S02.E13: Fair Weather Friends

[amarante]

1 hour ago, princelina said:

 

As a rule, congregations have a budget and the pastor's salary is part of that budget.  It is based on yearly expenses, and some churches have "pledges" at the end of a year (people fill out a card estimating their weekly/monthly giving for the next year) to help in planning.  Based on what we've seen/heard about Mary's church they could probably only actually afford a part-time pastor if they were doing things properly.  Things like housing in the budget/pastor's salary will differ based on where you live and how much houses cost, etc, and are not necessarily "meager" because they have to live in the community.  In the case of my current pastor, they host newcomer luncheons a couple weekends a month, youth group and other groups and while their house is not luxurious, it has a nice dining and family room and yard for those things.  Those preachers you mentioned like Joel Osteen with giant megachurches and tv shows have gotten that way by preaching things people want to hear - "sow this seed and God will reward you".  It sounds to me like Mary's preaching is more along the lines of "Give to me or go to hell" which does not seem to be the ticket for creating a huge popular church 😄. Things like pastor's insurance is typically also in the church budget/salary package.  Having parishioners over to do maid/handyman work at the pastor's house, or mortgaging their houses to pay for surgeries, is something I've never heard of and I've been involved in proper Christian churches for all of my 54 years!  From what I recall, Mary's grandma had money by owning businesses that were not church related (that explains that mysterious house in Indiana, where I think she came from originally 😄 ). I wonder if she was rich first and then decided what she needed was followers, so she started up that little church afterwards.  And then it's one thing for them to know she's rich, assume she's been "specially blessed" and come clean her house - it's a whole other thing to have Mary on tv, showing off her hoarding closets, with the prices of the gifts she gives her wealthy girlfriends, and wonder why on earth you mortgaged your house to pay her bills!

 

Based on what I can decipher from a 1998 article the Faith Temple Church "owns" all of that stuff which is why there was a battle between the grandmother's children and Robert her SECOND husband when she died in 1998. Robert was claiming that the Church owned all of the property and I am assuming the children were claiming they were actually part of the grandmother's estate.

https://www.deseret.com/1998/8/4/19394703/faith-temple-rift-spills-into-court

It would explain why Mary wound up marrying Robert and cutting ties with her mother since the mother would have been one of the children of the first marriage who were suing Robert and the Church. 

Marrying Mary would have cemented the followers of the Church as the lawsuit was evidently causing a real schism among the church membership and Robert could have produced Mary as being the true and holy descendant of the grandmother who would now lead the Church. Obviously marrying the mother would have been out of the question.

Whether Mary was "groomed" for this from an early age or whether it was decided as part of the struggle in 1998 over assets of the church - who knows?

At any rate, Mary is an awful person but I think she is also genuinely extremely damaged psychologically and probably has had no experience with actual non-transactional human relationships. She seems as if she didn't have much experience dealing with people in any kind of normal manner and I also think she spent a lot of time isolated in her home - probably buying stuff and hoarding it. That statement that the more she owns the better she feels or the bigger her heart (can't remember exactly) was very telling. In some ways, she reminds me of the way that Mary Trump (a psychologist) dissected her uncle's personality disorder as also having spent his years essentially not dealing with people in any kind of normal manner and so not ever having a reality check in terms of his  emotional and intellectual dysfunction.

Also based on the number of congregants it doesn't seem as if Mary could possibly be getting enough money from the membership legitimately - e.g. without fleecing them in the way that she extorted money from Cameron. The churches which have the mega rich pastors like Osteen have 10,.000 or more congregants with huge congregations and buildings like Schindler's Crystal Cathedral. Many of them also have some form of television or other big media presence to further bilk the gullible.

Edited December 14, 2021 by amarante

[Chatty Cake]

People that are more attached to their stuff vs people, could use a good pastor or shrink. They shouldn’t be the pastor that provides counsel to others.  
Is there a market for Real Housewives skin care and beauty? I hope the Whitney is exaggerating about how much she is spending on the rebrand. 
There was no need to show gross Jennie and her brat daughter shoving food in their mouths. The restaurant manager showed restraint as that bratty obnoxious kid critiqued her. 
Someone convinced Coach to do that scene with Jen. It felt so forced and her tears were missing from the crying. Jen looks like a cartoon villain in some of her talking heads. 

[JenE4]

8 hours ago, amarante said:

Based on what I can decipher from a 1998 article the Faith Temple Church "owns" all of that stuff which is why there was a battle between the grandmother's children and Robert her SECOND husband when she died in 1998. Robert was claiming that the Church owned all of the property and I am assuming the children were claiming they were actually part of the grandmother's estate.

https://www.deseret.com/1998/8/4/19394703/faith-temple-rift-spills-into-court

It would explain why Mary wound up marrying Robert and cutting ties with her mother since the mother would have been one of the children of the first marriage who were suing Robert and the Church. 

Marrying Mary would have cemented the followers of the Church as the lawsuit was evidently causing a real schism among the church membership and Robert could have produced Mary as being the true and holy descendant of the grandmother who would now lead the Church. Obviously marrying the mother would have been out of the question.

Whether Mary was "groomed" for this from an early age or whether it was decided as part of the struggle in 1998 over assets of the church - who knows?

At any rate, Mary is an awful person but I think she is also genuinely extremely damaged psychologically and probably has had no experience with actual non-transactional human relationships. She seems as if she didn't have much experience dealing with people in any kind of normal manner and I also think she spent a lot of time isolated in her home - probably buying stuff and hoarding it. That statement that the more she owns the better she feels or the bigger her heart (can't remember exactly) was very telling. In some ways, she reminds me of the way that Mary Trump (a psychologist) dissected her uncle's personality disorder as also having spent his years essentially not dealing with people in any kind of normal manner and so not ever having a reality check in terms of his  emotional and intellectual dysfunction.

Also based on the number of congregants it doesn't seem as if Mary could possibly be getting enough money from the membership legitimately - e.g. without fleecing them in the way that she extorted money from Cameron. The churches which have the mega rich pastors like Osteen have 10,.000 or more congregants with huge congregations and buildings like Schindler's Crystal Cathedral. Many of them also have some form of television or other big media presence to further bilk the gullible.

Thank you for the comprehensive research! I thought this quote from the article was very interesting since there’s debate on whether the congregation thinks Mary is God: 

 Redmon questioned the evangelist's statement that she [Mary’s grandmother] had been sent by God to Salt Lake City.

"I was really skeptical until one time when I heard her pray. She prayed until God stood up in her place. From that time, on, I stayed with her," said Redmon, 83.

So to me this sounds like rather than preaching the word of God, they preach until God itself is channeled through their bodies, or so the congregation believes?

[bosawks]

2 hours ago, Chatty Cake said:

People that are more attached to their stuff vs people, could use a good pastor or shrink. They shouldn’t be the pastor that provides counsel to others.  
Is there a market for Real Housewives skin care and beauty? I hope the Whitney is exaggerating about how much she is spending on the rebrand. 
There was no need to show gross Jennie and her brat daughter shoving food in their mouths. The restaurant manager showed restraint as that bratty obnoxious kid critiqued her. 
Someone convinced Coach to do that scene with Jen. It felt so forced and her tears were missing from the crying. Jen looks like a cartoon villain in some of her talking heads. 

At least he got his Popeye's....

[Baltimore Betty]

6 hours ago, Chatty Cake said:

People that are more attached to their stuff vs people, could use a good pastor or shrink. They shouldn’t be the pastor that provides counsel to others.  
Is there a market for Real Housewives skin care and beauty? I hope the Whitney is exaggerating about how much she is spending on the rebrand. 
There was no need to show gross Jennie and her brat daughter shoving food in their mouths. The restaurant manager showed restraint as that bratty obnoxious kid critiqued her. 
Someone convinced Coach to do that scene with Jen. It felt so forced and her tears were missing from the crying. Jen looks like a cartoon villain in some of her talking heads. 

I want to like Jennie so much, I really do but I am just not liking her very much...is her daughter the only person that will film with her?  Which of the other HW's brought her in the the fold, won't they film one on one with her?  That restaurant manager was very nice, way nicer than I would have been, lol.

A million dollars to rebrand something? Maybe she has to buy out a contract? I doubt this skin care line is nothing more than from a company that makes products for people to sell with their own labels, you know specifically to the HW's market for vanity businesses.

[Ms.Lulu]

I hated the Chipotle placement in this week's episode.  I'll eat a Chipotle bowl here and there, but that kid clearly wasn't enjoying it (amount of leftovers) and it felt really forced.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Ms.Lulu

[Ms.Lulu]

Argh, And now a Popeyes placement.  At least we know Coach really likes Popeyes.

[SweetieDarling]

I had to laugh at Lisa bragging about having ridden horses since she was 4, and then had absolutely no clue what to do while on one. Wasn't she also the one bragging about how she drives a Porsche at the racetrack, only to drive as if it were an active school zone?

[amarante]

12 minutes ago, SweetieDarling said:

I had to laugh at Lisa bragging about having ridden horses since she was 4, and then had absolutely no clue what to do while on one. Wasn't she also the one bragging about how she drives a Porsche at the racetrack, only to drive as if it were an active school zone?

What I found utterly bizarre is that they were riding Western trained horses who you neck rein and yet they were holding the reins in both hands as one does with English trained horses.

And Meredith (I think) was attempting to post to the trot in a Western saddle. I am not a Western equestrienne as I rode English but did ride Western a small amount and as I recall you "sit" to the trot on a western saddle by kind of loosening your lower back. It would be impossible to post properly in a western saddle because you don't post from the stirrups - you actually learn how to post without stirrups to do it properly in English style - cross the stirrups over the front is a basic part of a lesson.

[ichbin]

I can't help but wonder if one of the reasons Jen's legal team quit this past summer had to do with her badly using filming in an attempt to make herself look like a victim. It seems they were already in a tough spot which she couldn't be helping judging by what we've seen so far.

Mary...she obviously sees no problem reconciling her religious position with her lifestyle...and that is a HUGE problem.  She seems like pretty much just and awful person overall.

Please, please let us be spared any more scenes with Jennie's daughter. I cannot stand kids like that, nor the parent's who inflict them upon others.  Precocious = Obnoxious!

Lisa, shut up.

[amarante]

7 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Thank you for the comprehensive research! I thought this quote from the article was very interesting since there’s debate on whether the congregation thinks Mary is God: 

 Redmon questioned the evangelist's statement that she [Mary’s grandmother] had been sent by God to Salt Lake City.

"I was really skeptical until one time when I heard her pray. She prayed until God stood up in her place. From that time, on, I stayed with her," said Redmon, 83.

So to me this sounds like rather than preaching the word of God, they preach until God itself is channeled through their bodies, or so the congregation believes?

The Daily Beast has an excellent article exposing Mary's church and goes into great detail in terms of the history of the Church and her marriage and some of the financial stuff. I had previously posted the entire article in the Mary thread but since Mary has addressed the issue of her feeling she is "god" in this episode I will post this excerpt here. 

For context, this is discussed how Mary and Robert terrorize congregants by telling them they decide who goes to heaven and hell. Even the most fire breathing fundamentalist preacher doesn't assert this "direct" line to god but preaches that behavior will cause god to send one to hell and that it isn't within the preacher's power to actually do that. 

FWIW, Robert is evidently not the doddering background figure that is depicted on the show but if anything is more "evil" and conniving than Mary who seems hapless. She reminds me of female evangelic figures like ice Semple McPherson who are groomed to "believe" in their own powers and exploited to represent an attractive figurehead. Somewhat like Mary being able to portray herself as "Mary" the Christian archetype while Robert held the power. I could be wrong but I just don't think Mary is smart enough to actually control the kind of large company with all its holdings that the "Church" actually is. I think she is left to do her thing - brought out to preach and allowed to spend all the money she wants while also being isolated from any kind of normal human contact. 

“Mary is trying to convince people that she’s God, or like this special mediator,” the ex male member explains. “That she has power that she can talk to God and she can decide where you’re going [heaven or hell]. Mary tries to equate herself to like a female Jesus.”

In an audio recording from one of Cosby’s sermons, Cosby tells the congregation, “You don’t just walk up back in here. You got to go through the door… For there’s one God, and one mediator between God and man. Who do you think that is?” A congregation member appears to call out, “You, Mary!”

“I don’t know, I ain’t say it,” Cosby responds. “But you ain’t coming back unless you come through me, I know that. I know the father, honey, and he comes to me.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rhoslcs-mary-cosby-is-accused-of-running-a-religious-cult-by-former-congregation-members

Edited December 14, 2021 by amarante

[ichbin]

1 hour ago, amarante said:

FWIW, Robert is evidently not the doddering background figure that is depicted on the show but if anything is more "evil" and conniving than Mary who seems hapless. She reminds me of female evangelic figures like ice Semple McPherson who are groomed to "believe" in their own powers and exploited to represent an attractive figurehead. Somewhat like Mary being able to portray herself as "Mary" the Christian archetype while Robert held the power. I could be wrong but I just don't think Mary is smart enough to actually control the kind of large company with all its holdings that the "Church" actually is. I think she is left to do her thing - brought out to preach and allowed to spend all the money she wants while also being isolated from any kind of normal human contact. 

FWIW, I think you're probably right.  She doesn't seem savvy enough be able to hold the strings. Even if that is so, it in now way excuses her behavior toward others which has been shown several times to be despicable.   Grandpa though?  Considering what we do know of his background I can believe that he could have been fully involved in determining the future of the holdings once Grandma was gone. I noticed he went straight to the race card when Mary complained about the others questioning her church involvement.  

[amarante]

12 minutes ago, ichbin said:

FWIW, I think you're probably right.  She doesn't seem savvy enough be able to hold the strings. Even if that is so, it in now way excuses her behavior toward others which has been shown several times to be despicable.   Grandpa though?  Considering what we do know of his background I can believe that he could have been fully involved in determining the future of the holdings once Grandma was gone. I noticed he went straight to the race card when Mary complained about the others questioning her church involvement.  

Mary is a horrible person no doubt about that. I didn't mean to seem as if I were portraying her as a sympathetic victim of circumstances.

I think her grandmother in conjunction with Robert Sr. were the "brains" behind structuring the profitable financial schemes.

No doubt the marriage was done to ensure that Robert Sr remained in power by marrying a pliable "virgin" that could act as the figurehead for the suckers.

Elmer Gantry was written in 1926 but still is an accurate satire of the American fundamentalists and their preying on the gullible - only the media has changed since they would do their revivals in a tent and maybe have a radio broadcast. 

[TheCouchPotato]

After Coach Shah does his prayer, he picks up an already eaten chicken bone. Totally get it. You just can’t wait when it comes to Popeyes. 

[ichbin]

54 minutes ago, amarante said:

Mary is a horrible person no doubt about that. I didn't mean to seem as if I were portraying her as a sympathetic victim of circumstances

It seems I didn't phrase things properly.  I didn't think you meant to convey that at all.  

[tvfanatic13]

4 hours ago, TheCouchPotato said:

After Coach Shah does his prayer, he picks up an already eaten chicken bone. Totally get it. You just can’t wait when it comes to Popeyes. 

I noticed that too. I assumed that they reshot the scene. 

[howiveaddict]

7 hours ago, ichbin said:

 

Please, please let us be spared any more scenes with Jennie's daughter. I cannot stand kids like that, nor the parent's who inflict them upon others.  Precocious = Obnoxious!

Lisa, shut up.

Speaking of LIsa, and precocious  kids,, does she believe that we believe that her boys, on their own, came up with Fresh Wolf, planned a fund raiser, and decided the guest list.  

[ichbin]

51 minutes ago, howiveaddict said:

Speaking of LIsa, and precocious  kids,, does she believe that we believe that her boys, on their own, came up with Fresh Wolf, planned a fund raiser, and decided the guest list.  

Lisa seems to use her kids as props to make herself look good, and well, I guess Jennie does also to a degree, but  I think Jenny actually thinks her kid's precociousness is a delight enjoyed by all adults.  Lisa's boys come across a bit rehearsed and awkward, where Jennie's daughter seems all too comfortable as though her outspokenness is both natural and encouraged both on screen and off.  

[Bluesky]

On 12/12/2021 at 9:59 PM, MerBearStare said:

Mary is a truly fucked up person. A psychiatrist would have a field day with her.

I think Lisa hates Whitney so much because she thinks Whitney is stupid but she's continuously getting outsmarted by Whitney and it angers her.

I feel for Jen's family members who had guns pulled on them by law enforcement that day. As young black men, they were in real danger. But there was one person responsible for putting them in that position and that person was Jen, so she can miss me with her tears. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - my loyalty to my friends ends with federal indictments (fortunately I don't hang out with scumbags, so that hasn't been an issue so far). If Jen were smart, she would have stopped filming as soon as she was arrested. But she went on this show knowing she was doing something illegal, so it's not surprising she didn't stop.

Her family members weren’t in danger, it wasn’t like a normal police encounter with beat cops who freak out easily. She was indicted by a jury who probably had to sit through a lot of evidence before indicting her.  And they do these SWAT looking  raid routinely if the person is a flight risk and other reasons.   
 

Her husband might have been conned by Jen like everyone else.  She probably gave him a story about ,what a successful businesswoman she is and lied about how she made her money.  

On 12/13/2021 at 1:23 AM, SemiCharmedLife said:

OMG!  Jen, true to form, is playing the victim card.  SHE is the one responsible for the trauma her family is undergoing.  I guess we shouldn't expect anything different from a narcissist.  

She’s deflecting, hoping people forget what this is all about and focus on the bully cops. 

[Bluesky]

I read some of the cases.  Mary’s grandmother owned several properties and small businesses along with the church.  Her second husband now Mary’s husband was accused of forging grandma’s signature transferring the properties to him right before or around her death.  He was found by a jury to be guilty of at least one forgery. A handwriting expert said all four deeds were forged.   Once properties were transferred to him, he took out hundreds of thousands of dollars in mortgages.    

He’s a real piece of shit and I couldn’t tell if the case is even resolved yet, 20 years later.  Mary married him for money and the two thieves get along great.  

[Baltimore Betty]

7 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I read some of the cases.  Mary’s grandmother owned several properties and small businesses along with the church.  Her second husband now Mary’s husband was accused of forging grandma’s signature transferring the properties to him right before or around her death.  He was found by a jury to be guilty of at least one forgery. A handwriting expert said all four deeds were forged.   Once properties were transferred to him, he took out hundreds of thousands of dollars in mortgages.    

He’s a real piece of shit and I couldn’t tell if the case is even resolved yet, 20 years later.  Mary married him for money and the two thieves get along great.  

Really??? Holy cow! 

I just do not understand how that marriage works, how is he not doing funny stuff with the money now? I am guessing neither one trusts the other. 

 

12 hours ago, howiveaddict said:

Speaking of LIsa, and precocious  kids,, does she believe that we believe that her boys, on their own, came up with Fresh Wolf, planned a fund raiser, and decided the guest list.  

None of their friends were there, that is the first thing you do when you are hosting a fundraiser, invite your friends who then feel obligated to donate something...Lisa should be ashamed of herself for using her kids like that.

[b2H]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:38 PM, Keywestclubkid said:

Lisa girl calm down … this reaction seems super over the top. 

This is Lisa’s defense mechanism when she is caught in her crap.  She gets all hysterical and hyperventilating to deflect from the fact that she has been caught.

[FlyingEgret]

I am so desperate to fall asleep tonight I actually tried counting Lisa Barlows - as you can see from the time stamp of this post, it didnt work. Shocking. Maybe I should call 1 or 6 of my lawyers instead...

[KateHearts]

On 12/13/2021 at 6:18 AM, JenE4 said:

Mary has no mother to show her love (since she usurped the throne of the church from her) so she has “bonded” with tacky yet expensive clothing and accessories? I mean, the bond to any one item must be pretty tentative if you’re constantly buying more. Where is the money to buy all of this stuff coming from if not from the congregation of your church?!? I mean, isn’t that why most religions the head of the church leads a meager, pious life because the only money coming into the church is from the parishioners, and they use that money primarily to help the less fortunate? As an agnostic (aka atheist but not pushy about it), I probably know less about the inner-workings of a church than I do launching a beauty brand, but these are all common sense practices, right?

Most churches require a lot of money to maintain the large physical building, provide a modest salary for the minister (often including the rectory- housing), and often programs for the local poor (soup kitchen, outreach, etc). The wealthy preachers you see on TV (including Mary) are wealthy because they are huge business conglomerates with sponsors and people who donate large amounts.  I went to a church where a very wealthy local socialite donated large amounts (although she rarely attended). I'm sure her donations helped a great deal in paying the bills. The minister, however, lived a very spartan life. He did have a family home in Canada, but no designer clothes or expensive cars. The bills at the church (fixing the organ, electricity, etc) were hefty.

When I watch these women argue and go round and around about "loyalty," etc, my head starts to hurt. They never get anywhere and all they do is talk over one another and tattle on each other. It's exhausting. I realize it's for TV, but they really aren't helping their images. And I always wonder when I watch what the husbands are thinking: "Well, there goes my career."  Does the University of Utah really want to continue to employ coach Shah now? What does Whitney's husband do? He's a bad actor, by the way. He was smirking/smiling the entire time she basically told him that she had spent their savings and taken out a huge line of credit. "Ooops! I'm bad with money."

[Rlb8031]

1 hour ago, KateHearts said:

Most churches require a lot of money to maintain the large physical building, provide a modest salary for the minister (often including the rectory- housing), and often programs for the local poor (soup kitchen, outreach, etc). The wealthy preachers you see on TV (including Mary) are wealthy because they are huge business conglomerates with sponsors and people who donate large amounts.  I went to a church where a very wealthy local socialite donated large amounts (although she rarely attended). I'm sure her donations helped a great deal in paying the bills. The minister, however, lived a very spartan life. He did have a family home in Canada, but no designer clothes or expensive cars. The bills at the church (fixing the organ, electricity, etc) were hefty.

What you are describing is how a functional church should operate, not how a dysfunctional scam works. I'd be shocked if Mary's church had any outreach programs that catered to anyone other than Mary and members of the church. The prosperity preachers don't go in big for acts of charity that don't directly impact them. Its amazing how many churches have ladies guild, men's guild, youth ministry, etc. and don't do much more in the way of charity than take the alter flowers to members homes Sunday afternoon. My guess, they have a bunch of people tithing significant amounts of their annual income, they are getting services and in kind donations (such as housekeeping, auto repair, gardening/landscaping, etc.) and the combination of those two things allow for Mary to live a nice life with little to no expenses. She spends the money as a way to fill that very large hole in her heart that has resulted from this giant scam.