Season 11: Goodbye Abbie!

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah Adam was impossible to replace. He was just so damn good. He could be funny and serious and both were believable. He could spend an episode teasing Jack about being part of the Family and he could spend a moment when discussing abortion with Ben and Paul pointing out that they were all men. He could walk into an interrogation and clear the room and it never came off odd. There was just no actor or actress that could ever follow Adam no matter how good they were.

I am a fan of Dianne West but she was just miscast and the writing did her no favors. Her scenes with Jack always made me think more of Jack going to see an old professor to talk about a case then Jack talking to his boss.   

Yep, Nora just lacked authority as the DA, she just didn’t seem like the boss I agree. 

[Spartan Girl]

I always get annoyed when the jerkass dad who knew his drug addicted son (who was blackmailing him about who he thought was his illegitimate daughter) had actually killed himself all along whines at Jack and Abbie, “Why could you just leave it alone?!”

Sir*, it is their job to look into mysterious deaths. You could have easily cleared everything up from the beginning. Hell, you could have called 911 when your son shot himself instead of just taking the gun and leaving him in the street. Yet you chose to keep your mouth shut and let your mistress’ daughter be falsely accused because you didn’t want the whole sordid affair out in the open. 

*Yes, I channeled a bit of Ben Stone there 😉

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I always get annoyed when the jerkass dad who knew his drug addicted son (who was blackmailing him about who he thought was his illegitimate daughter) had actually killed himself all along whines at Jack and Abbie, “Why could you just leave it alone?!”

Sir*, it is their job to look into mysterious deaths. You could have easily cleared everything up from the beginning. Hell, you could have called 911 when your son shot himself instead of just taking the gun and leaving him in the street. Yet you chose to keep your mouth shut and let your mistress’ daughter be falsely accused because you didn’t want the whole sordid affair out in the open. 

*Yes, I channeled a bit of Ben Stone there 😉

Agreed 100%. That guy was a jackass and he should’ve been charged with obstruction of justice and tampering with evidence, he didn’t tell the truth to the police and DA’s until he had to. He pissed me off, he probably would’ve let someone else go to prison for the murder that was actually a suicide.

[andromeda331]

Turnstile Justice is a really good episode. I like that they didn't stop with the murderer and went find out who let him out of jail. It was clear Gallant had mental problems and had he been seen by any doctor while in jail they would have seen that. The smary HMO guy trying to insist it wasn't his fault. I loved him getting nailed. Yeah, it is your fault. Your the one who cut off medical treatment to the inmates. Your the one that fired the doctor that was seeing patients for seeing too many. The best irony is that will now be his health care while he's in jail. I so hope he gets sick so he can get the same treatment that he doled out.

The Judge in Dissonance should have recused himself since he was clearly bias.  Nora was surprising strong dealing with him and in the previous episode. I like that she didn't back down from her threat to go to the board. It was interesting ending with the wife confessing. They both have a strong motive. I like the guy low on the totem pole annoyed that he was being question because they were low on the totem pole. He had a good point. If anything the stage hands would be the ones with info on everyone in the orchestra.

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Turnstile Justice is a really good episode. I like that they didn't stop with the murderer and went find out who let him out of jail. It was clear Gallant had mental problems and had he been seen by any doctor while in jail they would have seen that. The smary HMO guy trying to insist it wasn't his fault. I loved him getting nailed. Yeah, it is your fault. Your the one who cut off medical treatment to the inmates. Your the one that fired the doctor that was seeing patients for seeing too many. The best irony is that will now be his health care while he's in jail. I so hope he gets sick so he can get the same treatment that he doled out.

The Judge in Dissonance should have recused himself since he was clearly bias.  Nora was surprising strong dealing with him and in the previous episode. I like that she didn't back down from her threat to go to the board. It was interesting ending with the wife confessing. They both have a strong motive. I like the guy low on the totem pole annoyed that he was being question because they were low on the totem pole. He had a good point. If anything the stage hands would be the ones with info on everyone in the orchestra.

I really like the investigation in Turnstile Justice - some really good detective work from Briscoe and Green tracking down the victim’s identity and finding out who killed her. I agree with what you are saying about how negligent the system was and how Nora did something about it, it was one of Nora’s better episodes.

I have mixed feelings on Judge Wright, he was a total asshole in Damaged, but I agreed with him tossing the verdict out in Gunshow, I don’t think he ever should’ve let that case go to verdict, it was a civil matter and not a criminal one IMO. But yes he had a vendetta with Jack and should’ve recused himself. It was an interesting ending as it was one of the times I was unsure who the guilty party was, I liked that. I agree that Nora was pretty good in both of those episodes. 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I really like the investigation in Turnstile Justice - some really good detective work from Briscoe and Green tracking down the victim’s identity and finding out who killed her. I agree with what you are saying about how negligent the system was and how Nora did something about it, it was one of Nora’s better episodes.

I have mixed feelings on Judge Wright, he was a total asshole in Damaged, but I agreed with him tossing the verdict out in Gunshow, I don’t think he ever should’ve let that case go to verdict, it was a civil matter and not a criminal one IMO. But yes he had a vendetta with Jack and should’ve recused himself. It was an interesting ending as it was one of the times I was unsure who the guilty party was, I liked that. I agree that Nora was pretty good in both of those episodes. 

While I do wish they could be held accountable because the gun company knows darn well how easy it was to motify their gun and change the design to at least make it more difficult (I'm not sure you can ever make a gun that can't be motified). Your right that it was a civil matter. McCoy could have gathered the evidence to hand over to a civil lawyer. But they didn't do anything illegal. A law suit would be what made them change the design if they were found guilty which they probably would be. I don't like the judge but I do love his speech in Gunshow. 

Judge:v It's based on the jury's outrage at Mr. Weber's irresponsible and inexcusable conduct. You want to end the violence, the bloodletting. So do I, Mr. McCoy. In my 30 years on the bench, I've seen every permutation of it, and it sickens me when somebody profits from it. But tempted though I may be, putting Mr. Weber in jail won't end the carnage. Until we cure what ails the human heart, we won't make a dent in the body count. In the meantime, no matter how profound our grief, our indignation, I can't let you use this court to raise a lynch mob. I won't allow you to exploit the same base passions Mr. Weber counts on to beef up his bottom line. It's not about being right, Mr. McCoy. It's about doing right.

 

[Xeliou66]

Brother’s Keeper was on, this is such a good episode with an intricate plot, really interesting how they realIzed that Cally’s brother was the one who committed the first murder, and given how similar they looked they could be mistaken for each other. I liked Green’s rage at Cally after the cab driver’s murder. It was interesting how the FBI was using Cally as an informant, and the one agent who had been friends with him for life was helping him. Donald Lonegan was a coward, he couldn’t bring himself to admit to his crime. It was an interesting ending with Cally getting killed in prison, Cally got what he deserved IMO, he murdered an innocent man just because he could’ve implicated Donald. I doubt they ever could’ve charged Donald for the murder he committed, but I don’t know how Donald could live with himself knowing he got an innocent man killed, apparently he was more like Cally than either of them wanted to admit. Both of them were scum. Very intricate and interesting episode.

[Xeliou66]

I watched Bronx Cheer last night, this is a great episode - very good case with how the murderer had killed in the Bronx but someone else went to prison for it, and it was interesting to see the characters deal with the Bronx people and try to free the innocent guy. This was a good episode for Nora, she did a good job in dealing with the Bronx DA, sometimes Nora came off as weak, she didn’t here, she was very effective. Jack was great as always and I liked how he was willing to file the petition to release the innocent guy and was able to get him out, his argument to the court was effective. I’m not sure what the Bronx DA’s issue was - he just refused to acknowledge his office made a mistake, I guess part of it was he didn’t like another DA’s office, particularly Manhattan, correct a mistake his office made. But he became extremely unsympathetic when he wouldn’t release the innocent man after the other suspect confessed and pled guilty. It was frustrating that the real killer got off with a rather light sentence for 2 murders, but getting the innocent guy out of jail was more important and they didn’t really have a case against him for the Manhattan murder that started the episode. Briscoe/Green were great as always and I liked their investigation and how they figured out who did it and that the Bronx had the wrong guy. It’s one of my favorite season 11 episodes.

[andromeda331]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Bronx Cheer last night, this is a great episode - very good case with how the murderer had killed in the Bronx but someone else went to prison for it, and it was interesting to see the characters deal with the Bronx people and try to free the innocent guy. This was a good episode for Nora, she did a good job in dealing with the Bronx DA, sometimes Nora came off as weak, she didn’t here, she was very effective. Jack was great as always and I liked how he was willing to file the petition to release the innocent guy and was able to get him out, his argument to the court was effective. I’m not sure what the Bronx DA’s issue was - he just refused to acknowledge his office made a mistake, I guess part of it was he didn’t like another DA’s office, particularly Manhattan, correct a mistake his office made. But he became extremely unsympathetic when he wouldn’t release the innocent man after the other suspect confessed and pled guilty. It was frustrating that the real killer got off with a rather light sentence for 2 murders, but getting the innocent guy out of jail was more important and they didn’t really have a case against him for the Manhattan murder that started the episode. Briscoe/Green were great as always and I liked their investigation and how they figured out who did it and that the Bronx had the wrong guy. It’s one of my favorite season 11 episodes.

It's one of the best of season 11. I love Jack, Nora and all of them trying so hard to get the innocent man out of jail. It was frustrating that the Bronx didn't want to do anything about it and refused to admit they made a mistake. Yeah, it sucks but not letting him out their making it a bigger mistake by not wanting to let him out. The investigation was great it was fun following it and realizing that the Bronx had the wrong guy.

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It's one of the best of season 11. I love Jack, Nora and all of them trying so hard to get the innocent man out of jail. It was frustrating that the Bronx didn't want to do anything about it and refused to admit they made a mistake. Yeah, it sucks but not letting him out their making it a bigger mistake by not wanting to let him out. The investigation was great it was fun following it and realizing that the Bronx had the wrong guy.

Yes it’s a great episode, I really liked seeing them try to get the innocent guy out of prison. The Bronx DA became very unsympathetic when he refused to release the innocent guy after the other suspect pled guilty - he was just too stubborn to admit his office made a mistake, I have to say I think the publicity would be worse with him trying to keep the guy in jail than if he just admitted his office screwed up. 
Nora held her own with the Bronx DA, she was very good in this episode. I have to say I think Nora was pretty good in some episodes, she wasn’t the best character but she also had the unenviable task of replacing the legendary Adam. But Nora had some good moments, and she could exercise her authority when she wanted to, it’s too bad she came off as weak and shaky in some episodes when she could be effective. 
Jack was great as usual in this episode, I like how he fought just as hard to get the innocent guy released as he fought to get the guilty punished, that’s part of what makes him such a great character, his zeal for justice. I liked how he said it was nice to get someone out of jail for a change at the end. 
It was a difficult case in that the actual murderer Taz got off with 7-15 years for his 2 murders, it was pretty clear he was a sociopath with no remorse for what he did, but there were major complications with the case in the Bronx and there was no solid evidence in the Manhattan murder that started the episode, so making a deal was the best thing they could do. But it would still be a tough pill to swallow for the families of the 2 victims. 
I liked Briscoe/Green going to the bars to ID the victim and figuring out Taz was lying from the dry cleaners, the investigative part of the show was at its best with Briscoe and Green IMO, they are just fantastic. Season 11 has some excellent episodes, Bronx Cheer is definitely a top 5 in the season for me. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Huh. I wonder if the reason why WE is skipping the premiere is because of a cameo of a certain real life person. I always found it 🙄🙄🙄🙄 at how Nora acted like a giggly fangurl.

[Xeliou66]

51 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Huh. I wonder if the reason why WE is skipping the premiere is because of a cameo of a certain real life person. I always found it 🙄🙄🙄🙄 at how Nora acted like a giggly fangurl.

WE is skipping all over the place, I don’t think it has anything to do with Giuliani’s cameo - WE is skipping all the way to season 13 next Friday. 
I agree that Nora’s behavior at the start was a bit off, she seemed in over her head. But like I said, she had some good moments as DA, like in the Bronx Cheer episode.

[andromeda331]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:41 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Huh. I wonder if the reason why WE is skipping the premiere is because of a cameo of a certain real life person. I always found it 🙄🙄🙄🙄 at how Nora acted like a giggly fangurl.

It's kind of funny now. Given Nora's stand on things and how ah Giuliani's later stand on things. I imagine she must have been disappointed in him later. Then again we've all been there with a celebrity or someone else famous who went crazy, criminal or something else.

[Xeliou66]

Season 11 has some really awesome episodes, I just saw Teenage Wasteland and Phobia, those are both fantastic episodes

Teenage Wasteland is a fascinating and thought provoking episode, both the arguments at the end from Jack and the defense attorney were strong. I’m not sure if the jury got it right or not by giving the death sentence. I didn’t buy Mitch’s remorse act, he was just sorry he got caught, he was a sociopath and he committed a vicious, premeditated murder for no reason other than he wanted to. He was evil and so I lean towards believing he deserved the death sentence. But the defense attorney made a good point that nothing is certain at the defendant’s age and that there was the possibility he could change. But I think it was unlikely he would ever change for the better. I liked the scene where the DAs discussed the case in the conference room - that was a good scene. It’s a very strong episode.

Phobia is great as well, I love Jack’s passionate closing at the end, saying that it was the victim and his partner’s love and care for the child that saved the child when his life hung in the balance and calling out the defense’s homophobia for basically arguing the murder was justified. The defense lawyer came off as a major homophobe, just like her scumbag client - she was basically arguing that the victim deserved to die just because he was gay and had adopted a kid, and it was clear the perp didn’t give a fuck about the kid, he was just a gay bashing piece of crap. Jack’s cross of him was great when he provoked the killer into basically calling the victim a pervert. I was glad the jury convicted. Celia pissed me off though, she was whiny and selfish, she didn’t intend for a murder to happen but she knew her baby daddy was a vile bigot and she provoked him into kidnapping the kid all for her own selfish reasons. She deserved to go to prison too and I’m not sure why she got off so easy, and I hope Albers never let Celia anywhere near the kid, she didn’t even seem to care that one of the adoptive parents had been killed, she was just a selfish bitch. I wouldn’t put it past Celia to try to kidnap the kid again if given a chance, hopefully Albers never let her near the kid.

More season 11 episodes air for the rest of the day on WE - all very strong episodes. I love Briscoe/Green.
 

[andromeda331]

Teenage Wasteland-I agree with you that he killed because he wanted too. That's evil. The defense lawyer isn't wrong, it's possible he could change decades down the road. But I don't know how often that happens. Or for someone who ordered Chinese food with the intention of killing the poor man can change. 

Phobia-I have no idea why Celia didn't go to jail for murder either. She went to get her baby back period. When she found out he was adopted by a gay couple she went intentional went to her ex who she knew hated gay people. She was part of it and go to jail for it. I agree the lawyer was homophobic too and not just doing her job. I don't think someone who wasn't would act like the victim deserved to die.  

[Xeliou66]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Teenage Wasteland-I agree with you that he killed because he wanted too. That's evil. The defense lawyer isn't wrong, it's possible he could change decades down the road. But I don't know how often that happens. Or for someone who ordered Chinese food with the intention of killing the poor man can change. 

Phobia-I have no idea why Celia didn't go to jail for murder either. She went to get her baby back period. When she found out he was adopted by a gay couple she went intentional went to her ex who she knew hated gay people. She was part of it and go to jail for it. I agree the lawyer was homophobic too and not just doing her job. I don't think someone who wasn't would act like the victim deserved to die.  

Yes it was clear that Mitch was a sociopath who wanted to kill the restaurant owner all along and he was only sorry he got caught. And I don’t think he would change after spending many years in prison. His lawyer still made a strong argument for him. I liked the scene of Nora discussing the case with all of the high ranking prosecutors in the office. It’s a very strong and interesting episode.

Celia should’ve gone to prison - she planned the kidnapping and the victim died as a result, I have no idea why they went so light on her. I hope Albers kept the kid far away from Celia. And yeah the defense lawyer was a homophobe, she seemed to agree with her client’s hateful views. I loved when Jack provoked the perp into lashing out and calling the victim a pervert on cross. And Jack’s closing was great - he directly called out the defense for their homophobic bullshit and said he hoped the jury would decide the love and care the victim and his partner provided for the baby would deserve better than the victim being killed. Glad the jury got the right verdict. 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes it was clear that Mitch was a sociopath who wanted to kill the restaurant owner all along and he was only sorry he got caught. And I don’t think he would change after spending many years in prison. His lawyer still made a strong argument for him. I liked the scene of Nora discussing the case with all of the high ranking prosecutors in the office. It’s a very strong and interesting episode. 

I like that part too. It's really the only time I found Nora interesting because she was against the death penalty. She talked to the other prosecutors and read the law books. But in the end did her job following the law.  

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I like that part too. It's really the only time I found Nora interesting because she was against the death penalty. She talked to the other prosecutors and read the law books. But in the end did her job following the law.  

Nora had a couple of interesting episodes - this one and Bronx Cheer were definitely Nora’s two best episodes. In Teenage Wasteland, it was interesting seeing Nora consult with the others and decided what to do, and in Bronx Cheer she did a good job standing up to the Bronx DA who refused to admit his office made an error. Other than those two episodes she was usually pretty dull. She just lacked personality and seemed in over her head a couple of times, then again it was impossible to replace Adam who was such an awesome DA. 

[andromeda331]

15 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Nora had a couple of interesting episodes - this one and Bronx Cheer were definitely Nora’s two best episodes. In Teenage Wasteland, it was interesting seeing Nora consult with the others and decided what to do, and in Bronx Cheer she did a good job standing up to the Bronx DA who refused to admit his office made an error. Other than those two episodes she was usually pretty dull. She just lacked personality and seemed in over her head a couple of times, then again it was impossible to replace Adam who was such an awesome DA. 

I agree. Most of the time she comes off more like a professor that Jack consults then a DA. 

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. Most of the time she comes off more like a professor that Jack consults then a DA. 

Definitely, and Nora was a professor for a while before becoming DA. She just didn’t seem to exercise her authority like the others did. But she had a few good moments, and I’m willing to cut her some slack in that she was replacing the awesome Adam. It’s always hard to replace a great character. 

[andromeda331]

On 3/7/2024 at 6:38 AM, Xeliou66 said:

I’m willing to cut her some slack in that she was replacing the awesome Adam. It’s always hard to replace a great character. 

I agree Adam was irreplaceable. Law & Order was usually really good at replacing people but they did have a few bumps with replacing Adam with Nora, Lennie with Fontana, and Cassidy. They just didn't work out.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree Adam was irreplaceable. Law & Order was usually really good at replacing people but they did have a few bumps with replacing Adam with Nora, Lennie with Fontana, and Cassidy. They just didn't work out.

This is one reason why I am very intrigued as to how new DA Nicholas Baxter does as Jack’s replacement - Jack is arguably the show’s most iconic character, and it’s very hard to replace a legend - as shown by how Nora wasn’t a great replacement for Adam and Fontana was no Lennie. L&O got very fortunate that they hit a home run with Sam/Jack replacing Moriarty/Stone, who was awesome in his own right. I hope Baxter is a strong character, Tony Goldwyn is a good actor and hopefully he’ll add some intrigue and a spark into the legal part, but there’s no replacing Jack McCoy. 

[shapeshifter]

5 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

This is one reason why I am very intrigued as to how new DA Nicholas Baxter does as Jack’s replacement - Jack is arguably the show’s most iconic character, and it’s very hard to replace a legend - as shown by how Nora wasn’t a great replacement for Adam and Fontana was no Lennie. L&O got very fortunate that they hit a home run with Sam/Jack replacing Moriarty/Stone, who was awesome in his own right. I hope Baxter is a strong character, Tony Goldwyn is a good actor and hopefully he’ll add some intrigue and a spark into the legal part, but there’s no replacing Jack McCoy. 

The transition from Jack to the new DA should be helped by Jack's role having been reduced to a line or two in the reboot (with the exception of Sam Waterston's extended final appearance in 23.5, "Last Dance," 2024).

[Xeliou66]

6 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

The transition from Jack to the new DA should be helped by Jack's role having been reduced to a line or two in the reboot (with the exception of Sam Waterston's extended final appearance in 23.5, "Last Dance," 2024).

I agree that it will be easier to adjust to a new DA given that Jack had a reduced role in the revival, but still, Jack McCoy is a living legend and there’s no replacing him - he was still an essential part of the show even in the revival. I do like that it sounds like Baxter will be different from Jack and more similar to Adam and Arthur, but I’m still nervous about him - hopefully he’ll have more success than Nora did replacing Adam or Fontana did replacing Lennie.