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S41.E10: Baby With a Machine Gun

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I just watched it again and heard Shan call Deshawn, "sneaky" at the same time she was calling him smart.  It may be an insult to some people, but I think to others it just means the person is clever in a subtle sort of way.  Ericka and Deshawn both seem incredibly smart to me now and I wouldn't have said that earlier in the season.   They both cover their intelligence with a casual attitude and humor. 

Ricard is also very smart, but you only have to look at him when he's doing a puzzle to see that lazar focus he throws at problems.  I'm hoping he makes it to the family visit, because as handsome as Ricard is I'm expecting great things in his partner.

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3 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm hoping he makes it to the family visit, because as handsome as Ricard is I'm expecting great things in his partner.

I would imagine they won't do the family visit because of Covid.

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1 hour ago, watchingtvaddict said:

Erika being called "sneaky" ... I don't think "sneaky" can be seen as anything but negative. 

I'd prefer the terms "cunning" or "strategic". Because Erika definitely understands Survivor and she has a great strategy. 

She knows how to pull back when she isn't on the chopping block. She also knew she needed to split the vote and protect herself when people were thinking about voting her out. Sure she got lucky with her "turn back time" advantage but at least she made the right decision. 

Erika was many times on the chopping block. Lets not forget the time Luvu had decided to throw the challenge to vote her out. If Naseer had not beasted that comp out, she would have gone pre-merge. Then the thing with the turn back time happens. She was going to be gone there as well.

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One thing Xander has going for him if he makes it to the final three is that he doesn't have any blood on his hands. He hasn't been directly responsible for anyone's ouster, so depending on how bitter the jury is, that could work in his favor. He pissed off Liana, for sure, but did not orchestrate a vote against her. And he didn't save Evvie with his immunity idol but even she should be able to see why he wouldn't. 

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8 hours ago, MsTree said:

I hear what you're saying, but it's really irritating when the first thing they want to do is band together for an "all girls" alliance. And in some instances, it's even before they really get to know one another. Shit like this makes me long for the early days of Survivor when Dr. Sean evicted based on the alphabet 😁😁😁

I mean, it was only Evvie who had been actively pushing for that, but that's because all women alliances are pointed out and obsessed about by the men so often (see Abraham in week 1, Danny all throughout pre-merge) that working with other women aren't often on their to-do list. All women alliances get targeted, so there are women who avoid working with other women because it'll put a target on their back. 

Men don't need to say they're working with other men, because they won't be targeted nearly as often as women if they work with people of the same sex. They can simply just work together day 1 or day 2. They're lucky in that they can join together without saying a single word about it. Women either have to make a pointed effort to do so, or they have to make a pointed effort to avoid it because it's the men who point it out in the first place. See Sydney's comments earlier about how she'll never work with other women, or Evvie's comments about how they didn't want a men vs women scenario that happens so often (and look; what Evvie has said is coming true. Look at how many women have gone out back-to-back-to-back-to-back). Look at how intimidated Danny was by four men going out pre-merge that women have basically all gone out since then (besides Naseer). At this point, more women have gone out than men. 

There are reasons for all women alliances being mentioned and how they usually fail most often than not, and that's because men, for some reason, feel intimidated by the prospect that women want to work with just women. We've seen it happen in various reality TV competitions, not just Survivor. Even when all women alliances form naturally, they'll still get targeted by the men. If they're forced, then they usually tend to not work out because someone in the alliance turns on them or they split apart because of the forced connection.  But women still have to fight so much harder than any man has to just to get recognition for their work. Women can't work with other women openly like men can work with other men openly. See Danny/Deshawn not being targeted for being a pair. Deshawn may be a target, but there has not been any talk (that they've aired) about needing to split up Deshawn/Danny. While Shan/Liana were recognized for being a pair and the split votes this episode were between them as a result. Or how Xander was going to be targeted to flush his idol the last couple of Tribals, yet his female allies were the ones who had the split votes between them. 

It's why I would hope that the remaining women (at least Erika and Liana) will be recognized for their hard work (Liana's made some bad moves but she's been playing the game), but it's truly hard to tell because the men carry the majority now and we've seen plenty of scenarios where there could very likely be one remaining woman by finale time.

This cast truly has been strong in terms of strategy. Love certain players or hate them, 90% of the cast has at least been DOING SOMETHING to warrant their popularity, or lack thereof. We've seen seasons where there's a few players who just do nothing and skate by, or don't fight as hard. Even if these players have made bad moves or mistakes, at least it shows they're passionate enough to try. I can't really name a whole lot of duds this season compared to...season 39, for example. Even many of the pre-merge players have at least made one move that's memorable. 

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On 11/25/2021 at 11:15 AM, Melina22 said:

I agree 1000%! I can see why Shan was viewed as a threat, but Tiffany? Evvie? Erika? Heather?? What??? 

Also, right from episode one I've heard so many people attacking Shan both inside the game and online for being too aggressive, shady, manipulative, while people like Boston Rob have always been idolized for doing exactly the same and much worse. Not fair. 

For something completely different, I decided last night that I'd LOVE to see a ten minute montage of nothing but people whinging and complaining about the conditions. How hot, tired, itchy, constipated, nauseous, starving, smelly and exhausted they are.

Is Bear Grylls editing this show? A team of Navy Seals? Whoever they are they're oblivious to all things related to comfort. It's all strategy all the time. Heck, they didn't even show us the pizza last night, (or maybe 3 seconds of it?) or the blissful enjoyment the Survivors must have felt eating it. 

Obviously, I'm very comfort-focused. No wonder I'm not a Navy Seal. (Apart from age, fitness, motivation and nationality.) 

 

your comment made me stop and think how Shan differed from Boston Rob.  I admit, I'm a Rob fan. But, although he did say and do villainy things, he always kind exhibited an ironic "can you believe they fell for this?" vibe.  His confessionals didn't seem as mean spirited as Shan's but I could be wrong.  and to me, Rob was a much better player. Shan let her emotions cloud her judgement sometimes and when DeShawn tried to make her understand, it went right over her head.  Rob was a master at reading people and made adjustments in how he dealt with different people.

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On 11/25/2021 at 11:49 AM, DEL901 said:

I think Shan was the architect of her own demise.  She said that she and Ricard knew they’d have to go after each other at some point, but what she really meant was that she wanted to keep him as long as he was useful to her.  And then she’d get rid of him. It never occurred to her that he might strike first, even when she was voted out.   As well, she should have waited until AFTER the immunity challenge to spill the beans to Ricard and give him time to counter up the plan. 

Yes, to all of this, especially the bolded. 

Her biggest mistake in this game IMO had nothing to do whatsoever with her gender and playing too aggressively, but her mouth. She just could not keep her mouth shut at critical times to save her (Survivor) life. Liana also has the same issue. Shan outed Liana's advantage, which could have been hugely helpful to their side, giving the opposition ample time to come up with the Tiffany has it plan and she couldn't get to Ricard fast enough, giving him plenty of time to set up her ouster. She also kept referencing "The Four" in front of other players NOT in "The Four," Ricard included.

Players in general, need to know when to zip it already, and more often than not over the seasons, it's those who keep quiet (especially about their HIIs) that go far, if not all the way to winning.  

Still rooting for Xander (he's my pick to win), Danny, Ricard, or Erika to win (although Erika's split vote is not some crafty mastermind plot so not quite sure why she's seen as some huge threat). 

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14 hours ago, Blissfool said:

I seriously don't understand how Xander can go to Tribal Council and keep his idol in his pocket. How is he so sure that he's safe!? If I was Xander and I saw and heard Ricard and Shan in deep conversation about their alliance at the Pizza Reward and then I had Ricard come to me the next day and tell me, "Don't use your idol. We're all voting for Shan" I would definitely not believe him and would definitely use my idol.

Yeah I can only assume that people are telling him more than we are allowed to see.

9 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Players in general, need to know when to zip it already, and more often than not over the seasons, it's those who keep quiet (especially about their HIIs) that go far, if not all the way to winning.  

Still rooting for Xander (he's my pick to win), Danny, Ricard, or Erika to win (although Erika's split vote is not some crafty mastermind plot so not quite sure why she's seen as some huge threat). 

Yeah that's her problem exactly.  I think Xander is pretty good about knowing how to shut it and that's helping him.  As for Erika - I don't think the split vote idea is such a big deal, but getting everyone to go along with  her idea is probably harder than it seems!

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4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I would imagine they won't do the family visit because of Covid.

From your lips to God's ears

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1 hour ago, GaT said:

From your lips to God's ears

Amen! Every single year I'm forced to poke fun on this board about the ludicrous over the top reactions. saying the way the castaways cry and carry on you would think the family members were catching the last train to Auschwitz. If you can't go 39 days or less without dissolving into a blubbery mess well...I've gotta eyeroll when we are supposed to be empathetic. The one and only time a family member visit affected me was when I felt pity for a woman named Katie because the best they could muster up to come all the way across the world for her was...her sister's boyfriend. No family member, no best friend...that's right...her sister's boyfriend.

Also I believe the family visit was directly responsible for blowing up Christian's game when despite any refusals or denials to the contrary my beloved Gabby came down with a case a green eyed jealousy over his girlfriend showing up. That had to be a blow to her to see him with that plain jane when she was a million times hotter and seemingly his equal in every way.

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33 minutes ago, North of Eden said:

 

Also I believe the family visit was directly responsible for blowing up Christian's game when despite any refusals or denials to the contrary my beloved Gabby came down with a case a green eyed jealousy over his girlfriend showing up. That had to be a blow to her to see him with that plain jane when she was a million times hotter and seemingly his equal in every way.

Christian addressed this in his quarantine interview, actually. He said that Gabby knew from the beginning that he was in a serious relationship and I believe she was also in a long-term relationship. They were both unhappy with how the audience seemed to "ship" them based on what they saw in the episodes.

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23 hours ago, Valerie said:

Christian addressed this in his quarantine interview, actually. He said that Gabby knew from the beginning that he was in a serious relationship and I believe she was also in a long-term relationship. They were both unhappy with how the audience seemed to "ship" them based on what they saw in the episodes.

You know what they say about "Doth protest too much  LOL". What's he gonna say...his girlfriend was probably very anxious over the situation as each episode aired that season. Chemistry however does not lie and it was there on screen.

chrisgabby.png

Edited by North of Eden
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I'm finally watching this episode.

Would the black community really celebrate or care that a black person wins Survivor? I just feel the black community has much more important concerns than who wins a TV reality competition.

I wonder if Evvie would have aced this puzzle.

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Ricard's picks are interesting. Shan is a no-brainer as she's his best friend. Picking Heather and Xander who are "enemies" is a little more puzzling. Unless he really meant it.

What Liana isn't saying is if Ricard is gone, then she doesn't have to share her best friend Shan with anyone else. Now Shan will tell her everything!! All her secrets!! And Shan will sing her stupid song to her!

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The person demonstrating the challenge sure is tan.

Go Ricard and Xander! And now they are the last two left.

And there goes the vote out Ricard plot!

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On 11/26/2021 at 9:10 AM, watchingtvaddict said:

Erika being called "sneaky" ... I don't think "sneaky" can be seen as anything but negative. 

I'd prefer the terms "cunning" or "strategic". Because Erika definitely understands Survivor and she has a great strategy. 

 

Erika is called sneaky by Shan and her alliance because she isn't in their alliance.  If she was in their alliance, then she would be cunning and/or strategic. 

I think that's the only difference--because she's the outsider.  Not because she's a woman, or of Asian heritage, or anything else.

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Great, maybe classic, episode. But I just want to point out that Xander isn't a floater.by choice,  but because all his allies have been voted out. The floaters that are resented are usually floaters who choose to play that way and flaunt their pivotal position at crucial votes. That's not how Xander's played.

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What bothers me a lot is that players who have stayed in the game more than Shan (Heather, Erika) have gotten maybe the tenth of the time that Shan got. Sure I know that Luvu never went to tribal and that Heather and Erika didn't have to show any game play before last episode, but still they deserved more exposure in the episodes. It's what I don't like with the American survivor's edit, they only show people who make moves and/or create some kind of drama. Even Sidney who left pre-merge had more air time than players who made the jury and maybe even the final tribal council. On Australian Survivor all players get some kind of air time and we get to know things about them. Shan did not deserve the winning edit she got at all. She was strategic but she made various serious mistakes.

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On 11/27/2021 at 12:44 AM, JudyObscure said:

I just watched it again and heard Shan call Deshawn, "sneaky" at the same time she was calling him smart.  It may be an insult to some people, but I think to others it just means the person is clever in a subtle sort of way.  Ericka and Deshawn both seem incredibly smart to me now and I wouldn't have said that earlier in the season.   They both cover their intelligence with a casual attitude and humor. 

Ricard is also very smart, but you only have to look at him when he's doing a puzzle to see that lazar focus he throws at problems.  I'm hoping he makes it to the family visit, because as handsome as Ricard is I'm expecting great things in his partner.

His partner probably won't be able to visit as they are pregnant and expecting fairly soon. I believe Ricard said they are due on the final day of filming? 

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I doubt there would  be a family visit. The cast and crew  had to quarantine before the start of the game, that’s why it’s so much shorter this time. They would have had to have a family member for almost every cast member, quarantine rhem, and then tell half that they couldn’t see their family member because they got voted out.  

I don’t like Ricard. Howver I thought it was very nice of him to bring Heather and Xander to the reward.  An acknowledgment that they hadn’t gotten ( or had given up) rewards.  I always like a little inclusiveness for these ‘select one more person to come’ rewards.  It’s good game  okay too: 

 

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All I said last week was that I couldn't wait for Ricard to stab Shan in the back, and in a Thanksgiving miracle worthy of a Charlie Brown special, I got my wish. Take your lame-ass villain humming and go back to brow-beating the youth at bible class, Shan!

When Liana told Jeff that she was a student of strategy at Tribal, I choked on my leftover turkey sandwich. Girl...I wouldn't trust you to strategize your way out of a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos, let alone Survivor. 

#TeamXander

I'll give Erica a little credit for strategy with her splitting the votes plan, but lets be real: only Blair Waldorf can be smart enough to pull off a scheme while wearing a velvet, pearl-studded headband on a desert island. 

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12 hours ago, Gummo said:

Great, maybe classic, episode. But I just want to point out that Xander isn't a floater.by choice,  but because all his allies have been voted out. The floaters that are resented are usually floaters who choose to play that way and flaunt their pivotal position at crucial votes. That's not how Xander's played.

Xander could have worked with Tiffany and Evvie but he choose not to. He could have saved Evvie two weeks ago but choose not to. Who knows what difference it would have made in the grand scheme of things but he did have choices. He is floating because he choose to save the advantage and idol for himself. 

I am not saying that it is bad game play but that it is a choice he made. 

And his social game has to have been poor enough to not work his way into a different alliance. Shan and Liana were able to manage working in with Danny and DeShawn, for a bit. Ricard seems to be more then a vote with Danny and DeShawn. Some thing about Xander’s game has left him solo when most everyone else seems to have at least a partner ship (Danny/DeShawn, Heather/Erika, Ricard/Shan, Shan/Liana) for most of the game. Xander never really had even that type of partnership. 

Ricard risked his game by voting out his partner, but he had a reason to do so. Shan wasn’t an easy partner and seemed to have a second partnership and an alliance that Ricard was titularly attached to. 

Something is off with Xander’s edit because we are not seeing why the more athletic, seemingly nice dude, has failed to find an alliance of any type in this game.

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12 hours ago, himela said:

What bothers me a lot is that players who have stayed in the game more than Shan (Heather, Erika) have gotten maybe the tenth of the time that Shan got. Sure I know that Luvu never went to tribal and that Heather and Erika didn't have to show any game play before last episode, but still they deserved more exposure in the episodes. It's what I don't like with the American survivor's edit, they only show people who make moves and/or create some kind of drama. Even Sidney who left pre-merge had more air time than players who made the jury and maybe even the final tribal council. On Australian Survivor all players get some kind of air time and we get to know things about them. Shan did not deserve the winning edit she got at all. She was strategic but she made various serious mistakes.

I’d actually argue that Australian Survivor, as much as I love it, is even worse with its purple edits.

We’ve had one player make it to a swap without getting a single confessional the entire season, and multiple players go several episodes without a single confessional, including their boot episode. 

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13 hours ago, Gummo said:

Great, maybe classic, episode. But I just want to point out that Xander isn't a floater.by choice,  but because all his allies have been voted out. The floaters that are resented are usually floaters who choose to play that way and flaunt their pivotal position at crucial votes. That's not how Xander's played.

Agreed. Xander is neither a floater or skating by. He’s been playing by himself since pretty much Day One. Evvie, who was really wanting a women’s alliance was gunning for him very early on. Tiffany and Liana were happy to join her line of thinking and quickly picked off Eric and David. Tiffany seemed to have come around a little bit as she was worried about Evvie cutting her after Xander, agreeing to work with Xander to foil Liana’s advantage, bolstered by DeShawn revealing that Evvie had told him all about Xander’s idol and wanting to work with him post-merge. Xander DID save Evvie’s bacon, but it was clear the damage by DeShawn’s revelations was done. She would have happily voted him out the first chance she got, Liana hates everything about him, his face included, and his only possible pseudo-ally, Tiffany, was voted out, likely because she helped pull off the foil. Him saving Evvie again would have been a waste of his idol as the opposition would have sent him packing next and, I think, Evvie would have joined in the votes against him. He is looking out for the only person who has truly helped him in this game and that is himself. 

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On 11/26/2021 at 7:15 PM, Lamb18 said:

Would the black community really celebrate or care that a black person wins Survivor? I just feel the black community has much more important concerns than who wins a TV reality competition.

There are of course going to be different takes within the black community. Some people are not only not going to care about a black person potentially winning, but aren't going to care about the show, period. Some are going to be huge fans and will want specific people who happen to be black, or not, to win. And some people are going to be interested in things that go beyond the literal winner into subtext and other subjects.

I happen to be black. I haven't ever watched Big Brother, only have a rough sense of the rules, and the only reason I recognize any contestant from the show is because she competed on the Amazing Race, which I do watch. Did it change my life that the show finally had a black winner? Of course not. I do think it is interesting that there was apparently a conspiracy among black contestants to ensure that there was a black winner, and that probably has ramifications for fans of the show that I can't guess at.

I had never watched any of the Bachelor franchise, but I watched Matt's season to see how they would treat the first African-American Bachelor. In a word: awkward.

Getting back to Survivor, the show has already had four black winners. So it would not be groundbreaking in most ways if any of the three remaining black contestants won. The exception would be that it would be the first time an alliance explicitly and organically based on race would succeed. (Cook Islands doesn't count IMO). I think some people -- maybe even most people -- would be less comfortable with a race-based alliance than the explicit men's/women's alliances that seem to form most seasons. It also has ramifications for the diversity initiative for CBS. If it becomes a legitimate strategy option for people of color or white people to say "Let's band together and get all of those people out," well, I think people will find that unsavory.

Then there is the sense that the show is a metaphor for social relations. It does sadden me some that the African-American Alliance basically could have had the game on lock if they had stayed a strong four, with Ricard as a mostly-ally. If they just had said, OK, we're going to vote out Xander/Erika/Heather here at 8, then we have the absolute majority and an idol and we can pick off the others one by one, it would have been a pretty easy clap to get a final three that was majority black or all black.

But because of DeShawn's macho pride, Danny and DeShawn's misreading that Ricard needed to be eliminated ASAP and that Liana could be trusted to not tell Shan, Shan's poor decision to instantly tell Ricard (among other things), they went from having 4 votes and an idol to having at best three votes and no idol, if not 2 votes/1 vote or every person for themselves. 

And yes, all people regardless of race have more important things going on in their lives than any given reality show. But it's not difficult to multitask and want (for example) a more just society and to root for your favorite reality show candidate.

P.S. To be clear, I am not particularly rooting for any of the black Survivors to win. I think Danny as a millionaire doesn't need the money and I think that he and DeShawn have made a number of unforced errors. Liana hasn't been the sharpest tool in the shed. 

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I just watched the episode (Thanksgiving), & Shan called both Erika AND Deshawn "shady".  I feel like, in Survivor terms, when a Survivor player calls another Survivor player "shady", it means "the are plotting without me! OMG! so shady"

Nothing more.  Just "this other player is playing their game without me.  That's shady!"  It's almost a compliment, to hear a player describe another player as "shady".  IMO.

That said, it feels like we, as observers, too often try to assign negative traits to people we don't like when they might not deserve it.  A player uses the word "shady" = they don't like Asians.  So when Shan (who I enjoyed seeing voted outed out) uses "shady" to describe Erika, it's something we can use to ascribe a negative trait to her, ignoring that she also called Deshawn "shady".

It just appears *to me*, as a way to pile on a player a poster doesn't like.  As in, if you can ascribe racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. to a player you already don't like, based on a vague word choice they used to describe another contestant, then you can be like "I don't like this person, AND ALSO they are a bad human being", when just not liking a player is a fair enough take.

 

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This was the most satisfying episode of Survivor in years.  Bye Shan.  I hope you never come back.  Or if you get invited back, I hope people will recognise you instantly for a deceitful snake and vote you out immediately.

Shan played a decent game but the thing I hated most about her was her hypocrisy and the fact that she thanks that her shit don't stank.  It's rich that she sits around and criticises others for being "sneaky" or "shady" when she is the Queen of Sneaky and Shady.

On 11/27/2021 at 5:23 PM, paul4295 said:

Erika is called sneaky by Shan and her alliance because she isn't in their alliance.  If she was in their alliance, then she would be cunning and/or strategic. 

I think that's the only difference--because she's the outsider.  Not because she's a woman, or of Asian heritage, or anything else.

I don't think it's even the fact that she was the outsider.  Xander was a dangerous outsider to Shan as well.  Shan seemed weirdly obsessed with Erika for weeks now, and it's because Shan viewed her as a threat.  Nobody is allowed to be as smart or strategic as Shan.  I also took issue with Shan calling it a "person of color" alliance, because clearly she only meant black but I guess she thought it would sound better to the viewers at home if she made it sound more inclusive?

On 11/27/2021 at 8:20 PM, himela said:

What bothers me a lot is that players who have stayed in the game more than Shan (Heather, Erika) have gotten maybe the tenth of the time that Shan got. Sure I know that Luvu never went to tribal and that Heather and Erika didn't have to show any game play before last episode, but still they deserved more exposure in the episodes. It's what I don't like with the American survivor's edit, they only show people who make moves and/or create some kind of drama. Even Sidney who left pre-merge had more air time than players who made the jury and maybe even the final tribal council. On Australian Survivor all players get some kind of air time and we get to know things about them. Shan did not deserve the winning edit she got at all. She was strategic but she made various serious mistakes.

Agreed.  Given that Shan exited the game at #8, I find it a bit interesting that so much air time was eaten by Shan.  And that the producers went so far as to spotlight her stupid humming and even had a background music track created for her.

But I do love that Heather asked her what she was singing when she was doing her stupid humming at the reward.  "Oh just nothing" (but I am secretly overjoyed that Erika is going home tonight).  HAHAHAHA.  Bye Shan!

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On 11/28/2021 at 2:37 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

If it becomes a legitimate strategy option for people of color or white people to say "Let's band together and get all of those people out," well, I think people will find that unsavory.

You will never(I know never say never) get a group of white people saying 'lets vote out all the black people.' Survivor and the general public will call it racist.  They may vote out a few black people in a row but they will never say it and Jeff would put a stop to it if it looks like that somehow. 

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Shan was playing a more public game and it was more easily shown. She was part of the losing tribe so we saw a ton of her. And she was one of the people who was rocking multiple alliances. She was behind many of the votes and encouraged Liana's awful use of the advantage.

I suspect that Erika and Heather both knew that they were in the bottom of their original Tribe and were trying to not be the target. Erika was bit in the ass when she approached say something to DeShawn about voting out Sydney. She probably figured out that she couldn't trust Danny or DeShawn at that moment. The ridiculous rock, paper, scissors BS for sending Erika to exile for 2 days told Erika that she was below Nasser.

Showing scenes of Erika and Heather discussing quietly how they need to be careful and their path forward is going to be less interesting then showing Shan humming her song. I couldn't believe that she actually hummed the stupid thing at the reward challenge.

That said, we saw when Heather tried to challenge Shan and how badly that failed. We saw Erika try and challenge Sydney and that failed. Now we are seeing the two of them as a partnership that is in a swing position. I suspect we will see more of them and how they are playing because of the position they are in.

Realistically speaking, we have not seen much in terms of how Danny is playing. He has always been in the majority. He has tried to hold DeShawn in check but has kind of failed in that. we have seen him throw out a few names and idea but he backed down to Shan's plan pretty quickly and then was fine with voting out Shan and throwing votes on Liana. None of that was generated by Danny, he was responding to other peoples game play.

And we really have not seen a ton of Xander. There have been conversations here or there but he has not been able to initiate anything and is more a participant in conversations then anything.

DeShawn, Ricard, and Liana have been the three that have got the most screen time at this point.

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Also I wanted to comment that Liana said in the episode that nothing in the game was more important for her than the moment she connected with Shan about their mothers but when Shan is voted out she says her vote goes to Ricard. Another betrayal and shitty behavior even after she gets voted out.

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1 hour ago, himela said:

Also I wanted to comment that Liana said in the episode that nothing in the game was more important for her than the moment she connected with Shan about their mothers but when Shan is voted out she says her vote goes to Ricard. Another betrayal and shitty behavior even after she gets voted out.

I don't see Shan's saying she would vote for Ricard over Liana as either a betrayal or shitty behavior.

First of all, her statement might not be true. She could have said she is voting for Ricard to reinforce what DeShawn and Danny already told her they believe: that Ricard is a threat to get jury votes so they better get him the f--- out ASAP. In other words, it could be her attempt at revenge against Ricard rather than a true expression of what she would do. It could be disguising the notion that she is a lock for Liana and that (from the perspective of the players still in the game) Liana has to be the next to go.

But even taking it at face value that she really would vote Ricard to be Sole Survivor, so what? Just because Liana and she bonded doesn't mean that she owes Liana her vote to win, or that either of them would not have tried to vote the other out if it was the only path to the million. It could also simply be a realistic assessment of the situation: with three people already being willing to write Liana's name down, it seems unlikely that she will make it to the end. 

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25 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

First of all, her statement might not be true. She could have said she is voting for Ricard to reinforce what DeShawn and Danny already told her they believe: that Ricard is a threat to get jury votes so they better get him the f--- out ASAP. In other words, it could be her attempt at revenge against Ricard rather than a true expression of what she would do.

From Shan's interview:

Quote

But I saw something in Ricard. I believe in what he shared with me about his life. And there was something about Ricard, where we could stand toe to toe as competitors and as game players. When I wanted to strategize, he wanted to strategize. It was such an interesting relationship because people would be like, “Oh, my goodness, they fight so much.” But Ricard was my husband on that island. We would fight, we would bicker. But at the end of the day, we were gonna move together no matter what.

It was like a marital relationship, and all respect to Andy and his loved ones. But that’s who he was to me. I loved him. So we would debate way more than you actually saw. But at the end of the day, we would say, “I love you, let’s do this.” We would move together. So it was a complicated relationship. But that’s my boo. I had a lot of fun playing with him. And his move was probably one of the best moves of the season.

https://parade.com/1300702/mikebloom/shantel-shan-smith-survivor-41-interview/

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41 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But even taking it at face value that she really would vote Ricard to be Sole Survivor, so what? Just because Liana and she bonded doesn't mean that she owes Liana her vote to win, or that either of them would not have tried to vote the other out if it was the only path to the million. It could also simply be a realistic assessment of the situation: with three people already being willing to write Liana's name down, it seems unlikely that she will make it to the end

Yes, that was my take, that with the four crumbling she didn't think Liana would make it to the end.

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5 hours ago, himela said:

Shan could be lying or exaggerating about the level of closeness she felt to Ricard.

Or even assuming that she's telling the truth about their closeness, that doesn't foreclose the possibility that in that immediate moment of being ousted, Shan sought revenge against her game husband.

I suspect most people will admit that they've gotten significantly frustrated with their partners and significant others at one point or another and done things that they later regretted. Or even if they don't admit it, the fact that 50 percent or so of marriages end in divorce is enough of an indication that married couples often fail to reconcile their issues all the time. 

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7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But even taking it at face value that she really would vote Ricard to be Sole Survivor, so what? Just because Liana and she bonded doesn't mean that she owes Liana her vote to win, or that either of them would not have tried to vote the other out if it was the only path to the million. It could also simply be a realistic assessment of the situation: with three people already being willing to write Liana's name down, it seems unlikely that she will make it to the end. 

Well, I think it further undermines Liana in the eyes of the jury and the remaining active players.  And it probably hurt Liana's feelings.  Liana and Shan bonded about being black women, I am sure Liana was aware that Shan and Ricard were together from Day 1 but I bet Liana was hoping that she could supplant him as Shan's #1, since they cried together about being black women and they had a "moment".  Her dream was probably to go to the final tribal with Shan.

By telling Ricard that he has her vote for a million dollars, it indicates that Shan thinks Ricard is playing the best game, as opposed to Liana.  It also puts a target on Ricard's back.  I think it was a poor move by Shan.  I am sure she said it in the heat of the moment, just moments after getting voted out and seeing her dream crash to the ground, but I bet Ricard is wishing she hadn't said that.  

I could easily see Liana gunning to take out Ricard now.  With the alliance destroyed, I can see Liana and her jealous/butthurt feelings approaching Xander, Erika and Heather to vote out Ricard.

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10 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Well, I think it further undermines Liana in the eyes of the jury and the remaining active players.  And it probably hurt Liana's feelings.  Liana and Shan bonded about being black women, I am sure Liana was aware that Shan and Ricard were together from Day 1 but I bet Liana was hoping that she could supplant him as Shan's #1, since they cried together about being black women and they had a "moment".  Her dream was probably to go to the final tribal with Shan.

By telling Ricard that he has her vote for a million dollars, it indicates that Shan thinks Ricard is playing the best game, as opposed to Liana.  It also puts a target on Ricard's back.  I think it was a poor move by Shan.  I am sure she said it in the heat of the moment, just moments after getting voted out and seeing her dream crash to the ground, but I bet Ricard is wishing she hadn't said that.  

I could easily see Liana gunning to take out Ricard now.  With the alliance destroyed, I can see Liana and her jealous/butthurt feelings approaching Xander, Erika and Heather to vote out Ricard.

Let's be real: right now, there's no evidence to support the notion that Liana has played even a reasonably good game, let alone "the best game."

Liana's Survivor resume currently consists of the following:

-Surviving to the Merge

-Getting outwitted by Xander when she tried to use the Knowledge Is Power advantage

-Being part of the African-American Alliance, which was in a position to run away with the game but has apparently crumbled in no small part due to her actions

-Trying the really dumb move of trying to persuade Xander, who she has transparently hated for a while, to give her his idol

- Surviving having three of eight people be willing to vote her out, and now (presumably) having three of seven

-Zero individual immunity wins

She easily is tied with Heather as having the least impressive resume of the remaining players, if not is actually worse because Heather hasn't done anything as opposed to how Liana has squandered the KIP advantage.

Now, maybe Liana manages to turn things around and do stuff to impress. But so far, saying Ricard had a better game than Liana is just pretty much objectively true.

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18 hours ago, blackwing said:

I could easily see Liana gunning to take out Ricard now.  With the alliance destroyed, I can see Liana and her jealous/butthurt feelings approaching Xander, Erika and Heather to vote out Ricard.

…which would be a perfect opportunity for HEX to pull in Ricard for a 4-3 vote against one of Danny/Deshawn/Liana, then eliminate the remaining two PLUS Ricard over the course of the next three opportunities - setting the stage for a HEX Final 3.

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The only variable in my mind would be which of Danny/Deshawn/Liana HEX should go for first.  Personally I think Danny would be the best bet, with Deshawn a VERY close second; both are physically strong enough to pose a significant IC run threat which could foil their plans, so eliminate them at the earliest opportunity.  No need to worry about Liana; she’s shown little capacity to win shit, and she’s the least likely of the three to maintain strong relationships with any of the remaining cast.

Edited by Nashville · Reason: Expansion
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I would take out DeShawn first, he has been shown trying to make different alliances or agreements with other people. He has not followed through but at least he has worked at establishing different relationships. Danny has stuck with his core group and does not seem to have tried to work with anyone else. Liana has alienated Xander, they both can pretend to get along but neither of them believe the other. She alienated DeShawn and Danny by rating out the Ricard vote. I don't think she has any relationship with Heather or Erika. 

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Danny has been shown trying to have a relationship with Xander and Xander has claimed that he wanted to work with him. Danny even said (albeit probably false) for one vote that he would do whatever Xander wanted to do.

IMO, the decision on who from the AAA to target depends on how widely known it is among the contestants that Danny is a former NFL player. I would never award a million to someone who I know is already a millionaire (or at least, unless their game was otherworldly), and so I would think that if that is known, Danny has roughly no shot at winning at FTC and I would keep him around. 

But IIRC, Danny is the only contestant who has not had his name written down once. Which may not be something for him to rest secure in. I don't think Shan's name was written down before this episode, for example. And he's a generally likeable guy who seems to be playing a low-key and honest game. So he could be a bigger threat than I give him credit for.

There is also the issue that if just one of the AAA makes it to the FTC, there's a good chance that that person will get the 3 votes from the booted members (regardless of what Shan said about Ricard having her vote). That's a pretty good headstart to a majority. 

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2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But IIRC, Danny is the only contestant who has not had his name written down once.

This is correct.

There is someone on the Survivor subReddit that does weekly "Perfect Game"-watch threads, chronicling who in the game has the chance to pull off a game where they receive no votes until FTC when they get all the votes. (Something that has only happened twice in Survivor history). 

As of the end of this episode, Danny is the only one still in contention for a Perfect Game this season.  Everyone else has received at least one vote.

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8 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Danny has been shown trying to have a relationship with Xander and Xander has claimed that he wanted to work with him. Danny even said (albeit probably false) for one vote that he would do whatever Xander wanted to do.

IMO, the decision on who from the AAA to target depends on how widely known it is among the contestants that Danny is a former NFL player. I would never award a million to someone who I know is already a millionaire (or at least, unless their game was otherworldly), and so I would think that if that is known, Danny has roughly no shot at winning at FTC and I would keep him around. 

But IIRC, Danny is the only contestant who has not had his name written down once. Which may not be something for him to rest secure in. I don't think Shan's name was written down before this episode, for example. And he's a generally likeable guy who seems to be playing a low-key and honest game. So he could be a bigger threat than I give him credit for.

There is also the issue that if just one of the AAA makes it to the FTC, there's a good chance that that person will get the 3 votes from the booted members (regardless of what Shan said about Ricard having her vote). That's a pretty good headstart to a majority. 

I agree that Danny is a big threat because he seems very likeable.  He doesn't seem to have argued or butted heads with anyone.  I'm not sure how much him being an ex-NFL player will really come into play though.  In the earlier seasons, I recall that Gretchen in Original Recipe Season One targeted Joel because she thought he was Rich.  And in Thailand, everyone was all jelly when they saw Brian's video from home and saw his grand piano.  But voted for him to win anyways.

In Heroes vs. Villains, Sandra and Parvati were two of the four previous winners, and they finished first and second.  So I don't know if "they don't need the money" comes into play so much anymore.  Conversely, I don't think we have heard in any recent season that someone voted for a particular person to win because they really need the money, have we?

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"Outside money" is a really fun rabbit hole to fall down. It seems to vary with more criteria than just presumed bank account. I may take the thought to "Past Seasons" if I can generate some words on it...or to a dissertation committee if anyone wants to fund a media studies PhD. Bueller? Bueller?

I was really surprised to see Shan smuffed this ep. I was sure she was going to pull something to get free of the closing trap. Like stand still and be quiet a moment and let the rest shoot themselves in the feet. But no, everyone did as planned and the presumed winner fell early. 

I can't say I'll miss her. I've felt the show spent too much time on her and not enough on some of the others already. But she was playing hard and talked a lot about how she was playing, so at least the editors had something to work with. 

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On 11/29/2021 at 2:43 PM, xfuse said:

You will never(I know never say never) get a group of white people saying 'lets vote out all the black people.' Survivor and the general public will call it racist.  They may vote out a few black people in a row but they will never say it and Jeff would put a stop to it if it looks like that somehow. 

I tend to doubt that any contestants will be so tone-deaf/blatant to say "let's vote out all the black people" but if there is a scenario where there's an alliance of black people calling the shots, will they actually have to say the quiet part out loud? Would people blame them if they did (assuming they didn't use utterly offensive terms in the process or the like)?

Had this season's AAA held strong, the remaining contestants would have been fools to not realize that the danger that represented and that it was in their best interest to target the members of the AAA alliance.

Certainly, some people would look at the voting of several black people in a row as racist regardless of what rationales the contestants might give for it. And such people could be right or they could be wrong, depending on the circumstances. It's not as though racially-minded gameplay and smart gameplay are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Again, I find it interesting that explicitly saying "let's target the women/men" is a typical part of Survivor gameplay in the dozen or so seasons I've watched all or part of but not "let's target the _______ ethnicity." It might be because Survivor has always had a gender division where you allying by gender was a viable strategy (50/50 from the start, I assume), or it might be because we feel differently about race than gender.

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