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S01.E08: Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered


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12 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 

I know there is a group that think Blair Underwood is gross and David whatever is hot, but there is definitely a group of us who think the opposite.  I see no reason why Miranda wouldn't find Dr. Robert engaging and stimulating.

I have never made a secret of my adoration for Blair Underwood. I find him sexy as hell.  I swear he looks even better as  he ages. 

13 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

If I had any faith in the writers, I would say, Yes, Miranda is supposed to come across as a bit unhinged, swept up my a new passion that shed not experienced before. I would think that maybe Che triggered an awakening for Miranda, and that while Che is not Miranda’s end game, it showed Miranda that there is something else out there for her. 

If this was SATC I would say yes absolutely that is what is going to happen.  The women during that time always learned a lesson when they did something that had the audience saying I don't think (fill in the blank) would do that.....Oh ok yep that makes sense.   Unless we get a scene of Miranda looking inward instead of towards Che for her happiness this storyline will have been what killed the character formerly known as Miranda Hobbes.

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4 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Yes! Lots of people with demanding careers get so exhausted from work they don’t necessarily love to read literature or keep up with news and politics once they’re home. They want to watch TV and relax like everyone else. And sometimes people who don’t have the grind of a medical or law career have more time end energy to keep up with current events, read and have other hobbies. 

Also in financial careers like Big's, which is why he preferred to watch old B&W movies rather than go out on the town with Carrie. She spent her days wandering around buying over-priced shoes and trying to write her one column, so she didn't have a huge need to decompress from a stressful day. 

I wish they would have given us a bit more about Steve's bar, to show him as a competent businessman. We saw him on the phone trying to replace yet another bartender or manager who had flaked on him, which reflects the real shortage of service workers right now. Otherwise, his bar seems to be doing ok, and he "sent over" (I assumed as a gift) the alcohol for the bar at Big's memorial service.

Edited by RedHawk
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9 hours ago, ChattyCathyLA said:

I think my previous comment about Miranda ending up with Robert was misunderstood.  It wasn’t about “partying”.   I was just thinking that, if she had been living a more “stimulating” and “intellectually fulfilling” life with Robert … instead of just sitting on the sofa and eating ice cream while watching Netflix every night with Steve, she might not have become so bored and unsatisfied.  I mean … does anyone think that Steve was capable of carrying on an intellectual conversation with Miranda on her level?  There was a REASON for their nightly ritual!  What else could they do after work?  Discuss the concepts in the books Miranda is reading?  Current events?  With Robert, she would have been half of a “power couple” — he’s a doctor and she’s a Harvard educated lawyer!   I don’t know if they would have gotten married, but IMO, all the speculation about him leaving her for a cheerleader is moot … because he could have had one of those girls anytime, yet he wanted intellectual Miranda!  

They definitely dumbed Steve down over the course of the series. Wasn't he reading Proust the first time they met? I don't think it's fair to assume Steve isn't as intelligent as Miranda (or Robert) just because he didn't go to an Ivy league or choose a career as a doctor or lawyer. As far as we know, Steve is a successful business owner - that takes some level of intelligence. Steve can also be well-read AND like to watch sports AND like to play video games AND meet Miranda at her intellectual level. My DH and I are similar to Steve and Miranda (I have a doctorate, he graduated high school and owns a business), and I have more stimulating intellectual conversations with him than any of my college-educated friends or my doctorate-level colleagues. It's possible for couples who seem mis-matched on paper to be compatible and have not-boring marriages. 

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1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I know there is a group that think Blair Underwood is gross and David whatever is hot, but there is definitely a group of us who think the opposite.  I see no reason why Miranda wouldn't find Dr. Robert engaging and stimulating.

Whoa, who are these misguided souls? I mean....wow. Blair Underwood was very hot in this role, and I know I have a pretty strong anti-Steve bias, but come on. How could anyone deny Robert was at least a cutie?

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ETA: I forgot to say I found the lunch conversation bizarre. Miranda drops a life altering bomb and they spend a few seconds on it before getting caught up in the blow job. That could have been a great opportunity to bring it back to Miranda who might say, I should want to have that kind of chemistry and passion with Steve, and I don't. I feel like that could be a helpful analogy AND it would make the friends seem a little more attentive. If anything, Carrie and Charlotte's reactions to Miranda's news reinforce that Miranda is unrecognizable to the people who know her best.

 

This is so true. You should write for the show. As awkward as that situation was with Harry and Charlotte? Miranda should have been "oh wow...we don't even have that"

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One of the things that is really bugging me about this reboot or spinoff or whatever it is--is the Miranda drinking problem storyline. They make it seem like all a person has to do is step up their vagina and stop drinking like a woman and bam! cured. That is not how that works. You don't go from drinking at 11am and having mini-bottles in your backpack to completely fine and sober. No meetings-nothing. It diminishes the seriousness of alcoholism and makes it seem that all one needs to do is just stop drinking. I am not saying that for some people, it may have played out that way, but that is not the typical experience.

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

Robert and gross do not belong in the same sentence. Even if he’s not your type, he’s an undeniably handsome man imo. 

Robert is fiiine. Always has been. I have never seen anyone say otherwise and I refuse to hear it.

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Edited by GiveMeSpace
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25 minutes ago, GiveMeSpace said:

Robert is fiiine. Always has been. I have never seen anyone say otherwise and I refuse to hear it.

Agree. One of the best looking men to appear in the entire series. Blair also has a beautiful energy about him. 

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51 minutes ago, GiveMeSpace said:

 

One of the things that is really bugging me about this reboot or spinoff or whatever it is--is the Miranda drinking problem storyline. They make it seem like all a person has to do is step up their vagina and stop drinking like a woman and bam! cured. That is not how that works. You don't go from drinking at 11am and having mini-bottles in your backpack to completely fine and sober. No meetings-nothing. It diminishes the seriousness of alcoholism and makes it seem that all one needs to do is just stop drinking. I am not saying that for some people, it may have played out that way, but that is not the typical experience.

 

There’s that episode where Carrie dates a recovering alcoholic who gets with her despite the general rule of recovery being not to date anyone until you’ve been a year sober, then he gets addicted to having sex with Carrie and immediately relapses the moment she shows hesitancy.  That’s Miranda right now, all she’s done is replace booze with her honeymoon period with Che.  It’s a house of cards, Miranda!  It’s a house of cards!

I also thought it was refreshing how the original series let Miranda have her androgynous, menswear-heavy wardrobe and failed dalliances with same-sex attractions and had her NOT be queer.  That’s an interesting angle, to me. 

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7 minutes ago, Lethallyfab said:

There’s that episode where Carrie dates a recovering alcoholic who gets with her despite the general rule of recovery being not to date anyone until you’ve been a year sober, then he gets addicted to having sex with Carrie and immediately relapses the moment she shows hesitancy.  That’s Miranda right now, all she’s done is replace booze with her honeymoon period with Che.  It’s a house of cards, Miranda!  It’s a house of cards!

I also thought it was refreshing how the original series let Miranda have her androgynous, menswear-heavy wardrobe and failed dalliances with same-sex attractions and had her NOT be queer.  That’s an interesting angle, to me. 

Good point! Cynthia is a beautiful woman, so sometimes it frustrated me that she wasn't done up as well as the other three, but a lot of women like simple hair and makeup and androgynous attire. 

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24 minutes ago, Lethallyfab said:

I also thought it was refreshing how the original series let Miranda have her androgynous, menswear-heavy wardrobe and failed dalliances with same-sex attractions and had her NOT be queer.  That’s an interesting angle, to me. 

Agree.

Miranda and Samantha represented women who were old stereotypes of men.

Miranda was ambitious, independent, a kick ass lawyer, she didn't care about makeup and girly things, she wasn't trying to look overtly sexy.  A big episode that showed this was when she bought her own property and people kept saying to her over and over again, "Is your father signing for this?"  Miranda was supposed to represent a dream for women that they could be as financially independent, ambitious as a man. And all this while not caring a damn about the male gaze.  It's definitely a cool angle, there are straight women like this.

The original SATC was incredibly purposeful about Miranda's look and her sexuality.

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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2 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Agree.

Miranda and Samantha represented women who were old stereotypes of men.

Miranda was ambitious, independent, a kick ass lawyer, she didn't care about makeup and girly things, she wasn't trying to look overtly sexy.  A big episode that showed this was when she bought her own property and people kept saying to her over and over again, "Is your father signing for this?"  Miranda was supposed to represent a dream for women that they could be as financially independent, ambitious as a man. And all this while not caring a damn about the male gaze.  It's definitely a cool angle, there are straight women like this.

Yes, I remember that episode. Miranda was rightly annoyed if she were a man who had achieved all she had, she'd be considered a great catch. Because she was a single woman, she was considered sad. 

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I posted a link in the media thread that had a few quotes from queer people (all women, IIRC) and one of them mentioned how great it would be if we saw the intelligent, competent, kick-ass Miranda from SATC dealing with this whole divorce/new sexual identity, etc scenario, rather than how it's being depicted by this Invasion of the Body Snatchers version of her. I thought that was a very good point. Another mentioned this is very "U-Haul behavior" of Miranda. 

It was interesting to read how even though there is queer representation on the show, it's not necessarily being done in the way queer people would have liked.

Edited by Jillybean
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Quote

It was interesting to read how even though there is queer representation on the show, it's not necessarily being done in the way queer people would have liked.

Made worse by the fact there are at least two LGBTQ writers on staff. And of course Cynthia Nixon and Sara Ramirez.

Edited by ifionlyknew
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As a queer person, I think they’re falling into an “any representation is still representation, and is therefore a good thing” trap.   It meant a lot to me when Willow came out on ‘Buffy,’ because I considered myself a nerd like her.  It meant a lot having Max on ‘Happy Endings’ be a gay slob.

I have NO CLUE as to who Che Diaz is supposed to represent and/or appeal to — people who get so stoned that they don’t check their DMs for THREE MONTHS?  (Hey, show, an easy and realistic fix for this would’ve been Che saying someone else is in charge of their social media account.). People who fingerbang their crushes with their friends in the next room?   Someone who runs roughshod across their partner’s vows of monogamy?  People who have dirty podcasts and “comedy concerts” (also, it’s called stand-up, just call it stand-up) while being completely unfunny across the board?

I’m sure that my vitriol will be proven wrong and at least one person out there will be like “OMG, I’m *such* a Che!” but, also, why?  
 

Again, representation matters.  But a character being LGTBQ doesn’t magically make that character a good person or an aspirational portrayal of LGTBQ people.  

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1 minute ago, Lethallyfab said:

As a queer person, I think they’re falling into an “any representation is still representation, and is therefore a good thing” trap.

Bingo. As an openly bisexual woman, I'm absolutely cringing at this storyline. It's pathetic that given the opportunity to explore a real challenge that some women who discover their desire to explore aspects of their sexuality that they never thought they had (or dared to admit that they did) later in life and deal fairly with the complications that it can bring, we get this trash. That toxic, hurtful behavior is excused because... hey! Representation!

Of course, it feeds into the awful trope that bisexual women cannot be trusted because we're incapable of remaining monogamous regardless of our attractions. That if we decide that we meet someone that we're attracted to that is not our long-term partner, the logical thing is to bounce into bed with them regardless of the consequences to others. That it's okay to hurt your partner because you've got to be honest with yourself every second of the day. 

I'm totally surprised that they didn't trot out the other trope (based to some degree on reality), that lesbians have a hard suspicion of bisexual women and often won't get involved with one because they don't want to be left for a man, I'm rather shocked that Che didn't use that against Miranda, urging her to leave her husband in order to prove her queer credentials. 

Thankfully, a lot of other critics that I've seen are tearing the series apart, regardless of how hard the PR push is being made.

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On 1/22/2022 at 12:58 PM, JasonCC said:

Maybe it's just old age but this guy (gay male) wasn't that focused on the downstairs' neighbor's cock but on how flat and ripped his abs were. Of course he doesn't eat sugar! LOL

I am a hetero woman and I too noticed his abs!

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Here is my hope for what happens given what happened in this episode, but also the prior episodes.  

Miranda - for better or for worse - is clearly going through a lot.  She reached for the bottle during covid and exhibited alcoholic tendencies afterwards.  She and Steve haven't had sex in a long while and she has become more and more detached from the relationship and is no longer satisfied with their life together.  She doesn't like the direction that her parenting has taken with her son or the liberties that her son has taken within her parenting.  

Enter Che.  Che taps something in Miranda (sigh...no pun intended but literally and figuratively I suppose) and it's exciting for her and new to her.  And she makes the not uncommon mistake of thinking that Che represents the solution to her problems.  So she runs off to Che in rom-com Cleveland.

Except a few things happen.  Che has already told her that they loves her.  Che also told her they can't give her traditional and MIranda doesn't stop long enough to think about what that means (and probably thinks traditional in terms of sexuality and white picket fence, not that they might mean a monogamous relationship).  We also saw Che express immediate discontent for how Miranda handled their relationship and they clearly told her that she needed to work out whatever was going on.  MIranda interpreted that to mean her marriage.  We didn't hear Che specifically say that.  Because Miranda - as unhappy and discontent people often do, is grasping for what she thinks is going to be the fix, without really addressing the problems that got her there in the first place.  Honestly, most people can't just skip over that part.

So here is my hope.  She runs to Che in Cleveland.  She either discovers first hand what "untraditional" means for Che, or Che acknowledging the steps Miranda has taken is wise enough to say "I can't and won't be your bandaid, you need to deal with EVERYTHING first."  But no matter what, Che does not become endgame.

And instead we find Miranda left dealing with her messy life as she should be. Miranda is a mess.  Since episode 1 we've said "what the hell has happened to Miranda?"  Maybe, just maybe, the show will end with Miranda starting to deal with "what the hell has happened to Miranda?"

And if she comes out of that as a recovering alcoholic who now identifies as queer wanting to explore life in a new relationship, reconnecting appropriately with her son, working through a real separation with Steve (SOB!), yet coming back to her kick-ass Miranda roots, okay.  

But that type of recovery and self-awareness does not happen in just a few months time and it certainly doesn't come at the hands (literally and figuratively) of Che.

With our luck, we'll get Che and Miranda end-game, happily ever after for them, nobody else is bothered, because our writers suck at this.  

 

 

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11 hours ago, Rai said:

Whoa, who are these misguided souls? I mean....wow. Blair Underwood was very hot in this role, and I know I have a pretty strong anti-Steve bias, but come on. How could anyone deny Robert was at least a cutie?

 

10 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Robert and gross do not belong in the same sentence. Even if he’s not your type, he’s an undeniably handsome man imo. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't recall anyone saying Blair Underwood/Robert was gross. There were definitely people who said they prefer the look of David Eigenberg. That's not misguided, that's just a matter of people having different preferences. And, no, I wouldn't say Underwood is undeniably attractive. Do I think he's an attractive man? Sure. But, no matter how conventionally attractive he might appear to many that doesn't mean that there are some people whose boats he just doesn't float. 

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42 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

Do I think he's an attractive man? Sure. But, no matter how conventionally attractive he might appear to many that doesn't mean that there are some people whose boats he just doesn't float. 

This is me. Is Robert/Blair Underwood ugly? No. But neither do I think he's all that, either.

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Huge difference between calling someone "gross" and saying "nice but not for me." I was responding to the mere insinuation there are people out there who find Blair Underwood gross, and I'm pretty astounded by that notion. Less astounded that he may just not do it for everyone though.

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1 hour ago, Rai said:

Huge difference between calling someone "gross" and saying "nice but not for me." I was responding to the mere insinuation there are people out there who find Blair Underwood gross, and I'm pretty astounded by that notion. Less astounded that he may just not do it for everyone though.

Agree. Also, I'm someone who can find someone handsome, gorgeous even, but not be attracted to them. I can understand people feeling that way about the guys on SATC. 

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I feel like the actual characterization of Dr. Robert Leeds that I saw on the show is being presented differently here.

Obviously Robert was into sports - he was a sports doctor and spoke about the Knicks and invited Miranda to a basketball game.  But the other insinuations are simply made up.

I'm not into the idea that Robert wouldn't be stimulating enough for Miranda, and I'm not into the idea that Robert wasn't smart. Miranda was a homebody who was comfortable with Steve.  That doesn't mean that Robert wasn't intellectually stimulating enough for her.  I think the opposite, that Miranda found him stimulating in many different ways (and said so).

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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15 hours ago, mstar1125 said:

They definitely dumbed Steve down over the course of the series. Wasn't he reading Proust the first time they met? 

I have to ask where the idea that Steve was reading Proust came from.  We saw a blurry cover of a book and he never revealed the title.  He made a joke that he was reading The Joy of Bartending by Hemingway.

I think Miranda was attracted to Steve at first because he was assertive and put her in her place, not because he was some intellectual giant.  I agree that he regressed.  He would watch Scooby Doo and eat cereal on the couch and make noise while Miranda was trying to work.  He would throw basketballs in her house to get her attention.  He was pretty childish which is one of the reasons Miranda left him the first time around.

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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Based on what I remember, I don't think either Steve or Robert were extremes when it comes to being intellectual or just goofing around or whatever. I personally like balance. I want a man who cares about what's going on in the world, but someone serious 24/7? Bleh.  

Also, I think the ideal partner is someone who can make anything fun. Does that mean I want to spend every evening on the couch eating ice cream? No. I can understand Miranda not wanting that every single night, but honestly, isn't that enough for a lot of people on most nights? The average adult works several hours a day and does housework. How much energy is left throughout the work week for excitement? If you love each other, get each other's humor, are attracted to each other, spending most evenings chilling should still be nice. There are definitely marriages I look at and think, you know what? So glad I'm single! lol But like I've said in other threads, Miranda's life is awesome. She's healthy. Money isn't an issue. She has a sweet husband in Steve. They have a son together. She has friends who are like family to her. But she wants to throw her marriage away to be with someone she barely even knows? 

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There are many of us who hit our 50s and discover that our lives aren't what we expected them to be (or dreamed them to be when we were younger). Life threw us curveballs that we had no choice but to deal with and we don't get the luxury of throwing up our hands and throwing everything in the fire because all we can focus on is ourselves. We accept that the responsibility that we have for others in our life might impact upon our personal happiness at times and that while we might not find our existences exciting and new every moment, we can have satisfaction with things.

Miranda's life changed from what she thought it would be the instant she got pregnant and decided not to terminate. Having her son changed things for her. And it's telling that while Miranda is running away from her husband, she's running away from her son too. A son who is in his late teens and not an independent adult that she is right now abandoning because he, like his father and her job and everything else that isn't fulfilling her needs, isn't what she wants.

And yes, the show has been portraying Brady as a jerk who walks all over his parents, but who's fault is that? Why didn't Miranda (and Steve) but their foot down about his behavior? It seems that like everything else, Miranda let things slide because she didn't care enough to get her life as it stood in order. Letting her son be an indulgent asshole and not communicating her needs with her husband allowed her to indulge her need to paint her life as unbearable. She pulled back so much that when things didn't go in the direction that she wanted, she could point at it as justification for ditching the whole thing.

And maybe if this show existed in a vacuum and we didn't know Miranda from the previous series it might work. But we saw the woman who fell in love with the quiet, unassuming man that became her husband. We saw them building something that was different, but worked. And we saw Miranda happy and satisfied. We saw her caring enough about Steve to take in his mother who had dementia. We saw her be a loving mother. That is, until the show decided to retcon her entire history with Steve and have her paint it that she never really loved him. That's what makes her storyline so hard to swallow.

Do marriages that were once happy and loving break down? Of course they do. Couples sometimes reach a point where they just don't see eye to eye anymore. Steve is content with their lives because he thought he had a partner who would be his companion through all things and Miranda ended up not being content. That can and does happen. But Miranda takes no ownership that her emotional and physical neglecting of her relationship with her husband and her son got her to this point. That the Harvard trained lawyer who could argue any point into the ground couldn't tell her husband what she was feeling or needing, or even to tell her son to keep his ho girlfriend out of her house. Instead she tries to get her husband to reenact her kitchen tryst with Che without telling him that she needs him sexually. 

Of course, the reality isn't that she wanted or needed him sexually. It was more about trying to prove to herself that they just didn't work as a couple anymore (if they ever did). She set Steve up to fail and when he did, it became more justification for her acting in the way that she did this episode.

And she's doing the same thing with Che in a big way. She's not communicating, and for now, she seems to be accepting Che's terms for their relationship without understanding what that means. Che insisted that they don't do "traditional" and Miranda didn't bother to ask what that really means? Is it that Che doesn't believe in marriage or cohabiting? Or that she's polyamorous and that Miranda should not expect sexual fidelity from them? Abandoning the familiar for the unknown can be exciting, but Miranda threw a bomb into her marriage and destroyed it past the point of repair. Steve said it very clearly that he didn't have it in him to keep fighting for their relationship when she clearly didn't want to, so if she does arrive in Cleveland and find Che knees deep in another woman's pussy, it's going to come as a very rude and harsh awakening to just what she upended her life for.

Sorry for the novel-length post, but I really miss original series Miranda.

Edited by Hana Chan
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5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think Miranda was attracted to Steve at first because he was assertive and put her in her place, not because he was some intellectual giant. 

I agree with this.  She wasn't always nice to him and he called her out on it.

Miranda I always thought needed a man with a strong personality to match her strong personality.  But seeing how she acts around Che she seems to have lost that personality while sitting on the couch eating ice cream.

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Miranda's life changed from what she thought it would be the instant she got pregnant and decided not to terminate. Having her son changed things for her. And it's telling that while Miranda is running away from her husband, she's running away from her son too. A son who is in his late teens and not an independent adult that she is right now abandoning because he, like his father and her job and everything else that isn't fulfilling her needs, isn't what she wants.

I don't know if it was the writer's intent but I think having Brady behave so awfully with regards to having his girlfriend stay over and have loud sex in the room besides his parent's room was to have us think Miranda should happily walk away from him and Steve. 

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And maybe if this show existed in a vacuum and we didn't know Miranda from the previous series it might work.

Actually I think that character would also be intensely disliked.

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

But Miranda takes no ownership that her emotional and physical neglecting of her relationship with her husband and her son got her to this point.

That is one of the big problems with this storyline.  It's being shown as none of this is Miranda's fault.  We are supposed to feel sorry her and say you go girl get your happiness.  Could you imagine if this was a man doing this?

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

she seems to be accepting Che's terms for their relationship without understanding what that means. Che insisted that they don't do "traditional" and Miranda didn't bother to ask what that really means?

I hate how Miranda is with Che. She comes across as so desperate.  Like she is willing to accept whatever crumbs Che throws her way.

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

so if she does arrive in Cleveland and find Che knees deep in another woman's pussy, it's going to come as a very rude and harsh awakening to just what she upended her life for.

I have this sinking feeling we aren't going to see Cleveland.  I look for the show to pick up at some point after Miranda flew to Cleveland.  This show hasn't shown a lot of things they should have shown.   The writers would probably argue they didn't have enough time but I think it's just that they didn't want to deal with some things.

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10 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

That is one of the big problems with this storyline.  It's being shown as none of this is Miranda's fault.  We are supposed to feel sorry her and say you go girl get your happiness.  Could you imagine if this was a man doing this?

It happened in the first movie, when Miranda's and Steve's sex life dried up for a few months because she was so busy with work. He cheated on her one time and she spent the rest of the movie bemoaning about how betrayed she feels and making him crawl over broken glass in order to gain her forgiveness. Steve's behavior was clearly painted as being in the wrong and he worked to show his regret over what he did.

What bugged me most of all (once we get past the perfect morphing of Miranda into Cynthia Nixon) is just how giddy Miranda was when she left Steve. There was absolutely no remorse over betraying her husband and then just blindsiding him with a demand to divorce. She spent that whole scene basically beating Steve down, making him and their relationship worthless in her eyes and all but ridiculing the fact that he's content with the life that she's so miserable in. There was no give and take, and no accepting that she is just as much to blame for things being wrong between them. It's all Nope! She met someone new and was discarding her husband (and son) like a pair of old shoes.

And then laughing afterwards? It just shows that she had no compassion or empathy for her husband. She's getting what she wants and the hell with everyone else. 

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9 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

It happened in the first movie, when Miranda's and Steve's sex life dried up for a few months because she was so busy with work. He cheated on her one time and she spent the rest of the movie bemoaning about how betrayed she feels and making him crawl over broken glass in order to gain her forgiveness. Steve's behavior was clearly painted as being in the wrong and he worked to show his regret over what he did.

Yes but he didn't leave her. He knew he made a mistake and wanted forgiveness.  Now if he had told her our life means nothing to me and oh by the way I met someone  Miranda would have made his life even more hellish.  And no way would have Carrie told her to forgive him if Steve had wanted to come back.

12 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

What bugged me most of all (once we get past the perfect morphing of Miranda into Cynthia Nixon) is just how giddy Miranda was when she left Steve.

Her using the phrase rom com was just so wrong.  Yes I get that she thinks she is living that but we the audience don't see it that way.  If we don't get to see Miranda finally understand how awful she has been acting then this whole series will have been a colossal waste of my time. 

15 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

And then laughing afterwards? It just shows that she had no compassion or empathy for her husband. She's getting what she wants and the hell with everyone else. 

I said on an earlier thread if this is supposed be Cynthia Nixon's story I feel compassion for her ex.

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7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I have to ask where the idea that Steve was reading Proust came from.  We saw a blurry cover of a book and he never revealed the title.  He made a joke that he was reading The Joy of Bartending by Hemingway.

 

It was also my memory that Steve was reading Proust when they first met. I have a habit of zooming in on pics or pausing shows to see what books are being read, so I assume that's what I did. The clip got posted here but I couldn't make it out, but I also haven't gone back to watch the actual episode again. I need to. 

 

I had the impression that Che was pan and slept with men and women but I'm not sure where I got that idea. Did we hear them self identify that way at some point? 

Edited by luna1122
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7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm not into the idea that Robert wouldn't be stimulating enough for Miranda, and I'm not into the idea that Robert wasn't smart.

I haven't seen that idea.  Nor have I seen the idea that Robert was gross.  And this is from me who absolutely did say that I thought DE had a more interesting face to look at.  That doesn't mean Blair Underwood is gross. He is objectively (as objectively as subjective opinions can be) more beautiful.

This Robert discussion happened when someone asked whether or not Miranda would be more intellectually stimulated with Robert, 20-something years later, than she is with Steve because of what Robert did for a living. 

In other words, would a doctor automatically be a more interesting companion than a bartender? I disagree with that assessment.  I don't think Robert is dumb but just because he's a doctor doesn't mean he's automatically going to be a better day-to-day fit with Miranda.  Or a more interesting person to be around long term  than Steve. Clearly he wasn't because she chose being with Steve over being with him.

 

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20 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

It was also my memory that Steve was reading Proust when they first met. I have a habit of zooming in on pics or pausing shows to see what books are being read, so I assume that's what I did. The clip got posted here but I couldn't make it out, but I also haven't gone back to watch the actual episode again. I need to. 

 

I just watched that scene and I couldn't make out the title but the book did look like it had a ribbon on the cover. The kind that say it is an award winner.  

Regardless of what the name of the book was the Steve we met that episode was not the Steve he became as his relationship with Miranda got more serious.  And as many of us has said I have no idea why they seemed to dumb him down.

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6 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

Yes but he didn't leave her. He knew he made a mistake and wanted forgiveness.  Now if he had told her our life means nothing to me and oh by the way I met someone  Miranda would have made his life even more hellish.  And no way would have Carrie told her to forgive him if Steve had wanted to come back.

If anything, this makes Miranda's behavior worse because when Steve cheated, he immediately accepted that what he did was wrong. That going through a sexual dry spell was not a reason to cheat on his wife and he wasn't allowed to use any of his reasons for cheating as an excuse. His cheating was treated as something bad and not a justifiable action because he was unhappy with the state of their marriage and he was still committed to trying to fix what was wrong and do right by his wife and son.

Miranda totally gave up on their relationship long ago. She never brought up that she was unhappy and feeling neglected and unfulfilled and never gave Steve any real feedback on how she saw things. And her being unhappy is being treated as justification for not just cheating on her husband but unilaterally deciding that there was no salvaging their marriage. So if one of them was deserving of forgiveness and understanding, it sure as hell isn't Miranda IMO.

Edited by Hana Chan
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7 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Miranda totally gave up on their relationship long ago.

And we didn't get to see that. We only have Miranda's point of view.  At the end of the first movie they recommitted to each other and the second movie they seemed fine. But now because the writers (and Cynthia Nixon) want to tell this specific story we have Miranda telling Carrie how unhappy she is.  If they had done the third movie instead of this series and they had shown Miranda and Steve growing apart and her meeting someone I think we probably would have been more open to that.  

Edited by ifionlyknew
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I still don't understand why Brady was aged down to 17 when he should be about 20. As others have said, he could easily have been a college student who came home to attend classes remotely during Covid, and then decided it works and so he's still there. Having the girlfriend practically living with him would make more sense and Miranda and Steve wouldn't look like such pushover parents who can't set and enforce appropriate rules and boundaries.

Clearly Brady's behavior seems to be another thing Miranda wants to escape without having actually tried to change. Do the writers think we sympathize with her losing control of her life so badly? I get that the writers think that many viewers (especially women with teenage sons) would find all this "relatable" but I sure don't.

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11 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Do the writers think we sympathize with her losing control of her life so badly?

I think they do.  They have shown me they really don't know or don't care what women in their 50s are really like. Despite the fact they have three actresses in their 50s portraying the three main characters.

One thing SATC was really good at was viewers weren't expected to sympathize with the characters.  Sure there were times we did but I don't think the stories were written with that purpose in mind.  We watched the women live their lives and sometimes we related to them. Sometimes we thought they were making huge mistakes.  But overall mostly we enjoyed watching their stories.  

But this storyline with Miranda they have tried so hard to tilt things so the audience will be on Miranda's side.  I keep hoping this is just a set up for us to see Miranda be dealt a big dose of reality but I wouldn't bet on it.  

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If the writers want to say this is who Miranda has become during the years of her marriage we didn't see, ok, I accept it. Sometimes people change a lot, especially in long marriages where they get stuck and don't grow for various reasons. While I don't like that she refuses to see the damage she's doing, it's realistic and many of us know someone who has been so "in love" with someone new that they justified similar selfish behavior. However it turned out, there were wounded people left behind. Carrie was not on board with Miranda's behavior and basically threw her hands up, seemingly aware that she'll have to help her friend deal with the consequences at some point.

Perhaps they're setting Miranda up for a Season 2 living-on-her-own self-discovery story line. I recall that she told Dr. Nya that she wished she could come home to an empty house. The Miranda of the first movie might have already made this journey if she had decided she should divorce Steve then and figure herself out.

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9 hours ago, RedHawk said:

If the writers want to say this is who Miranda has become during the years of her marriage we didn't see, ok, I accept it. Sometimes people change a lot, especially in long marriages where they get stuck and don't grow for various reasons. While I don't like that she refuses to see the damage she's doing, it's realistic and many of us know someone who has been so "in love" with someone new that they justified similar selfish behavior. However it turned out, there were wounded people left behind. Carrie was not on board with Miranda's behavior and basically threw her hands up, seemingly aware that she'll have to help her friend deal with the consequences at some point.

Perhaps they're setting Miranda up for a Season 2 living-on-her-own self-discovery story line. I recall that she told Dr. Nya that she wished she could come home to an empty house. The Miranda of the first movie might have already made this journey if she had decided she should divorce Steve then and figure herself out.

Red, I think you're right that the show is setting us up for a single Miranda living on her own.  We've been set up for her getting her heart broken by Che and breaking it off with them, or revolving herself around them like a lovesick groupie while they go off doing their own "nontraditional" thing.

Getting back to the dumbing down of Steve, I don't think his character was ever written to be anything but "blue collar" in his intellect and general personality in spite of the scene where they first met.  I remember his relationship with his mother, who was wonderfully played by Anne Meara as a quintessentially NY woman of a certain generation and socio-economic background.  And it wasn't the Proust reading kind, but the six pack and a ball game kind.  She'd be very much at home living in Archie Bunker's neighborhood.  That doesn't imply a lack of intelligence, just a different social background from Miranda.  And not even that different since Miranda wasn't exactly a snob or anything.

About Miranda's change in personality, I think one of the reasons people are having a hard time with it is that it doesn't seem to flow organically from the Miranda we knew almost 20 years ago.  Sure, people can change a lot but the change should feel plausible.  Some of this change feels like it was a template from someone else's life slapped onto her, not a change that would make sense for the character to have gone through in that time.  Plus there is no attempt being made to make the change in her plausible to the audience.  No dialogue to explain it, nothing.  Just that she has been unhappy and not having sex with her husband, and not communicating with him for YEARS.  Oh and he seems to have become doddering and pathetic.  It's just too simplistic and vague.  The fact that it doesn't add up to the audience is the fault of the poor writing, in my opinion.

Edited by Yeah No
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On 1/24/2022 at 12:39 PM, RealHousewife said:

Agree. One of the best looking men to appear in the entire series. Blair also has a beautiful energy about him. 

 

He makes me want to buy knee pills and I don't even need knee pills

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22 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Agree. Also, I'm someone who can find someone handsome, gorgeous even, but not be attracted to them. I can understand people feeling that way about the guys on SATC. 

I have a friend who loves Chris Evans. Once upon a time, she gave me the stinkiest of stink eyes when I innocently said I objectively thought he was good looking, but subjectively, he doesn't really move the needle for me. After seeing the look on her face I said "I mean, I'm not gonna turn him down if he asks me to dinner" and that has been my way of expressing this ever since.

Blair Underwood is the Chris Evans of SATC for me: clearly a handsome man, but not necessarily my type physically. Still accepting a dinner date, though.

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On 1/24/2022 at 4:53 AM, Pestilentia said:

Is it really that much of a stretch to think a bar owner could hold a conversation or appreciate anything in life other than a cold brew? He's not a doddering idiot. Are we really judging someone's intelligence and ability to hold a 'stimulating conversation' by their career choice? An affable nature does not preclude an inquiring mind or an ability to speak, nor does an MD after one's name make someone an intellectual titan or a desirable partner.  Honestly, we need to apologize to bartenders everywhere after this!    

 

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I much prefer a Steve over a Robert, but it all comes down to personal taste, IMO. No one will always agree on type. Shrug. I have long said Robert may be nice to look at, but he honestly bored me silly.

Others dislike or disliked Steve.

Probably why the original series had so many different men: A type for everyone!

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I wasn’t insulting “bartenders everywhere” when I said that Steve Was not in Miranda’s level.  It is just about Steve.  Or … did everyone just conveniently FORGET how Steve was watching children’s CARTOONS loudly on T.V. while Miranda was preparing a brief for a legal case?  Sorry … for all the arguments on here, I fail to see how Steve’s intellectual capability can possibly be compared to Robert’s.  JMHO

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As I just realized this is an episode thread myself, and this debate does not pertain to the episode itself, I think it may be a good idea - should anyone wish to continue - to take this to Small Talk.

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Miranda read  gossip magazines while Steve worked on their new house. I think you can be intelligent and still like things like cartoons and trashy mags. 

Miranda was intelligent enough to be a good lawyer, obviously, but I've never considered her an intellectual. I have no idea if Robert was an intellectual. Steve wasn't, probably, Proust or no Proust aside, but liking cartoons didn't make him stupid. 

Neither did liking to watch TV and eat ice cream, which are also things we saw Miranda enjoying when she was single. Miranda's pretty much the only one we ever saw watching TV, and often. 

Anyway. It’s not enough for her now, which is valid.  Blackish, last nite, had a funny subplot about this very thing. The on again, off again grandparents, who are on again, had settled into a routine of certain meals on certain nights in front of certain shows (shrimp scampi while watching Jeopardy) and asked their grandson and his girlfriend for tips on keeping things interesting. The things the young couple suggested seemed pedestrian and silly to the older folks and vice versa, cuz every couple has their own style.  Anyway, at least they were TRYING to address what could be an issue of predictability to shake things up. Miranda apparently was discontented but never actually tried to do anything about it. I wonder if she hadn't met Che if she'd ever have addressed it or just gone on being unhappy without changing anything. It's sadly realistic that most people won't do anything about a situation until they have a new person or place to go. 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Miranda apparently was discontented but never actually tried to do anything about it. I wonder if she hadn't met Che if she'd ever have addressed it or just gone on being unhappy without changing anything. It's sadly realistic that most people won't do anything about a situation until they have a new person or place to go. 

She was also drinking a lot.  Would she have been open to having an affair if she hadn't developed a drinking problem? I haven't made up my mind if she fell for Che or fell for the first person that showed her any attention.  As other posters have said instead of dealing with the issues that led her to start drinking she has turned from the bottle to Che. Miranda needs therapy.  If you are that unhappy you can't rely on someone or something to make you happy.  Because once that goes away you are going to be even more unhappier.

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On 1/25/2022 at 9:43 AM, Hana Chan said:

What bugged me most of all (once we get past the perfect morphing of Miranda into Cynthia Nixon) is just how giddy Miranda was when she left Steve. There was absolutely no remorse over betraying her husband and then just blindsiding him with a demand to divorce. She spent that whole scene basically beating Steve down, making him and their relationship worthless in her eyes and all but ridiculing the fact that he's content with the life that she's so miserable in. There was no give and take, and no accepting that she is just as much to blame for things being wrong between them. It's all Nope! She met someone new and was discarding her husband (and son) like a pair of old shoes.

And then laughing afterwards? It just shows that she had no compassion or empathy for her husband. She's getting what she wants and the hell with everyone else. 

And Carrie looked super annoyed with her sounding so delusional and ridiculous on the phone. When Carrie becomes the most rational one in the series, you have to wonder…

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