S08.E04: Armageddon, Part 4

[Trini]

Barry is shocked when Eobard Thawne returns in the most unexpected way, and with a tie to a loved one. Damien Darhk (guest star Neal McDonough) offers advice to Barry but there is a catch. An epic battle begins with Reverse Flash pitted against The Flash, Team Flash, Batwoman (guest star Javicia Leslie), Sentinel (guest star Chyler Leigh) and Ryan Choi (guest star Osric Chau).

Chad Lowe directed the episode written by Lauren Barnet.

Airdate: 12/7/2021

[scarynikki12]

Sophie and Ryan are married in this version of the future? I'm still mad they didn't go the Big/Little sis route with them ::pouts:: 

Chester's wig is bad. Next time just do a temporary dye y'all.

So Thawne rewrote history and made himself The Flash. I assume the book from Crisis that made everyone think Lex was really a good guy was involved?

Ryan and Sara are pals in this future. I hope that continues when things get fixed. Don't care that Nate's dead but pour one out for the rest.

Yep, Thawne really is doing this because Barry is faster. The man is so petty but it's in character. Seriously, Barry, just kill him when this is over. No more letting him live because "Heroes don't kill" is your bullshit mantra.

Damien Darhk is still alive I this timeline which is fine with me cause he's fun. Smart of Barry to act the villain to get help against Thawne.

As far as the Iris relationship, this is a misstep. They should have brought Eddie back and have Thawne be The Flash. Iris showed ZERO interest in any version of Thawne or the Wellses so I don't buy that a timeline change (without some kind of mind control) makes her fall for him. But bringing Eddie back to be Iris' love while both being part of Thawne's Team Flash would have made more sense.

No surprise that Darhk figured it out within a few scenes. Looks like Wally telling Barry about Beebo's Greatest Day will get Darhk on the real Team Flash.

I hope Iris and Ryan are still friends when Barry fixes things.

Alex may have good intentions but she needs to not meddle in people's lives. She was ready to let Lex destroy the world in the Supergirl finale to get her kid back so her judgement is terrible.

Darhk is a pretty good mentor and his love speech is one of the better ones the show has done. Of course, it's entirely possible that Neal's talent is elevating the usual dreck they like to write. Either way I'm into it.

I'd feel more about Ryan Choi's love fear if I hadn't seen his devotion to his wife and baby during Crisis. 

Of course a speech from Barry convinces Iris even though she believes he's the bad guy.

No on asked to see Frost or her boyfriend.

Yeah this Chester/Allegra love declaration is beyond awkward. Also they spent way too much time on them this episode.

Aww, Ryan's wearing his Atom suit!

Yeah there's still another episode so Barry can't have fully fixed everything. At least Joe's alive again!

And Thawne managed to follow Barry. Of fucking course. Please kill him next episode. I don't care who does it.  Have a piano fall on his head while he's monologuing. 

[Primal Slayer]

This turned cringe real fast.

Bringing everything back to love like it was some Disney film...."You saved the entire universe with Love" "I'm afraid of Love" "I love my wife" ....this show has started to become more of a fanfic than an actual show and that comes from someone whose always been fine with romance in the Arrowverse. 

Trying to build up this "epic" Allegra/Chester romance was.....IS a waste. Its been 10 years since they shared a passionate night and have been pining after one another ever since but neither wants to make the move so they just stay single for their entire lives and never move on....but wait...Allegra has to tell Alex that Chester stood her up so Alex has to waltz into the lab and go all "WHY DID YOU GHOST ALLEGRA 10 YEARS AGO!".....girl...it was 10 years ago. 

I'm not sure what they love so much about Damien that he's been around for the past 6 years, maybe they are just really big fans that he killed Laurel, but even Damien has been used to death even if I do enjoy the actor, but so again so has Thawne yet here we are. But they couldnt come up with a better way to depower Damien? They had to use Constantine off screen as a lousy excuse? 

Has Ryan not been The Atom this entire time? Please dont tell me that he just suited up. 

Have I mentioned how played out Thawne is? All of this is just so played out.

Thus far the only big highlight is as always...seeing different characters from different shows interact with one another.

[shantown]

6 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

As far as the Iris relationship, this is a misstep. They should have brought Eddie back and have Thawne be The Flash. Iris showed ZERO interest in any version of Thawne or the Wellses so I don't buy that a timeline change (without some kind of mind control) makes her fall for him. But bringing Eddie back to be Iris' love while both being part of Thawne's Team Flash would have made more sense.

This would have been a WAY better storyline if it was Eddie. One, he was Iris' other true love so that part would have actually made sense and I would have bought that they were actually in love. And we haven't seen him recently, so it would have been way more impactful for him to show up then to be stuck with Thawne again. Agreed that Barry actually needs to kill him this time, they keep trying to bring him back for every storyline and it just nerfs the effectiveness of a Big Bad.
 

5 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Thus far the only big highlight is as always...seeing different characters from different shows interact with one another.

This is normally my favorite part. I get that this was an alternate timeline but everyone was just so weirdly out of character that I couldn't appreciate all the interactions. Chester and Allegra are suddenly some epic love? Alex is friends with any of them? Ryan Choi is there at all? 

At least Grant got to do some happy crying at the end!

[Primal Slayer]

I did laugh at them trying to have these characters make Buffy-like quips during their fight scenes. Alex slowing down Barry and him being all "why did you do that" and Batwoman going "so I can do this" *jumps dramatically up in the air in slow motion and punches Barry*

And dont even get me started on that "finishing" move they gave to Chillblaine when he was fighting Damien and missed.

[bettername2come]

Okay, this was the best episode in years. First of all, the plot was good, high stakes and had Thawne level up in terms of being a successful child murderer and marrying a woman he once sent Nazis after. He's a psychotic villain and he and Barry have such amazing chemistry when they go toe-to-toe. Speaking of chemistry, everybody played off each other pretty well and made me believe these characters had a history we'd never seen. Ryan and Iris had great chemistry. Can Iris have a female best friend now? Can they stay in contact? I liked them so much. She only gets to have these friendships in rare crossovers, like when she went parading around the multiverse with Lois and Clark or worked with Felicity to fight Nazis and save Supergirl. 

Damien Darhk and Barry Allen working together. They had terrific chemistry. Neal McDonough is just delightful in everything he's in. I love how Barry got through to him by telling him he saved Nora in his world. I like how much he loves her and that he has just that tiny bit of honor when it comes to her. And did they seriously never have the "you have a daughter named Nora? me too!" conversation? I'd been waiting for that. 

I appreciated the irony of Alex telling the Paragon of Humanity he was missing out on the best parts of being human. And I'm sorry he doesn't seem to have his wife and kid he mentioned in his first appearance. Stupid Thawne, ruining destinies for everyone. I'm glad he got the suit and everything, but this ten-year delay makes everything so confusing. 

Here's the thing - I like Allegra and Chester just fine, but as a cute little "pair the spares" kind of thing. Not every love story is epic. But they're more epic than Frost and Chillblaine, I'll give 'em that. 

And they brought Joe back not to hear a single word from Jesse L. Martin? Seriously? He's credited, they couldn't have him record a "Hey, Bear" to end the episode? Hell, loop in previous dialogue, I miss him! And I miss Cisco enough that killing him off in an alternate timeline offscreen elicited a "NO!" from me. 

[Oreo2234]

It was weird that Alex and Ryan were used to prop a Allegra and Chester romance in a timeline that is going to be erased anyways. 

Did the writers forget Ryan Choi had a wife and child or did Thawne somehow erase them?

Alex and Ryan Wilder's fight with Barry was pretty good. I wouldn't mind seeing them team up again on Batwoman. 

I loved Damien Darhk's scenes. Neal McDonough is always fantastic in the role. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Oreo2234

[cambridgeguy]

Roy Harper may be gone but Chillblaine has taken up the mantle of somersaulting all over the place during a fight.

They really didn't want to pay JLM for this episode, did they?  You'd think his resurrection would warrant an appearance.

I guess Mary was right about Batwoman taking her for granted if Iris was Ryan's maid of honor.  Or maybe she's dead like Cisco and the Legends.  I guess it doesn't matter since all of that should have been wiped out when Barry undid the timeline changes. 

And even if he doesn't kill him maybe this time Barry will finally learn that taunting Thawne before just letting him run off is a 10 on the stupid scale. 

[KaveDweller]

I really liked most of the episode, but I feel like I didn't know who half the people were. I guess from shows they do crossovers with, but do they really expect me to remember them all when I don't regularly watch?

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, bettername2come said:

Okay, this was the best episode in years. First of all, the plot was good, high stakes and had Thawne level up in terms of being a successful child murderer and marrying a woman he once sent Nazis after. He's a psychotic villain and he and Barry have such amazing chemistry when they go toe-to-toe. Speaking of chemistry, everybody played off each other pretty well and made me believe these characters had a history we'd never seen. Ryan and Iris had great chemistry. Can Iris have a female best friend now? Can they stay in contact? I liked them so much. She only gets to have these friendships in rare crossovers, like when she went parading around the multiverse with Lois and Clark or worked with Felicity to fight Nazis and save Supergirl. 

Damien Darhk and Barry Allen working together. They had terrific chemistry. Neal McDonough is just delightful in everything he's in. I love how Barry got through to him by telling him he saved Nora in his world. I like how much he loves her and that he has just that tiny bit of honor when it comes to her. And did they seriously never have the "you have a daughter named Nora? me too!" conversation? I'd been waiting for that. 

I appreciated the irony of Alex telling the Paragon of Humanity he was missing out on the best parts of being human. And I'm sorry he doesn't seem to have his wife and kid he mentioned in his first appearance. Stupid Thawne, ruining destinies for everyone. I'm glad he got the suit and everything, but this ten-year delay makes everything so confusing. 

Here's the thing - I like Allegra and Chester just fine, but as a cute little "pair the spares" kind of thing. Not every love story is epic. But they're more epic than Frost and Chillblaine, I'll give 'em that. 

And they brought Joe back not to hear a single word from Jesse L. Martin? Seriously? He's credited, they couldn't have him record a "Hey, Bear" to end the episode? Hell, loop in previous dialogue, I miss him! And I miss Cisco enough that killing him off in an alternate timeline offscreen elicited a "NO!" from me. 

I'm with you.  This was the best Flash episode in like FOREVER.  At least 2 seasons - basically since Eric W took over.  I was stressed a LOT during this episode and I know RF is overused but he's terrifying for a reason - because he hits Barry emotionally in a way no one else can (except maybe Hunter) - but I kept worrying Barry wouldn't be able to overcome this - and even if he did that RF would live to fight another day and wreak havoc.  

In the back of my mind is a comic story with RF where he does the unthinkable and that fear was a low current for me this whole episode.

I'm still mad at Cecile for her actions last week though - even though that's been erased now - but naw my hatred remains, lol.

Chester and Allegra took up too much time for me - I wished we got more WestThawne scenes.  And I felt Alex and Ryan propping Chellegra up was a waste.

I truly enjoyed Damien Dahrk - that was SO good and that actor (forgot his name) is SO compelling.  I loved every scene he was in and I even loved his pep talk to Barry - that was so well done - like you, I can't tell if it was just written so much better or if he delivered it so well it just worked.

And of course - WestAllen - finally this show did right by them.  I knew when Thawne told Iris to shoot Barry, she'd know in her spirit something wasn't right and she did!  And Thawne getting out that shocked and weak "Iris ..." when she shot him was GOLD.  I admit I have to laugh at Tom Cavenaugh finally getting the WestThawne pairing he's been advocating for for years! LOL.  Apparently he said in an interview somewhere that he played all of the Wells and RF instances around Iris like Eobard has a crush on her.  Not sure he's done that from the beginning but it made me chuckle.  Anyway - loved all of this and the scream of frustration I let out when Barry was in the middle of expressing his feelings to Iris before he ran off and maybe died and Eobard showed up - aaaarrrgh... but then Barry went right on with his speech... then Iris heard him when he was in the Speed Force... and we gat the WestAllen montage ... awwww.  And I felt that speedhug at the end too - though - what is up with EVERY couple on this show getting to kiss except WestAllen?  We haven't seen them kiss since before the pandemic! Right?

But still for me a great episode.  The stakes were insane, the drama was high - Alex and Ryan kicking Barry's @ss was epic, lol.

Oh - also LOVED Iris getting a friend in Ryan - the two are friends in real life and that definitely seeped through onscreen - great chemistry.  Loved them soo much.  I hope we get to see more of that friendship as we go.  Iris needs real friends.  Not people who report to her at work - true friends.  Because given how Chester and Caitlin joined up with Cecile after she attacked Iris last week, those folks ain't loyal.  Honestly they've been proving that season after season.

So - a few nitpicky points - but loved this episode in a way I haven't in soooo long.  Finally a big buildup to a climax that doesn't wimp out like in the last couple of seasons.

[Lantern7]

Once again: Eobard Thawne ruins EVERYTHING. On the bright side . . . if you need a reason for Despero to travel ten years into the past because he thought Barry Allen was destroying the world? Then it's a great twist.

I'm just going to try and ignore the 2031 scenes in terms of stuff that will happen. Ryan and Sophie wouldn't have to wind up together. Also . . . wasn't Ryan- . . .Male Ryan . . . married with a kid in COIE? Maybe that was Thawne meddling.  He does that oh-so-well. The costume swap was also funny. Somehow, Barry makes the yellow bodysuit work.

Coming in for the unexpected assist . . .Damien Dahrk! I don't remember being fond of him in Arrow, but the extra snark helped in Legends of Tomorrow. He paved the way for Tobias and Alice . . . killing people in horrible ways while making me laugh. This time, he was outdone by the premise of Barry Allen pretending to be evil.

One more chapter to go. Please please please PLEASE let this be the end of Reverse Flash.

PS:  Chester called him "Captain EO." I've had that in my head for years. Thanks, Chester!

PPS: Anyone else up for murdering Chillsblane in the present so he doesn't exist in the future? He's such a waste.

[Trini]

More comments later; but I'm glad that grant and Candice, in particular, found acting again, no idea what happened last week.

Would have expected more scenes with Eobard, and Iris, and Ryan Choi. I like Chester and Allegra, but I didn't really care about their love story when the stakes were so high in the A-plot.

Yes, it's a different timeline, but it was weird how Ryan Choi was written so differently than his last appearance, when everyone else was pretty much the same.

WestAllen kissing ban still in effect for Season 8, I see. Most everything else with them worked for me, though.

Overall enjoyed this one; Barry and Darkh (Gustin/McDonough) made a surprisingly good duo.

[cambridgeguy]

9 hours ago, phoenics said:

And I felt that speedhug at the end too - though - what is up with EVERY couple on this show getting to kiss except WestAllen?  We haven't seen them kiss since before the pandemic! Right?

Already forgotten the end of last season when they literally ended the episode with the camera spinning around them as Barry and Iris kissed in Flashtime?  If they had really wanted to twist the knife Thawne and Iris would have kissed at some point.

By the way, at the end did it seem like TC could barely move in the RF suit?  He was waddling like a penguin.

Edited December 8, 2021 by cambridgeguy

[dmeets]

So glad we spent 10 minutes on everyone discussing Allegra and "Chuck"'s epic romance and Ryan Choi's lack thereof when it all gets erased anyways. I hope this angsty shit doesn't bleed into the present day.

Alex said "my wife" several times so I was waiting for a reveal that her wife wasn't Kelly in this timeline.

Was the purpose of that random guy standing next to Ryan Choi just meant to demonstrate that sure, they have friends outside of Team "Flash"? Supposedly the character had a name and everything but I guess he was cut to spend more time talking about the one night stand that wasn't?

Uh, Despero? If you're concerned that The Flash is turning superevil, don't you suppose murdering all of his remaining friends and family could accelerate that a tad?

Maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention, but I got very confused by Barry and Darkh's plan. So he had to get to Mach 20 in under two minutes in order to go back in time? To undo all of Thawne's timeline meddling at once? Does Barry even know everything he did besides killing Joe and Barry and disguise himself as Barry? Yet the show made it seem like all he had to do was jump through the portal and everything was fixed, so how did that work? Also, Thawne said the Speed Force chose him in this timeline, but wouldn't it/she/they/whatever possibly have a change of heart after hearing him taunt Barry and reveal what he'd done? And most importantly, did anyone level up? 

[tennisgurl]

 I am just tickled that we spent so much time on a bunch of relationships and exposition on relationships that don't even exist anymore because their timeline was wiped out. The best part of any crossover is getting to see characters from different shows interact with each other, and these versions don't even exist anymore. I am actually alright with that though, everyone was acting weird and out of character and I have no idea if it was because of the changes in the timeline, like how Ryan Choi apparently doesn't have a wife and kid in this universe, or if its just bad writing and shoddy continuity. While there were some future developments that I like, such as Ryan and Iris being friends, a lot of the future just looks lame. Ryan and Sophie are together? I guess Sophie has a type, and its very specific. Allegra and Chester? They seriously pined after each other for ten years over something that could have been cleared up with one text? Those idiots deserve each other. Frost and Chillblaine? Gross, thinking about whatever they were doing in the bathroom makes me want to do shots of bleach, they're almost as gross as that stupid shirtless outfit he was wearing. Thank God Barry was here to avert this horrible future of terrible romances. 

This episode was a real mixed bag for me, there was a lot that I really did like and a lot that I really didn't. I am really over Thawne and would be thrilled if Barry finally just killed him, but I thought he was back to actually being a good villain this time. Nobody gets to Barry the way he does, not even Savitar, and this all does seem very much in character. Thawne has always wanted to be The Flash so of course he creates a world where he gets to be the hero and take over Barry's entire life, even getting to be with his wife. And he needs a villain so he makes Barry into himself, and then brags about it like a five year old. "Who's the fastest now!?!" That's where I find Thawne the most interesting, he has immense power and the mind of a diabolical mastermind, but with the emotional capacity of a bratty psychopathic child. He creates an entire new reality with this huge and elaborate plan to dive his arch enemy insane, and its all just to dick with Barry, who he hates for the stupidest of reasons. Its what made him so scary in the first place, he's this terrifying force of nature who does horrible things for reasons that can seem incomprehensible because they're just so petty and ridiculous, especially when it comes to Barry. I really think one of his best moments as a villain was when Barry has finally unmasked him and has learned of all the terrible things he's done to him, and he asked why he did all of this to him. Thawne just tells him that he destroyed his family and dedicated decades of his life to fuck with him, just because he hates him for existing. Its that mix of power and pettiness that makes him a great villain, which has really been lost due to his overexposure, so hopefully this will be the end for him and he can go out on a high note. 

I also really liked the pairing of Damien and Barry, it was actually one of the few crossover team ups that worked, weirdly enough. I know he's been rather overused as well, but I just cant not love Damien, he cracks me up and I love that he was willing to help Barry to save Nora. Barry appealing to him as a father was a smart way to get him on his side, and they had surprisingly good chemistry, with some funny quips and Damien even giving Barry a pep talk after Barry gave him a classic Barry "I know there's good in you" speech. I also really enjoyed watching him kick the shit out of the frozen zeroes, as if he needs magic to take down those two losers. I did want Barry to to mention that he has a daughter named Nora too (what are the odds?) and that his son in law is supposed to be Ray Palmer, that would be hilarious. 

I am trying to figure out if I am still annoyed with Cecile from last week or if she was acting like a total idiot when she was getting drunk and complaining about her daughter, but I think she was just being an idiot. also being an idiot are Chester (and his awful wig) and Allegra, who the show is apparently trying to sell as some kind of epic romance, but I just don't buy it. I cant get over the fact that they waited ten years to straighten things out, if this supposedly love was so strong they would have talked way before this. I just do not get any romantic chemistry between them, they still seem like friends to me more then people who are mutually attracted to each other and holding back. Plus, none of this matters, because all of this was re-written anyway. All of this angst doesn't matter because its all gone now anyway, we wasted half this crossover on literally nothing.

The best part of the episode was Barry and Iris, and yes its silly that the power of love saved the day yet again, but Candace and Grant always do such a great job at selling me on their epic eternal love. This at least felt a bit more like a big crossover then the last few episodes, even with its huge flaws, but I am hoping that next week gives us something a lot bigger.

Glad that Joe is back, but they couldn't even get a "Hey Bar" from JLM?

Edited December 8, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Starry]

17 hours ago, phoenics said:

And I felt that speedhug at the end too - though - what is up with EVERY couple on this show getting to kiss except WestAllen?  We haven't seen them kiss since before the pandemic! Right?

They kissed in the season 7 finale but the "ban" takes me out of their scenes. They must think that if WestAllen kiss there will be a COVID shutdown or maybe there's something else at play but whatever the reason, it makes me want to stay away from the show forever. I've only watched a few scenes and to me it sounds like they are recycling the same themes over and over again. Barry and Iris already had plenty of lightning rod moments. Except in the past they got a better pay-off than a hug in STAR Labs in front of the entire team. Though I did like Candice's acting when she shot Thawne and reacted to Barry and Grant's happy cry when he reunited with Iris. That was emotional.

 

18 hours ago, phoenics said:

Oh - also LOVED Iris getting a friend in Ryan - the two are friends in real life and that definitely seeped through onscreen - great chemistry.  Loved them soo much.  I hope we get to see more of that friendship as we go.  Iris needs real friends.  Not people who report to her at work - true friends.  Because given how Chester and Caitlin joined up with Cecile after she attacked Iris last week, those folks ain't loyal.  Honestly they've been proving that season after season.

Of course they did 🙄

I have a feeling that even if Barry kills Thawne, he won't stay dead. Because of their time travel shenanigans, that man seems impossible to kill.

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Allegra and Chester? They seriously pinned after each other for ten years over something that could have been cleared up with one text?

That was all pretty silly, but I thought the look on Caitlin's face was funny when they were professing their love.  "When did this happen?".

I thought Barry looked pretty natural in the yellow Reverse Flash costume.  Thawne in the red?  Not so much.  I thought it was funny that even when Thawne was giving a speech to everyone in the room, it seemed like he had to fight from keeping his voice from dropping to a whisper.  

More Love Paragon stuff.  Eh, corny.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, dmeets said:

Uh, Despero? If you're concerned that The Flash is turning superevil, don't you suppose murdering all of his remaining friends and family could accelerate that a tad?

 

So do we all agree Despero is the real bad guy here? I need the narrative to confirm this next week.

 

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Glad that Joe is back, but they couldn't even get a "Hey Bar" from JLM?

 

I truly don't understand why he couldn't record a few lines. He's already getting paid as a regular, might as well get the money's worth; plus, we the audience miss Joe.

 

 

[thuganomics85]

Man, I feel like a complete hypocrite here because as much as I roll my eyes anytime this show finds a way to trot out Eobard Thawne again, I equally find myself giddy whenever the Arrowverse shows bring back Damien Dahrk.  I'm not sure what it is.  It could be that Neal McDonough is just that damn good (definitely not saying Tom Cavanagh isn't by a long shot, but I just feel like there is nothing new with his performances now), that Damien started out as one of the weaker villains and steadily improved, or the show (s) have just done a better job with fleshing him out, because he's just such an evil delight!  I really could have even more scenes/episodes of just him and Barry playing off one another.  Hell, he even got stuck doing the classic "pep talk" bit with Barry and it was somehow better than average.  Plus, "Chilllame."  So with you there, Damien!  He's just the gift that keeps on giving!

I did think was probably one of the better episodes out of the arc, mainly because they actually had Barry play this smarter than norm with how he first pretended to be "Reverse Flash" with Damien and was able to keep it up decently enough until he was forced into a corner.  Considering how many times Barry tends to stumble his way through things, that was actually pretty crafty of him for once.  Also liked seeing more of Alex, Ryan, Ryan and Iris' friendship, and Ryan Choi in general.  Wish we had gotten a few more appearances from others, but I guess I can see why they didn't want to make things too overcrowded here.

Of course, the entire episode did carry the dead weight that was Allegra/Chester, that not only dragged both of those characters down, but even Alex and Ryan Choi as well.  The whole thing was so damn atypically silly.  From the initial "miscommunication", to Allegra's cliched reasons for pushing him away, and, of course, Alex being overprotective in a way that made her come off more like a meddler who can't keep her nose out of other people's businesses.  At least Ryan Choi's initial reactions to all the silliness was great, but of course they just had to make him come around and admit he was only acting like that because he is lonely himself or some shit (I guess Eobard's meddling prevented him from having a family?)  Whatever: the whole thing was dumb.

Not surprised that everything was fixed thanks to Barry and Iris' love for one another, because love always wins on this show!

At least Joe's alive again!  Too bad they couldn't even get Jesse L. Martin to do a voiceover at least.  Would have made the scene way better.

Despero is standing down for now until he gets confirmation that Barry did fix things, but I can see him still being a problem.  Of course, the bigger threat is Eobard is doing what he does best: showing back up already to meddle some more.  Seriously, Barry: just kill his ass.  Or find someone else to do it.  

[Trini]

Can't believe I missed this!

 

(But then Joe/JLM is still in the credits, so...?)

[phoenics]

19 hours ago, Trini said:

Can't believe I missed this!

 

(But then Joe/JLM is still in the credits, so...?)

Hahaha!  Oh wow - I did NOT notice that.  Let me go look.

 

[phoenics]

 

On 12/8/2021 at 2:02 PM, dmeets said:

Maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention, but I got very confused by Barry and Darkh's plan. So he had to get to Mach 20 in under two minutes in order to go back in time? To undo all of Thawne's timeline meddling at once?

I just realized something.

The show HAD to eventually bring Eobard back for one really important reason - to finally connect with the Pilot.

I weep at what a much more capable writers' room could have accomplished with this but I just realized they (poorly) explained why a flash removed Barry from the house the night his mother died.  That must have been THIS Barry after he reached Mach 20 in this episode.  Eobard tells Barry that the reason Barry is disappearing is because he killed Barry as a child - which led to Eobard being able to take on the mantle of the Flash.  Big glaring pothole though is that means Barry should be dead - so all of Team Flash knowing he's Barry Allen seems like a plothole?  Maybe they don't think the Barry Allen Iris and Joe knew before that night is the same one they see now as Reverse Flash?

Man - this could have been so much better if they had shown Barry running at Mach 20 to go back to save himself like they showed in the pilot.

The problem is they didn't make it clear that Barry was running all the way back to when he was a child so he could save himself from Thawne - but that the result would be that his mother would die instead.  What a missed opportunity.  We wasted ALL that time on Chellegra - when we could have seen Barry have to go back to save himself, knowing full well he'd be making the choice yet again to let his mother die.

[Whodunnit]

The only love story I liked in this episode was Dahrk's paternal love for his daughter. 

Also, who were half of the people in the episode?

I found myself fast forwarding through half of the episode... this is not a good sign.

 

[Trini]

[Dang- didn't mean to make this an essay!]

This episode really opened strong; they managed to update us on everyone quickly and efficiently and then went straight into action. I don't necessarily like seeing Barry get beat up, but I did enjoy the Batwoman/Sentinel/Allegra team up against him. And overall I think the strongest episode of this event so far.

The scene with Eobard taunting Barry about stealing his life was great too. You can tell Tom had fun coming back for this storyline. See, this is how he should come back, NOT as some random Wells. (I'd still like to see Letscher come back as Thawne, but the showrunner clearly isn't interested.)

I think Grant really stepped it up to play against McDonough; and also Barry pretending to be Reverse Flash. Again, they made a surpringly good duo in this episode; but it was also just great to see the plot centered on Barry and him working to fix the timeline without the crutch of Team Flash/STAR Labs. And somehow Darhk was one of the most supportive (but not coddling) 'teammates' Barry has ever had? Despite him being a villain. I didn't really watch Arrow or Legends when Darhk was there, so I didn't really have any set ideas about him here. Not the first time Barry has had to work with a bad guy to accomplish something, but really worked here and didn't feel too forced.

And Darhk of all people gave Barry the Love Pep Talk. I guess they had to fit that into this event somewhere. I wasn't really into the side plots, but it was interesting that they continued the love theme in each of them. So many "end game" confirmations!

Going through the subplots by character; but first, it irked me that even though this was supposed to be the (a) future, everyone pretty much looked and acted the same as 2021. I can forgive them not aging up everyone because of the budget (although they spent $20 on Chester's wig...) but Chester and Allegra, in particular, didn't feel like they had another 10 yyears of life experience.

Caitlin: I hope her dating arc goes well, because the writers clearly have nothing else for her to do.

Frost/Chill-lame: Just - Why??

Chester/Allegra: I do like them but I'm not that interested in a love story for them; and especially not in this episode where there were more compelling things going on. Also, this timeline was going to be erased, so I wasn't going to get invested.Although I'm sure we'll see some of that play out in the rest of the season.

Alex: Glad she got a cool action scene, because it was silly that her main role was to prop the Chester/Allegra C-plot.

Ryan Choi: Yes, this was an altered timeline, but I didn't like that they changed his personality mainly to service the Chester/Allegra plot. I did like that he got a couple scenes to showcase him as the ATOM. But they never actually called him the ATOM, and will we ever see him and that costume again?

I really appreciated Ryan (Wilder) and Iris' heart-to-heart, and the opening scene establishing their friendship. It's taken too long for Iris to have a Black, female best friend. I want to see more of this in the 'normal' timeline. Speaking of Iris, I really think we needed to see more of her internal conflict about Barry and Eobard; and maybe show some of the normal timeline breaking through. I liked that they again established that Barry & Iris' love is a constant in all universes; but I think we needed to see another step before that "I love you".

Iris/Eobard -- ::shudder::  Although, it's notable that it took Eobard wayyy longer to to put a ring on it!

Reverse Flash is so petty! Not just taking everything of Barry's, but making sure Barry was around long enough to taunt him about it! They're probably not going to let Barry kill RF on this show, but he's really earned it.

The end scene with Despero seemed really unnecessary. Did we need another Cecile-focused torture scene? Also it doesn't really line up with the last time we saw Despero in the previous episode.

Awww! That WestAllen Speed hug was so sweet! They have the best reunion hugs. A kiss would have topped it off nicely. But I guess we gotta wait until the end of the season again....

So now I'm left wondering how much of what we've seen so far in these episodes is real in the restored timeline? Joe's back, but what else has changed? Does Iris still have all those employees and the whole building for CC Citizen? Is Allegra still an editor? Kramer still Captain at CCPD? Did Ray Palmer still create that foundation? Do we still have Injustice Protocols? Is everyone still "leveled up"?

Shallow note: I think Grant and the costume desingners/makers really pulled off that new RF costume. And they made Cavanagh look good, but I think him in the Flash costume really showed how much the suit is tailored to Grant.

[quarks]

Belatedly catching up with this little mini-arc - which kinda tells you just how much Flash: Armageddon has caught my attention/interest. Which is to say, not much.

As demonstrated by this rather mixed episode:

Good things:

1. The Ryan/Iris chat. It is long past time for this show to give Iris a genuine friend who is her equal - not a family member, not an employee/mentee. Naturally, like Felicity, said friend is on another show, but I'll take what I can get, especially since it's clear that this show isn't even interested in dropping hints that Caitlin/Frost and Iris are offscreen friends. (Look, I get it, show; for whatever reason you don't want the two actresses to appear together on screen unless they are part of a group - but you could easily drop in comments like, "Caitlin and I are having a spa day together," or "I just got back from lunch with Iris, and --" Oh well.). Hoping that Ryan makes further appearances on the show and vice versa - that's a really nice relationship that clicked well.

2. Barry and Damien Darhk. The teamup I never knew I needed. That was fun.

3. Iris realizing deep down inside that she was Barry's lightning rod and not shooting him.

Questionable things:

1. It's not that I don't buy the whole Chester/Allegra "we hooked up ten years ago, it's still awkward now, did we mention true love?" thing. It could happen.  Especially when one person is a traumatized meta and the other person is undergoing severe trauma thanks to a CW wig. What I am questioning is why the episode spent so much time on a relationship that it knew would be retconned/cancelled by the end of the episode - and, moreover, a relationship in a timeline that the rest of the episode kept telling us was so wrong that even one of the major villains of the Arrowverse was willing to try to change it.

2. (Memo to CW shows in general: as hilarious as these ongoing wig failures have been, maybe it's not something that you really want to have as part of your brand. Just saying.)

3. And speaking of questionable future relationships, are we meant to assume that Sophie and Ryan will eventually get married, or that Sophie and Ryan will never be married outside of an evil timeline?

4. And really speaking of questionable future relationships - I realize that we weren't really supposed to buy Iris/Reverse-Flash, let alone cheer them on, and I thought Candice Patton did a great job conveying that, but even with that caveat, I had serious issues buying Iris/Reverse-Flash. 

The one thing I did buy was that it would take Reverse-Flash and Iris a good fifteen years longer to fall in love than it took Barry and Iris.

5. And continuing to speak of questionable future relationships - I'm kinda bewildered by the whole Killer Frost/whoever that was thing, something that absolutely nothing in the episode helped to clear up.

Bad things:

1. The entire concept of the episode. Look, it's not that I can't buy that Reverse-Flash would try to take over Barry's life. That was fine. Or that Reverse-Flash couldn't fake being heroic - he did it during season 1 of Flash, after all.  And before that he directed Star Labs without anyone guessing that he was evil. What I can't buy is that Reverse-Flash somehow managed to keep up the fake heroics for what seems to have been years - especially since it took Joe West and Oliver Queen about a half hour each to realize that something was wrong with Reverse-Flash/Harrison Wells back in the first season.

2. Pretty much everything with Cecile and Despero, but to be fair, that's mostly me not liking Despero.

[akg]

I finally caught up on these and wanted to agree with everyone's complaints on the all of the true love/you don't want to be alone, do you? stuff. For all of the reasons mentioned above but also, not everyone wants or needs romance and I'm really tired of media forgetting that.