S01.E05: The Fangs Of Freedom

[tessaray]

Release Date: January 16, 2022

Shea and Thomas cope with the aftermath of the river crossing, but there is little time to grieve and no shortage of challenges ahead. Elsa and Ennis share a romantic moment.

[NeenerNeener]

So the "sex" talk between Mom and Elsa doesn't mention pregnancy at all? This was obviously written by a man.

ETA: the idea of pregnancy finally comes up after the damage is done. 

Hey, the IMDB has that actor in all 10 episodes, so that death is a surprise.

Edited January 16, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[wlk68]

Sam Elliott is absolutely killing it in this series. If he isn't nominated for an Emmy, then there is no justice in this world. 

Damn you, Ennis (and Elsa), for making me cry. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by wlk68

[joliefaire]

7 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

So the "sex" talk between Mom and Elsa doesn't mention pregnancy at all? This was obviously written by a man.

Actually, the very first part of that talk was about pregnancy--Elsa asked what comes after kissing and Margaret told her she'd seen enough farm animals to understand where babies come from.

Excellent episode, but one thing I didn't quite understand--why did Josef and his wife stay behind with their wagon when the rest of the wagon train left?  Was that deliberate, him offering to stay behind as bait for the bandits?

[NeenerNeener]

42 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

Elsa asked what comes after kissing and Margaret told her she'd seen enough farm animals to understand where babies come from.

I missed that part, then, thanks. 

I thought Josef and his wife stayed behind as bait. She was cooking and Josef was hiding in the wagon with the gun so pretty much all the bandits saw was her stirring the stew.

[MzLiz]

My Goodness. Hmm..

I really hope Elsa doesn’t end up pregnant. 

Her killing that bandit didn’t surprise me, though really he wouldn’t have been alive for her to shoot. One of the guys would have finished him off like the others. 
 

Darn that we have to wait 2 weeks for the next episode. Though paramount plus needs to make sure they get as many months of fees as they can before we all cut it off until next season. LOL. 
 

a really good show. I’m enjoying it. 

[ShortyMac]

Aw, Ennis. So sad. I knew when he rode off without Elsa, that he was a goner. 

Sam Elliot is so good. 

Faith Hill is impressing me. She’s doing better than I thought she would. 

[LadyIrony]

If Elsa falls pregnant I wonder if there will be a shotgun wedding. I am having trouble accepting that her parents, especially father would be so at ease with allowing her that much freedom with men given the time period. That seems a very modern insert on things to me just like Elsa being a Cowgirl. It would not have gone down well and she would have been branded all sorts of lovely names and it would reflect on her parents. 

I still like the show but it would have been better if they weren't making allowances for modern tastes and sensibilities.

[tomsmom]

I’m guessing the younger boy in the 1893 flash forward is Elsa’s son because I just don’t see Margaret having another baby. 

[LeDucDiableBleu]

8 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

If Elsa falls pregnant I wonder if there will be a shotgun wedding. I am having trouble accepting that her parents, especially father would be so at ease with allowing her that much freedom with men given the time period. That seems a very modern insert on things to me just like Elsa being a Cowgirl. It would not have gone down well and she would have been branded all sorts of lovely names and it would reflect on her parents. 

I still like the show but it would have been better if they weren't making allowances for modern tastes and sensibilities.

 

A shotgun wedding with who?

[Sunnykm]

omg   I am soooo sad

[rhygirl720]

Sheridan, thank you for that episode. Glad to see you can still write.

I cried, that hasn't happened in a long time.

Faith hill is phenomenal.

[blackwing]

20 hours ago, tomsmom said:

I’m guessing the younger boy in the 1893 flash forward is Elsa’s son because I just don’t see Margaret having another baby. 

Ah, this is a very good possibility.  I know that Tim and Faith are both in their early or mid 50s, but I've been trying to figure out how old the characters are on this show.  They have an 18 year old daughter and I think people had kids earlier back then, but surely the show can't be passing them off as 40, they look older than that.  Maybe they are 45?  I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Spencer in the "Yellowstone" appearance is Margaret's child.

But I could easily see that he could end up being Elsa's child.  Her lover dies, she has the baby but they raise the baby as James and Margaret's child to avoid scandal.

I think we have been assuming all along that Kevin Costner John is the grandson of the John in this show.  I am now wondering if he is descended from Spencer.  And If Spencer is Elsa's child, that would make Elsa to be Beth's great-great-grandmother (I think I have the number of greats correct).  I definitely saw a Beth streak in Elsa when Elsa pulled out her revolver and shot Ennis' killer multiple times.

Edited January 17, 2022 by blackwing

[LadyIrony]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Ah, this is a very good possibility.  I know that Tim and Faith are both in their early or mid 50s, but I've been trying to figure out how old the characters are on this show.  They have an 18 year old daughter and I think people had kids earlier back then, but surely the show can't be passing them off as 40, they look older than that.  Maybe they are 45?  I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Spencer in the "Yellowstone" appearance is Margaret's child.

But I could easily see that he could end up being Elsa's child.  Her lover dies, she has the baby but they raise the baby as James and Margaret's child to avoid scandal.

I think we have been assuming all along that Kevin Costner John is the son of the John in this show.  I am now wondering if he is descended from Spencer.  And If Spencer is Elsa's child, that would make Elsa to be Beth's great-great-grandmother (I think I have the number of greats correct).  I definitely saw a Beth streak in Elsa when Elsa pulled out her revolver and shot Ennis' killer multiple times.

This happens in Yellowstone as well, Beth is supposed to be mid 30s but the actress is and looks mid 40's. Costner's Dutton is supposed to be in his 50s but looks much older.

I read Elsa is meant to be 17. People did.marry and have kids earlier back then. People back then also looked older than they were so I guess it balances out. Even if you look at films from the 40s and 50s the actors look than their real ages, by current standards anyway.

I can see them raising Elsa's child as their own. That would be common for the time. Elsa seems more rational than Beth but it's a good possibility.

Edited January 17, 2022 by LadyIrony

[Crashcourse]

27 minutes ago, LadyIrony said:

Costner's Dutton is supposed to be in his 50s but looks much older.

On Yellowstone, the protester Summer said he was in his 50s and he laughed, thanking her for the compliment because he was older than that.

[LadyIrony]

33 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

On Yellowstone, the protester Summer said he was in his 50s and he laughed, thanking her for the compliment because he was older than that.

He’s about 60 but still looks much older. 

[wlk68]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

Ah, this is a very good possibility.  I know that Tim and Faith are both in their early or mid 50s, but I've been trying to figure out how old the characters are on this show.  They have an 18 year old daughter and I think people had kids earlier back then, but surely the show can't be passing them off as 40, they look older than that.  Maybe they are 45?  I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Spencer in the "Yellowstone" appearance is Margaret's child.

But I could easily see that he could end up being Elsa's child.  Her lover dies, she has the baby but they raise the baby as James and Margaret's child to avoid scandal.

I think we have been assuming all along that Kevin Costner John is the son of the John in this show.  I am now wondering if he is descended from Spencer.  And If Spencer is Elsa's child, that would make Elsa to be Beth's great-great-grandmother (I think I have the number of greats correct).  I definitely saw a Beth streak in Elsa when Elsa pulled out her revolver and shot Ennis' killer multiple times.

I've been thinking this from the first episode of the show. I couldn't figure out why they were focusing so much on Elsa (having her narrate, etc) when it appeared to me that the modern day Duttons were descended from her little brother. After all, they still carried the Dutton name and the only way that would normally happen is through the male line marrying and the bride taking the husband's name. Now it all makes much more sense.  

[Artsda]

Ennis. :( That was a sad and well done ending. Sad to see him die.

[Sunnykm]

Rewatched the episode up to the prairie sex...Margaret basically gave Elsa permission to do what she wants while they are on the trail.  She says it is the most freedom Elsa will ever have.  No judgements, no whispering, no rules.  And then she is surprised when she finds them under the stars??

[TOL]

11 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

He’s about 60 but still looks much older. 

He actually stated his character age as 64 in the episode where he and the Gov called off their couch sex. 
 

I loved this episode. It had everything, including strong performances.  The doomed Elsa/Ennis pre-death sex will almost certainly end in pregnancy.  I got a distinct Cold Mountain drop-the-pretense-and-just-do it vibe from that whole situation.  Extreme danger will do that to you

[Haleth]

Well of course Ennis died. As soon as characters are happy and start making plans for the future you know one of them isn’t going to make it. And I’m calling it now that their baby (because of course she’s pregnant after having sex once) is the direct ancestor of the present day Duttons. That second little boy in the Yellowstone flashback?  This kid.  Especially if the first episode’s scene of Elsa getting shot is real and not a dream. 

On 1/16/2022 at 7:00 PM, tomsmom said:

I’m guessing the younger boy in the 1893 flash forward is Elsa’s son because I just don’t see Margaret having another baby. 

Yup. 

I watched knowing there was going to be a death and I was more afraid it was going to be Shea or Thomas.

Tim and Faith are fantastic. I’m really invested in their characters. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Haleth

[mojoween]

I cried at James crying watching Elsa cry.

I mentioned to the hubs that Elsa’s reaction was like a toddler’s when they get hurt…at first there is no sound, then when they realize they are hurt the bawling starts.

I feel sad for Ennis’s friend.  Also Joseff because Lisa may never forgive him.

I still can’t figure out why Elsa stopped wearing her hair up as soon as she started wearing pants.

Speaking of pantalones, the episode started out sad watching the seamstress cry over her husband’s grave.

I appreciate the authenticity of Isabel’s unshaven underarms, but when she and Faith were having the conversation on the horses before the river bath, their blindingly white teeth were very distracting.

Edited January 19, 2022 by mojoween

[mythoughtis]

So. She has sex, and then gets on a horse a couple hours later and doesn’t flinch at all. Let’s  just add that to the ridiculousness of this particular plot line in 1883.  
 

but I felt for Elsa at the end.  I liked Ennis

Edited January 20, 2022 by mythoughtis

[rhygirl720]

21 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

So. She has sex, and then gets on a horse a couple hours later and doesn’t flinch at all. Let’s  just add that to the ridiculousness of this particular plot line in 1883.  
 

but I felt for Elsa at the end.  I liked Ennis

people have sex and ride horses quite frequently. Not unbelievable at all

[mythoughtis]

22 minutes ago, rhygirl720 said:

people have sex and ride horses quite frequently. Not unbelievable at all

She was a virgin, and had sex outside on the ground.  A little soreness is expected.  This is the same teenager who bought pants because she  was sore   from wearing her dress while riding 

Edited January 20, 2022 by mythoughtis

[rhygirl720]

47 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

She was a virgin, and had sex outside on the ground.  A little soreness is expected.  This is the same teenager who bought pants because she  was sore   from wearing her dress while riding 

true...but my perspective is they were all in a life and death situation and a little soreness isn't really going to get in the way. She had a job to do.

Even when she was sore and wanted pants it's not like anyone would have known without her saying so. 

[LadyIrony]

On 1/19/2022 at 9:52 AM, mojoween said:

I cried at James crying watching Elsa cry.

I mentioned to the hubs that Elsa’s reaction was like a toddler’s when they get hurt…at first there is no sound, then when they realize they are hurt the bawling starts.

I feel sad for Ennis’s friend.  Also Joseff because Lisa may never forgive him.

I still can’t figure out why Elsa stopped wearing her hair up as soon as she started wearing pants.

Speaking of pantalones, the episode started out sad watching the seamstress cry over her husband’s grave.

I appreciate the authenticity of Isabel’s unshaven underarms, but when she and Faith were having the conversation on the horses before the river bath, their blindingly white teeth were very distracting.

Compensation for having to wear trousers? I would imagine that if anyone was watching from a distance that they might be less inclined to shoot if she appears more female. Although it didn't stop those bandits killing all the women in that wagon that was left behind.

On 1/18/2022 at 5:22 PM, Sunnykm said:

Rewatched the episode up to the prairie sex...Margaret basically gave Elsa permission to do what she wants while they are on the trail.  She says it is the most freedom Elsa will ever have.  No judgements, no whispering, no rules.  And then she is surprised when she finds them under the stars??

Her father also did the same. Told her in a previous ep that he can't treat her like a kid one second then expect her to be an adult the next. They both basically gave her free will. Maybe her mother thought she would at least be more discrete about it?

On 1/18/2022 at 4:52 PM, Artsda said:

Ennis. :( That was a sad and well done ending. Sad to see him die.

I was starting to like the guy. I can't help but wonder if he was feeling a little macho and indestructible as the way he just charged at that guy was like a Knight jousting. It wasn't the best tactic. A very romantic kind of death though.

[lucindabelle]

Dammit. As soon as he said he’d never killed anyone I told mom, he is not making it out of this episode alive.

and he was such an interesting character- tough but sweet, not hard at all, and so goofy about her. I was INTERESTED because he was not like other characters I’d seen before. Some of that was the actor but not all- he was almost bashful. Adorbs really. I loved it when he said about her running his ragged that it already looked to be that way. And that he said he didn’t think he’d be so lucky to have a child. He did look a bit taken aback at the word “married” but obviously he was going to marry her. 

 

so I was more annoyed than sad. Sigh. And yes, she will be pregnant.

I just prefer being surprised.

i did not realize the grieving woman was the grumpy Italian woman.

sad.

didn’t we see an scene exactly like that with thieves last week?

[mythoughtis]

Yes this was the second time people in this wagon train have stolen from each other.  The prior one was the men who stole from the Romany widow that Thomas is now taking care of.   Technically those men said her husband stole from them first/ but offered no proof and Shay didn’t seem to believe them. 
However they are now down to less than 30 people so they should run out of troublemakers soon. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by mythoughtis

[lucindabelle]

I’m willing to believe it happened more than once but the writing was so repetitive. Down to the I’ll kill your of you follow.

[LadyIrony]

I noticed the immigrants are starting to learn how to use guns. I knew it would just be a matter of time. Will be interesting to see how long it takes them to start dressing like Americans.

[janey99]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:36 PM, rhygirl720 said:

people have sex and ride horses quite frequently. Not unbelievable at all

I know right?  Sit back on your pockets, you'll be fine!  Especially in a western saddle!

[millennium]

Elsa's freedom seems to come at the cost of manipulating the people who love her -- her father, her mother, Ennis.   Any time they offer the least resistance to what she wants,  she just smiles pretty and they give in.  (She hasn't tried it on Sam Elliot yet; I'm guessing it wouldn't work.)

Good episode, though.

Couldn't they eat the bandits' horses if they're starving?

Edited February 14, 2022 by millennium

[Affogato]

 

 

On 1/24/2022 at 5:54 AM, LadyIrony said:

I noticed the immigrants are starting to learn how to use guns. I knew it would just be a matter of time. Will be interesting to see how long it takes them to start dressing like Americans.

They will find a Walmart eventually.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Affogato
i put in wrong ep

[LadyIrony]

19 hours ago, millennium said:

Elsa's freedom seems to come at the cost of manipulating the people who love her -- her father, her mother, Ennis.   Any time they offer the least resistance to what she wants,  she just smiles pretty and they give in.  (She hasn't tried it on Sam Elliot yet; I'm guessing it wouldn't work.)

Good episode, though.

Couldn't they eat the bandits' horses if they're starving?

It's all very convenient for Elsa isn't it? I would suspect in real life she would be the much protected pretty daughter and that long hair would be covered or cut short to disguise/dull down her looks. I highly doubt that a father or mother from that period would be comfortable with their daughter riding rough with cowboys and now Indians too. 

I guess the show isn't willing to get that realistic as to show them eating horses which I also suspect is exactly what would have happened.

[Rebky]

18 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

It's all very convenient for Elsa isn't it? I would suspect in real life she would be the much protected pretty daughter and that long hair would be covered or cut short to disguise/dull down her looks. I highly doubt that a father or mother from that period would be comfortable with their daughter riding rough with cowboys and now Indians too. 

I guess the show isn't willing to get that realistic as to show them eating horses which I also suspect is exactly what would have happened.

This!! I grew up in a time that there were no computers and I personally spent my time reading 100s of books on history. Taylor Sheridan's version of how the West was won is a male fantasy. Elsa's in your face relationship with the Commanche warrior would have been highly scorned by both the whites and the indigenous  peoples. A white woman like Elsa would have been hidden away because she would have been captured  and used as a slave, and treated horribly. Taylor needs to read several books.

[LadyIrony]

5 hours ago, Rebky said:

This!! I grew up in a time that there were no computers and I personally spent my time reading 100s of books on history. Taylor Sheridan's version of how the West was won is a male fantasy. Elsa's in your face relationship with the Commanche warrior would have been highly scorned by both the whites and the indigenous  peoples. A white woman like Elsa would have been hidden away because she would have been captured  and used as a slave, and treated horribly. Taylor needs to read several books.

It is sad because this show had so much potential. Shea is an awesome character and the most true to life one yet we get Elsa. And more Elsa! I am finding her boring and annoying. I will finish the season but am unsure if I will be back for season 2. 

They are painting her up to be some kind of Deanery's Goddess from Game of Thrones and yet even Deanery's was a terrible leader. Not to mention Elsa does not look capable of the feats she is achieving. 

Her romances whether with White or Native are from the pages of a pulp romance novel I agree. Her family would have been very religious and social mores of the time would not have been accepting of her sleeping around the way she does let alone in full view of everyone. When she was embracing Sam during the tornado, the two white men nearby would not have tolerated that nor would Sam's people be ok with it. 

A man of any colour back then also would not be ok with having a horse race against a woman let alone losing to her. I actually suspect Sam let her win anyway. 

I also grew up pre internet and am fascinated by the Wild West and Sheridan is in pure fantasy land here. While on the subject I doubt a black man would be riding with white men the way Thomas is. For a start, people like to be with their own, especially back then. Thomas seems too easily accepted anywhere he goes, with anyone he encounters. The Gypsy woman and the German immigrants don't even seem curious/amazed by him - Given they come from Europe it is doubtful that they would have ever seen a black man before. 

No questions for him at all?