S01.E03: Echoes

[swanpride]

Clint and Natasha were both the kind of agents you dropped off behind enemy lines and expect the job done. Meaning: Clint might be not as good of a spy as Natasha is, BUT he is also not the kind of agent you need to give instructions to in order to get the job done. Case to point: Clint planning multiple heists for Loki. 

Btw, the whole "allow yourself to get captured to get information" is a page right out of Natasha's handbook. Clint just look waaaaay less cool doing it...

[Morrigan2575]

On 12/1/2021 at 4:48 AM, SnarkShark said:

Lol, to using the cheesiest possible Sammy Davis Jr. song.  

About on par for me with Ep1 (which I liked much more than most people, apparently).  Far better than Ep2, with its silly distracting LARPer subplot.  This one was a nice focused episode. 

Cold, yes.  Snow?  If you think so, you've probably never been in Manhattan in December.  Snow is mid-January. Maybe as late as February. You might get a dusting in December, but a full snowfall then is the exception not the rule.  But sure.  It'll be reasonably cold. 

Except lately, seems like another warm December...maybe it'll be 75 on Christmas again? LOL

I loved this episode. So much fun! I love that this show just plays into the Whimsy of a Bow and Arrow wielding Super Hero. LOL

Kate and Clint have a great partnership developing and, the actors have great chemistry.

Anyone else think Kozi looks like Jon Snow/Kit Harrington? Look more like Kit than Kit did as Dane 😂

On 12/1/2021 at 10:09 AM, Fool to cry said:

Immediate two thoughts:

Pym arrow!

Maya's "uncle" is definitely Wilson Fisk, right?

 

On 12/1/2021 at 12:11 PM, AzureOwl said:

I’m like 90% sure that was D'onofrio’s voice in the flashback. 

OMG, How did I missed this!?  🤦🏻

[bethy]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Anyone else think Kozi looks like Jon Snow/Kit Harrington?

Yes! It was distracting to me!

[Morrigan2575]

Oh and I totally forgot. I loved the big extended fight sequence both in the toy factory and the car chase. The fight in the toy factory was great, loved Clint jumping into the ball pit and Kate using the shopping cart. 

The car chase was great, with the trick arrows, the odd couple partnership between Kate and Clint and, the Pym Arrow. 

 

[paigow]

Is there a shrinking Pym arrow? Or is it adjustable?

[johntfs]

25 minutes ago, paigow said:

Is there a shrinking Pym arrow? Or is it adjustable?

It might be adjustable but I doubt it.  In Ant-Man there were two different kinds of discs, one to grow and one to shrink.

On the subject of "Why didn't Clint kill Wilson Fisk" beyond the idea that he didn't know who Fisk was, consider that as Ronin he went all over the world.  In Endgame he first went to Mexico and when Nat caught up with him he was in Japan.

Clint's likely process was to go someplace, spend a few days there killing criminals (the higher up the better) and then go someplace else.  As for talking to the cops, Clint was committing multiple murders and he was fairly well known as an Avenger.  He probably avoiding the police to stay off their radar.  And more importantly to stay off the other Avengers' radar since they were making at least some effort to find him during those five years.

Basically if Fisk is around there's plenty of reasons why Ronin wasn't able to get to him.  And when some other crimelord shows up there will be reason why Ronin didn't kill that guy either.  Figure there's plenty of crime but even with five years there's not plenty of time.

[wlk68]

8 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

 If he was just a killer Fury would have probably sent someone else.

Agreed. I've always thought that Fury respected Hawkeye for his brains as well as his sharpshooting ability. I got that immediately from their conversation about the tesseract in the 1st Avengers movie. It was Clint, not the scientists, who figured out that "doors open both ways". He's also the guy who came up with (and executed) the plan to take down the heli-carrier. And he came very close to succeeding, too. 

[Sandman]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:59 AM, johntfs said:

Pym arrow!  That is all for now.

Sandman: "Does that arrowhead say 'PYM' on it?"

:: Hawkeye's arrow strikes Kate's; Kate's falling arrow transforms itself into giant freaking ballista ::

Sandman: "It DOES say 'PYM' on it! Hot damn! Heee!"

I love this show.

6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Anyone else think Kozi looks like Jon Snow/Kit Harrington?

I started thinking of him as Dirty Jon Snow.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Sandman

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, Sandman said:

started thinking of him as Dirty Jon Snow.

That's good. I'm going to start using it 😊

[bethy]

8 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The fight in the toy factory was great, loved Clint jumping into the ball pit

Edited December 3, 2021 by bethy

[RedElf]

Kazi (Fra Fee) was in that Camilla Cabello Cinderella movie.

Alaqua Cox really is deaf and an amputee.

 

[calliope1975]

Clint earned his extra time in the ball pit.

[RedElf]

In the credits, the boy that the bigger kid takes down during karate is identified as "Young Kazi".  Is that karate school a school for your gangsters?  There is a quick scene where the karate instructor and one of the track suit bros are going out the front door together.

 

[paigow]

4 hours ago, RedElf said:

Is that karate school a school for your gangsters?

Cobro Kai

[Bruinsfan]

I couldn't tell for sure, but that body on the office couch in Maya's flashback to her father's death looked like a teenager to me. Was Clint so far gone during his Ronin years that he just showed up at chop shops and such killing everyone on site regardless of what exactly they were guilty of?

[arachne]

I loved the bit where Kate designed a costume for Clint (a shout-out to the original Hawkeye costume -- I actually remember it from the old Captain America cartoon of the '60s) and Clint said his wife would divorce him for wearing that. 😄

[RedElf]

4 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I couldn't tell for sure, but that body on the office couch in Maya's flashback to her father's death looked like a teenager to me. Was Clint so far gone during his Ronin years that he just showed up at chop shops and such killing everyone on site regardless of what exactly they were guilty of?

Spoiler

Could it have been Jack? In the comics, Jack is Ronin's mentor.

 

[arc]

Super random trivia: Maya/Echo barely missing with a stomp to Clint's crotch is at least the third near-miss crotch attack on a hero in the MCU. Also seen in Captain America: The Winter Soldier (Batroc vs Cap) and Shang-Chi (Razorfist vs Shang-Chi). In every case, there's a reaction shot on the hero as he realizes what a close call he just had.

Kate's use of the shopping cart in the fight was inspired. 

Kate not knowing how to drive really marks her as a true New Yorker.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, arc said:

Super random trivia: Maya/Echo barely missing with a stomp to Clint's crotch is at least the third near-miss crotch attack on a hero in the MCU. Also seen in Captain America: The Winter Soldier (Batroc vs Cap) and Shang-Chi (Razorfist vs Shang-Chi). In every case, there's a reaction shot on the hero as he realizes what a close call he just had.

Kate's use of the shopping cart in the fight was inspired. 

Kate not knowing how to drive really marks her as a true New Yorker.

Gymnastics, check.  Martial Arts, check.  Archery, check.  Driving, why bother?  Parking's impossible and the subway is right there.

[paigow]

On 12/3/2021 at 11:31 AM, Bruinsfan said:

Was Clint so far gone during his Ronin years that he just showed up at chop shops and such killing everyone on site regardless of what exactly they were guilty of?

GTA +Fashion Crime = Death Penalty

[johntfs]

Probably.  I mean, my take on Clint as Ronin was that he wasn't "fighting crime" or even "punishing criminals."  It was "My wife and children got Snapped into black ashes and these parasites are still getting to suck oxygen?  Fuck that shit.  They're gonna die."

It's quite likely that Clint killed a lot of people who weren't technically criminals.  A CEO raiding his employees' pension fund to buy a new yacht.  Another executive closing a factory to boost his stock options.   Clint's time as Ronin was a time of madness for him.  He's ashamed of it.  Figure it's one reason he keeps insisting that he's not a role model.

[jacehan]

When Clint told them that Natasha killed Ronin, my first thought was Obi-Wan telling Luke that Darth Vader killed his father. From a certain point of view....

[Ailianna]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

A CEO raiding his employees' pension fund to buy a new yacht. 

Actually, that is a crime. Larceny and/or embezzlement.

[TV Diva Queen]

I'm new to the MCU - I've seen all the movies that are in theaters and rewatch them on Disney+.  I don't know backstories, blah blah blah, but I do have a question.  Where, when and how does Hawkeye get these arrows at?  Like, who's making them? and when does he swing by for a new batch?

[wlk68]

19 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

I'm new to the MCU - I've seen all the movies that are in theaters and rewatch them on Disney+.  I don't know backstories, blah blah blah, but I do have a question.  Where, when and how does Hawkeye get these arrows at?  Like, who's making them? and when does he swing by for a new batch?

My guess would be R&D at SHIELD and/or Tony Stark (and Stark Enterprises). I would assume that Clint helped design them or is at least involved in testing them. 

[TV Diva Queen]

2 minutes ago, wlk68 said:

My guess would be R&D at SHIELD and/or Tony Stark (and Stark Enterprises). I would assume that Clint helped design them or is at least involved in testing them. 

thank you.  It's not any deeper than I figured it was.  LOL  We always see Tony doing his R&D on his next suit, which I find entertaining, and it made me think of the arrows

[calliope1975]

I thought the casting director just did an excellent job with the resemblance.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CXJvWqQOmH2/?utm_medium=copy_link

[CailynA]

22 hours ago, jacehan said:

When Clint told them that Natasha killed Ronin, my first thought was Obi-Wan telling Luke that Darth Vader killed his father. From a certain point of view....

Exactly what we said at our house

[paigow]

Black Widow immunized Ronin, but did not vaccinate him...

[johntfs]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:57 PM, Ailianna said:

Actually, that is a crime. Larceny and/or embezzlement.

Fine.  Do those crimes typically receive or merit capital punishment?  Pretty much no.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

Fine.  Do those crimes typically receive or merit capital punishment?  Pretty much no.

Oh, well sure. White collar types get minimum sentences, a short stretch in a cushy federal place where they don't have to worry about getting stabbed for a carton of cigarettes. And sometimes they buy their way out of it, more or less. Not always, but sometimes.

Here, though, I doubt that's the kind of people Ronin went after. Clint tells Kate that Ronin pissed off a bunch of very bad people, but he doesn't specify how bad they were or what they were involved with that made them so bad. Even fictional crime bosses (Michael Corleone, Tony Soprano, Wilson Fisk) have minions who do the dirty work so they can keep their hands clean, even if it's only so they can present a nice face to the public. They don't (usually) kill people themselves, they hire it done. I've been thinking of Ronin as similar to Frank Castle or maybe John Wick, highly skilled and very dangerous, but they only go after certain people.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I've been thinking of Ronin as similar to Frank Castle or maybe John Wick, highly skilled and very dangerous, but they only go after certain people.

If Ronin had been chasing dirty billionaire douchebags, old Armand & Jack would be dead already...

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 12/1/2021 at 4:38 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

He definitely wears the hearing aid in his left ear (the viewer's right when looking at him).  I think if Kate had sat on the other side of him on the train, she definitely would have been talking into his "bad" ear.  What I can't tell, however, is if he has a hearing aid in his right ear and if he's also hard of hearing in that ear, why doesn't he?  They certainly are portraying him as hard of hearing in both ears.

Maybe the other ear isn't correctible with a hearing aid.

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Maybe the other ear isn't correctible with a hearing aid.

Which is annoying based on the tech in the MCU. They cured Rhodey's paralysis and when Pepper had the Extremis thing. They got the shrapnel out of Tony's heart. Wakanda even brought Everett K Ross back to life. But there is no one who can cure hearing loss?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Which is annoying based on the tech in the MCU. They cured Rhodey's paralysis and when Pepper had the Extremis thing. They got the shrapnel out of Tony's heart. Wakanda even brought Everett K Ross back to life. But there is no one who can cure hearing loss?

Clint certainly uses advanced tech for his equipment, but I wonder if he would want it inside his body. Unless it's completely a biological fix, I bet we'd hear about installed hearing aid tech being hackable.

Edited December 21, 2021 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Clint certainly uses advanced tech for his equipment, but I wonder if he would want it inside his body. Unless it's completely a biological fix, I bet we'd hear about installed hearing aid tech bring hackable.

Yeah, even the arm Shuri made for Bucky isn't something that could be controlled by an outside source even if it is super-crazy advanced. It seems like cumulative damage like what Clint's dealing with, the gradual deterioration of his hearing, would require a permanent implant, and he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would agree to that if there was a chance it could be tampered with. "I've done the whole mind control thing. Not a fan."

[Bruinsfan]

Does he still have that plastic skin Dr. Cho gave him in his side?

[Eliza422]

On 12/21/2021 at 8:20 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

Which is annoying based on the tech in the MCU. They cured Rhodey's paralysis and when Pepper had the Extremis thing. They got the shrapnel out of Tony's heart. Wakanda even brought Everett K Ross back to life. But there is no one who can cure hearing loss?

Did they cure Rhodey? I thought he just had high tech external skeleton. Obviously that's still good, but it's not technically a cure.

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, Eliza422 said:

Did they cure Rhodey? I thought he just had high tech external skeleton. Obviously that's still good, but it's not technically a cure.

I'm not a doctor so maybe cured is the wrong word. But Rhodey couldn't walk and now he can. And he is able to walk with a device that is way beyond anything that we have available in our world. Yet Clint's hearing aid is high and looks like something I can get. Even the ear communicator that Red Guardian used in BW is smaller than Clint's hearing aid.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I'm not a doctor so maybe cured is the wrong word. But Rhodey couldn't walk and now he can. And he is able to walk with a device that is way beyond anything that we have available in our world. Yet Clint's hearing aid is high and looks like something I can get. Even the ear communicator that Red Guardian used in BW is smaller than Clint's hearing aid.

Rhodey definitely wasn’t cured. He has a very high tech leg braces. In story, Clint’s hearing aid choice would probably be more about personal preference than available tech. Smaller ones then he wears exist right now but it is personal preference and Clint is exactly the type to not want something more intrusive. 

[johntfs]

On 12/23/2021 at 2:17 PM, Dani said:

Rhodey definitely wasn’t cured. He has a very high tech leg braces. In story, Clint’s hearing aid choice would probably be more about personal preference than available tech. Smaller ones then he wears exist right now but it is personal preference and Clint is exactly the type to not want something more intrusive. 

Meanwhile, if his hearing aids do get broken, he can just go to a doctor in Chinatown to get them fixed/replaced instead having to travel back to Stark HQ or wherever to do it for something more exotic or high tech.

[ProudMary]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:53 PM, johntfs said:

It's quite likely that Clint killed a lot of people who weren't technically criminals.  A CEO raiding his employees' pension fund to buy a new yacht.  Another executive closing a factory to boost his stock options.   Clint's time as Ronin was a time of madness for him.  He's ashamed of it.  Figure it's one reason he keeps insisting that he's not a role model.

Definitely criminal. A destroyer of many lives. By law, it may not be a capital offense, but yes, in Clint's mental state during that time period, he'd have deemed that CEO worthy of death.

"You can arm yourself, alarm yourself
But there's nowhere you can run
'Cause a man with a briefcase
Can steal more money
Than any man with a gun"   -- Don Henley, Gimme What You Got (1989)

[HurricaneVal]

Not gonna lie.  I cracked up when Clint muttered "Sorry, Santa" when he drove out of the Christmas tree lot and you're left going "huh?" then the dancing air column Santa pops back up behind their car, flapping it's arms.  No.  I didn't just crack up.  I totally lost it. 

[Raja]

On 12/2/2021 at 10:41 PM, RedElf said:

In the credits, the boy that the bigger kid takes down during karate is identified as "Young Kazi".  Is that karate school a school for your gangsters?  There is a quick scene where the karate instructor and one of the track suit bros are going out the front door together.

 

It may be a reoccuring comic book theme or multiple TV writers came upon the same ideal. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. had Hydra prep schools and Iron Fist/The Defenders had Colleen Wings' martial arts school, among others in the dialog, from which The Hand  recruited the best from.