love or hate Hef. Either he's such a gentleman, so kind, so charming, not what you'd expect, or he's described as the worst and even evil.

[Sweet-tea]

I read Holly’s and Izabella’s books. I’ve always thought he was a misogynist. I didn’t understand why he was lionized so much in the press. But I also think many of these women used him too. They got something from him, so perhaps it was a mutually beneficial relationship for awhile. He was definitely in the power seat though. 

It doesn’t look like Kendra Wilkinson, Barbi Benton, Pamela Anderson, Jenny McCarthy are on camera for this show, so they must not have wanted to participate. Also his ex-wife, Kimberly, isn’t talking. 

[RealHousewife]

59 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

I read Holly’s and Izabella’s books. I’ve always thought he was a misogynist.

There are many who think Playboy itself is tasteful and not antifeminist. I see both sides to it. For me, feminism is equal rights and opportunities, not living your life a specific way. If a woman wants to be a glamour model and sees it as celebrating her beauty, that's her business. Just like if a woman wants to wear a hijab and feels like her body is only for her partner to see, that's her business as well. 

I would never, ever pose naked myself, but sometimes I think if I were a little younger and the clubs were a thing, maybe I'd be a Bunny. It would probably shock people who know me because I'm pretty straight-laced, but I think women are all so beautiful. I see nothing wrong with celebrating the body, so long as it's tasteful, which we all have different opinions on. For example, I find breastaurants super tacky, and I'm not someone who's offended by cleavage and whatnot. But Hooters? Couldn't they have at least come up with a better name? 

Racism is one of my top pet peeves, so I do appreciate that Hef treated everyone the same way. He was ahead of his time in that regard. 

Now where I do judge Hef a lot . . .

Someone who truly loves and respects women wouldn't only value them as 20-something beauties. Was the only woman around his age he even bothered to speak with Mary? How could he even think of seeing a woman as sexual if it was someone he watched grow up? Ew ew ew. I am not offended by older men who admire the beauty of young women. We all admire beautiful people in their prime. I also don't know how I feel about guys who are slightly older than minors being registered sex offenders. But difference between that and going after women who are barely legal when you're so much older. If you're a rich guy and want a beautiful woman on your arm, why not be with a stunning woman who's older? There are a lot of them out there. Mamie Van Loren is 90 and beautiful to this day. 

59 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

But I also think many of these women used him too. They got something from him, so perhaps it was a mutually beneficial relationship for awhile. He was definitely in the power seat though. 

It doesn’t look like Kendra Wilkinson, Barbi Benton, Pamela Anderson, Jenny McCarthy are on camera for this show, so they must not have wanted to participate. Also his ex-wife, Kimberly, isn’t talking. 

Oh absolutely. Look, I am a big fan of Holly and Bridget. I totally understand being in over your head and why it would be difficult to leave. But do I think a super innocent, naive type winds up in the Playboy Mansion? No. They were all there for a mutually beneficial situation. They enjoyed the mansion, parties, plastic surgery, possibly becoming a Playmate or famous, etc. I think both Bridget and Holly are smart, hardworking women, but being with Hef opened a ton of doors. Would Holly have gotten Holly's World or become a headliner in Vegas without becoming famous as a girlfriend? Probably not. That's not to knock them. It's just that show business is incredibly difficult to break into without connections. 

Kendra is pretty team Hef and thinks he saved her life. Based on her childhood, I can understand why she feels the way she does. She never had a strong support system, and who knows what would have happened to her if she hadn't become Hef's girlfriend. 

Pamela has always spoken very highly of Hef, and she's always been very grateful to Playboy. I'm a big fan of hers and think she's much smarter than people think. I'm curious what she thinks of the documentary. 

I can see Kimberley keeping her mouth shut as someone who was more than just another girlfriend. She married and had kids with Hef. I'd imagine she doesn't want to hurt her children by speaking negatively about him even if she's sensitive to what Hef put other women through. 

Not sure if I've heard Barbi or Jenny say anything about Hef in many years. I did recognized Sondra from GND btw. I wonder if she felt pressured into appearing, or if her perspective has changed from the GND era with the new lens of MeToo & Time's Up.  

Edited January 25, 2022 by RealHousewife

[Straycat80]

I watched the first two episodes. Is this really ten episodes long, they have that much to talk about? Anyway, I watched GND back in the day too. Holly came across as so in love with Hef, wanting to get married, have his babies, loving the life as number one girlfriend.  Was this all an act for the show? He was letting her work for the magazine and IIRC correctly he was also paying for Bridgett’s college. 
I agree with someone above who said Hef and Holly used each other. The other playmates used the situation for their gain too. I wish this doc. had come out while Hef was alive and could have a say in some of the dark allegations. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Straycat80 said:

I watched the first two episodes. Is this really ten episodes long, they have that much to talk about? Anyway, I watched GND back in the day too. Holly came across as so in love with Hef, wanting to get married, have his babies, loving the life as number one girlfriend.  Was this all an act for the show? He was letting her work for the magazine and IIRC correctly he was also paying for Bridgett’s college. 
I agree with someone above who said Hef and Holly used each other. The other playmates used the situation for their gain too. I wish this doc. had come out while Hef was alive and could have a say in some of the dark allegations. 

 

4 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Oh absolutely. Look, I am a big fan of Holly and Bridget. I totally understand being in over your head and why it would be difficult to leave. But do I think a super innocent, naive type winds up in the Playboy Mansion? No. They were all there for a mutually beneficial situation. They enjoyed the mansion, parties, plastic surgery, possibly becoming a Playmate or famous, etc. I think both Bridget and Holly are smart, hardworking women, but being with Hef opened a ton of doors. Would Holly have gotten Holly's World or become a headliner in Vegas without becoming famous as a girlfriend? Probably not. That's not to knock them. It's just that show business is incredibly difficult to break into without connections. 

 

4 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Kendra is pretty team Hef and thinks he saved her life. Based on her childhood, I can understand why she feels the way she does. She never had a strong support system, and who knows what would have happened to her if she hadn't become Hef's girlfriend. 

The Good:

As a woman of color, I appreciated that Hef had such progressive views on racism. That was truly unusual for a man (particularly a powerful man) of his time.

There was a time that Playboy was known for absolutely amazing journalism. The joke is that people read Playboy for the articles but the articles were sometimes truly stellar.

The Bad:

It was particularly telling to me that Hef called the Feminist lady on the talk show "girl" and he thought that was a compliment. Then someone described the feminist as angry but I found her just making some points about the Playboy lifestyle that was true, including the women in the magazine being stunted in their development.

I think Playboy made a big mistake in ignoring their journalism for the pictorials and ditching "The Girl Next Door" aesthetic. I could not help but notice how beautiful and fresh some of the earlier girlfriends looked.  The early 2000s over bleached and plastic girlfriends look the most dated.

Holly, Brigette, and Kendra have all gone for comparatively more natural hair and makeup, as of today, and all of them look gorgeous.

The Ugly:

I have always wondered about men who buy women. It seems to me that Hef was not particularly successful with women before he was rich and has been taking out his anger by having a harem that caters to his every whim. It is not only that they have to be young, blonde, and gorgeous...they have to be all about him and nothing about themselves.

I am truly sorry for anyone who was abused at the mansion and it is frustrating that he is now gone and will never answer for at least some of those allegations.

I am a fan of GND but do agree there is some retconning and the women have to admit that they also were using Hef for his fame and fortune.

In a recent interview, I heard Kendra say that Hef saw a picture of her and asked to be a girlfriend. In GND, didn't we find out that Hef met Kendra as a painted lady at the mansion? I think she is also claiming that she never had sex with him and I don't believe he would let a girlfriend not participate in sex with him.

I like Holly quite a bit.

However, I do think that she was underplaying her role in the sex night parties. From what I understand, the main job of the "Number One Girlfriend" was to recruit girls and take the lead during the parties. It would not be a thing that someone who is asexual would be comfortable with doing.

However, I do understand that we often make decisions when we are young that we regret in later years.

I also am shocked at Holly's transformation. I do think there are many women (much more than you would think) who actually look better in their 40's than in their 20's.  This is often due to having more confidence in yourself and knowing what truly works for you. I would put Holly in this category because she really is stunning, now.

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by qtpye

[Athena5217]

1 hour ago, Straycat80 said:

I watched the first two episodes. Is this really ten episodes long, they have that much to talk about? Anyway, I watched GND back in the day too. Holly came across as so in love with Hef, wanting to get married, have his babies, loving the life as number one girlfriend.  Was this all an act for the show? He was letting her work for the magazine and IIRC correctly he was also paying for Bridgett’s college. 
I agree with someone above who said Hef and Holly used each other. The other playmates used the situation for their gain too. I wish this doc. had come out while Hef was alive and could have a say in some of the dark allegations. 

I watched GND and thought Holly seemed like she had been brainwashed whenever she talked about Hef. He paid for stuff for them, but look at the price they paid with their mental health.

To people that have never been abused, it seems so obvious that “these women must have known what they were getting into” because people imagine what they would do in the same situation. But what people miss is that these women have had a completely different life experience so they don’t think and act the same way. 

When Holly explained that she was not neurotypical and wanted acceptance, her relationship with Hef made sense to me. In my 20s I stayed with a man that was manipulative and abusive for way too long because I thought it was worth having someone “love” me. I had a difficult childhood with an alcoholic mother, so I was vulnerable to this man in s way I might not have been with higher self-esteem.

 

[MsTree]

My opinion (so far) is that a lot of what Holly says is sour grapes. Everyone knows that she was extremely disappointed when Hef didn't marry her...especially after hanging around for 7 years. 

And if she didn't like what was going on, Holly could have left at any time. It's not like Hef chained her to the bed, and they weren't confined to the mansion exclusively, as she'd like us all to believe. In fact, they showed her pulling into her own dedicated parking space.

I just feel that she's making mountains out of molehills, embellishing the not-so-great things that went on at the mansion. I'm sure it wasn't all sunshine & flowers, but again, Holly had free will....and yet she chose to stay. Sorry no sympathy from me.

Edited January 26, 2022 by MsTree
grammar

[TrixieTrue]

9 minutes ago, MsTree said:

My opinion (so far) is that a lot of what Holly says is sour grapes. Everyone knows that she was extremely disappointed when Hef didn't marry her...especially after hanging around for 7 years. 

And if she didn't like what was going on, Holly could have left at any time. It's not like Hef chained her to the bed, and they weren't confined to the mansion exclusively, as she'd like us all to believe. In fact, they showed her pulling into her own dedicated parking space.

I just feel that she's making mountains out of molehills, embellishing the not-so-great things that went on at the mansion. I'm sure it wasn't all sunshine & flowers, but again, Holly had free will....and yet she chose to stay. Sorry no sympathy from me.

Full disclosure, I haven't watched this yet. I probably will, once I can stream it. (I live in Germany, so it's not on TV here). But Holly has talked about why she didn't just leave. She has gone on record as feeling like no one else would want her, like she was tarnished. If someone's has low self-worth, it's hard to walk away from a situation that's abusive. Even when the show was on, there was something stunted about almost everyone at the mansion. When a person is constantly cut down by someone else, they will often try to please them, do anything they can to make themselves better. I think that's why she didn't just walk away. There are many people in far worse relationships that don't walk away. 

[MsTree]

17 minutes ago, TrixieTrue said:

Full disclosure, I haven't watched this yet. I probably will, once I can stream it. (I live in Germany, so it's not on TV here). But Holly has talked about why she didn't just leave. She has gone on record as feeling like no one else would want her, like she was tarnished. If someone's has low self-worth, it's hard to walk away from a situation that's abusive. Even when the show was on, there was something stunted about almost everyone at the mansion. When a person is constantly cut down by someone else, they will often try to please them, do anything they can to make themselves better. I think that's why she didn't just walk away. There are many people in far worse relationships that don't walk away. 

Understand your point of view, but I don't believe their relationship was as abusive as she'd like us to believe. I also understand she has/had low self-esteem, and wanted to continue pleasing Hef in hopes that things will get better. But there has to be a point where one says "enough"....and not sure it should take 7 years. 

Also, wondering why only a handful of women (so far) are only speaking negatively about Hef and the parties, etc. I can understand everyone not wanting to speak while Hef was alive, afraid of retribution. But Hef's been dead for a few years now, so why bring up all this stuff now?

Edited January 26, 2022 by MsTree

[Tatum]

I haven't watched this yet but will probably check out soon. I have read Holly's book about life in the mansion and unless Holly is lying through her teeth, I believe Hef was abusive to her. Not physically, but I believe he purposely sabotaged her chances of making friends within the house, was manipulative and controlling, and did not want her having outside income or relationships. I think he also delighted in undermining her and making her feel bad about herself. I think Hef seems like a pretty horrible person. He absolutely seems like a predator to me.

I also believe that he was not this way to everyone, and that even the women he did treat in the same vein as Holly may not have recognized his behavior as abusive, which is why there isn't more of an outcry. There is also a lot of judgment on the women who stay in these relationships, so I could see why more women don't come forward, even if they did experience what Holly did and did recognize what was happening, even if it took years to do so.

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think she is also claiming that she never had sex with him and I don't believe he would let a girlfriend not participate in sex with him.

I will maybe buy that they never had P in V sex (which from what I've heard, Hef wasn't that into anyways) but I do not buy for one minute that she never gave him a BJ, and I would argue that if she simulated sex with another woman purely as a performance for Hef, it is merely just semantics to say she never had sex with him. By that I mean it's a pure technicality- she's engaged in some kind of sexual activity with Hef.

[Gharlane]

I was a regular casual viewer when GND originally aired, but I think I was reality TV savvy enough at the time to recognize it for what it was. I also frequented the forum on the TVwoP site and learned most of what I know about Hefner from there.

Quote

"The Playboy Legacy". Hugh Hefner sold himself as a champion of free speech who created the Playboy brand to set off a sexual revolution that would liberate men and women alike, but over the years he used Playboy to manipulate women to compete for his favor and silenced whistleblowers.

This instalment was pretty well-balanced, showing both side of the Hugh Hefner story. Apparently, he was a complex man, but I was not aware of some things, like the number of suicides and rapes that occurred and him using the security cameras and hidden microphones to keep people in line (I guess we call it "revenge porn" now). This man is so lucky to have died right before the #MeToo hysteria. He would have been destroyed, like Harvey Weinstein! Not that it's a Bad Thing, but can you imagine what a media circus that would have been? 😲

 

Quote

"The Girl Next Door". In the 2000s, Hugh Hefner reinvented himself and his brand through the runaway success of the reality show "Girls Next Door," starring his girlfriends Bridget Marquardt, Kendra Wilkinson, and number one girlfriend Holly Madison. The series made mansion life seem like a fairytale, but Holly and Bridget reveal that the reality was a life full of rigid rules, gaslighting, and infighting.

I used to watch this show and snarked about how Holly made a fool of herself every week trying to get married to Hef. I remember that Hef messed with the girls' minds and how he flipped out over her cutting her hair and putting on red lipstick once, but they seemed to gloss over the sexual parts. I expected to hear more from the others girls (but NOT the "Incest twins!), but I guess they were less than willing to air their grievences on TV.
 

 

[pasdetrois]

11 hours ago, MsTree said:

My opinion (so far) is that a lot of what Holly says is sour grapes.

Agreed. She used Hef and he used her. There was nothing stopping her from walking out the door, beyond not knowing how she would make a living. I don't buy the claim that he was so overbearing they were afraid to leave. Not wanting to provide details about those orgy nights, and her lead role, isn't fooling anyone. And she's grasping at straws with the Asperger self-diagnosis - anything to justify her choices. (If she said a psychologist had diagnosed her, I missed it.)

Other people have written about what went on at the mansion. I have Hollywood friends who experienced the parties there as seedy and transactional. A lot of drunken, pawing creeps who felt entitled to being serviced by young beautiful women.

 

 

[Sweet-tea]

I think Hef having a 15 year-old girl up in his bedroom speaks volumes. I have nothing positive to say about the guy. He used women, especially young women. He wouldn’t have anything to do with a woman over 30 in most cases. He even joked about it. 

In the books the sex is described. It was really gross. I’ll spare you the details but there’s one part that says they would chant things like, “Do it to her, daddy!” when he was with one of the women and sick stuff like that. 

They all had sex with Hef, and that includes Kendra. She may not want acknowledge it, but no way did he let girlfriends live with him and not have sex with him. According to the books, there were certain nights they were “on” and others they were off. 

The number one girlfriend was first and did the most. She also got to actually sleep with Hef, whereas the others just showed up for the sex show and then left. But it was mostly a performance for Hef. None of them women enjoyed it. The only positive from what they described is it didn’t take that long. They also said he’d given them quaaludes before and he’d take Viagra. (Interestingly, the book says it was usually gay porn showing on the TV in the room.)

The women got an “allowance” for living with him and all their plastic surgery, hair appointments, nails and some clothes paid for. So in essence, they were escorts or hookers, not girlfriends. The way it’s described in the books, it was like a job for most of them. It was all to make Hef look like a stud, going around with a bevy of 20-something blondes. More like a harem really. 

IIRC, Bridget was married when she became one of the girlfriends. There was talk on the forums about it. I think it was TVOP then.  She remained married but separated for the time she was on GND. He met Kendra when she was really young, maybe 18. She was in bad shape practically living on the street, so perhaps he did save her life. 

And of course, Pamela became a star partly due to Playboy, so it makes sense that she doesn’t want to say anything negative about him. 

Holly glossed over a lot of her role in this. She went after Hef. She wanted fame and all the attention she got. She wasn’t a victim here, at least not at first. And like they said, she could’ve left whenever she wanted. He didn’t keep them prisoners. He paid their expenses, so she would’ve had to find a way to provide for herself. But she chose that road. 

The other thing she left out is she REALLY wanted to be a Playmate of the month. It was a big deal for her, and he strung her along for years saying no. Then when he finally relented, he put the other two on the cover with her and tied it into the show. So he threw Holly a few crumbs, but that wasn’t what she wanted. She wanted to be the star. Perhaps she used her number one girlfriend position to her advantage, and that alienated some of the other women. It would make sense. She makes it sound like she was the victim of a bunch of mean girls. What was her role in it? 

She also wanted to be married and have children with him, but he kept putting her off. So she is ret-conning some of what happened IMO. 

In terms of what the male friends saw.. well of course. They wouldn’t necessarily see how Hef treated the women when he was alone with them. Men can be totally different with guys than with women. His male friends not seeing anything doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. 

One thing that startled me: the butler said Hef drank 25-30 Cokes a day. And ate a bunch of candy. I think it was M&Ms. Wow! I mean, 30 regular Cokes a day? All that sugar! That’s just unbelievable. What is it, maybe 100 calories per soda? That’s a low estimate, but that would mean he got around 3500 calories a day just from soda! 

The one older ex-girlfriend, the blonde. I can’t remember her name. I don’t know what kind of surgery she had but she doesn’t look good at all. Her face looks unnatural. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Sweet-tea

[Tatum]

26 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

The women got an “allowance” for living with him and all their plastic surgery, hair appointments, nails and some clothes paid for. So in essence, they were escorts or hookers, not girlfriends.

I've only read Holly's book, but the allowance she got was a "beauty" allowance of $1,000 a week and it was meant to be used for salon appts and clothes. Hef didn't demand receipts but he did ask his staff to keep an eye on what the girls were buying and if they were getting blowouts/waxed/whatever- he did not want the girls hoarding their allowance, and if he got the vibe they were, they were either cut off or asked to leave. She said she was able to save a little each week, but it really wasn't like an income where she was free to spend or save it how she liked. Hef also said she could not accept the modeling/promotional gigs she was offered while she was living in the mansion. It's true she had no bills to pay, but she also had no way to earn her own money. The girls also did not receive any money from at least the first few seasons of GND.

[qtpye]

11 hours ago, MsTree said:

Understand your point of view, but I don't believe their relationship was as abusive as she'd like us to believe. I also understand she has/had low self-esteem, and wanted to continue pleasing Hef in hopes that things will get better. But there has to be a point where one says "enough"....and not sure it should take 7 years. 

 

44 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

Agreed. She used Hef and he used her. There was nothing stopping her from walking out the door, beyond not knowing how she would make a living. I don't buy the claim that he was so overbearing they were afraid to leave. Not wanting to provide details about those orgy nights, and her lead role, isn't fooling anyone. And she's grasping at straws with the Asperger self-diagnosis - anything to justify her choices. (If she said a psychologist had diagnosed her, I missed it.)

I think Holly is a very cool person now but it does seem like she is very disappointed in something...I don't know what.

To me, she came out as a winner.

She was able to use her GND fame to get a Vegas show, her own reality tv spin-off, book deals , and now seems to have plenty of time and money to do the things she likes. Being with Hef gave her financial freedom and opportunity that many women can only dream about.  Yes, she is divorced but so are plenty of people. That in itself is not a tragedy.

I do not know if she has been officially diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome but I do think there is a modern-day tendency to paint all socially awkward people with that brush. I think it is easier for her to say she has this than admit that she is not the most adept person with social encounters.

I think Holly strives for an ideal version of femininity and that always included being socially savvy. Hef probably did gaslight her and emotionally abuse her but I do think she really was obsessed with him at some point.

I think when Holly was younger, she was the type of girl to lose herself in the guys she dated. It seemed to be a self-esteem issue and she probably finds it a little embarrassing. 

 

[Tatum]

51 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think when Holly was younger, she was the type of girl to lose herself in the guys she dated. It seemed to be a self-esteem issue and she probably finds it a little embarrassing. 

I personally cringe when I think of things I said and did at 23. I mean, I never "dated" an 80 year perv but I did lots of things Holly would probably consider beneath her. Yeesh, am I glad I was never on TV.

 

I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive- Hef could be a jerk with predatory tendencies, and Holly could still be an adult that makes horrible decisions at times, and has a bit of a victim complex. Reading Holly's book- she's always the injured party, and she never did anything to instigate any drama ever. I mean, come on, Holly, NO ONE is that mature.

 

I think Holly has done very well for herself, but I think that's mainly the product of hard work and a lot of luck- I don't think this was a long con for her, but she jumped on opportunities and was able to parlay that into a long lasting 15 min of fame. I certainly give her credit for what she has accomplished and I have zero problem with her calling out someone who has exploited women and manipulated them for his own amusement. I do agree Holly always recalls things in a way that paints her in the most favorable light.

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I personally cringe when I think of things I said and did at 23. I mean, I never "dated" an 80 year perv but I did lots of things Holly would probably consider beneath her. Yeesh, am I glad I was never on TV.

 

I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive- Hef could be a jerk with predatory tendencies, and Holly could still be an adult that makes horrible decisions at times, and has a bit of a victim complex. Reading Holly's book- she's always the injured party, and she never did anything to instigate any drama ever. I mean, come on, Holly, NO ONE is that mature.

 

I think Holly has done very well for herself, but I think that's mainly the product of hard work and a lot of luck- I don't think this was a long con for her, but she jumped on opportunities and was able to parlay that into a long lasting 15 min of fame. I certainly give her credit for what she has accomplished and I have zero problem with her calling out someone who has exploited women and manipulated them for his own amusement. I do agree Holly always recalls things in a way that paints her in the most favorable light.

Spot on.

It is very complicated because I do not want to write off the abuse she probably suffered from a much older and more powerful man.

However, the truth is being his girlfriend allowed her to carve out a small career in the entertainment industry when many much more talented people can barely get their foot in the door.

She is a woman who voluntarily was part of a harem for many years. Holly should own her bad choices because we all have things from our younger days that are embarrassing as we get older. Chock it up to youth but don't pretend that it did not happen.

[MsTree]

12 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

In the books the sex is described. It was really gross. I’ll spare you the details but there’s one part that says they would chant things like, “Do it to her, daddy!” when he was with one of the women and sick stuff like that. 

Great post Sweet-Tea! If you can stomach it, I'd be interested in the details.  Otherwise the only gross thing I can imagine now is a shriveled up aging dick with spikey gray hairs trying to penetrate all orifices. 

12 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

but that would mean he got around 3500 calories a day just from soda! 

I thought the same thing and wonder if that's all he put in his body. Also surprised if he wasn't diabetic.

 

[RealHousewife]

I really like Holly and think she's a sweet and honest person. I absolutely believe that Hef mentally abused her. I also think because she's a beautiful woman who initially comes across as this confident go-getter, people may not realize she struggles like so many of us do. 

Where I see where some of you are coming from . . .

On 1/25/2022 at 7:54 PM, Straycat80 said:

I watched the first two episodes. Is this really ten episodes long, they have that much to talk about? Anyway, I watched GND back in the day too. Holly came across as so in love with Hef, wanting to get married, have his babies, loving the life as number one girlfriend.  Was this all an act for the show? He was letting her work for the magazine and IIRC correctly he was also paying for Bridgett’s college. 
I agree with someone above who said Hef and Holly used each other. The other playmates used the situation for their gain too. I wish this doc. had come out while Hef was alive and could have a say in some of the dark allegations. 

I do think Holly could cut viewers some slack for initially being confused and feeling sorry Hef didn't marry her and that she was no longer at the mansion. A lot fans were quite young when GND aired, and we had several seasons of I can't wait until it's just the two of us, Hef is always sweet, Puffin this and that. She went from being the most positive about Hef to the most negative. During GND it was like "How dare you suggest I'm a gold digger or just want to be a Playmate. I'm in love with Hef, don't insult my dignity." And then during Down the Rabbit Hole, "You dumbasses really thought being with Hef was good for me?!" Not quoting her exactly, just the gist of what she said in interviews. 

I was reminded of Erika Jayne from the Housewives. She also spoke of how awful Tom was and asked why she didn't just leave. I think Erika and Holly are very different in that Holly is much more kind and soft, but they do share staying with a rich old guy they say was awful to them. Holly wasn't living Erika big (who does), but she lived in a famous mansion with a 24/7 kitchen she could order food from, drove beautiful cars, had plastic surgery from the best doctors in the world, attended fun parties, met celebs, etc. So do I think she would have stayed so long without all that? Probably not. Doesn't make her a bad person, just not all naivety. One difference is Erika has been making a good Housewife salary for years, whereas Holly wasn't even initially being compensated for GND. 

I totally understand Holly wanting a sense of community for example, but at the Playboy Mansion? Most people would go to church, join a gym, take up a new hobby, etc. 

Who knows though. I also agree that so many of us have said and done stupid things in our 20s. I never had a geriatric boyfriend, but I was a mess and made a lot of dumb decisions. The only person who knows how Holly truly felt is Holly. We can all just speculate based on the shows and books. It can even be possible the lifestyle really didn't matter at a certain point, but she was too down on herself and her life to bother making any changes. Even though I didn't pick up on Holly's self-esteem issues right away, I noticed she didn't look very happy during GND. I saw a sadness in her. She said she was depressed and experienced suicidal thoughts. If she was feeling that down, I can see her being like, why even bother getting out of this? It can almost be harder to make changes when you're unhappy because the world just looks like this dark, gloomy place with no hope. I can see her being like "I thought Hef would be sweet and this would be so fun, but that didn't turn out to be true. I'd like to get out, but where would I go? And would men look at me differently for having been with Hugh Hefner? I guess I'll keep telling myself I'm lucky to be here and look for the good."

[RealHousewife]

I found this.

 

[Keywestclubkid]

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I found this.

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/crystal-hefner-hugh-hefner-nonconsensual-nude-photos-playmates-holly-madison_n_61f1b245e4b04f9a12b82053

[Sweet-tea]

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I found this.

 

RH thanks for posting this. It was interesting! 

I wonder who owns Playboy now. They are really trying to distance themselves from the HH legacy. 

I didn’t realize Holly was 42. She looks great. 

[Gharlane]

Playboy Responds To Claims Of Bestiality, Other Atrocities By Hugh Hefner Revealed In ‘Secrets of Playboy’ Docuseries

[Gharlane]

2 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/crystal-hefner-hugh-hefner-nonconsensual-nude-photos-playmates-holly-madison_n_61f1b245e4b04f9a12b82053

On the one hand, I'm glad those photos were destroyed, but on the other hand, why were they still around? 🤔

[Keywestclubkid]

15 hours ago, qtpye said:

She is a woman who voluntarily was part of a harem for many years. Holly should own her bad choices because we all have things from our younger days that are embarrassing as we get older. Chock it up to youth but don't pretend that it did not happen.

I mean this is where it gets tricky ... he didnt allow the girls to ever leave without him knowing where at what they were doing he didnt really give them money to save he pited them against each other ... this she could have left at anytime thing rings hollow .. there are tons of battered wives that started out voluntary and got trapped... 

[Gharlane]

Playboy Insiders Claim 'Things Were Done to Shut People Up' About Alleged Misconduct

[pasdetrois]

I suspect a journalist is already researching HH in order to write an unauthorized biography.

Edited January 27, 2022 by pasdetrois

[emma675]

I finally got around to watching the first two episodes. I believe the women when they say it was a toxic atmosphere, Hef was one thing in the press and another thing behind closed doors, the women were pitted against each other, women were treated as objects by the men who were guests, horrible things went on, and not a lot (if any) good came out of the situation.

I found it interesting that the majority of the men and only one woman claimed Hef was a good guy and these women were lying to get fame and money now that he's gone. The one male friend who said he never saw Hef doing anything wrong was so stupid. Of course, Hef wouldn't do anything in front of his friends to make them change their minds about him. And knowing that there were cameras in every concievable location on the grounds and in the house, I wonder how many of his friends were brought back in line with the hint of blackmail?

I go back and forth with Holly, but I tend towards believing her story to a degree (I do think she has a habit of making herself the victim in every single story). Yes, she got money, fame, plastic surgery, and a lot more from Hef, but at what price? Hearing her say she isn't neurotypical actually made a lot of things make sense for me now. On GND, I always noticed she had a hard time connecting emotionally with others, she was kind of awkward in social situations, and she wasn't warm and touchy feely like Bridget and even Kendra were with others and Hef. I guess I understand her saying that she was undiagnosed for most of her life, wanted something big, but it didn't go the way she hoped, yet she stuck with it against her better judgement for longer than she wanted to. Yes, those women had an allowance, but if they were being forced to spend it and not allowed to save it, and not allowed to have jobs outside of the mansion, how scary would it have been to leave? You have no savings, no work background, nothing to fall back on. I can see how a lot of these women felt trapped. Plus, it seems like so many of these women came from poor backgrounds or abusive situations or had a lack of formal education. Hef probably seemed like a savior at first. 

I watched a great deal of GND when it aired and while it was cute on the surface, there was always this dark current underneath. No matter how wholesome they tried to portray it, you had an idea of what was happening when the cameras were off. 

The filmmakers got me a few times. The older darker hair woman and the woman who was the manager of the Bunnies at his club seemed like they were going to be defending Hef at first, then it totally turned. Very clever, producers, you got me!

[Sasquatch]

So has any of the other bunnies( Barbie, Pamela, Jenny etc) refuted what these other women are saying or are they just keeping their mouths shut?

[Enero]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:54 PM, Straycat80 said:

 

I watched the first two episodes. Is this really ten episodes long, they have that much to talk about?

 

Yeah this. I watched the first couple of episodes and didn’t find any of it compelling enough to keep watching. In fact it wasn’t compelling at all. The only one that provided some insight into the culture of the house was Holly and Jennifer to a much lesser degree. The rest just kept repeating how the house wasn’t happy like it was presented and how horrible Hef could be but never gave any examples.

I wasn’t particularly shocked by anything said in the documentary except the reveal  about the 14/15 year old having a sexual relationship with his girlfriend and him attempting to join in that relationship. Both situations were disgusting. Moreover I could not believe a man would have his daughters essentially grow up in the Playboy mansion, considering all the adult stuff that was going on 24/7. But apparently that was Jennifer Saginor’s life. I do believe that Hef was likely emotionally abusive and controlling of the women, but I also have no doubt that many used him and the situation to launch their own careers. 

[RealHousewife]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:44 AM, Sweet-tea said:

RH thanks for posting this. It was interesting! 

I wonder who owns Playboy now. They are really trying to distance themselves from the HH legacy. 

I didn’t realize Holly was 42. She looks great. 

No problem!

I looked up a Playboy or Playmate thread on reddit and was stunned by how much the models exposed. The Playmates showed uh everything. I was shocked, but I guess now that it's no longer associated with Hef or his kids, whoever's running it decided to take things further. If what I saw is typical and not just a few pictures, Playboy can no longer really be considered the tasteful girlie mag or whatever. A lot of the Playboy photography when Hef ran the magazine really was stunning. 

Holly is still flawless.

On 1/27/2022 at 1:51 PM, emma675 said:

I found it interesting that the majority of the men and only one woman claimed Hef was a good guy and these women were lying to get fame and money now that he's gone. The one male friend who said he never saw Hef doing anything wrong was so stupid. Of course, Hef wouldn't do anything in front of his friends to make them change their minds about him. And knowing that there were cameras in every concievable location on the grounds and in the house, I wonder how many of his friends were brought back in line with the hint of blackmail?

I go back and forth with Holly, but I tend towards believing her story to a degree (I do think she has a habit of making herself the victim in every single story). Yes, she got money, fame, plastic surgery, and a lot more from Hef, but at what price? Hearing her say she isn't neurotypical actually made a lot of things make sense for me now. On GND, I always noticed she had a hard time connecting emotionally with others, she was kind of awkward in social situations, and she wasn't warm and touchy feely like Bridget and even Kendra were with others and Hef. I guess I understand her saying that she was undiagnosed for most of her life, wanted something big, but it didn't go the way she hoped, yet she stuck with it against her better judgement for longer than she wanted to. Yes, those women had an allowance, but if they were being forced to spend it and not allowed to save it, and not allowed to have jobs outside of the mansion, how scary would it have been to leave? You have no savings, no work background, nothing to fall back on. I can see how a lot of these women felt trapped. Plus, it seems like so many of these women came from poor backgrounds or abusive situations or had a lack of formal education. Hef probably seemed like a savior at first. 

I watched a great deal of GND when it aired and while it was cute on the surface, there was always this dark current underneath. No matter how wholesome they tried to portray it, you had an idea of what was happening when the cameras were off. 

The filmmakers got me a few times. The older darker hair woman and the woman who was the manager of the Bunnies at his club seemed like they were going to be defending Hef at first, then it totally turned. Very clever, producers, you got me!

A lot of us have either dated or had a relative who is all sweetness vast majority of the time with others but has a cruel side for us. I think that was probably Hef. Those who knew him as solely a friend probably saw a kind, generous, gentleman who was so fun. The girlfriends had an entirely different experience. 

I'm also curious how bad the blackmail was. The closest I can think of to Hef doing anything close to revenge porn is publishing the nude pictures of Marilyn Monroe without her consent. I always thought that was very messed up. But he did date a ton of women for decades and never once did anything to publicly humiliate them in that way. I believe Hef kept embarrassing things as ammunition, but I don't think he would have done anything if a girl simply left. 

2 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

So has any of the other bunnies( Barbie, Pamela, Jenny etc) refuted what these other women are saying or are they just keeping their mouths shut?

I haven't heard anything yet. Barbi isn't a big public figure. Do people know her outside of the Playboy world? I'd imagine Pamela and maybe Jenny will be asked about the revelations in interviews. I'm sure they only ever experienced Hef on his best behavior. They all benefited from one another. Playboy launched those women, and those women promoted Playboy a great deal. 

59 minutes ago, Enero said:

I wasn’t particularly shocked by anything said in the documentary except the reveal  about the 14/15 year old having a sexual relationship with his girlfriend and him attempting to join in that relationship. Both situations were disgusting. Moreover I could not believe a man would have his daughters essentially grow up in the Playboy mansion, considering all the adult stuff that was going on 24/7. But apparently that was Jennifer Saginor’s life. I do believe that Hef was likely emotionally abusive and controlling of the women, but I also have no doubt that many used him and the situation to launch their own careers. 

Yes! Maybe as a GND fan I already heard a lot, but that did shock me. Hef being with women young enough to be his grand daughters and some still in heir teens was gross enough. But a minor he'd watch grow up?! Jennifer's father was crazy to have this poor young girl grow up in the Playboy Mansion. 

And I agree. It sounds like Hef was a piece of work (to put it mildly), but do I think a lot of these women were eager to become girlfriends, see what they could get out of him, and could have left anytime without a single thing happening to them? Yes. That's just my impression though. I obviously wasn't there. We've all just heard so much about how this girl needed a place to stay, that girl wanted to be a Playmate, that one wanted to be famous, they fought over who'd get a better room or car, etc. Hef wasn't someone who tried hard to lure them in to the mansion and then held a gun to their heads to stay. 

I have empathy for all these women who felt abused or traumatized by the experience, but the only one who didn't see Hef as a means to an end and was hurt was Jennifer. That child should have been protected. 

[princelina]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:47 PM, Sweet-tea said:

The number one girlfriend was first and did the most. She also got to actually sleep with Hef, whereas the others just showed up for the sex show and then left. But it was mostly a performance for Hef. None of them women enjoyed it. The only positive from what they described is it didn’t take that long. They also said he’d given them quaaludes before and he’d take Viagra. (Interestingly, the book says it was usually gay porn showing on the TV in the room.)

One thing that startled me: the butler said Hef drank 25-30 Cokes a day. And ate a bunch of candy. I think it was M&Ms. Wow! I mean, 30 regular Cokes a day? All that sugar! That’s just unbelievable. What is it, maybe 100 calories per soda? That’s a low estimate, but that would mean he got around 3500 calories a day just from soda! 

That was in his youth - as an old man on GND the thing I remember most about his food intake was his hard boiled eggs and fried chicken!  When he took the "girlfriends" out to dinner or a club his fried chicken and hard boiled eggs were delivered to the kitchen to serve him when they ate.

On 1/27/2022 at 3:32 AM, MsTree said:

Great post Sweet-Tea! If you can stomach it, I'd be interested in the details.  Otherwise the only gross thing I can imagine now is a shriveled up aging dick with spikey gray hairs trying to penetrate all orifices. 

I can stomach it - and I'll start by agreeing with @Sweet-tea that it was a performance for Hef - and also, it seemed to me, a performance by Hef.  They had "going out" nights 2 nights a week where they went to clubs and he showed off with his "girlfriends" and ate his fried chicken; he was still giving out quaaludes in the 21st century, and when they got back to the house those nights were sex nights.  The girls had to bathe first - they had some kind of big bathing pool where they did it together, so any new girls could get comfortable with the gang, and then went to his bedroom naked.  (If a girl wore underpants it meant she was having her period and therefore not having sex with him that night.). Then they all had to make out/simulate sex with each other (head girlfriend responsible for strewing sex toys around the place) while (gay?) porn played in the the background.  He just lay there and each girl had to ride him for a minute or two; head girl wiped him down between rides and got the finale in the wrong orifice, IYKWIM.  Very ritualistic and performative, and to me it sounded like the only thing he enjoyed about it was being powerful enough to make beautiful women behave like this at his command.

On 1/27/2022 at 2:51 PM, emma675 said:

it seems like so many of these women came from poor backgrounds or abusive situations or had a lack of formal education. Hef probably seemed like a savior at first. 

I watched a great deal of GND when it aired and while it was cute on the surface, there was always this dark current underneath. No matter how wholesome they tried to portray it, you had an idea of what was happening when the cameras were off. 

I think he liked to think of himself as a savior too.  But there were strings attached.

I never knew anything beyond the fact that Playboy had pictures of naked ladies until I started watching GND, and then he just seemed like kind of a creepy and sad old man, doddering around his mansion in his pajamas, working endlessly on his scrapbooks, unable to get over his heyday which did seem rather impressive.  But I found it ludicrous when he talked about his "girlfriends" that we were supposed to believe there was some kind of "relationship" going on!  And when Holly and Kendra told their stories they both said they met him and almost right away "He asked me to be a girlfriend" as if he was offering them a job.  It just seemed like he was rich and powerful enough to live totally in his past, and kind of pathetic if harmless enough.  Reading the books of girlfriends past was a real eye-opener for me!

[MsTree]

3 hours ago, princelina said:

They had "going out" nights 2 nights a week where they went to clubs and he showed off with his "girlfriends" and ate his fried chicken; he was still giving out quaaludes in the 21st century, and when they got back to the house those nights were sex nights.  The girls had to bathe first - they had some kind of big bathing pool where they did it together, so any new girls could get comfortable with the gang, and then went to his bedroom naked.  (If a girl wore underpants it meant she was having her period and therefore not having sex with him that night.). Then they all had to make out/simulate sex with each other (head girlfriend responsible for strewing sex toys around the place) while (gay?) porn played in the the background.  He just lay there and each girl had to ride him for a minute or two; head girl wiped him down between rides and got the finale in the wrong orifice, IYKWIM.  Very ritualistic and performative, and to me it sounded like the only thing he enjoyed about it was being powerful enough to make beautiful women behave like this at his command.

That's pretty much what I envisioned, and appreciate the confirmation 😉

4 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I'd imagine Pamela and maybe Jenny will be asked about the revelations in interviews. I'm sure they only ever experienced Hef on his best behavior. They all benefited from one another. Playboy launched those women, and those women promoted Playboy a great deal. 

That, and if he did manage to deceive his girlfriends for his personal enjoyment, Jenny & Pam are definitely not women to be manipulated.

[1011101010001]

Well Hef has one apologist.

https://www.chicagonow.com/candid-candace/2022/01/sorry-ae-secrets-of-playboy-this-is-not-my-hugh-hefner/

[princelina]

13 hours ago, MrBuhBye said:

Well Hef has one apologist.

https://www.chicagonow.com/candid-candace/2022/01/sorry-ae-secrets-of-playboy-this-is-not-my-hugh-hefner/

Two things can be true at once.  With all of the women he had in and out of his life I'm sure plenty of them felt well-treated.  I remember on GND they'd have playmate weekends where different girls would show up, live for a week or two in the house next door to the mansion that he kept, be invited to parties and pose for their pictures.  Most of them probably had a great time.  And if he had playboy clubs in cities all over the country a lot of them were probably just working as bunny-waitresses and enjoying it like this lady did.  And doing "appearances" - he always acted charming in public.

[Cinnabon]

On 1/28/2022 at 11:25 PM, RealHousewife said:

No problem!

I looked up a Playboy or Playmate thread on reddit and was stunned by how much the models exposed. The Playmates showed uh everything. I was shocked, but I guess now that it's no longer associated with Hef or his kids, whoever's running it decided to take things further. If what I saw is typical and not just a few pictures, Playboy can no longer really be considered the tasteful girlie mag or whatever. A lot of the Playboy photography when Hef ran the magazine really was stunning. 

Holly is still flawless.

A lot of us have either dated or had a relative who is all sweetness vast majority of the time with others but has a cruel side for us. I think that was probably Hef. Those who knew him as solely a friend probably saw a kind, generous, gentleman who was so fun. The girlfriends had an entirely different experience. 

I'm also curious how bad the blackmail was. The closest I can think of to Hef doing anything close to revenge porn is publishing the nude pictures of Marilyn Monroe without her consent. I always thought that was very messed up. But he did date a ton of women for decades and never once did anything to publicly humiliate them in that way. I believe Hef kept embarrassing things as ammunition, but I don't think he would have done anything if a girl simply left. 

I haven't heard anything yet. Barbi isn't a big public figure. Do people know her outside of the Playboy world? I'd imagine Pamela and maybe Jenny will be asked about the revelations in interviews. I'm sure they only ever experienced Hef on his best behavior. They all benefited from one another. Playboy launched those women, and those women promoted Playboy a great deal. 

Yes! Maybe as a GND fan I already heard a lot, but that did shock me. Hef being with women young enough to be his grand daughters and some still in heir teens was gross enough. But a minor he'd watch grow up?! Jennifer's father was crazy to have this poor young girl grow up in the Playboy Mansion. 

And I agree. It sounds like Hef was a piece of work (to put it mildly), but do I think a lot of these women were eager to become girlfriends, see what they could get out of him, and could have left anytime without a single thing happening to them? Yes. That's just my impression though. I obviously wasn't there. We've all just heard so much about how this girl needed a place to stay, that girl wanted to be a Playmate, that one wanted to be famous, they fought over who'd get a better room or car, etc. Hef wasn't someone who tried hard to lure them in to the mansion and then held a gun to their heads to stay. 

I have empathy for all these women who felt abused or traumatized by the experience, but the only one who didn't see Hef as a means to an end and was hurt was Jennifer. That child should have been protected. 

You should read Jennifer’s book. It’s a wild ride.

[Tatum]

22 hours ago, MrBuhBye said:

Well Hef has one apologist.

https://www.chicagonow.com/candid-candace/2022/01/sorry-ae-secrets-of-playboy-this-is-not-my-hugh-hefner/

Quote

After he refused to marry her, she left and wrote “Down the Rabbit Hole: Curious Adventures and Cautionary Tales of a Former Playboy Bunny,” about the “shocking, never-before-told story of the bizarre world inside the legendary Playboy Mansion.” It seems to me that things became “awful” for her only after she didn’t get what she wanted. Oh, and one more thing, she was NEVER a Bunny (nor a Playmate). How did that get in the title?

Wow, stay classy, Candace. You know what this world needs more of? People excusing powerful men for exploiting women, and victim blamers.

 

Unless I missed it, Holly never said she was kept captive in that mansion. I don't think she's ever tried to claim it was physically impossible for her to leave. She can still be a victim- it doesn't mean she's a helpless victim with no recourse.

 

If Candace has nothing but affection and fond memories of Hef, she is certainly free to share her own experience, but she can keep her speculation about how other people feel about him to herself. It's people like Candace that make it so easy for men to mistreat women. Also like her "burn" about Holly not being a playmate or a bunny. As if show titles never include misnomers.

[RealHousewife]

4 hours ago, Tatum said:

Unless I missed it, Holly never said she was kept captive in that mansion. I don't think she's ever tried to claim it was physically impossible for her to leave. She can still be a victim- it doesn't mean she's a helpless victim with no recourse.

If Candace has nothing but affection and fond memories of Hef, she is certainly free to share her own experience, but she can keep her speculation about how other people feel about him to herself. It's people like Candace that make it so easy for men to mistreat women. Also like her "burn" about Holly not being a playmate or a bunny. As if show titles never include misnomers.

True. Think of situations where a husband spends a fortune on his wife and kids but is still a monster. Or parents who put their children through college but abused them. Someone could spoil you but destroy your self-esteem at the same time. Hef could have led Holly down a path of fame and fortune and still have been horrible to her. 

Outside of people interested in the Playboy world, wouldn't most just use those terms interchangeably for anyone who's done Playboy? I never knew the differences until I watched GND. Ultimately, Holly is Playmate beautiful and did model for Playboy. 

[Tatum]

45 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

 

Outside of people interested in the Playboy world, wouldn't most just use those terms interchangeably for anyone who's done Playboy? I never knew the differences until I watched GND. Ultimately, Holly is Playmate beautiful and did model for Playboy. 

Exactly. I am sure Holly didn't even come up with the title, and I doubt she was trying to "slip something past" the readers.

 

However, those that have been Playmates seem to be fiercely protective of their titles, and quick to point out that those that have been Web girls, or part of the college searches, or were in group spreads are NOT playmates. I guess in the Playboy hierarchy there is a difference, but no one outside of that world is going to consider it a dis that a woman "only" achieved Web girl status and not Playmate status. Case in point, what Holly's book title is isn't that relevant to the topic but Candace still had to throw that in there. But whatever you want to hang your hat on, Candace.

 

There seems to be a ton of verifiable evidence that Hef treated some of the women poorly. The fact that the women chose to put up with it, and maybe wouldn't have if Hef like, worked at Payless, does not make it okay.
 

 

 

[RealHousewife]

Just now, Tatum said:

Exactly. I am sure Holly didn't even come up with the title, and I doubt she was trying to "slip something past" the readers.

 

However, those that have been Playmates seem to be fiercely protective of their titles, and quick to point out that those that have been Web girls, or part of the college searches, or were in group spreads are NOT playmates. I guess in the Playboy hierarchy there is a difference, but no one outside of that world is going to consider it a dis that a woman "only" achieved Web girl status and not Playmate status. Case in point, what Holly's book title is isn't that relevant to the topic but Candace still had to throw that in there. But whatever you want to hang your hat on, Candace.

 

There seems to be a ton of verifiable evidence that Hef treated some of the women poorly. The fact that the women chose to put up with it, and maybe wouldn't have if Hef like, worked at Payless, does not make it okay.
 

Oh 100%! Look, I think we all agree Holly wouldn't have been with someone that old if he lived in a one-bedroom apartment living on a modest retirement. I don't think even the biggest Holly fans think oh she just had genuine attraction to this elderly man for his personality. Where mileage varies is what Holly has a right to say. I am of the opinion that whether the women benefitted from being with Hef in some ways, Holly has a right to share her story. It sounds like she was very traumatized, and it's probably cathartic for her to share what she went through and saw. I think Holly is a kindhearted good person; I wouldn't say the same about Hef. I'm sure he was very intelligent, ahead of his time in many regards, a hard worker, could be incredibly charming and a good friend. And I think he was also misogynistic, could be cruel, and not someone I'd want my loved one with no matter how rich or well-connected he was. 

Also, even though Holly admits the lifestyle was part of the appeal and her father said she wanted to marry rich, I think she's misunderstood there too. Holly is a hard worker, doesn't accept alimony, and doesn't seem to only date men with a lot of money. Whether she's changed or was never the kind of person she came across on GND, I think she's very misunderstood by people who only remember her as the chick who desperately wanted to marry and have babies with Hugh Hefner. If all she wanted in life was money and to not work, she's a gorgeous woman and could have made it happen. And yes YouTubing, writing books, all of that takes time and energy. 

[Tatum]

9 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

Where mileage varies is what Holly has a right to say. I am of the opinion that whether the women benefitted from being with Hef in some ways, Holly has a right to share her story

I agree. If Hef said, sure, Holly, you can live here for free, but in exchange, I am going to say what you wear, how you style your hair, who you are allowed to talk to, what jobs you're allowed to take (spoiler alert: none), and in addition, you are required to perform sexually on command, take heaps of verbal abuse from the other women living here, and deal with me calling you ugly and cheap whenever the mood strikes me, and if you don't like it, there's the door...sure, people can judge Holly for not saying, fuck this, but that doesn't mean Hef isn't a jerk for wanting to put someone in this position. The fact that women are in such bad financial straits or so desperate for validation that they will put up with this doesn't mean it's totally moral on Hef's side, because, hey, they could have said no.

 

And I doubt the terms of living in the house were expressed that explicitly anyways. And people tend to follow the sunk costs logic- Holly probably already felt that she had left her pride at the door during the first sex night, and it was a more attractive option to learn how to navigate this world rather than wind up homeless in LA with the few hundred bucks in her pocket she managed to scrape together, or return home to live with her parents, broke and demoralized.

[MsTree]

17 hours ago, Tatum said:

Wow, stay classy, Candace. You know what this world needs more of? People excusing powerful men for exploiting women, and victim blamers.

Unless I missed it, Holly never said she was kept captive in that mansion. I don't think she's ever tried to claim it was physically impossible for her to leave. She can still be a victim- it doesn't mean she's a helpless victim with no recourse.

If Candace has nothing but affection and fond memories of Hef, she is certainly free to share her own experience, but she can keep her speculation about how other people feel about him to herself. It's people like Candace that make it so easy for men to mistreat women. Also like her "burn" about Holly not being a playmate or a bunny. As if show titles never include misnomers.

I don't see Candace as victim blaming because I don't see Holly as a victim. Everyone's definition and/or experience is subjective. And the way things went down between Hef & Holly is exactly how many people saw it. IOW, do you think if Holly became Mrs. Hefner...do you really believe she would have exposed herself as a victim?!? Somehow, I seriously doubt it.

[Tatum]

3 hours ago, MsTree said:

I don't see Candace as victim blaming because I don't see Holly as a victim.

I'm bothered by her comment, if things were truly this bad, why did she stay? I realize she was talking about Holly specifically, but that's a pretty insensitive comment to make. Lots of women worse off than Holly stay in toxic relationships, for a myriad of reasons.

3 hours ago, MsTree said:

IOW, do you think if Holly became Mrs. Hefner...do you really believe she would have exposed herself as a victim?!? Somehow, I seriously doubt it.

I don't think it matters, honestly. Unless Holly is making up everything in her book, Hef's behavior checks a number of boxes of emotional abuse- he was controlling, manipulative, he isolated her and wouldn't allow her to work while she lived in the house, and he put her down and seemed to enjoy and encourage the other women bullying her. If it happened, then it happened, whether or not Holly had incentive to keep it quiet or not. Her theoretically deciding that putting up with the abuse in silence was worth it because she got what she wanted doesn't erase the abuse from happening, and it doesn't preclude her from talking about it now.

[1011101010001]

There is quite a bit of talk about Hef and Playboy in the first episode of the new Cosby documentary on Showtime.

[RealHousewife]

Two things can also be true at once imo. Maybe some people have a harder time seeing Holly as the victim because she put herself into the situation and enjoyed the benefits of being with a rich and famous man. I personally think you can still be a victim even if you thought being with Hef could lead to a life of celebrity and money. I could see someone as young as Holly was when she first moved in being enamored with this iconic man and his charming demeanor and just see the girls looking happy and having fun like in a sorority at first. Then Holly spends some quality time there and is like, what the fuck did I get myself into?!

One thing I've noticed is Holly doesn't speak a whole lot about her family. It sounds like they're decent people, but maybe they weren't the type to love having kids 18 & up still being at home, IDK. Cause of course most of us would think, why wouldn't Holly just go back home? Most parents would rather their adult children live with them than be at the Playboy Mansion. (I know I would if I had kids.) Maybe Holly couldn't go back and doesn't want to throw her family under the bus? 

My parents have done so much for me, but they really dropped the ball in different ways. I don't go around badmouthing them, but it would feel toxic for me if I kept everything messed up about my childhood a secret from everyone in my life. Or had to pretend I never experienced trauma because they paid for college or whatever. I obviously haven't written a book or talked about my life on TV, but confided in a therapist and a few friends? Yes. Some might say that could be biting the hand that fed you, but relationships of all kinds are complicated. 

Another example I could think of is working for any old supervisor of mine. I'd heard good things about him and applied for a job with him at the old place I worked. I ended up getting the job working for him and also got a promotion thanks to him. I was grateful for both opportunities. But he had a pretty mean side to him. I tried to tell myself, well we all have bad days. Maybe he didn't realize his tone, things like that. I was young, and he was well-liked, or so I thought. At a certain point, I'd had enough. I tried to see the good in him because he could be very friendly and likable, but he just wasn't the kind guy I thought he was. The people who had spoken highly of him had also either changed their tune or had an entirely different relationship with him and never saw how mean he could be. If you had a title around his and were around his age, he tended to be easier to get along with. People would either try to find new jobs or stay if they felt they didn't qualify for many other things or were older and didn't want to start over. When you think you're stuck, you try to make the best of it. I can see Holly doing that with Hef. I know it's a very different situation, but I feel like more of us can relate to Holly than we might think. 

I don't think those of us who see Holly as a victim think her relationship with him was the most abusive of all time, that she made all the right decisions, or that she went into it with pure naivety. But a young girl who got in over her head and had her mind fucked with for years? Yes, I absolutely believe it, and it was messed up. I can also see her side of wanting to share her story because she got sick of the incorrect portrayal of her life at the mansion. Everyone just saw the cute GND and Holly wanting to be there. Holly finally being like "Ugh, it wasn't all fun and games, and Hef treated me like shit" makes sense. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by RealHousewife

[Lone Wolf]

On 1/26/2022 at 11:47 AM, Sweet-tea said:

The one older ex-girlfriend, the blonde. I can’t remember her name. I don’t know what kind of surgery she had but she doesn’t look good at all. Her face looks unnatural. 

Sondra Theodore.  Definitely too much and/or bad plastic surgery.  She even lisps when she speaks.  I was mildly shocked that she's only 65, compared to Barbi Benton (another main girlfriend who apparently has declined to participate in this series), who's 72:

   

On 1/28/2022 at 8:25 PM, RealHousewife said:

On 1/28/2022 at 8:25 PM, RealHousewife said:

I'm also curious how bad the blackmail was. The closest I can think of to Hef doing anything close to revenge porn is publishing the nude pictures of Marilyn Monroe without her consent. I always thought that was very messed up.

I have empathy for all these women who felt abused or traumatized by the experience, but the only one who didn't see Hef as a means to an end and was hurt was Jennifer. That child should have been protected. 

 

Marilyn didn't own those pictures, so he didn't need her consent - IIRC, Hefner bought them from the photographer or whoever did own them, but MM signed away her rights years earlier when they were taken.  Another fun fact: Mr. Romance bought the crypt next to hers so that they could spend eternity side by side - allegedly he recognized that her centerfold was the main reason the magazine survived initially and was (in his own weird way) grateful to her.  

As for Jennifer, I blame her father.  Hefner's gonna Hef - the guy's life and business revolved around sex and everything that suggests, and he made no secret about it. Quite the opposite, in fact.  But her father lived in the mansion with her the entire time.  He should have been a father instead of Hefner's buddy - he should have known what she was doing, enforced boundaries, and as you said, generally protected her. And not for nothin', but what was she doing there in the first place - did I miss the explanation of that (obviously I haven't read her book)?

To be clear, I'm no fan of Hefner but I don't think he was a predator like Cosby, Epstein, and Weinstein.  I think he was selfish and manipulative, but he was not without redeeming qualities.  I don't think he was as evil as he's being portrayed.   

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Lone Wolf

[1011101010001]

Wasn’t there a playmate who wrote a book that was published only in the UK and who painted a picture of a very run-down mansion with dog shit everywhere on the carpets?  Maybe that is why the purchaser of the property decided to do a tear-down (although I think the official story was that the mansion was small by modern standards).

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, MrBuhBye said:

Wasn’t there a playmate who wrote a book that was published only in the UK and who painted a picture of a very run-down mansion with dog shit everywhere on the carpets?  Maybe that is why the purchaser of the property decided to do a tear-down (although I think the official story was that the mansion was small by modern standards).

I’ve read a few of their books and I feel like that was mentioned in more than one of them. Yes, apparently it was very run down and filthy.

regarding Holly - I’ve also stayed much too long in several relationships and at quite a few jobs. I look back now and wonder why I didn’t get the hell out, but sometimes you unfortunately get too accustomed to being miserable. When you’re beaten down, change seems impossible. 

[princelina]

3 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

As for Jennifer, I blame her father.  Hefner's gonna Hef - the guy's life and business revolved around sex and everything that suggests, and he made no secret about it. Quite the opposite, in fact.  But her father lived in the mansion with her the entire time.  He should have been a father instead of Hefner's buddy - he should have known what she was doing, enforced boundaries, and as you said, generally protected her. And not for nothin', but what was she doing there in the first place - did I miss the explanation of that (obviously I haven't read her book)?

To be clear, I'm no fan of Hefner but I don't think he was a predator like Cosby, Epstein, and Weinstein.  I think he was selfish and manipulative, but he was not without redeeming qualities.  I don't think he was as evil as he's being portrayed.   

Totally agree about Jennifer's father - he's the dad and his kids were his responsibility.  I don't know much about Epstein and Weinstein, but Cosby had redeeming qualities too.  They were all predators with their own styles and MOs, and I include Hef in that.  They were all self-centered misogynists - and I include the doctor dad in that.  And maybe he was a predator as well.  

[1011101010001]

Was Jennifer’s mother deceased or an addict?  Back then mothers almost always got custody and even if she didn’t you would think she would object to the child living at the mansion.  I assume the doctor had his own house as well?