Ponderosa for season 41

[peachmangosteen]

That was definitely true of the Black alliance on Big Brother. That and the fact that BB is usually pretty racist and has had no Black winners. Survivor has only had 4.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

I am also pondering how the COVID situation and all the other political turmoil of 2020 influence Shan and the other African American members game play. The social isolation of COVID and the level of racial justice pressure in 2020 could very well have contributed to the strong sense of needing/wanting an AA Alliance this season. Shan and DeShawn both seemed to be very torn about stabbing each other in the back. Liana and Shan were pretty quick to bond. I think the feelings/emotions behind all of this was 100% there and I wonder if part of it is that this particular season was positioned at a point in time that took these strong feelings and emotions and brought them into game play.  

I'm pretty sure Shan referenced "this past year" as a reason why she felt forming an alliance of African American players was important and meaningful, both in the episode where it formed, and in this most recent episode where she was conflicted about upholding it. I don't recall if it was explicitly stated what about "this past year" made it so, but the subtext was pretty clear.

[MsTree]

What am I missing with Shan's statement of pulling out a win for the black community? Haven't POC already won Survivor on previous seasons?

Sandra won twice and unless I'm mistaken Vescepia (sp?) also won her season.

[seacliffsal]

I think it's because Shan wants to be the most important player ever in all of Survivor...

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, MsTree said:

What am I missing with Shan's statement of pulling out a win for the black community? Haven't POC already won Survivor on previous seasons?

I mean, only 4 Black people have won out of 40 winners.

[ProfCrash]

Sandra is Hispanic, not AA. I suspect that many POC would roll their eyes at that term and would let people know that there are very real differences between different cultures and histories that means that Sandra's win was different then Vecepia's win or Jeremy's win which are different then Yul or Natalie's wins.

And they would be correct. I am sure that Erika and Nasser have their own issues based on their color but the stereotypes are going to be different then the stereotypes associated with AA and Hispanics. A quick scroll through Survivor winners would point to their being fewer Asian American winners then African American winners but part of that could be that not every season has included Asian Americans and every season has include African Americans.

The point being that POC is not a great term because there are very different experiences and stereotypes associated with different cultures. Not that any of them are acceptable but that people from different cultural backgrounds are not automatically going to have the same experiences or carry the same baggage.

[Valerie]

I mentioned in last night's episode thread, but the full term is BIPOC for Black, Indigenous, People of Colour (basically everyone else lumped together). It does bother me that the term is broad enough that it excludes other POC when used to speak about a certain part of POC (in this case, black) WHILE SITTING IN FRONT OF OTHER POC (Erika is Filipino, I think Ricard is Hispanic? Naseer, etc).

One of those weird terms that is meant to be inclusive but... actually isn't at all.

[treeofdreams]

7 hours ago, MsTree said:

What am I missing with Shan's statement of pulling out a win for the black community? Haven't POC already won Survivor on previous seasons?

Sandra won twice and unless I'm mistaken Vescepia (sp?) also won her season.

Earl, for AA winners

In fact, that season was an AA final three

Edited December 2, 2021 by treeofdreams

[meep.meep]

5 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I mean, only 4 Black people have won out of 40 winners.

That's 10% which is close to the 12.6% of Black people in the full population of the US.  If there is no bias, that's what you would expect.

[Lamima]

Liana's Ponderosa:

 

 

[Hera]

41 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Liana's Ponderosa:

I'm surprised at Shan in this video, though I suppose I shouldn't be, given how sad she looked at Tribal Council. But all we saw was Shan grilling Liana (and how did she think Liana was in on that vote?), and giving her life advice with Tiffany. I thought there would be some time devoted to the Liana-Shan bond, but it seemed like Liana was hanging out with Tiffany and Evvie more.

[ProfCrash]

 Xander is getting no votes if he makes it to final tribal. What the hell happened out there?

[Straycat80]

I was expecting some big Shan and Lianna reunion but it seemed like she was actually closer to Tiffany and Evvie. 

[Haleth]

Liana is gorgeous.  I too was surprised to see her hanging out with Evvie and Tiffany rather than Shan.  The coconut segment was too funny.  Good for you, ladies.  

Poor Naseer, stuck at the resort with all those chatty women.  He's probably wanting to be voted off that island too.

[ProfCrash]

Shan’s reaction to Liana’s being voted out tells me that Shan is pissed and not a happy Ponderosa person. She is likely a negative vibe to be around at the resort and still fully stuck in game mode. I liked Liana’s perspective on things, everyone was mourning the loss of their game in their own way but Shan was the only one who seemed to be in your face about it. 

I suspect Nasser is more on his own as well. He didn’t really have a relationship with the others who have been voted out. Tiffany, Liana, and Evvie seem to have a good vibe from their time in yellow together. Shan appears to be stuck in game mode. Nasser seems to be fine but probably chilling.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

Shan’s reaction to Liana’s being voted out tells me that Shan is pissed and not a happy Ponderosa person.

Interesting. I can't wait to watch. I was trying to read her face at the last tribal council. To me it looked more angry than sad to be on the jury. I honestly can't recall anyone else ever sitting in jury with that exact expression - almost simmering rage at being out of the game, although her expression appeared to soften later. 

My daughter and I were discussing last night what her parishioners are making of her on this show. At the very least, they know to tread carefully when she starts humming her evil song. I don't know if she's hummed it in Ponderosa but I laughed out loud when others caught her unconsciously humming it to herself before she was voted out. I honestly don't think she knew she was doing it. 😁 Funny but creepy. 

[fishcakes]

It's interesting that while Liana was on her way to Ponderosa, she said she was looking forward to seeing Evvie and Tiffany. Then she said it again later and added almost as an afterthought Naseer and Shan. If Liana and Shan's bond really wasn't what we were led to believe then it's a shame that Liana's game got blown up for it. Anyway, I like her at Ponderosa and she has a great perspective on her time out there.

[Nashville]

12 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I was expecting some big Shan and Lianna reunion but it seemed like she was actually closer to Tiffany and Evvie. 

 

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Liana is gorgeous.  I too was surprised to see her hanging out with Evvie and Tiffany rather than Shan. 

Not that surprising to me.  Evvie/Liana/Tiffany had been coexisting (and co-plotting) together on Yase (Yellow) since Day 1.  Liana and Shan’s “moment” aside, they’ve only face-to-faced since the merge.  I’m sure that Yase-cultivated relationship runs much deeper on a personal level.
Same with Nasser too, for that manner - but Nasser has a penis, so he doesn’t count.  😆

[KaveDweller]

 

On 12/2/2021 at 9:49 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I mean, only 4 Black people have won out of 40 winners.

Do we know what percentage Black people have made out of the total contestants? Some seasons only had 1-2 Black contestants, so if they only make up 10% of total contestant, 4 winners is not surprising.

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Some seasons only had 1-2 Black contestants, so if they only make up 10% of total contestant, 4 winners is not surprising.

But that's also a problem lol.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 12/2/2021 at 2:43 AM, MsTree said:

What am I missing with Shan's statement of pulling out a win for the black community? Haven't POC already won Survivor on previous seasons?

Sandra won twice and unless I'm mistaken Vescepia (sp?) also won her season.

There have been four African-American winners (Vecepia, Earl, Jeremy and Wendell), a Latina two-time winner in Sandra and an Asian winner in Yul. (It's possible that some of the other winners were mixed ethnicities or I'm forgetting some).

But it hypothetically would not need to be a groundbreaking win by an African-American contestant to be raise the spirits of African-Americans. For instance, when another African-American is elected president, it will presumably still be uplifting to many African-Americans despite Obama having already broken that barrier.

On 12/2/2021 at 2:15 PM, meep.meep said:

That's 10% which is close to the 12.6% of Black people in the full population of the US.  If there is no bias, that's what you would expect.

There are different ways to cut the stats, I'm sure, that could have African-Americans doing better or worse than their counterparts from other races or than what one might expect. 

For instance, the percentage of Black Survivor players/All Survivor players overall is probably somewhere between 12-15 percent at a guess. This season, there were 6 Black Survivor players (Eric, J.D., Shan, Liana, Danny and Deshawn) out of 19 contestants, or just under 33 percent. My sense is in the past, there were at least two out of 20.   

If Black people make up 15 percent of contestants but "only" 10 percent of winners, then that would tend to support the argument that Black contestants are underrepresented among the winners.

I would say we are talking about such small numbers, though, pure stats don't matter that much.

[CraftyHazel]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There have been four African-American winners (Vecepia, Earl, Jeremy and Wendell), a Latina two-time winner in Sandra and an Asian winner in Yul. (It's possible that some of the other winners were mixed ethnicities or I'm forgetting some.)

Natalie Anderson is Sri Lankan American, so there have been two Asian winners.

[MsTree]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There are different ways to cut the stats, I'm sure, that could have African-Americans doing better or worse than their counterparts from other races or than what one might expect. 

For instance, the percentage of Black Survivor players/All Survivor players overall is probably somewhere between 12-15 percent at a guess. This season, there were 6 Black Survivor players (Eric, J.D., Shan, Liana, Danny and Deshawn) out of 19 contestants, or just under 33 percent. My sense is in the past, there were at least two out of 20.   

If Black people make up 15 percent of contestants but "only" 10 percent of winners, then that would tend to support the argument that Black contestants are underrepresented among the winners.

Appreciate all the stats, but who are we blaming for them? What if only a certain percentage of AA's audition for Survivor? And what if that percentage passed the audition and it still only amounts to, say 25%?  So obviously, out of that 25% it's a no-brainer to figure out that AA's are going to be underrepresented just by the sheer figures alone. That is no one's fault and shouldn't be looked at in a negative light. IOW, you can't take blood from a stone. It's just a fact.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, MsTree said:

Appreciate all the stats, but who are we blaming for them? What if only a certain percentage of AA's audition for Survivor? And what if that percentage passed the audition and it still only amounts to, say 25%?  So obviously, out of that 25% it's a no-brainer to figure out that AA's are going to be underrepresented just by the sheer figures alone. That is no one's fault and shouldn't be looked at in a negative light. IOW, you can't take blood from a stone. It's just a fact.

To be clear, even assuming for argument's sake that AA are underrepresented in Survivor in general or among the winners (which as I suggested, we don't know), I at least don't think it is necessarily something to "blame" anyone or anything for. It is not inherently a problem that more AAs haven't won Survivor or don't get cast or whatever. 

To take your example where AAs apply to Survivor at twice their population rate in the overall population but only get selected to compete at their percentage rate, there could be many valid reasons why. 

That said, the choices of both TPTB and the players themselves probably shape Survivor's outcome on race in ways that other games probably do not. 

To take pro sports as an example, it's fairly safe to say that the NFL and NBA are far more disproportionately black than America as a whole (Google tells me about 59 and 72 percent, respectively and the NFL figure could be higher because about 10 percent of people identified as biracial). Meanwhile, the NHL and Nascar are disproportionately white (only 3 percent of NHL players are non-white, and Nascar has a single active black driver and has only had 8 black drivers in its history).

But it's also a fairly safe assumption that these results are not directly caused by the management of these teams, but more the collective preferences of potential competitors. Presumably, each sport would take as many qualified competitors as they could, regardless of skin color, because the powers that be have economic incentives to succeed.

TPTB on Survivor don't have this mandate to succeed by bringing in the best competitors regardless of background. They aren't looking first and foremost for the best Survivor players they can, period. They are pretty consciously looking for a mix of contestants that they think will bring the biggest audience so they can sell that audience to sponsors. TPTB would not possibly cast a season of Survivor with demographics skewed too much toward or against any group. They seem to be operating under the premise that if there are too few or too many of this group, that would affect viewership and therefore sponsorship. (To be fair to them, they also may have some sense of social responsibility in thinking that the casting should be diverse.).

Then there is the component of the players. In sports and many reality shows, there is a limit to how much race or other factors could matter during the competition itself. It doesn't matter what race Usain Bolt or Tom Brady or whoever is in so far as whether they will win their respective contests. What matters is their performance. Same with reality shows. The Amazing Race or fill-in-the-blank cooking show at the end of the day aren't meaningfully affected by the race of the competitors. Sure, an African-American team might get filled with pride during a leg in Africa, and maybe the locals give an extra boost that they might not have given to a non AA team (or the flipside might be true if they are in a country that is biased against AA). But at the end of the day, the winning team is going to have little to do with race.

By contrast, the way to win Survivor is to get enough of the players to like, respect or fear you the right amount so that they don't vote you off as a threat, but that they will vote you as sole survivor. 

It seems almost axiomatic because of Survivor's being a social game that it is going to import the subjective preferences/biases of its players. It wouldn't matter if 99 percent of viewers thought that, say, Russell Hantz was the most brilliant Survivor player ever. He had to convince the people he was playing with to award him the title, and he failed to do so because he ruffled too many feathers. 

So unlike sports and other reality shows, there's a whole lot more subjectivity that enters into the picture as to who is the winner. Some of that subjectivity, I would argue, is going to be along racial lines. It seems likely that some players are going to instinctively form positive or negative impressions of others, based in part because of race. Some players are going to judge others' game play at least in part because of race. This is not to say that anyone straight up was "I'm voting for X because of his ethnicity." But it's certainly plausible to me that people unconsciously think of X as sneaky, lazy, dumb etc. (for example) not because the person has actually done sneaky things (or more sneaky things than other players, but because there is a stereotype about this or that ethnicity being sneaky, lazy, dumb, etc. 

In addition to numbers, TPTB also screen for types. In doing so, they could be expressing explicit or implicit bias about race and other factors that could in turn make it more difficult for an AA to win.

[peachmangosteen]

5 hours ago, MsTree said:

What if only a certain percentage of AA's audition for Survivor? 

They recruit people, so this shouldn't really be an issue.

[tvfanatic13]

Serious question- How did Liana’s acne clear up so fast? 

[ProfCrash]

10 hours ago, tvfanatic13 said:

Serious question- How did Liana’s acne clear up so fast? 

I would think some of the skin stuff that we see is a reaction to a bug bite or something that can heal quickly if not scratched and treated with an ointment. They do get medical help out there and I can see them giving ointment to decrease damage from bug bites and the like. I know the first bunch of seasons they didn't and people ended up with scars and needing treatment when they got home. I suspect that it was deemed better to deal with the issues out there so there was less damage done and such care doesn't affect game play so why not?   

[Nashville]

15 hours ago, tvfanatic13 said:

Serious question- How did Liana’s acne clear up so fast? 

 

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I would think some of the skin stuff that we see is a reaction to a bug bite or something that can heal quickly if not scratched and treated with an ointment. They do get medical help out there and I can see them giving ointment to decrease damage from bug bites and the like. I know the first bunch of seasons they didn't and people ended up with scars and needing treatment when they got home. I suspect that it was deemed better to deal with the issues out there so there was less damage done and such care doesn't affect game play so why not?   

Not to mention, the Ponderosa occupants have access to a wide range of amenities not available to the contestants still in the game - including things like cosmetics, and coverup.  😉

[KaveDweller]

On 12/4/2021 at 9:22 AM, peachmangosteen said:

But that's also a problem lol.

Well, yes, of course. It's just a different problem......

 

[LanceM]

Danny's ponderosa....  and yes Shan is still pissed and not understanding why Danny voted her out

 

 

[Haleth]

Aww, what a sweet guy!  Loved the rugby scene.

Shut up, Shan.

[ProfCrash]

Interesting. They didn’t show him hanging out with any other Survivors after the first meal. Normally there is a bit with someone else. I guess we didn’t really get that with Shan or Naseer either. So the Blue tribe seems to be less bonded then yellow, because we have seen Evvie, Liana, and Tiffany hanging together.

Nasser’s solo stuff made sense, he was the only guy and the only blue tribe. Shan had no real connection with any of the others at Ponderosa. But Danny seemed like a chill enough guy that we would see some pool time or something with some of the others, probably Tiffany or Evvie. 

As predicted Shan and Liana are upset. I mean, I get it, they don’t like losing but they fail to see the roll that they played in that chain of events. Shan still doesn’t get why telling Ricard was problematic. I doubt that Liana understands why telling Shan was problematic. Shan fell back on the “Ricard was my number 1” which is why Danny and DeShawn wanted him gone. 

[suebee18]

What an amazing guy! I love him and it would be great if fox, espn, SOMEBODY hired him to talk about ANYTHING! 

SHUT UP SHAN! Let the man eat in peace, you selfish, hypocritical, bitter betty. She has no ability or interest in viewing things from anyone else’s point of view, so sad. But enough about her!

Danny, enjoy the Ponderosa experience, you earned it and played the game with your integrity intact. 

[Nashville]

11 hours ago, LanceM said:

Danny's ponderosa....  and yes Shan is still pissed and not understanding why Danny voted her out

 

 

Danny was great - I think he had one of the best attitudes about the game.  Shan should lay off the fucking caffeine; her game is over, and it’s past time she got used to the idea.  
Shan is still seeking validation for her notions that (a) every move she made was totally reasonable and “right” and (b) the rest of the 4 were totally “wrong” to vote her out when they did.  The thing is, Shan is right - but only if you view the game solely from her perspective.  Shan doesn’t seem capable of comprehending other folks just may have game perspectives not 100% based on What Works for Shan.  Betcha Shan will still be bitching about the “wrongness” of her elimination a year from now - or 5 years - or 10.  🙄

 

P. S.: and I don’t think it’s Shan truly doesn’t understand why they voted her out - she just doesn’t want to accept it.

[Hera]

Shan appears to be ruining the atmosphere at Ponderosa for everyone else, especially as her former allies come in. It's also annoying because it's clear that her beef is with Deshawn, but since he's not there, Liana and Danny are the ones getting the earful. I will give her that it has been a lot less time for her than it has been for us (in the game, she's only four days out from getting voted out, while for us it's been two weeks), but still. That level of bitterness is very unappealing and I can't imagine it's fun for Tiffany, Evvie, and Naseer to sit there and listen to someone who was in the game longer than they were bitch about how she didn't get as far as she felt she deserved to.

I loved the segment of Danny learning rugby. I think the guy teaching him was as delighted to be there as Danny was—from my own personal observation, there seems to be a lot of mutual curiosity between rugby players and American football players. It's a shame there weren't more people so that he could try playing a game.

[fishcakes]

Shan thinks if she talks the most, then she's in the right. Her saying she gave Ricard a heads-up as a courtesy to her number one, but that she was still locked in with the alliance of 4, shows that she'll spout any kind of nonsense, figuring she can just wear the other person down. She really is ruining the vibe at Ponderosa.

Edited December 10, 2021 by fishcakes

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Shan fell back on the “Ricard was my number 1” which is why Danny and DeShawn wanted him gone. 

I wish someone would explain to her that this is exactly why she had to be taken out. No one wants to hear that someone else was her #1. 

[Nashville]

14 hours ago, Haleth said:

I wish someone would explain to her that this is exactly why she had to be taken out. No one wants to hear that someone else was her #1. 

Thinking ANYBODY could explain ANYTHING to Shan is your first mistake….  😁

 

[ProfCrash]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

Thinking ANYBODY could explain ANYTHING to Shan is your first mistake….  😁

 

Truth.

[seacliffsal]

Yeah, I agree-Shan totally thought the rest of her alliance (perhaps with the exception of Ricard) was beneath her and that she was far more intelligent and strategic.  She probably can't let it go because she cannot envision a world in which her alliance members, as well as the non-alliance players, could ever out-strategize her own plans.  Just like she told us that she pretends to listen to her church members and then does what she wants anyway, she probably thought that she would be able to do what she wanted in the game without anyone realizing what she was doing.

[LadyChatts]

I think Shan doesn't like to admit she got outplayed big time.  She was having fun being the big mastermind over at Ua, but that changed once the merge happened, and I don't think she caught up to the reality that it was no longer her way.  Calling Ricard her #1 justifies voting her off.

[ByaNose]

On 12/10/2021 at 4:30 AM, Nashville said:

Thinking ANYBODY could explain ANYTHING to Shan is your first mistake….  😁

 

Word.

[KaveDweller]

On 12/9/2021 at 1:27 PM, fishcakes said:

Shan thinks if she talks the most, then she's in the right. Her saying she gave Ricard a heads-up as a courtesy to her number one, but that she was still locked in with the alliance of 4, shows that she'll spout any kind of nonsense, figuring she can just wear the other person down. She really is ruining the vibe at Ponderosa.

She is clearly still very bitter about losing. She is right that voting her out led to Liana and Danny getting voted out, but she can't acknowledge that her telling Ricard about the plan to get him out is what led to her getting voted out. She just insists she was right to do that. Super annoying.

I get that it must be hard to lose, but I like it better when people are a good sport about it and can turn off the game.

[JudyObscure]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:56 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

There have been four African-American winners (Vecepia, Earl, Jeremy and Wendell), a Latina two-time winner in Sandra and an Asian winner in Yul. (It's possible that some of the other winners were mixed ethnicities or I'm forgetting some).

That's the first thing I read this morning and it literally gave me cold chills. We're well into the 21st Century and some people are still judging every single person by the amount of pigment in their skin, labelling them, and passing  judgement accordingly.

I know my opinion of this sort of thing is not a popular one, but I do think you should be aware that it exists.

[Hera]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

On 12/6/2021 at 1:56 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

There have been four African-American winners (Vecepia, Earl, Jeremy and Wendell), a Latina two-time winner in Sandra and an Asian winner in Yul. (It's possible that some of the other winners were mixed ethnicities or I'm forgetting some).

That's the first thing I read this morning and it literally gave me cold chills. We're well into the 21st Century and some people are still judging every single person by the amount of pigment in their skin, labelling them, and passing  judgement accordingly.

What judgment was passed in the original quote? It looked to me like @Chicago Redshirt was simply listing the ethnicities of past non-white winners within the larger context of trying to determine if Black players were truly underrepresented among winners. What am I missing?

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Hera said:

What judgment was passed in the original quote?

To me there's an underlying assumption that the white winners were undeserving and the show was being unfair in some way.  If that's not his point then what is his point?

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

If that's not his point then what is his point?

I'd assume to point out the number of times non-white people have won. Seems pretty simple to me.

[ByaNose]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'd assume to point out the number of times non-white people have won. Seems pretty simple to me.

That’s what I took from it. The stats. 

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'd assume to point out the number of times non-white people have won. Seems pretty simple to me.

Exactly.  That's why it disgusts me.  Why keep track of winners according to skin color at all?  That sort of thing is my definition of racist.

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

That's the first thing I read this morning and it literally gave me cold chills. We're well into the 21st Century and some people are still judging every single person by the amount of pigment in their skin, labelling them, and passing  judgement accordingly.

I know my opinion of this sort of thing is not a popular one, but I do think you should be aware that it exists.

Saying "X number of Survivor winners are of this ethnicity" is not judging even them by the color of their skin, let alone "every single person."

I have passed no judgment on them or Survivor. Saying that X people of a given ethnicity have won does not imply that there should be more or fewer, or that the race of the people who won somehow made their wins better or worse or anything of the sort. There is no more difference in terms of a value judgment between saying "1 of Survivor's winners is Asian" and "1 of Survivor's winners is named Yul."

If it makes you feel better, I will explicitly say that I do not believe generally speaking that any of the winners were more or less deserving because of their race and I don't believe that Survivor or most of its contestants consciously skewed the game based on race the way some do based on gender. To the extent some have, I don't think that there is anything "wrong" with that any more than I think there is something "wrong" about people forming the men's and women's alliances that come up pretty regularly. 

If you want to read into my mentioning a statistic about the race of Survivor winners something blood-curdling, chilling, disgusting, etc., I can't really stop you, but I would have to wonder how you fare when faced with the manifold manifestations of racism in the real world.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt