S13.E06: Chapter Six: The Vanquishers

[DanaK]

Quote

In the final epic chapter in the story of the Flux, all hope is lost. The forces of darkness are in control. But when the monsters have won, who can you count upon to save the universe?

Broadcast on Sunday, December 5 at 6:20pm on BBC1 and iPlayer in the UK and 8pm ET on BBC America in the US. The runtime is 59 minutes

Written by Chris Chibnall

Directed by Azhur Saleem (who also directed Episodes 3 and 5)

Trailer #1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6llpQggombI

Trailer #2 https://twitter.com/bbcdoctorwho/status/1465395134778937349?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1465395134778937349|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.primetimer.com%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbbcdoctorwho%2Fstatus%2F1465395134778937349

 

[Llywela]

Okay, I enjoyed that. It was super rushed and there are plot holes you could drive a truck through, but I'm not in the mood for poking at them. It was entertaining to watch and made at least an effort to tie up all its loose threads, which I appreciate.

I feel like I should be annoyed at the idea that UNIT had a fully functioning TARDIS buried in storage since 1967 that no one ever thought to mention, through all the decades of the Doctor's acquaintance with them, but I can't be annoyed because the thought of it is just too damn funny to me. All those years Pertwee's Doctor spent trapped on Earth because his own TARDIS had been disabled, and no one ever thought to mention that they had another one safely stashed away someplace! It wasn't clear why Kate brought it into play here, other than it was required by the plot, because there was no in-story reason for her to know that she was about to meet the very version of the Doctor who had mislaid it.

I think the fast and furious nature of the storytelling is probably the biggest downside of the series, as so much character development got glossed over and lost in the shuffle. Maybe if we'd had the extra couple of episodes originally intended, they'd all have had a bit more time to breathe - or then again, maybe not, as character has never really been a focus of Chibnall's time on the show. There were some moments and dynamics I really enjoyed, though. Even under all that fur, Craig Els really sold Karvanista's devastation at the fate of the other Lupari, just with his eyes and the stillness of his posture. And I loved the brief pairing of Di and Vinder inside Passenger, sharing knowledge and figuring out how to escape - their conversations made me regret all over again the way this Doctor has been characterised, always so manic and incoherent, babbling nonsensically. That characterisation felt quite out of place here, set against how focused and coherent everyone else was. Whittaker had some really good moments in this episode where she was allowed to be calm and intent, especially when she was being Time, and I really wish she'd been allowed to play the Doctor that way from the start.

Did not enjoy the Doctor admiring herself and having a crush on herself. 🙄 Having her split into three parts, skipping around trying frantically to resolve everything all at once (again with the awful dialogue) felt like a covid/episode reduction consequence. I suspect they'd have been able to resolve some of these plot threads a bit more neatly if there had been the originally planned 8 episodes. Or then again, maybe it was always planned to be this frenetic.

I'm very amused, given all the fan theorising, that there was no real significance to Bel and Vinder (or their baby) after all, they really were just what it said on the tin: a pair of star-crossed lovers trying to find each other in a broken universe. Not gonna lie, I would totally watch a series of those two and Karvanista freelancing their way across the galaxy. I love all three of them, way more than I've ever taken to Yaz or Dan.

I am very sad about Jericho. He was great and deserved a fabulous future of Big Finish audio adventures. Maybe he can still have a few set during the Lost Years spent in the 1900s with Yaz and Dan! Or maybe a Karvanista, Vinder & Bel (& Tigmi) Big Finish series...

That said, while I've enjoyed having the recurring characters through the series, it all got very crowded there again come the end, which meant that no one really got much in the way of satisfying interaction or resolution.

When the Grand Serpent introduced himself to the Doctor, I expected her to say 'oh yeah, I've heard of you', because didn't Vinder tell her his backstory the other week? But no, no sign she'd ever heard the name before. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Or maybe the Doctor just forgot. I was unclear on how the Grand Serpent got from where he was when Vinder worked for him to his years on Earth and the alliance with the Sontarans, but I don't think that particular sub-plot was really worth the headache of trying to figure it out, so I won't.

Just going to note for the record that the Flux was stopped but not undone in this episode, which means that vast swathes of the universe remain utterly devastated - not for the first time in the show's history, but I'm wondering if this will ever be referenced again, or if the scale of the devastation (including the supposed destruction of the show's biggest baddies) will just be swept under the carpet again going forward. Because they made such a big deal about how most of the universe had been destroyed, Earth was one of the last planets left standing - not even Earth's solar system, just Earth itself, which doesn't sound all that viable for long-term survival, but none of that detail got resolved at all.

Still not a fan of the Timeless Child story, so I appreciate that it was kept to a very light touch here. The Division ship with its lone Ood were a loose end left hanging - to be picked up again in one of the specials, I imagine.

Overall, a decent finale, and taken as a whole I really liked this serialised approach to the show.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Llywela

[HauntedBathroom]

Well...that was Flux. I'd say it was awful, but it didn't engage me enough to have that level of disdain. Meh. Roll on RTD!

[jcin617]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

Just going to note for the record that the Flux was stopped but not undone in this episode, which means that vast swathes of the universe remain utterly devastated - not for the first time in the show's history, but I'm wondering if this will ever be referenced again, or if the scale of the devastation (including the supposed destruction of the show's biggest baddies) will just be swept under the carpet again going forward. Because they made such a big deal about how most of the universe had been destroyed, Earth was one of the last planets left standing - not even Earth's solar system, just Earth itself, which doesn't sound all that viable for long-term survival, but none of that detail got resolved at all.

I thought the same thing… like, oh well!  Sorry Universe!   But you’re right, it probably won’t ever be mentioned again.

[DanaK]

I really enjoyed this, as frantic as it was. It may need a couple of rewatches to absorb the various plots. I especially enjoyed the opening scene and it jumping around various plot lines. There are a few unanswered questions, the big one being the state of the universe. It didn't seem like it was restored like I thought it would be. But overall, I think the rest of the various plots seemed to be resolved

Sad about Jericho and Karvanista's people being killed. Sad that Karvanista can't talk to the Doctor about their Division experience or he will die from something put in his brain. At least Kar has Bel and Vinder to keep him company for awhile

Jodie did a really good job here, especially split as 3 Doctors. I really liked near the ending with the Doctor apologizing to Yaz, telling her she has a lot she wants to tell her, and getting emotional. She even managed a tear. Also, it was good to see the Doctor still has the fob watch but is keeping the memories in there and will have the Tardis hide it until she's ready to deal with it. I loved hearing the 13th Doctor's theme as she was thinking about dropping the watch in the Tardis hole that would hide it somewhere

I was a little surprised the Doctor used a plan to kill the Sontarans, but she kills when necessary and this was necessary. It also allowed the Dalek and Cybermen flleets to be killed as well before that, so that was a lot of destruction

Overall, I really enjoyed this season, though I thought Episode 5 was a little weak, but that was mostly with the Unit plot. Karvanista, Bel, Claire, Swarm and Azure felt like the MVPs of the recurring guest cast. I think the actors and production team did a really great job, especially given the Covid restrictions they had to deal with. Now we have 3 specials to enjoy and I will definitely miss Jodie, as well as Mandip

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by DanaK

[ElleryAnne]

Well, I didn't hate it, but I didn't like it.  It was too messy and frantic, and the payoff was unsatisfying.

I do still like Vinder and Bel.  I would watch a spin-off of the two of them and their baby traveling the remains of the universe and trying to survive, a la Lost In Space/Swiss Family Robinson, with Karvanista in tow.  Kate can be a recurring character in that show.  Also liked Professor Jericho. (His final moments reminded me of another story but I'm blanking out on which one.)  Di and Karvanista were good, too, even if Karvanista's story got sad for a while.  And I liked Williamson and the tunnels.

The problem is that the weakest part of the story for me is the Doctor's part.  I don't like the Timeless Child(ren) nonsense or the Division nonsense, and I really didn't like the whole split-multi-Doctor thing either.  (I didn't even like the split-multi-Doctor thing when Ten had a new, human Doctor as fanservice for Rose, and I adored almost everything about Ten's tenure.)  

Yaz was good when the Doctor wasn't around, but the exchange towards the end between her and the Doctor brought both characters down for me.

Swarm and Azure irritated me all the way through, and the Grand Serpent lost his personality somewhere along the way.  In Serpent's case, it might help if he didn't have a name that sounds like he should be head of a lodge that Homer Simpson or Fred Flintstone would join.  The Sontarans' Three Fingered Hand of Uneasy Alliance was okay.

[Lantern7]

Doctor: (holding the "watch") Okay, dear. I need a big favor. I'm going to drop this in one of your many holes, and I need you to keep this from me. I must never, ever, EVER open it. [long pause] Okay, maybe an hour before I regenerate anything. (to the camera) Why should I lie to myself and YOU lot?

"Flux" was a fun event, once most of the piece fit together. Having the Doctor split in three places (channeling Jean-Luc Picard in the TNG finale) made for a fitting plot device that paralleled the storyline itself. Does that make sense?

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

Did not enjoy the Doctor admiring herself and having a crush on herself. 🙄

Think of Amy flirting with herself in one of the shorts leading into S6. Probably where the Doctor(s) got the idea.

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

I feel like I should be annoyed at the idea that UNIT had a fully functioning TARDIS buried in storage since 1967 that no one ever thought to mention, through all the decades of the Doctor's acquaintance with them, but I can't be annoyed because the thought of it is just too damn funny to me. All those years Pertwee's Doctor spent trapped on Earth because his own TARDIS had been disabled, and no one ever thought to mention that they had another one safely stashed away someplace!

Maybe Grand Serpent stashed it deep enough? He strikes me as that big of an asshole. Here's hoping he's stuck in his final destination.

Everyone lived! Well, except for Jericho, but the last few years of his life were epic. Karvanista lost his people, but at least he got to see the potato people get deep-fried. He gets new companions in Vinder and Bel, he's away from Dan for good, AND he'll probably find a way to express his admiration of the Doctor's distant past without his head exploding.

[QuantumMechanic]

So glad to see Dan clit-block Thirteen and Yaz. I find romantic relationships between the Doctor and companions to be squicky. Hated the Rose/Ten pairing too.

[phalange]

I enjoyed the Doctor split between three places and trying to literally get herself together while having to deal with both the Flux and the Sontarans. 

I liked the dynamics of all the different groups working together and I'm glad Bel and Vinder found their way back to each other. I agree that a show about the adventures of Bel, Vinder, and Karvanista would be fun. Poor Karvanista, being the last of his kind. It cracks me up that after everything, he still really can't stand Dan. It's a shame Jericho didn't make it; he was a good guy.

I was hoping for more with the pocket watch, but it's understandable that the Doctor isn't ready to deal with those answers quite yet.

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Think of Amy flirting with herself in one of the shorts leading into S6. Probably where the Doctor(s) got the idea.

I didn't like that, either!

Quote

Maybe Grand Serpent stashed it deep enough? He strikes me as that big of an asshole. Here's hoping he's stuck in his final destination

But not so deep that Kate couldn't find it and dig it out, at the exact moment when it was needed for reasons of Plot!

[John Potts]

Well that was pretty satisfying! Almost every character got a happy ending (even the Professor got a heroic last stand), Plot threads were mostly tied up and I can accept the (more than usually) Handwaved science (so a Cyber Fleet contains more matter than planets or stars? OK... at least Passenger seemed to be infinite inside, somehow, so that made more sense to me)

Unusual to see a Doctor meeting a Doctor and have them flirting (maybe?) rather than arguing. Though if it's within the same regeneration, they do run to mutual appreciation more often than not.

I guess it makes sense that Swarm would want to eternally torture the Doctor, even if he should know better than to take time monologuing when he should be disintegrating. But (if you're evil) where's the fun in that?

That doesn't mean I don't have my problems with the episode:

- So (like maybe 99% of the Universe) the Lupari were wiped out offscreen? I don't need to see millions being gunned down, but at least show a couple of (digitally duplicated) Lupari corpses just to acknowledge the vast numbers of dead. Not only that, but the genocide of the Lupari was a consequence of the Doctor's actions and nobody mentions it? Shouldn't Karavanista be (rightly!) furious with the Doctor? Just because it happened offscreen doesn't mean it didn't happen!

- Why would the Daleks and Cybermen agree to a truce? The only reason they might would be to plot their own betrayal, only the Sontarans got their betrayal in first. Sontar-HA!

- So we’re never going to see that watch again as it’s completely gone and is certainly not a Chekov’s Gun for the Specials, right?

[Llywela]

6 minutes ago, John Potts said:

- Why would the Daleks and Cybermen agree to a truce? The only reason they might would be to plot their own betrayal, only the Sontarans got their betrayal in first. Sontar-HA!

That's how I read it. I can easily see both the Daleks and the Cybermen getting that invitation and thinking, 'aha, an opportunity to wipe out our dear, unsuspecting, so-trusting enemies,' and not stopping for a moment to think that it might be a trap. I'm trying not to think about the ridiculousness of how rapidly all the space travel seemed to take place, mind - here and in earlier episodes, contributing to the small universe feel of the series.

My overall impression of the series remains 'entertaining nonsense'. Entertaining in that I mostly enjoyed watching it, nonsense in that if you pause to examine almost any element of it in any depth whatsoever, the whole thing falls apart like a house of cards in a storm. Seriously. The more I think about any aspect of the plot, even those the storytelling tried to wrap up, the more problems I come up with. But that isn't unusual for this show, obviously. So I'm mostly focusing instead on the fact that I did enjoy watching most episodes this season, and felt attached to most of the characters despite none of them getting much in the way of in-depth exploration or development. Basically, I think there is a lot here to criticise, but taken as a whole I found it more entertaining than the last two seasons, so that's a plus.

[DanaK]

In case this gets deleted, overnights were 3.58 million, rank was 5th for the night

Edited December 6, 2021 by DanaK

[sugarbaker design]

First of all, only 12 responses the day after a Doctor Who season finale?  It really is time for a change.

Second of all, I was checking out former seasons on Wiki, specifically seasons 12 and 13, after reading Llywela's rave about Sarah and Harry Sullivan.  The listings also had ratings and viewer numbers.  These episodes had 9-10 million viewers!  I'm watching on Britbox.

[Llywela]

28 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

First of all, only 12 responses the day after a Doctor Who season finale?  It really is time for a change.

Second of all, I was checking out former seasons on Wiki, specifically seasons 12 and 13, after reading Llywela's rave about Sarah and Harry Sullivan.  The listings also had ratings and viewer numbers.  These episodes had 9-10 million viewers!  I'm watching on Britbox.

Oh gosh. What did I say? 😳 Whatever it was, I hope they live up to my hype! (I remain very fond of that little group)

[benteen]

This episode reminded me a lot of the Star Trek TNG finale "All Good Things" which has Picard going back and forth through time.  This episode and season rushed through a lot of stuff. Was confusing and needed more episodes.  But there is a lot to like here too.

Jodie was finally given strong material and delivered.  I might be finally warming up to 13.  Yaz benefitted greatly this season and I hope she stays when The Doctor regenerates.  Dan can stay as well.  I'm sorry to see Jericho go.  He made a good team with Yaz and Dan and it would have been fun to have another companion from the cast.

I do appreciate Chibnall using the RTD model of bringing so many characters together and telling such a big story.  I would be happy to see more Vindor and Bel, along with Karvanista.

Still not a fan of The Timeless Child storyline and am glad The Doctor buried the fob in the Tardis.

Really liked having the Sontarens be the big bad here instead of the Daleks or Cybermen again.  Grand Serpent wasn't needed and thought he might have been a Kinda.  Kate Stewart was mostly wasted but nice to see her again.  Of course Kate likes this Doctor...they look just like each other!  To the point I don't think we saw both their faces side-by-side in this episode...

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by benteen

[TheGourmez]

8 hours ago, benteen said:

Grand Serpent wasn't needed

I think that's my biggest complaint - I don't really know what the point of his storyline was at all except to give Vinder some angst - UNIT did not have much of a presence, really. But that said, I enjoyed watching the series, and I'm exciting for the next set of episode.

[Llywela]

12 minutes ago, TheGourmez said:

I think that's my biggest complaint - I don't really know what the point of his storyline was at all except to give Vinder some angst - UNIT did not have much of a presence, really. But that said, I enjoyed watching the series, and I'm exciting for the next set of episode.

I think the Grand Serpent was supposed to represent much the same thing Vinder and Bel represented: the impact of the Flux on the wider universe. We know from Vinder's backstory that the Grand Serpent was once enormously powerful. By the time he pops up on Earth to mess with UNIT, he has lost all that power and influence, thanks to the Flux. That's why he ends up working with the Sontarans, he's scrambling to reclaim his position, he wants to be powerful again.

The trouble is that his story doesn't really track, partly because the whole season suffers from Small Universe Syndrome (everyone seems able to zip from one side of the universe to the other in the blink of an eye, which makes the whole universe feel very small) but also because he is shown to have time travel. And with that, why bother with Earth? Why stay rooted near the supposed end of the universe? If he can go anywhere at any time, why not remove himself from all danger from the Flux, which is shown to be spatial rather than temporal? That part of his story is never really explained, and is weaker as a result. Maybe this sub-plot was a victim of the shortened season? With more episodes, maybe there'd have been more development.

(Also, if that tech wasn't removed from him, his exile at the end is unlikely to last very long...)

Edited December 7, 2021 by Llywela

[Megras]

To be fair after the flux, the universe, whats left of it, might actually be quite small.

[DanaK]

Looking back at it, it does feel like UNIT and Kate, except for seeing UNIT’s history and why it was shut down, were greatly shorted in the finale. Since Chibnall wanted to bring UNIT back, it felt like it was more for long term plotting purposes, that is to use a resurrected UNIT with Kate in one or more of the upcoming specials

[benteen]

The origin of UNIT would have been great as the sole focus if an episode or even one of the upcoming specials.  Seeing the early days would have been fun.

It seems pretty likely that Kate will return.  I like when a familiar face returns on this show. 

[Llywela]

30 minutes ago, benteen said:

The origin of UNIT would have been great as the sole focus if an episode or even one of the upcoming specials.  Seeing the early days would have been fun.

It seems pretty likely that Kate will return.  I like when a familiar face returns on this show. 

We've already seen the early days of UNIT. Back in the late 60s and early 70s with the Second and Third Doctors. 😉 Let's not retcon any more of that history, please!

I agree it seems likely that Kate will be back. I hope they make better use of her next time!

[JustHereForFood]

I really liked it, but wish we could have had more episodes for this season, this seemed to be packed a bit and I wouldn't mind if there was more time for a couple of storylines. 

I liked Doctor split into 3 parts, though I probably missed an explanation why that happened. Loved how Doctor spoke to her other versions, I sometimes wish I had another version of me to talk to, who would get me. And I would totally flirt with myself (probably more than flirt 😏).

At least we will not wait long for another episode. But I can't believe there's only 3 more.

[tennisgurl]

So, are we going to acknowledge the fact that a big chunk of the universe just gotten eaten up by the Flux? Millions or even billions are presumably dead, including all of Karvanista's people who were killed by the Sontarans, I really hope the show plans to really deal with that, its a pretty big freaking deal, especially if the Doctor and company will be exploring the universe like usual. Guess its going to be a smaller universe from now on? This is a big deal and its weird that everyone seems so chill about it, moving right on to the Doctor and Yaz making up and everyone heading off. 

I still have some questions, there are definitely some plot holes, and I am still annoyed that the show has decided to keep the ridiculous Timeless Child story, but I still really enjoyed the Flux a lot. I think I might like it even more watching this all together, the breakneck pace seems like its perfect for a binge, and when your on a ride of wild plot twists and emotions its easier to ignore some plot holes. Its Doctor Who, just chalk it up to timey wimey and enjoy the ride, which is easy in a story like this. The ending wasn't quite as satisfying or as epic as I wanted, but I still feel mostly happy with how it ended, especially if they follow up more later on the post Flux universe that is half gone. Its weird, I have mostly preferred Chibnall's stand alone episodes, mostly because I don't care about the Timeless Child, but this shows that he actually can do a serialized story quite well, maybe the key is to give him a beginning, middle, and end, not the never ending myth arc? 

Its pretty rich of the Daleks to get all upset about being betrayed, you know they were just waiting to betray the Cybermen and the Sontarans the second they got the chance. No way are they all gone, the show certainly isn't going to off two of their most iconic villains, especially with such little fanfare.  

Very sad about Karvanista's people and that Jerico didn't make it, I really liked him. At least he got some cool last words and a last stand.

The Grand Serpent turned out to be quite unnecessary didn't he? For the most part I think the show did a good job of wrapping the many subplots up, but that one seemed the most unnecessary, his character really didn't serve much purpose besides giving Vinder some closure. Although if his flashbacks means the return of Kate and UNIT, I would say it was worth it. And for as much as they were built up, I never much cared about Swarm and Azure, despite their cool designs they were never that interesting as villains, the concepts around them, like the personification of time and the time creatures, were much more interesting then they were. And like I said, there were some real plot holes and loose threads, especially the destruction of half the damn universe. 

That all being said, I did really like this event, frantic crazy pace and all. Most of the subplots paid off and were all individually interesting as well as being good on their own. In fact, a lot of them seemed like they would have been good episodes all on their own, like the guy in Victorian England building his tunnels throughout the universe or everything with Vinder/Bell and their planet, which apparently ousted their corrupt leader offscreen. The cast was huge but thanks to the writing and actors they all really made an impression and I like how much they ended up mixing up characters and subplots, it added a lot of fun while things were getting crazier and more serious in the last few episodes. The many stories and characters, jumping around to all kinds of time periods and planets, really made for a fun and exciting story, really using the adventuring spirit that makes this show a blast when its at its best. I also thought this was a great arc for Jodi, she was a lot of fun as the three doctors and I really felt her reconnection with Yaz at the end. This sort of manic energy is right up her alley. I ended every episode excited to see what happens in the next one, and now I am amped for the the New Years special, which is very good thing. The epic scope and huge cast really worked out, I will have to watch again.

Now can we get some webisodes with Vinder, Bell, their baby, and Karvanista's adventures? Can they show up again in time for next years special? And the return of Kate and UNIT would be welcome as well. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by tennisgurl

[gonzosgirrl]

Shallow note: I loved the costume/makeup for Azure. I paused a couple times just to see the details. Her face/head were almost like a map of the Earth. Her eyes in particular were mesmerizing.

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Shallow note: I loved the costume/makeup for Azure. I paused a couple times just to see the details. Her face/head were almost like a map of the Earth. Her eyes in particular were mesmerizing.

Costume designer Ray Holman will have a two part interview on the season’s costumes in Doctor Who Magazine. Part 1 will be in the issue released Thursday. I thought the costume people did fantastic work for this season, particularly with Swarm, Azure and Karvanista

 

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I really liked it, but wish we could have had more episodes for this season, this seemed to be packed a bit and I wouldn't mind if there was more time for a couple of storylines. 

I liked Doctor split into 3 parts, though I probably missed an explanation why that happened. Loved how Doctor spoke to her other versions, I sometimes wish I had another version of me to talk to, who would get me. And I would totally flirt with myself (probably more than flirt 😏).

At least we will not wait long for another episode. But I can't believe there's only 3 more.

The Doctor theorized she was split into 3 because she removed her stabilizing pin just as Swarm touched her and she was outside the normal bounds of space, but she added that it’s something that shouldn’t be possible 

[DoctorAtomic]

On 12/5/2021 at 9:05 PM, Lantern7 said:

Think of Amy flirting with herself in one of the shorts leading into S6. Probably where the Doctor(s) got the idea.

And a little bit of Captain Jack. He would certainly be flirting with himself. 

Jericho certainly did well for himself too. 

I enjoyed it, if only because they did a serial instead of the usual format. I wasn't surprised that the finale was bonkers. I wasn't expected three Thirteens (Thirty-Nine?). 

I actually enjoyed all the characters. Not that I hinge much on continuity, but when Ten met Whilf on xmas, Whilf said everyone left London on xmas because of all the Doctor shenanigans in the past, so I wouldn't be too surprised if the universe was smaller. 

I'm sure no one thinks the Sontarans, Daleks, or Cybermen are gone. Certainly, escaped. But, it might be better facing off against only a few rather than whole ships at a time. I don't think all the Lupari are gone either. 

I don't know why Time said that the Doctor has no more regenerations either. Eleven got a whole new set on Trenzalore. Of course, the Doctor isn't dying either. 

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't know why Time said that the Doctor has no more regenerations either. Eleven got a whole new set on Trenzalore. Of course, the Doctor isn't dying either. 

I think Time’s comment was supposed to mean that no life or regeneration (ie, a particular life) lasts forever not that the Doctor would not regenerate, just that her time to regenerate again was coming soon. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by DanaK

[DoctorAtomic]

We know it's going to be a regeneration, but I thought Thirteen said 'no regenerations?' Although Ten treated his regeneration as sort of a death, so I could see Thirteen feeling the same way. 

I did laugh at the Doctor sassing the other for being 'ooh touchy' when she wanted to explain the plan. 

[DanaK]

2 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

We know it's going to be a regeneration, but I thought Thirteen said 'no regenerations?' Although Ten treated his regeneration as sort of a death, so I could see Thirteen feeling the same way. 

I did laugh at the Doctor sassing the other for being 'ooh touchy' when she wanted to explain the plan. 

I think 13 said in response something like "No, it can't be". I think any particular Doctor likes their current form and at least some are probably not ready to give it up yet. 13 spent most of her current regeneration in prison, so I'm sure she'd like some more time for fun

The AI for this episode was 76.

In the US on BBC America, the viewership for the 8pm timeslot was 0.09 in the 18-49 demo, up from 0.07 from the last episode, 411,000 viewers, up from the previous 334,000 viewers, and the rank was 51, up from 64

 

[Tyro49]

Maybe when the fob watch is finally opened it will reveal that the whole Timeless Child thing was a hoax and never really happened; it will explain what really happened with the Master and that the Doctor's backstory that we all know is the actual one. (Or something like that.)

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

I think 13 said in response something like "No, it can't be". I think any particular Doctor likes their current form and at least some are probably not ready to give it up yet. 13 spent most of her current regeneration in prison, so I'm sure she'd like some more time for fun

 

I also feel we really didn’t get enough time with her.  I thought at the beginning they showed her wanting to have relationships, the whole ‘fam’ thing, and that is kind of dropped without resolution or reflection. Yet it even seems to connect to the orphan timeless child story, something could have been made if it. 

Alternatively, although they were good in the role, ten and eleven just dragged on, all but wallowing in their goodbyes. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Affogato

[DoctorAtomic]

We still have the specials, so that should be fun. 

tbh, I kind of wanted Thirteen to just destroy the watch when she was on Division, when the Swarm were taunting her. She's still the same person who helped all these people. She's not going to stop. 

[NeenerNeener]

On 12/6/2021 at 7:03 PM, benteen said:

Still not a fan of The Timeless Child storyline

I think it makes more sense than The Doctor being 1/2 human. Time Lords are made, not born , on "Time Looms" or so the story used to go. If The Doctor is a completely different species than your average, run-of-the-mill Gallifreyan then "Time Looms" maybe what Tectuen called her gene-splicing equipment to give the regeneration ability to YAROFMGs. We'll likely never find out the whole story, though, as Tectuen is gone, Gallifrey is gone, and next year Chibnall is gone.

[Llywela]

23 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

I think it makes more sense than The Doctor being 1/2 human. Time Lords are made, not born , on "Time Looms" or so the story used to go. If The Doctor is a completely different species than your average, run-of-the-mill Gallifreyan then "Time Looms" maybe what Tectuen called her gene-splicing equipment to give the regeneration ability to YAROFMGs. We'll likely never find out the whole story, though, as Tectuen is gone, Gallifrey is gone, and next year Chibnall is gone.

The concept of 'Looms' comes from one very obscure extended universe novel written during the wilderness years. It is not show canon. In fact, show canon implies fairly normal childhood and family situations for Time Lords.

[HauntedBathroom]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

The concept of 'Looms' comes from one very obscure extended universe novel written during the wilderness years. It is not show canon. In fact, show canon implies fairly normal childhood and family situations for Time Lords.

Exactly. The looms used to spit out fully formed adults, and we've seen losts of Time Lord children, so I think it's safe to say the series has nixed the extended universe. The idea was only designed to stop fans from thinking Time Lords did anything as icky as having sex.

[NeenerNeener]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

The concept of 'Looms' comes from one very obscure extended universe novel written during the wilderness years. It is not show canon. In fact, show canon implies fairly normal childhood and family situations for Time Lords.

I lounge corrected. That's what I get for trying to make sense out of this show.

[Affogato]

I've mostly watched 'old who' episodically, so I'm not that devoted to (and aware of) a lot of the mythology. I often have to look things up. The only who I watched in order, about the time it was out, was the third doctor, and yeah, a little annoyed about the unit stuff in this one. So I get the problems people have.

I'm okay with the Timeless Child stuff, while being confused as to why the Master was mad at Doctor about it, and why Tecteun wanted to destroy the universe over it. Just seems like an overreaction. Find another hobby, people.

To me Who, in general, is a lot like comics, and mostly has retained its continuity (and ability to absorb tangential storylines) well. The timeless child doesn't actually change continuity, necessarily, it just means that we didn't know all of it.

The story seems to emphasize the general feeling of homelessness and loss that the Doctor has always felt. Adopting earth as their home, separation anxiety over companions, that sort of thing. So many lifetimes. I can also see stories where she has to find out her past and decides to put it away again, stories where the doctor visits the other side of the wormhole, and I can see the possibility of these being good stories.

Poor puppy, though. He must be a really old dog, and now he has to learn new tricks. It is hard.

[DanaK]

7 day figures are 4.531 million viewers

[Eulipian 5k]

On 12/5/2021 at 2:45 PM, Llywela said:

I feel like I should be annoyed at the idea that UNIT had a fully functioning TARDIS buried in storage since 1967

LOL.  Don't forget Billy Shipton's Phone Box in 1969, sitting around waiting for 10 & Martha? Claire should have seen/seered that one, since it has "Angel dust" all over it.

Hilarious that Yaz' harebrained, not well thought-out attempt at being Doctorish, Clara-ish, River-ish, led to a useless dead end. (No crop circles like LKH? , They could have had a cult maintain them over the ~200 years) But Dan DID Fetch His Dog like the Hermit said!

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Eulipian 5k
Ewpps. Timey-Wimeyed!

[Llywela]

38 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

LOL.  Don't forget Billy Shipton's Phone Box in 1969, sitting around waiting for 10 & Martha? Claire should have seen/seered that one, since it has "Angel dust" all over it

...but it wasn't the TARDIS that got stuck in the past in that episode, it was the Doctor and Martha. The phone box Billy Shipton found (in the present, where the Doctor left it) was sent by Sally Sparrow (via magic DVD, created by Billy Shipton under direction from the Doctor) directly to Ten and Martha, who were in 1969 waiting for it. It hadn't been sitting around waiting to be found since 1969. The Doctor landed it in the present and then got sent back to 1969 without it. The police found it, also in the present, because they and the Doctor were investigating the same thing: people disappearing around a creepy old house. That's why they had to go through the whole rigmarole with Sally to get it sent back to them without having to live through the next 40 years to get to it.

So. Entirely different scenario!

(I re-watched that episode just recently, we're introducing our 6yo to the show, bit by bit. I thought she might be scared but instead she made a game out of the Weeping Angels!)

Edited December 15, 2021 by Llywela

[festivus]

All I can say is I hope I don't have to remember any plot details from this mess when RTD takes over because I'll never be watching these episodes again. I did like Jericho quite a bit as well as Bel & Vinder. The baby moniter was totally adorable, like really my favorite thing that's been on this show for a while. So if that's all I liked it says quite a bit about how 13's run was handled. I'm sure I'm on record somewhere in this forum about my dislike of Chibnall so the sooner we move on from him the better in my book. Maybe I'll start being excited again. 

I did love the look of the villains. Very artistic, I wish I had the talent to paint them.

[DanaK]

28-day figures are out as well as some hopefully final BARB updates (unless they do more updates)

7-day: 4.638059 million viewers, rank 22nd for the week

28-day: 5.142294 million viewers, rank 19th for the week