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All Episodes Talk: Charmed and Wiccan

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I've seen S7. You mean the Phoebe in the Drake period?

I meant that the adorable, childish side of Phoebe is still occasionally present in S3 (even when she's busy betraying her sisters).

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It's always kind of a double-edged sword when a show keeps a actress/actor around just because the creator + audience likes her/him. Sometimes it works: Aaron Paul was crucial to Breaking Bad and he was supposed to die in S1. Others it ends up like Dana Delaney on Desperate Housewives: the writers clearly have nothing for them to do so they have the character do nothing and then go crazy (just like they did with JM here). 

I'm about to start S1 and I'm sooo excited. It's supposed to be Charmed at its' purest.

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I'll take your word that you could still see the adorable childish side of Phoebe after that - I definitely didn't see it, but I can admit to being biased.  What could've been counted adorable before the betrayal became annoying afterwards.

With them taking away Phoebs' adorable childish side to turn her into the middle child, it's a shame that Paige didn't become the adorable childish one instead of the ditzy annoying one.

Yes, I specifically meant 'Show Ghouls' - the only post-'Sleuthing with the Enemy' episode when I saw my Phoebs again.

I *so* wish Cole's role (three episodes) and Drake's role (one episode) could've been switched, but unlike you, I'm sure, giving your hatred of JM, I'd want him to play Drake for three season and Billy Zane to play Cole. for three episodes.  We might have gotten to get Phoebs for the rest of the series.

Then again since Phoebe was no longer based on Connie Burge, but instead on Alyssa Milano, probably not...

24 minutes ago, Eva Marie said:

It's always kind of a double-edged sword when a show keeps a actress/actor around just because the creator + audience likes her/him. Sometimes it works: Aaron Paul was crucial to Breaking Bad and he was supposed to die in S1. Others it ends up like Dana Delaney on Desperate Housewives: the writers clearly have nothing for them to do so they have the character do nothing and then go crazy (just like they did with JM here). 

I'm about to start S1 and I'm sooo excited. It's supposed to be Charmed at its' purest.

Yeah, thinking of that and what you just wrote, you're probably right - I probably would've gotten bored with Drake after three seasons.  Connie *so* had the right idea that each boyfriend should've only lasted one season!  It's why I wish Leo had stayed in S1 where he belonged while Andy remained as their friend and never again Prue's boyfriend. As the boy next door, he could've helped them keep a foot in the real world, not just the fantasy world, even after Prue's death. something Darryl couldn't do,

Wow!  You really are jumping around!  Can't wait to see what you think of S1.  I can tell you that like a lot of fans, Prue annoyed the heck out of me in the first half while Phoebs was absolutely my favorite sister, part of why my own favorite "season" is Last Half S1-First Half S2, the only time I loved all three sisters. But my favorite character in S1 was a tie between Patty and Melinda Warren...

Edited by Esmeralda

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I don't hate JM. I just think he was miscast here and I don't seek the type of qualities he has to offer: I need more substance with my stars. With him it's like an intense sugar high followed by a burn-out and inevitable boredom+annoyance.

Michael Weatherby (the warlock priest from S1) is my kind of Cole if there had to be a Cole. I really enjoyed him on Dark Angel and I actually sympathised with his character here - just like with Kyra and Drake. Cole was never sympathetic even for a moment, which is both the writers' and JM's fault. 

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On 4/14/2018 at 5:16 AM, Eva Marie said:

I don't hate JM. I just think he was miscast here and I don't seek the type of qualities he has to offer: I need more substance with my stars. With him it's like an intense sugar high followed by a burn-out and inevitable boredom+annoyance.

Michael Weatherby (the warlock priest from S1) is my kind of Cole if there had to be a Cole. I really enjoyed him on Dark Angel and I actually sympathised with his character here - just like with Kyra and Drake. Cole was never sympathetic even for a moment, which is both the writers' and JM's fault. 

Guess like lot of other fans who liked the way JM played Cole, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I blame my Cole hatred on the writers a lot more than on JM - I thought he did a fantastic job playing all the sides of Cole.  The ones who didn't were Drew Fuller and Brian Krause.  Definitely preferred JM's acting over theirs!

Edited by Esmeralda
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Yeah, even with all my ragging on JM, I admit that he's much less limited than most actors with a limited range. Of course he beats Krause with his eyes closed. JM's just a really WEIRD case to assess - that's why I had to watch him in several other things before I made up my mind. 

Second half of S1 is indeed terrific. I'm actually watching it simultaneously with S8, which is proving to be a STRANGE experience... ;-0

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1 hour ago, Eva Marie said:

Yeah, even with all my ragging on JM, I admit that he's much less limited than most actors with a limited range. Of course he beats Krause with his eyes closed. JM's just a really WEIRD case to assess - that's why I had to watch him in several other things before I made up my mind. 

Second half of S1 is indeed terrific. I'm actually watching it simultaneously with S8, which is proving to be a STRANGE experience... ;-0

ROFL!  I've got to try that out someday!

So very glad that you like the second half of S1.  Can't remember if you've watched S2.  What would be your overall reaction to my favorite "season" Last Half S1--First Half S2?

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Oh, i agree! S2 was very, very good. The 1st 2 seasons had the best innocents. The last memorable innocent I can recall is the Muse from S4. 

Question about Leo: was he supposed to die in S1 when he gets shot by the darklighter? I heard something about Holly wanting Krause to stay. Is this because she wanted a wet rag of a screen partner so that her spotlight isn't stolen, I wonder? Because I can't see anything else Brian had to offer. He just blends into the wallpaper!

I've read theories of what would happen is they paired up Piper and Cole instead. In the very unlikely scenario that she wouldn't kill him instantly, they would never work because they're both dominant personalities and they consequently want compliant partners who worship them. That's why their scenes together are some of the most fascinating in the show. Their dynamic is what makes 7 Year Witch into such an offbeat ep.

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3 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

Oh, i agree! S2 was very, very good. The 1st 2 seasons had the best innocents. The last memorable innocent I can recall is the Muse from S4. 

Question about Leo: was he supposed to die in S1 when he gets shot by the darklighter? I heard something about Holly wanting Krause to stay. Is this because she wanted a wet rag of a screen partner so that her spotlight isn't stolen, I wonder? Because I can't see anything else Brian had to offer. He just blends into the wallpaper!

I've read theories of what would happen is they paired up Piper and Cole instead. In the very unlikely scenario that she wouldn't kill him instantly, they would never work because they're both dominant personalities and they consequently want compliant partners who worship them. That's why their scenes together are some of the most fascinating in the show. Their dynamic is what makes 7 Year Witch into such an offbeat ep.

Leo's last episode was supposed to be, love hurts, the penultimate episode, of season 1.  Connie intended to write him out, but, Holly asked her to bring him back in season 2 and  she agreed.  I think that Connie wanted Andy to be the only constant guy in the sisters' lives, since he grew up with them and had a bond with all three. 

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12 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

Leo's last episode was supposed to be, love hurts, the penultimate episode, of season 1.  Connie intended to write him out, but, Holly asked her to bring him back in season 2 and  she agreed.  I think that Connie wanted Andy to be the only constant guy in the sisters' lives, since he grew up with them and had a bond with all three. 

Yeah I've only recently heard that it was Holly who insisted that Brian be brought back - I always heard it was thanks to Ted King not wanting to return and because there had been so much fan mail wanting Brian to return that caused that turn around.  But it seems like every leaving has been shrouded in spin so just like what actually caused Shannen to leave is something we'll never know for sure, ditto for Ted leaving rather than Brian.

 

15 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

Oh, i agree! S2 was very, very good. The 1st 2 seasons had the best innocents. The last memorable innocent I can recall is the Muse from S4. 

I've read theories of what would happen is they paired up Piper and Cole instead. In the very unlikely scenario that she wouldn't kill him instantly, they would never work because they're both dominant personalities and they consequently want compliant partners who worship them. That's why their scenes together are some of the most fascinating in the show. Their dynamic is what makes 7 Year Witch into such an offbeat ep.

I'm so very glad that also liked S2. It not only had the best innocents; it also had the best villains.  My last memorable innocent were the ones who died in the fire in 'Show Ghoul' and also Katya in 'Little Box of Horrors', but I see your point.

I've never heard a theory about matching up Piper and Cole - they seemed to have more of a brother-sister relationship like Phoebe and Leo.  The only I always wanted to see matched with Cole (or Zankou, for that matter) was Prue - with her strong morality stance (the strongest of the sisters which is why the other two became so amoral once she was gone) it would've been interesting to see what she would've thought once she found out the truth about Belthazor since unlike Phoebe, I don't think she'd mix up the lawyer for the demon once she knew about him.

This is all reminding me of something I posted in this thread a while back, my own Dream Charmed.  In case you haven't read it yet, Eva Marie, I'd love to know what you think of it - and ever more, were you to do your own Dream Charmed, what it would be like.

Here's mine:

Quote

My Dream Charmed begins the series by showing the townspeople of Salem, MA getting ready to hang Melinda Warren [Finola Hughes - one of the Charmed Ones says she looks like their mother (who was actually never supposed to be seen). And since I love the way Finola played Patty - my original favorite character and since this doesn't include Paige, she still would be - I’d want her to play Melinda the way the actresses play their characters' past selves in 'Pardon My Past'] as a witch as she tells them her vision of the future Charmed Ones. Even as she drops, we cut to modern-day San Francisco. I just prefer her as a brunette, the way the other Halliwells were.

The rest of Season One is similar to the canon one with some differences, mainly in the backstory and what comes from it. 

Prudence "Prue" Halliwell [Shannen Doherty] has never had a boyfriend because she closed her heart after the death of her mother. Instead she’s been taking care of her younger sisters and her grandmother, Penelope "Penny" Johnson [Jennifer Rhodes - no, in mine, Penny is not a Halliwell – and neither was the sisters' mother, Patricia "Patty"Johnson Halliwell [Finola Hughes], until she married Victor Halliwell [Tony Dennison], who would only be seen in Season One and during the ending when one of the sisters get married. In mine, Halliwell women do *not* keep their maiden name, just like the 20's cousins who were Baxters, Bowens and Russells didn't - Obviously Warren women did *not* keep their maiden name].

Roger [Matthew Ashford] isn’t Prue’s fiancé but just her supervisor, who is fired after their boss Rex Buckland [Neil Roberts] finds out that Roger stole her ideas, so Rex makes her one of the auction house managers instead. Unlike Canon Rex, my Dream Rex is truly the owner of the auction house and has been for a long time, since his secretary, Hannah Webster [Debbi Morgan - the one who played the S4 Seer and who plays her that way, not that horrible parody of a working woman that we saw in S1] is a Seer who saw Prue getting a job there after graduating from college. Hannah never flirts with anyone, especially not Rex - like Rex, she's all business.

Just like Canon Prue, my Dream Prue is a bit stiff, a bit strait-laced, but loosens up as the season goes along, as she feels sympathy for the innocents they are saving [and in mine, "innocent" simply means innocent of the reality of magic - anyone who knows about magic can't be an innocent] and anger at the villains (both male and female, both magical and non-magical) who are after them. 

Piper Halliwell [Holly Marie Combs] is the same as Canon Piper except that she was never a banker…she didn’t have to be, since Prue was the one who took care of Penny, so since graduation from high school, Piper has always worked at Quake, even when she was at cooking school. Otherwise, no need to change her or her and Leonardo "Leo"Wyatt’s [Brian Krause] story. Just like Canon Piper, my Dream Piper is the one who least wants to be a witch, but goes along with her sisters, especially when she sees how much their powers can help people. 

Although Phoebe "Phoebs" Halliwell [Alyssa Milano] was the wild child and moved away to New York after Penny’s death, she found herself there and now wants to go back to school, the reason why she moves back in with her sisters. Just like Canon Phoebe, my Dream Phoebs is the one who finds the Book of Shadows and says the spell that activates their magic, and she’s the one most fascinated with magic. After she finds the Book, she puts off school in order to concentrate on being a witch. She takes temp jobs instead, and through them finds innocents for her and her sisters to save.

She is very surprised when she comes back from New York to find out that her just-as-wild high-school boyfriend is now an inspector with the San Francisco Police Department. Mark Chao [John Cho] discovers her secret during the first episode of the second half of the season after she helps him solve his most baffling case with the help of her premonition, which he sees her receive. Just like Canon Andy, my Dream Mark can accept her as a witch, but not as a wife, at least for now, and since Phoebs is nowhere close to settling down, that’s fine with her, so they just remain lovers, but now she can also tell him about magical cases and he helps the sisters out. His partner, Darryl Morris [Dorian Gregory], is always suspicious and curious as to why Mark knows so much about the cases, but never discovers the sisters’ secret.

I chose John Cho rather than Ted King since Ted looks too old to be the same age as Phoebs, besides liking the idea of one of the stars being Asian-American, since so many San Franciscans are Asian-Americans. This also means that unlike Canon Andy, my Dream Mark never moved to Washington and was never married, but was always just the boy next door… Also, rather obviously it's a different Asian-American who dies in 'Dead Man Dating' and whose ghost falls for Piper, although Mark is the one who helps them figure out who Yama is.

The other major difference is the season finale which combines both 'Love Hurts' and 'Déjà vu All Over Again'. In order to stop the everlasting time loop which always results in the death of Leo's charge, Daisy [Kat Coio - the only time anyone "dies" in mine is when they stay dead...], Piper must let Leo die… Also, rather than Canon Rodriguez, the demon helping the Demon of Time [David Carridine] isn't a demon at all, instead it’s two warlocks…Rex and Hannah. Hannah could foresee the results of the time loops, but couldn't foresee or prevent hers and Rex’s vanquish.

After Leo's death, the Charmed Ones no longer need a whitelighter to guide them which they needed during their first year as witches, and we never hear the word whitelighter again, nor do we ever hear the word Elder (like the first two seasons, they're always referred to as THEY), or, thank God, witchlighter or half-whitelighter. This means that Sam never existed, so neither would Paige. We never need to find out if dead men can sire children, and if they do, if they can pass their powers to their children.


Obviously this changes Season Two, as Piper is the one who mourns her lost love rather than Prue. This is when she goes on strike, just like she did in the beginning of Canon Season Three, and just like then, it's when she's almost the cause of a young girl losing her life that she changes her mind. But unlike Canon Season Three, Leo is never returned… 

Instead Henry Mitchell [Ivan Sergei] moves in next door, halfway through the season, with the following episodes similar to the first ones in Canon Season Two, but unlike Canon Dan, my Dream Henry has no reason to be jealous of Leo...only of Piper's memories of him. Instead, when he finds out that Piper is a witch - the same way Canon Henry did in Canon Season Eight, not how Canon Neighbor Dan did - he also finds out what Leo was, and can accept that, since he respects Piper's decision to let Leo die in order to save an innocent.

Much like Canon Henry in Canon Season Eight (the reason I chose him, since he’s much more like Canon Henry than Canon Neighbor Dan), he decides that he can accept Piper as a witch and Piper finds herself falling for him, big-time, especially because when she’s not saving innocents, he helps her have a normal life as a normal couple, something Leo could never do. We never again hear her whining about wanting a normal life. With Henry’s help, she decides to quit Quake and use the money she’s saved as a manager to start a restaurant of her own - P3.

Meanwhile, Phoebs and Mark continue to solve crimes with the help of her sisters, keeping the focus of the show on innocents, as we see all of the innocents and bad guys that we saw in Canon Season Two, with, of course, the exception of Sam who doesn’t exist. Phoebs and Mark are still lovers, but don’t even consider marriage until Phoebs almost dies trying to save an innocent, a victim of one of the crimes they're trying to solve. Mark realizes that he loves her no matter if she's a witch or not and pops the question, and she accepts. 

We also see another bad guy, although if this was truly the first time we’d see the show, we wouldn’t know it. When the sisters end up having to testify at a trial, Prue takes a liking to Assistant District Attorney Coleridge "Cole" Turner [Julian McMahon], and he returns the favor. But when he asks her out, she refuses. Only after she meets Cupid[Michael Reilly Burke] and becomes his ring, does she open her heart and accept Cole's offer. 

The season finale is an episode similar to “The Honeymoon’s Over”, except, of course, Piper is also part of it, since no one has gone (or could ever go) Up There without suffocating from lack of oxygen. This is when we find out that Cole is indeed trying to kill the sisters. And unlike Canon Charmed, he never turns into 'Dream Belthazor' because my Dream Cole is not half-demon, instead he's a warlock who only pretends to care for Prue and simply wants to discover the sisters’ weaknesses so he can destroy them and take their powers. 

There is no Source or other Big Bad in my Dream Charmedverse — the one who comes closest to being that is my Dream Cole himself, who is more like a combination of Canon Belthazor and Canon Zankou than the half-demon we know, since this one is pure warlock and pure evil - in my Dream Charmedverse, the only demons are "The Demons of..." Even Hecate was a warlock using that name, not a demon. Also in mine, witches are good and warlocks are evil – sorry, in my fantasy (emphasis on fantasy...) world, no grey morality allowed!

The difference is that witches who do evil turn into warlocks (so Phoebe in 'Morality Bites' is a warlock...as are the 20's cousins in 'Pardon My Past' and as is Tuatha) while warlocks who do good (like Brendan Rowe) turn into witches – my Dream Cole just isn’t one of those. Making him half-human ruins him in my eyes the same way making Paige half-whitelighter ruins her.

Unlike Canon Season Two, since there is no 'P3 H20' - no need to show anyone what could happen if a whitelighter falls in love with his charge - Prue never stops working at the auction house, nor does she ever get her astral projection power. Instead all three sisters are gaining better control of their powers (like Phoebs being able to force premonitions by touching an item and closing her eyes) and Piper and Prue can use theirs over larger distances. 

Season Three, the final season of my Dream Charmed, continues to have Mark and Phoebs solving crime while also planning their wedding, so we continue to have the Bad Guy of the Week that I love, while also having the Cole story-arc that most fans love, even if some fans won't like it as much since my Dream Cole never truly loves a Charmed One, but does have a lot of chemistry with Prue. Meanwhile, Piper and Henry are becoming closer, and Prue thinks that so are she and Cole. 

With these exceptions (and Phoebs and Mark not having to fight THEM - who are never shown - in order to get married, since unlike Canon Leo, my Dream Mark isn't dead), the season works pretty much like the canon one except that Piper never gets her explosion power and Phoebs never levitates.

Mark and Phoebs’ wedding happens halfway through the season, working much like Canon Leo and Canon Piper’s so that Patty and Penny can be part of it, although there’s also plans for a big, huge public church wedding later on, since unlike Canon Leo, my Dream Mark isn’t dead. 

But rather than Canon Prue interrupting it, it’s Shax [Michael Bailey Smith] who suddenly appears. The sisters vanquish him, but when they check the Book of Shadows, they find that he is just a warlockian hitman, so there is someone a lot worse out there. Phoebs tells Mark that she loves him and still wants to marry him, but only after they find and vanquish Shax’s boss… 

The rest of the season works out similar to the canon season except, of course, there are no honeymooners, Phoebs and Mark continue to work on saving innocents, and Prue eventually finds out that the true evil is Cole. In the grand finale, they battle and vanquish him. 

The Angel of Destiny [Dakin Matthews] shows up, and with Melinda Warren's blessing, the sisters decide to give up their powers so they can live normal lives, although if any of them have three daughters, they would become the new Charmed Ones. Prue finally decides to quit Buckland's so she can try to live her own dream - that of being a photographer - something we've seen signs of since the series premiere...; Piper is considering marrying Henry while happily running her restaurant; and Phoebs deciding to go back to college and become an inspector herself so she can continue to help Mark and Darryl solve crimes, even without her powers, which sets up their future spin-off, a regular police procedural.

Only then do we see the big grand church wedding as Phoebs and Mark are married, the last scene of the series.
 

So, Eva Marie? What do you think?  I have a hunch it's a bit too much JM for you, so if you want to think of him as Zankou (Oded Fehr) or anyone else, go for it.  I just prefer Cole the way he did - strong and evil, not wimpy, weak and good.

 

I also have a longer, full eight-season version, but in order to do that, I had to let it go ahead and jump the shark (which mine never did) by including these as the rules:

- You have to have a sister die... and three sisters end up still alive at the end. (I prefer both Piper and Phoebe dying at the end and Paige and Leo left to raise any kids.)

- There has to be children. (I prefer there being none so the focus remains on the sisters, with the show not jumping the shark.)

- Dead men can sire children and pass on their powers to them. (That will never make sense to me, despite it happening in my favorite episode 'Morality Bites', another reason I wish my favorite episode had never been aired.)

- Demons can mate with mortals. (Witches should be able to mate with warlocks – demons are a different species.)

I'll leave it up to you, Eva Marie, if you want to read that version.... 

 

But I'm very *very* curious to know that if you've watched all eight seasons now, how would YOU rewrite Charmed?

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Oh no, still haven't even touched the 2nd half of S5 + S6.

In fact, this is the 1st time I've given this much leeway to a show I'm not crazy about. I'm soldiering through it mainly for nostalgic and fandom reasons. I feel like the female fans have put in a lot more work into the standing of this show than the creators and I'm honouring that work (as well as that of the actresses). I essentially view this whole show as a vehicle for the original trio of stars and a much needed excuse for women to connect online.

I've also noticed that people usually pit Buffy vs Charmed, while my personal favourite among the contemporaries in a similar genre would be Dark Angel - because it was the weirdest (no wonder it didn't last) and had the only straight romance I was ever invested in. In my fanfic world I'd mesh together the realms of Dark Angel and Charmed (in large part because DA had the superior direction and this is what drags Charmed down the most).

Edited by Eva Marie

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Ah!  So you were mainly going after the JM appearances and then back to the beginning.  Gotcha.  Although why you did S8 I'll never understand.

I have to admit I've never heard of Dark Angel, so now I'd really like to see how you'd mix that up with Charmed since the DA parts would all be new to me. 

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Crikey mamacita, is this new reincarnation of Cupid a stunner or what?!! He just made S8 for me. Who the hell is this guy?? Plenty of pretty men on this show, but this one just makes your eyes water@!

Edited by Eva Marie

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Dark Angel is sci-fi - not magic, but I kinda mash the genres together when they're female-driven (due to the scarcity). Also, it's be cool to see a production where both sci-fi and magic exist (with kick-ass heroines in both realms). 

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Glancing through your version, Esmeralda, proves my point: that Charmed is very lucky to have such loyal and hard-working fans! They'd deserve royalties from the show in a perfect world.

Yeah, I'd definitely substitute Oded as Cole and yep - he should stay all-out evil with a graceful facade. Yes to dead men never fathering kids (too icky to even think about...). Yes to John Cho sticking around. I'd make my Darryl female and be played by Jenya Lano.

1 point of contention: I LOVE the name Halliwell and vote for it being kept as a matrilineal surname. IRL I'm so against patriarchal naming traditions that I went to the trouble of legally changing my surname to ditch my father's.

Edited by Eva Marie
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4 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

Crikey mamacita, is this new reincarnation of Cupid a stunner or what?!! He just made S8 for me. Who the hell is this guy?? Plenty of pretty men on this show, but this one just makes your eyes water@!

That's Victor Webster. Yeah, he's nice to look at it, just like the three sisters are.  But just like Piper and Phoebe , he's ugly on the inside - a cupid who makes PhoeME ever MORE PhoeME than she was before???  AND THAT'S WHO THE ELDERS "GIVE" HER BECAUSE THEY FEEL SORRY FOR SCREWING UP HER LOVE LIFE when what she needs is a very hard slap of reality??  OH, GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK!

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3 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

Glancing through your version, Esmeralda, proves my point: that Charmed is very lucky to have such loyal and hard-working fans! They'd deserve royalties from the show in a perfect world.

Yeah, I'd definitely substitute Oded as Cole and yep - he should stay all-out evil with a graceful facade. Yes to dead men never fathering kids (too icky to even think about...). Yes to John Cho sticking around. I'd make my Darryl female and be played by Jenya Lano.

1 point of contention: I LOVE the name Halliwell and vote for it being kept as a matrilineal surname. IRL I'm so against patriarchal naming traditions that I went to the trouble of legally changing my surname to ditch my father's.

 

Okay - in my long version of my Dream Charmed, Charlotte is NOT Charlotte Warren - she's Charlotte Halliwell and so are all of her female descendants!  How's that?  That and the fact that you had the three 20's cousins with different last names and Tony Dennison given SCREEN CREDIT as Victor Halliwell is the only reason I changed Grams' name - I HATED her lying about that when it was already set up, having nothing against matrilineal surnames.  I'm still sure that Kern had Piper keep Halliwell just so he could have his Wyatt Halliwell!

I've heard that the reboot is going to include Melinda Warren - wish their last name was going to be Warren while keeping the M's...

Not sure who Jenya Lano is - if she's on Charmed, I'd accept her; if not, do you have a different suggestion?  Would Charisma Carpenter work for you?  Or better - how 'bout Sharon Prosper who played Darryl's wife, Sandra? Then Dorian Gregory could still play her husband...

Otherwise, any other ideas?

4 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

Dark Angel is sci-fi - not magic, but I kinda mash the genres together when they're female-driven (due to the scarcity). Also, it's be cool to see a production where both sci-fi and magic exist (with kick-ass heroines in both realms). 

Afraid I'm not nuts on the idea of mixing up magic with sci-fi - like Piper's power changing from slowing time to manipulating molecules, I'm sure they would end up coming up with a sci-fi explanation for all the powers and I HATE those fan-inspired names that don't properly describe the powers (molecule combustion, anyone, when burning has absolutely nothing to do with Piper's second power - she speeds them up until they separate and explode - still no fire). BUT if you want to do something similar to what I did with my Dream Charmed mixing the two, I'd love to read it.

Edited by Esmeralda

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Piper's power never changed though. It was quite obvious she never at any point manipulated time. She never stopped the world and the passage of time. 

Hence her power only working in one room/area at any one time.

Nicholas knew she was using her powers because he didn't hear all of the clock's chimes because he was frozen (ie. time continued to pass whilst he was frozen). 

That's nothing to do with sci-fi. The time in which Melinda Warren lived it would have appeared time was frozen, but it wasn't. 

Things changed with how Prue's power was portrayed (the milk appearing in the coffee in the pilot as opposed to actually flying through the air and into the cup) but Piper's freezing power didn't change. 

"Combustion" comes from heat. The molecules are forced apart and "explode" due to heat. 

Edited by Lost

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18 hours ago, Lost said:

Piper's power never changed though. It was quite obvious she never at any point manipulated time. She never stopped the world and the passage of time. 

Hence her power only working in one room/area at any one time.

Nicholas knew she was using her powers because he didn't hear all of the clock's chimes because he was frozen (ie. time continued to pass whilst he was frozen). 

That's nothing to do with sci-fi. The time in which Melinda Warren lived it would have appeared time was frozen, but it wasn't. 

Things changed with how Prue's power was portrayed (the milk appearing in the coffee in the pilot as opposed to actually flying through the air and into the cup) but Piper's freezing power didn't change. 

"Combustion" comes from heat. The molecules are forced apart and "explode" due to heat. 

The show never really explored Piper's freezing power, to the fullest. It had a lot of potential for it to grow and change, as Piper became more powerful.  I do think that in time, she would have been able to manipulate time itself.  

I hated the explosion power. I would have preferred Piper be able to manipulate and create fire, as, her offensive power. 

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Well. I've slogged through S8 (almost choked on the overdose of heteronormativity in the finale). 3 kids each? Really!? Not buying that for anyone but Piper. I would've seen Phoebe having just the 1 daughter she was so mad about, and Paige having none (maybe fostering kids Henry finds in desperate need).

The time travel makes no sense unless Grams' and Mum's memory definitely got wiped, because the visit in That 70s Ep would've happened later in Phoebe's gestation. Didn't they also say that changing things in the past was a big no-no in that ep? And now they fix everything BY changing things.

So what happened to Billie & Christie in the end? The whole season feels superfluous.

Edited by Eva Marie

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I think you can see why I think 'Forever Crap', I mean 'Forever Piper', I mean 'Forever Charmed' is Piper's delusion as she dies after the explosion in 'Kill Billie, Vol. 2'.  Either that or Season 8 is her delusion as she dies after the explosion in 'Something Wicca This Way Goes' since no way Prue could teach them how to astral project and actually cast a spell once they get there.  It would be like Piper teaching Paige how to explode things or Phoebe teaching Prue how to have premonitions or Paige teaching Piper how to orb.  And that was Kern's nod to Prue - stealing her power!

You're right - it's totally superfluous.

If you skip Piper having her daughter (she didn't even mention her name), I'd agree with your ending.  I see Phoebe dropping Coop just as soon as she has Ladybug and since Paige and Henry were both adopted, I can see them adopting.  That way you just have the boys and Ladybug no possibility of a new Power of Three since the three are cousins, not sisters.

Although I admit I like the idea of Phoebe having three daughters - after all, it was her heart that Melinda Warren touched when she saw a long line of strong, beautiful daughters - and no sons.

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On 23/04/2018 at 5:39 PM, Apprentice79 said:

The show never really explored Piper's freezing power, to the fullest. It had a lot of potential for it to grow and change, as Piper became more powerful.  I do think that in time, she would have been able to manipulate time itself.  

I hated the explosion power. I would have preferred Piper be able to manipulate and create fire, as, her offensive power. 

Yeah. I think in some time travel episodes they hinted at and played with the idea of what it could grow into but never actually actively put any creative spin on it within the actual development of the show. 

Changes in powers were always influenced by external factors, budget cuts, new cast members, characters leaving etc etc. 

On 25/04/2018 at 11:31 AM, Eva Marie said:

Well. I've slogged through S8 (almost choked on the overdose of heteronormativity in the finale).

So what happened to Billie & Christie in the end? The whole season feels superfluous.

 

I'm not sure what you mean? Heteronormative? The three main characters were heterosexual and had been throughout the show, so what exactly in the finale was too "heteronormative"? 

 

Also, Christy died. Billie killed her by throwing her own fire back to her during her last attempt to attack the Charmed Ones. 

Billie was last seen in a flashforward babysitting for Phoebe, so in some way must've remained a family friend/fellow witch. 

Edited by Lost

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Just read the Charmed centric excerpt from Rose McGowan's book "Brave". It amazes me how little details she recalls, whilst at the same time recalling such minor details such as the first line of dialogue in the fifth season spoken by Leo. Lol. Some sneaky internet research/re-watching disguised as vivid memory in some places. 

I do think Rose is the type of person to exaggerate, especially now, and become extremely bitter about things that weren't really an issue back then. 

She has a lot of valid points and I sympathise with her being trapped in the "Hollywood machine" and I was sad for her about when she hired the stylist and ended up looking absolutely awful. 

But, yeah, I can imagine how incredibly sexist the set could be, given a lot of what made it to screen it shouldn't be surprising to any viewer. 

Interesting how she notes not engaging in the drama that would be "created over nothing" by privileged people who created drama just for the sake of having something "happening" or something to do. It really does echo Doherty's comments about Milano. I think Milano must've caused a lot of pettiness on the set.

But then in the same excerpt she bemoans going insane in the prison of her mind because of the "repetitive routine" basically, going to the same workplace, playing that character in that show. I felt like shaking her and saying "Well, most of us would put that in with the pettiness of Milano as something you should suck up and deal with. Imagine having to make ends meet in a minimum wage job going to the same place and doing the same job day in day out". Some of her criticisms are a little too "privileged white girl" for the readers, despite her trying to distance herself from the spoilt ones. Life can be repetitive for us all. But nobody forced you to sign a 5 year contract. 

 

 

Also, I didn't know she actually dyed her hair red without permission and got told off for it. That was interesting. But I did laugh at her saying the execs had another meltdown that nobody would recognise Holly Marie Combs because she trimmed her bangs. Lmao. Or they would be confused by a slight change in appearance as though the audience aren't humans who can recognise a haircut. The old stale regime of producers is hopefully well on its way out, very archaic and rusty and stubborn in its thinking. 

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On 4/26/2018 at 10:31 PM, Lost said:

 Also, I didn't know she actually dyed her hair red without permission and got told off for it. That was interesting. But I did laugh at her saying the execs had another meltdown that nobody would recognise Holly Marie Combs because she trimmed her bangs. Lmao. Or they would be confused by a slight change in appearance as though the audience aren't humans who can recognise a haircut. The old stale regime of producers is hopefully well on its way out, very archaic and rusty and stubborn in its thinking. 

That's one of my favorite BTS stories from the show, I think. And, I mean, they did a pretty good job of writing it into the plot--I had no trouble believing that Paige, especially at that point in her witch career, would have potion blow up in her face and turn her hair red.

I didn't know that about Holly and her bangs...lol sometimes I wonder if tv execs have ever interacted with any humans outside of the C-suite ever in their lives. I thought Holly looked cute with the bangs in the first season, but I think eventually growing them out was a good thing. With the bangs I thought she looked eerily similar to Neve Campbell in Scream; Neve was also in The Craft, which this show is constantly accused of blatantly ripping off (and Piper/Bonnie share a lot of character traits) so I'd think the show would be happy to put as much distance as possible between the two properties.

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Holly was freaking adorable with the fringe, but she did look very young with it too.

 

In regard to Rose: people throw variations of "privileged white girl" at women who bring up sexism all the time and it only supports the patriarchal narrative.

"Don't complain about loss of abortion rights in the US! Look, there are none at all in El Salvador!"

"Who cares about the pay gap? Look at 3rd World women who can't work for pay at all!"

"Shut up about harassment in well-paid STEM! You could be a Latin American illegal immigrant paid pennies as a maid!"

It's all just a smoke bomb to stop female unity. In fact, something funny happened to me with #Me Too, when all these celebrity women came out with their stories. It's like they suddenly lost all the magic of fame to me - they felt like any female human on the street and I felt connected to them. There is no amount of privilege that can protect womyn from this abuse anywhere. Also, famous women have a voice, so it's commendable when they use it for this purpose. You have to remember that it's "privileged" women in the 1st and 2nd wave who were instrumental in breaking barriers for all of us - simply because they had more opportunity. An exceptionally privileged lady commissioned the Pill. Feminist lecture over and out....

 

Esmeralda, in regard to Cole: most fans seem to be gaga over the whole relationship and see it as a grand romance as well. Only you, I and 1 other fan has ever mentioned that it's a story of prolonged abuse. Majority opinion isn't always the most accurate.

I've seen little bits of Fuller, and he seems to be in the same category as Krause: nothing much to offer. The reason that neither of them annoy me the way JM does is that they did not get the long list of leading man gifts from mother nature like JM did. To me, natural ability comes with a responsibility to use it well. JM squandered it spectacularly. Instead of waiting for some worthwhile vehicle to come along (which he could afford with his posh background), he jumped on a bottom-feeder offering  which would classify as 100 hours of misogynist hate speech in a just world. I cannot get that sewer content back out of my head, so it retroactively ruined whatever limited goodwill I had towards him in this show originally. All of his sex appeal went "Poof!" once I heard him spew and perform relentless MRA nonsense on his next job. He now seems slimy, ugly and profoundly unethical. Not altogether bright either, because he had the nerve to call that stuff well-written...

Holly's made me proud however. I'm really enjoying Pretty Little Liars, and she now holds the remarkable record of having starred in 2 of the longest-running shows with all-female leads. She's also a truly talented chameleonic actress because her character on that show is completely different in mannerisms to Piper. Quoting Phoebe: "You go, girl!" :-))

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More on Rose:

This is why you don't get film actors to cross over to TV lead without experience. They have no clue on how gruelling TV schedules and how binding & long term the contracts are (esp. at broadcast season length) and it hits them like a brick. There is no time to sit and discuss a scene for an hour over coffee and croissants, like on a film set. Hugh Laurie has actually once said that he wished for an accident to happen to him...just to have a day off filming House (and that's with 2-3 x the salary Rose got).

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On 06/05/2018 at 4:02 PM, Eva Marie said:

More on Rose:

This is why you don't get film actors to cross over to TV lead without experience. They have no clue on how gruelling TV schedules and how binding & long term the contracts are (esp. at broadcast season length) and it hits them like a brick. There is no time to sit and discuss a scene for an hour over coffee and croissants, like on a film set. Hugh Laurie has actually once said that he wished for an accident to happen to him...just to have a day off filming House (and that's with 2-3 x the salary Rose got).

I think she knew, she says that's partly why she didn't want to sign on but she naively felt the show would last no longer than two more seasons after Doherty's departure. Lol. 

But five years is a long period of time to put a gamble on it. 

Edited by Lost

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people throw variations of "privileged white girl" at women who bring up sexism all the time and it only supports the patriarchal narrative.

Assuming this is aimed at me. Your argument is wasted as my "privileged white girl" comment had nothing to do with any kind of comments she made on sexism. 

"But then in the same excerpt she bemoans going insane in the prison of her mind because of the "repetitive routine" basically, going to the same workplace, playing that character in that show. I felt like shaking her and saying "Well, most of us would put that in with the pettiness of Milano as something you should suck up and deal with. Imagine having to make ends meet in a minimum wage job going to the same place and doing the same job day in day out". Some of her criticisms are a little too "privileged white girl" for the readers, despite her trying to distance herself from the spoilt ones. Life can be repetitive for us all. But nobody forced you to sign a 5 year contract."

 

It had everything to do with her relatively petty moaning about a very well paid job.

Yes, we're all entitled to have a little whinge about life and our jobs, but we don't all do it on a public platform. She would do well to remember her privileges in life and think of the audience she's preaching to. It would be like me moaning that my plumbing isn't yet fixed to an audience of homeless runaways. 

The kind of pretentious sh*t she comes out with does nothing to help the "diva" image she pertains to be nothing like. She's almost too good for a bit of hard work. Especially to a show, which I can have sympathy that it was largely repetitive and not very well written, was actually a show which gave her 5 years of work and a career resurgence at a time she said TPTB were trying to keep her off screens. But, tbf to her, she credits the show for that later on in the piece. 

Again, an entirely separate comment/discussion on the sexism/abuse campaigning she's a part of, for which she, and any others, get my full support. 

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My favorite episodes from each season. Season 8 I pretty much entirely hated, but I managed to like the two episodes I listed. 

Season 1:

"Dead Man Dating" (This was the first Charmed episode to make me cry.) 
"When Bad Warlocks Go Good"

Season 2:

"She's a Man, Baby, a Man!" (Prue having a supernatural sex change was fun!)
"Awakened"
"Chick Flick" (As a lover of classic movies, this episode was really enjoyable for me.)
"Apocalypse Not" 

Season 3:

"Coyote Piper" 
"The Good, the Bad and the Cursed"
"All Hell Breaks Loose"

Season 4:

"A Paige from the Past" 
"Saving Private Leo" (This was the second Charmed episode to make me cry.)

Season 5:

"Witches in Tights" (Witches and superheroes? Yes please!)
"Sense and Sense Ability"

Season 6:

"Sword and the City"
"Witchstock"

Season 7:

"Styx Feet Under"
"Charmed Noir"
"Carpe Demon" 
"The Seven Year Witch"

Season 8:

"Run, Piper, Run"
"The Lost Picture Show"

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HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, CHARMED!!!  Twenty years ago today, a new show about three sisters who happened to be witches debuted on The WB.  I'm going to watch my DVD of 'Something Wicca This Way Comes' tonight at 8:00 Central, which is when Charmed first aired here in Minneapolis (but on Wednesdays, not Sundays).

I'm going to keep doing this, watching a new episode each week - well, actually two.  I want to watch them rather than Supergirl and the rip-off, pardon me, the reboot, since I have no interest in either.  No way I'd call the reboot "Charmed"!

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Just finished reading 'The Power of Three', the novel version of 'Something Wicca This Way Comes' and I'm about to watch my DVD version... Here we go...

 

I love seeing the dark bridge, telling us we're in San Francisco - and that cab pulling up...

And Selena...don't you wish we'd seen more of her.

And that lighting candles with her fingers - fire isn't evil!

And, of course, Shadow.  Does anyone else wish it had been Kit instead?

And the stab...


OH!  Holly looks SO young!!  And Prue!  WOW!  What 20 years can do to a person...

Phoebe has no vision...funny, Prue, when she shows up I think she has plenty!  She just lost it when Cole showed  up...

AND THE POINTER MOVES....!  What a place to go into the opening credits!


AMDY!!!  If only...  And Darryl.  I always get a laugh out of him.

Use the athame to direct energy - wish they'd used them for that more.

And here comes Jeremy...more fun when we know who/what he really is...  I wish he'd been Piper's boyfriend longer before they found out who/what he really is.

Certainly wish they didn't make Phoebe out to be such a screwup....because she's anything but after this episode.  Can't help wondering if Connie was a screwup...that's part of the reason why I thought PRUE was based on her and not Phoebe...

Bad timing, Piper...VERY bad timing!

"I don't need a mom anymore; I need a big sister." Wanna bet??  You and Piper proved that in S4-8!

Hi, Kit!  I love that she loves Andy!

Love the love story between Jeremy and Piper - too bad he ended up being a creep!

It moved and I screamed!

She shows the word "attic" and the lights go out!

I feel so much for Piper; she's so frightened!

Waiting for some handyman...oh, they should've!  LEO!

She can't open the door, turns her back and the door opens!  With the light shining on the chest!  Oh, Connie, your writing rocks!  No way the ripoff's reveal is going to be this good!

Don't you wish that Paige had read that spell in order to reconstitute the Power of Three?  And then have the chandelier shake and pour down light rather than just pouring down light on them.

The 3 essentials of magic...something else I wish they'd done for Paige!

Hehehehehe, I love the reference to The Exorcist.

Nope, Piper, nothing's changed except that you three are closer in the picture...  OH!  I should've watched "Prewitched" first!!

Of course Piper talking about cliqued witches makes me think 'All Halliwell Eve'.

Take that, Nancy Drew - your grandmother and mother WERE witches!!

Protectors of the innocent...if only they'd remember that in S4-8.

And here's Roger the creep and his infamous pen...  GRRRRR, I hate him!

Hehehehehehe, I love her just breaking his pen and it squirting in his face!  Like her and the aspirin - wish her power had been more like that and not just ordinary TK.

And Piper and Chef Moore - when EVERYTING freezes!  If that had always happened there'd never be changing her powers to exploding stuff!

Oh, Roger - you lying bastard!

Or if when she squeezed her hands someone choked!! Why did they change so much?

Oh, there's such chemistry between Piper and Jeremy!  They SO should've left his reveal for a later episode!

And Phoebe and the boys on the bikes!

Hi, Kit!

At least she didn't actually get hit.  I was wondering why she wasn't more badly hurt.

And Andy and Prue...I've gotta admit, I really do like this meetcute!

I just like Andy better when he's the boy next door, which he isn't in this episode.

Don't you love what she does with the cream?  Don't you wish she'd that power that way more?

Now here we hear about warlocks and battling evil, so I guess protecting innocents wasn't what the show was truly about.  *sigh*

The idea of as long as they're in the dark about their powers they're safe. So maybe Piper binding the boys' powers wouldn't have kept them in the dark and safe...  

And Piper and Jeremy....and the mention of the Bay Bridge like the earlier mentions of Chinatown...wish they'd done it more.

I love Phoebe having gone to New York to try to find their dad and he shows up in an episode...

So Jeremy knew as soon as Phoebe came back...but him telling her so soon...

And now he's not a warlock, he's a demon!  And, thank God, he freezes and she escapes!

It's lucky she thinks quick!

And Roger actually tries to get Prue to come back...

I love this first spell they cast together - and it doesn't rhyme!

I wonder why that didn't actually kill him.  Was it their bond wasn't strong enough.

Thank God for Phoebe's premonitions!

Can you think of any of the S4-8 demons scarier than Jeremy?

Notice by growing powers it's NOT new powers!!!

I giggle that in 'The Book of Three', Phoebe (aka Connie...) remembers the spell.  Now it's Star Prue!

Campy effect, but fun!  And it doesn't scare me like most scary moveis do.

And Andy's back...oh, yes, great chemistry!

And he gives her his card...  cute.

Kit does like Andy...me, too.

Oh, yes, Piper - this is going to be *very* interesting.

And, of course, the ending with the door...

Oh, yes, I so enjoyed that!!
 

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I always love revisiting the pilot. It shows how much did change from where they started. Which isn't a bad thing, as shows should develop.  I'm not sure if Jeremy is the most creepiest throughout the show. To me it would be that demon who collects his victims by turning them into figurines while they are still alive (in season 4's "Size Matters"). 

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16 hours ago, blueray said:

I always love revisiting the pilot. It shows how much did change from where they started. Which isn't a bad thing, as shows should develop.  I'm not sure if Jeremy is the most creepiest throughout the show. To me it would be that demon who collects his victims by turning them into figurines while they are still alive (in season 4's "Size Matters"). 

I loved everything about the pilot because it was about the sisters' relationship as sisters.  There was no Leo to tell them things via the useless elders, it was the three of them relying on each other to vanquish Jeremy. I loved the hints about how powerful the sisters were going to be, individually and collectively.  It is too bad that the show devolved from that after season 3.  Prue should never have died.  I think that it is when the show jumped the shark culminating with the birth of Wyatt who made the Charmed ones obsolete.. A show about female empowerment  and sisterhood became about the men in their lives and their man pain.  I wished that Andy had stayed on the show, Leo had left for good and Cole had been pure evil hellbent on destroying the power of 3 with Phoebe orchestrating his vanquish via her advanced premonitions. Don't get me started on how the show ruined Phoebe's powers and Piper's powers.  They did nothing to advance their original powers and their second ones were dumb and did not fit them at all. Also, the original power of 3 had awesome chemistry with each other.  

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On 03/04/2018 at 7:24 AM, Eva Marie said:

It's always kind of a double-edged sword when a show keeps a actress/actor around just because the creator + audience likes her/him. Sometimes it works: Aaron Paul was crucial to Breaking Bad and he was supposed to die in S1. Others it ends up like Dana Delaney on Desperate Housewives: the writers clearly have nothing for them to do so they have the character do nothing and then go crazy (just like they did with JM here). 

I'm about to start S1 and I'm sooo excited. It's supposed to be Charmed at its' purest.

I wouldn't say Julian was kept on with nothing to do. 

He was literally the only part of the show's entire 8 year run that felt like it had a purpose. 

At a stretch, you could say his final 12 episodes in season 5 felt "tacked on" due to them completely changing the plot line that was originally planned. But even then him going off the rails was definitely not out of character at that point. 

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Over at a different site, some of us had fun re-watching 'Something Wicca This Way Comes' on its 20th anniversary.  We've decided to continue to do that on each episode's 20th anniversary.  So here's my review of 1x02: I've Got You Under My Skin:

Um, Piper, if you're a chef and not a restaurateur, why the heck did you become owner of a nightclub???

Hehehehehe, love this talk between Piper and Phoebe.

Hehehehehe, Phoebe telling Piper to stop worrying, she'll get wrinkles reminds me of when she told Leo the same thing after he'd lost his wings!

This isn't amongst my favorite episodes because Javna scares the tar out of me and I HATE being scared!

Typical The WB that Prue and Andy are already sleeping together - BEFORE SHE TELLS HIM HER SECRET - sex was just something guys and gals always did no matter if there was true love between them or not.  I have no idea if that's still true (haven't watched a single The CW episode since it became The CW - and that record won't be broken tonight!), but it sure turned me off back then!

Torn!  LOVE that song!

I love the way this show on TV freaks Piper out.

No, Phoebe - she won't be burnt at the stake - you will...

Typical The WB that Prue and Andy are already sleeping together - BEFORE SHE TELLS HIM HER SECRET - sex was just something guys and gals always did no matter if there was true love between them or not.  I have no idea if that's still true (haven't watched a single The CW episode since it became The CW - and that record won't be broken tonight!), but it sure turned me off back then!

Hehehehehe...first date...high school doesn't count...that was a decade ago...hehehehehe

Don't put me in the middle...no, you were born in the middle...!

Anyone believe Prue when she says she's not ashamed?

Don't you just miss these convos between Andy and Darryl?  It just wasn't the same when Darryl had to play both parts.

Hehehehehe, Piper at the church...with Pastor Williams.

I wish Kern had had someone explain that the witches in the Bible were women who were brides of Satan...not quite like becoming one because your mother's one. And your grandmother...and your...well, you get the message.

Ah, Prue interviewing at Bucklands and THAT's when Andy calls???  Why doesn't she tell him to say later...

Oh, am I with you Elle Em - I'll never understand why Prue thought it wasn't okay for Phoebe to use her power when she couldn't control when she gets premonitions while it was perfectly okay for Prue to use hers for personal gain- typical Kern, huh?  All part of why Phoebs was originally my favorite sister while Prue was my least-favorite one.

Oops!  Prue should've taken that meeting as her cue to get out of there!

And that's what will give me nightmares, even as seeing Britney reminds me of the Charmed comics...

OH, I wish it was Rex the Warlock (without Hannah, of course) playing the Cole character with a Charmed One rather than a half-demon!

Wanna go inside?  No! Hehehehehe!

No, idiot.  Only women who give their souls to Satan are evil.  Hereditary witches can be either.

I'll never understand why if she GETS those numbers and the premonitions are from the Elders, shouldn't her helping someone be okay?  Why else would she get them?  Oh, yeah, I forgot. Kern wrote this.

If Prue was really interested in photography, wouldn't SHE be the one who knows all about Stefan?

Why is Prue the only one who can control her powers?  Wouldn't you love to see her powers screw up?

You can see why Piper hates being a witch - bad stuff keeps happening to her.

SWEET? CARING? PIPER???  That so changed!

Oh, I love my Phoebs so much!  I so wish SHE hadn't changed!

Andy and Prue are making me VERY uncomfortable and self-conscious.

Hehehehe, Piper and the church again...  It's absolutely my favorite part of this episode!  Her "I'm GOOD!" (I know it's coming) is one of my favorite moments.

AND THERE IT IS!!!  YES!!  LOVE IT!!!

And that's when she meets Britney...

*sigh*And now we meet Hannah.  Figures that Kern brings her in...

Man, I hate her!

Thank God for her premonition - maybe not!

God, this scares the crap out of me!!

Of course Prue's the one with the hand...

Icky, icky, icky!

YUCK!

So glad Britney becomes young again. And glad Paul Ruditis remembers her!

And the three different reactions...too cool.

SOOO wish they would'e let Andy find out sooner so they would've had a better relationship for the short time he was around.

Does anyone else wish that what happened to Phoebe's lottery ticket would happen each time they used their powers for personal gain - LIKE MURDERING SOMEONE OR SETTING THEM UP TO BE MURDERED?

Sorry, I give that one a C. Only reason not a D is "I'M GOOD!"

And now time for Es to watch something UNCharmed!  I hope some of you *do* decide to watch.  I want to hear ALL about it!

 

That's what I wrote last night and some of the members *did* watch the reboot and did post their comments.  Most agree that if it wasn't called Charmed, they woudn't have watched it, so I'm very glad I didn't.  Here's a couple of the reviews, one the most positive on the site and one the most negative

Quote

THE MOST POSITIVE REVIEW SO FAR from a Charmed fan who liked it:

So I didn't think I'd watch this but ended up anyway since I wasn't doing anything. At the attempt of doing an unbiased review here goes nothing: 

Positive: 
The middle sister's freezing power. I don't like how she's channeling it with her mind, but I do like what makes it work. Piper's worked when she was anxious/scared. This sister's works when she's happy and positive. In the episode and before she's rather grumpy, so her powers will actually lead to some character growth if she wants to use her freezing power. 

I like that the middle sister was gay, their relationship seemed very realistic with the break up. 

The mother character seemed very nice, I wish we saw more of her before she died. Her magic seemed pretty strong in this first episode. Hopefully they bring her back like they did Penny and everything. 

The relationship between the two younger sisters. They feel like they're sisters and play off of each other well, with time I'd imagine that this would be even more convincing. It helps that they look a little alike. 

The youngest is actually playing her age rather then acting older then she is or unnecessarily bratty. She's a freshman that wants people to like her, I get it. 

The visual effects weren't too bad. 

Negatives: 

Really don't like how the two sisters are automatically accepting of the new oldest sister. It took Piper what, months?, to accept Paige and these two accept her in 24 hours or less. 

The political statements? Please please let this be it. The youngest sister was fighting a demon and she's saying things like "I can always say no" yet she's about to be killed. Fight girl fight. The middle sister's protests were pretty extreme I think. 

Of course the bad guy had to be the one on trial. 

Why bring science into the show? It's magic and you don't have to explain it (they did once with Pipers powers and that was enough for me but I love fantasy) and actually do some witch craft. They defeated the possessed boy with baking soda. I like that she is smart though, I thought Prue's background fit more into the show though. 

Really don't like how they were kidnapped and be told about their powers and were witches. If they wanted to be "feminist" they'd do what the original did and learned as they went along and put things together piece by piece as they learned about magic. Not with some random person telling them and expecting to trust him. 

Harry, he gives me a vibe that reminds me of Gideon. While that's not a bad thing, you know something is up with him and we're left guessing what. Don't trust him? This doesn't seem like a good set up especially in the first episode since we just met him. 

The whole consent thing. So Harry tells them that they have an option to accept their powers or not. Then it goes back later to say if you do this thing (I forgot what it was) you have to accept the powers and can't go back. So what was consensual? The original girls didn't have a choice, they were going to get their powers eventually. 

In All:
I liked it, it'd be something that I'd write if I was doing a Charmed spin off (except the girls would be Phoebe's kids and we'd get cameo's from the original cast throughout the season). It has it's good points and it's bad. I probably won't be watching again but for what it is, its good. Teenagers are going to eat it up and fans of the original will enjoy some parts here and there.


THE MOST NEGATIVE from a Charmed fan who hated it:

 

So terrible. There wasn't even 1 second in this episode that even made me chuckle at best. I was to busy rolling my eyes at the stupidity of it all.

Gonna try to make my points without spoilers.

1. The political stuff was so much, it's like someone is hitting you with hammer on the head over and over. And from the tone of episode, I don't think they will stop it or even tone it down. I can actually see them increasing it. 

2. All characters are awful human beings. You thought Charmed season 4-8 sisters were awful? You aint seen nothing yet. 

3. It's bad teen/angst/drama etc.

4. Special effects were terrible. 

5. Music was bad.

6. Very rushed.

7. Acting was what you expect from a teen show. Not terrible. But certainly not good.

8. Sisters are incompetent. 

9. It's a magic show. No need for science.

10. It's ripping of everything they could think of. 


I know many will not share my opinion. But this are my thoughts on this episode. Personally I would not recommend this to anyone. And I have to wonder, what audience were they targeting with this? Teenagers? The original show pilot was oscar worthy compared to this. 

Remove/change the tittle of the show. And this would have been canceled after a few episodes. But seams they are riding so much on that name and the og shows fans. Tho even with all of that. I can't see this show getting second season.  

Personally I do not see my self continuing to watch this any more. Maybe maybe 1 more episode just so my thoughts can be assured 100%. 


Actually there was 1 thing that made laugh at the show. And I am not even from USA. But seriously. Trump is the first sign of the upcoming apocalypse? lmfao  Show is not subtle at all. It's hammering away! lol 
 

 

Reading this made me feel the same way as I do about most The WB shows (exceptions were 7th Heaven, Charmed and Gilmore Girls) and the reason why I have yet to watch a second of any show on The CW - too much teen angst and sex, sex, sex without any romance! I was in my 40's when Charmed debuted and in my 60's now - just not my thing.  But for those who watched and enjoyed it, I hope you keep watching and keep enjoying because I like reading about what happened, the way I like reading about what happens on Supergirl and Supernatural and PLL but never watched a single second and never had any desire to give any of them any of my time.  I have a hunch I'm going to feel the same way about this one. 

And that's just fine with me, because it means I can keep watching Charmed episodes on their 20th anniversary. 

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On 10/15/2018 at 6:13 PM, Esmeralda said:

Reading this made me feel the same way as I do about most The WB shows (exceptions were 7th Heaven, Charmed and Gilmore Girls) and the reason why I have yet to watch a second of any show on The CW - too much teen angst and sex, sex, sex without any romance! I was in my 40's when Charmed debuted and in my 60's now - just not my thing.  But for those who watched and enjoyed it, I hope you keep watching and keep enjoying because I like reading about what happened, the way I like reading about what happens on Supergirl and Supernatural and PLL but never watched a single second and never had any desire to give any of them any of my time.  I have a hunch I'm going to feel the same way about this one. 

I don't often see people listing 7th Heaven AND Charmed as shows that they are a fan of. Charmed was hilariously oversexed. While 7th Heaven wasn't oversexed, it was just about the weirdest show I've ever seen. I remember the episode when Mary wanted Matt's help practicing her first kiss. I'd rather the show be oversexed than whatever that was supposed to be. Supernatural isn't really oversexed; it's definitely overangsty. The Winchester are perpetually falling on their swords to save a family member's life.

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3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I don't often see people listing 7th Heaven AND Charmed as shows that they are a fan of. Charmed was hilariously oversexed. While 7th Heaven wasn't oversexed, it was just about the weirdest show I've ever seen. I remember the episode when Mary wanted Matt's help practicing her first kiss. I'd rather the show be oversexed than whatever that was supposed to be. Supernatural isn't really oversexed; it's definitely overangsty. The Winchester are perpetually falling on their swords to save a family member's life.

If it weren't for 7th Heaven, I never would've watched Charmed - I saw the previews on 7th Heaven (I was just in love with all the kids before they grew up...once they grew up, I didn't like the show as much - like Charmed, it's the earlier seasons that I like, besides loving the parents.  As for Charmed, sex=love was one of the things I hated most about it (I can admit it has a ton of problems,), that and the fact that death was no longer scary by the 6th season because everyone but Prue (and I knew what that was the case...) kept coming back, and, of course, the inconsistency.  But I fell in love with the sisters in S1 and even when Prue died and Piper and Phoebe changed horribly, I kept watching, hoping to see glances of the Phoebs and Piper I loved. the only time I did in S4-8 was I saw my Phoebs again in 'Show Ghouls'.  Like my signature at a different site used to say:

"THERE ARE FAR WORSE FATES THAN A TRIP THROUGH THE WALL OF DOOM
LIKE A PERSONALITY LOBOTOMY COURTESY OF BRAD KERN AND THE WB!
I miss our snarky Piper who didn't constantly feel sorry for herself and always had the perfect, sarcastic line when things were darkest!!
our smart Paige who had graduated from college and should've been a social worker not a ditzy Valley Girl whose IQ got lower as her hair got lighter
and our sweet Phoebs who loved helping innocents more than finding her baby daddy - who cared about love? She sure didn't.
Did they ever miss Prue!
Me, too!"

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I'm not sure where to put this, but this seemed like the most appropriate forum and thread. So, I've been watching a lot of original Charmed lately as I'm applying for graduate school, and for some reason, Charmed both motivates me to work and entertains me while I'm stressing out about the application process. Anyway, while watching, I was thinking about the various Charmed spinoffs and reboots that have been discussed by fans and executives. While watching, that 70's Episode from the 1st season of Charmed, I thought about how much I would have loved a Gram's centric prequel.  Hear me out:

 

1. I would have love to have seen the extent of Grams' powers. In That 70s Episode, Grams is obviously a powerful witch. She shows a level of mastery over her telekinesis that we never see Prue or Paige display. Yes, the effects are horrendous, but it's 1998. We see Grams perfectly guide the Charmed Ones out of the house, open the door and slam it shut with ease. In Sympathy for the Demon, a demon attacks Grams and Piper, and she immediately creates a spell to defeat the demon that is both lyrically pleasant "Hell spawn demon, creature of death, fire shall take your very breath," and extremely effective. She also mentions in an episode that she wrote a lot of the spells in the Book of Shadows. Grams, a lone witch, is also able to live long enough to see her daughter and her grand-daughters to adulthood and only the effects of aging is the cause of her death. A show with a great actress that explored Grams in her 20s - before she has Patty - would have been great for the mythology of Charmed and explored a character that was damaged by the tonal shift of Charmed.

 

2. Grams is a better link to the Charmed One and Wicca than Patty. Granted this is because Patty died so early in the Charmed Ones life, but Patty is never fully explored as a character. While watching some episodes I realized that Prue is the most like Grams. I think Paige even has some slight similarities to Grams. Piper is obviously the sister who was the closest to Grams before her death. I thought about what sister was most like Patty. My natural inclination was Piper, but then I realized I don't actually know very much about Patty. She was the Charmed Ones mom, loved her Whitelighter and died young. Besides from that she seems nice and lovely but empty. This hit me hardest when rewatching A Witche's Tail. Leo tells Piper that Patty thought she was invincible and that's why Patty died so young, but this actually go against everything we've seen of Patty, thus far.  However, I also have a hard time saying Leo is wrong because a lot of Patty's appearances to this point (all of her appearances to this point?) have been defined by how she missed out on her daughter's lives because she died young and not necessarily who she is as a person. We also don't know much about what type of witch she was. She has the power to freeze but beyond that, was she considered powerful, did she have a great mastery over her abilities, did she ever add to the book, was she apart of a coven? I can answer all of these questions with Grams, but Patty is a complete blank. Hell, it was Grams and not Patty who often helped the sisters with demons, warlocks and various supernatural disasters, and she - not Patty - was the sisters go to for supernatural and natural emergencies. I would love a series that explored Grams in her young witch days before Grams and even included her mom - Piper's past life - and her cousin - Prue's old life - magical child. It would also be interesting see how she incorporated potions, spells and other Wicca practices into her demon fighting to supplement her lack of Charmed abilities.

 

3. Grams great love. We know that the girls' grandfather - whose name I can't remember and a quick Wiki search brought nothing up - is the love of Gram's life. Since this would most likely be a CW show, a show that shows them first meeting and falling in love would hit the CW's core demographic. It would also be a love Charmed fans could immediately get behind and knowing the grandfather will tragically die could make it more impactful for Charmed fans and give the show something to work toward for its series finale. A characteristic of Grams became her many marriages and dislike of men. However, seeing her young, falling in love with the grandfather of the Charmed Ones and ultimately losing him could be compelling television. Hell, what if one of Grams' Warren cousins has the gift of premonition and foresees the husband's death. We could have a Xena like finale where Grams and the husband knows his death is imminent and do all within their power to stop it only to fail at the end because destiny must play out. I know we saw his death in original Charmed, but since Witchstock isn't a highly loved or regarded episode, I think it would be okay for the show to retcon his death into something more appropriate for the new show.

 

4. Grams is a character that was damaged by the tonal shift of seasons 1-4, 5, and 6-8. (I think season 5 has a tone completely isolated to that one season). Grams is more serious, level-headed, competent and has a level of gravitas to her in her first appearances seasons 1-3. Starting with season 5, the show takes a more comical approach to Grams giving her constant one liners and make her pretty ineffective as a witch. The show also unfairly - in my humble opinion - makes Victor's disappearance from the Charmed Ones lives Grams' fault instead of Victor. Again, in season 1 when Victor blames Grams for his abandonment of the girls, Piper furiously retorts with "how dare you? Grams loved us. She RAISED us!" Not an exact quote. Then in later seasons like the aforementioned Sympathy for the Demon, after the demon attacks, Victor furiously leaves the house because he can't protect his daughters. However, that is VICTOR'S decision, and we don't see Gram banish Victor from their lives. He chooses to leave. Also, judging by Piper's age, this is after Patty's died and Grams bound her powers. The demon easily could have been after Grams, who is a powerful witch in her own right. Victor can't dictate whether Grams - a grown and capable woman - can decided to leave wicca or not. Then in Cheaper by the Coven, again Grams is shown as wrong in her parenting style of the girls and how to best handle the situation and Patty and Victor who shown as correct. However, again, Grams and not Patty or Victor would be the one to know the girls - at least Piper and Phoebe - the best. The later seasons seem to want to focus on Grams the comic relief and Victor the loving, adoring father, that they retroactively hurt Grams as a character. I would love to see a young Grams in the tone of seasons 1-4 in the Charmed universe. I would love to go on the journey on how she herself went from a young inexperienced witch to the badass we met in season 1.

 

While I am trying to like the Charmed reboot and wish it success, I hope that Netflix, CBS All Access, or some other streaming service could give Grams a show to explore her witchcraft.

 

Also, I was also thinking it would be wonderful if Netflix, CBS AA or CWSeed could bring a Charmed animated series with the original sisters. (Prue, Piper, Phoebe or Piper, Phoebe, Paige). Even with how much effects have improved since original Charmed, it's obvious budget still holds the new Charmed back from being a visual and magical spectacle. While Charmed is doing well by CW standards, I hope it gains a Riverdale like popularity once it goes to Netflix because that will encourage the show to delve into the Charmed verse more, i.e. Sabrina, and encourage some Charmed spinoffs. An animated series also means that the actresses would only have to do voice work and not have to actually interact. This means would could get crazy displays of powers, cool looking demons, and the original cast. If you add WB Animation and Constance Burge then we could have a truly great limited series of say 12 half hour episodes.

Edited by 4evaQuez
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LOL, the reason why you're having problems remembering the name of Grams' great love is that the show called him by two different names, similar to them calling Patty's husband both Victor Halliwell and Victor Bennett.  Usually most fans use Allen Halliwell, who was her husband in 'Witchstock' but I know at one point, he was also called Jack Halliwell.  In both cases, unlike what Penny told Piper, she herself did not keep her maiden name - according to the family tree used in 'Pardon My Past' her parents were P.  Baxter and Gordon Johnson, the reason most fans think that P. Baxter is Past Piper (although this is never verified, so saying it could've been Past Prue is just as accurate), since Dan was her husband and his last name is Gordon.

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FAVORITE:  Morality Bites Opening - I love that it shows the sisters' powers and ONLY shows the sisters, the only opening where that is true.

LEAST FAVORITE:  Season Six Opening - The girls look so pretty, but seeing them look like that reminds me that this is when they're PhoeME, Ditzy Valley Girl and Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper. I hate Chris, so i hate seeing him.  I especially hate what they do to Darryl in this season so I hate seeing him look like this.

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Have a bit of a cold, so went to the couch with a cup of tea, turned on the tv and thought I was watching Major Crimes for a moment. Then realized it was Tony Denison as Victor #1. I know it's shallow of me but he's cuter than Victor #2.

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10 hours ago, mammaM said:

Have a bit of a cold, so went to the couch with a cup of tea, turned on the tv and thought I was watching Major Crimes for a moment. Then realized it was Tony Denison as Victor #1. I know it's shallow of me but he's cuter than Victor #2.

It might be shallow, but I think the same thing, the same way I think Andy in the Unaired Pilot is cuter than Ted King. I also like that Victor #1 gets SCREEN CREDIT  as Victor HALLIWELL, so Penny never should've been one and Patty shouldn't have become one until she got married.    I can also see that Victor staying away from his girls, something I just can't see Victor #2 doing, so Prue hating Victor #2 never makes a lot of sense the way it does regarding Victor #1.  

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1 hour ago, Esmeralda said:

It might be shallow, but I think the same thing, the same way I think Andy in the Unaired Pilot is cuter than Ted King. I also like that Victor #1 gets SCREEN CREDIT  as Victor HALLIWELL, so Penny never should've been one and Patty shouldn't have become one until she got married.    I can also see that Victor staying away from his girls, something I just can't see Victor #2 doing, so Prue hating Victor #2 never makes a lot of sense the way it does regarding Victor #1.  

Smarmy. 😂😂 Victor #1 was smarmy.  By the time Victor#2 came calling, the show started making his character nicer, and nicer, and nicer, by the end of the show he was practically a saint

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Hey, by that point, any male had to be a saint - that's what happened to this so-called "female-centric" show that truly was that way when it got started. It's why I wish it had ended with the explosion in "Something Wicca This Way Goes' with the Charmed Ones dying so the boys could be raised by Leo and Victor, who by that point were such better characters than the Charmed Ones.  Wyatt had a better chance of not turning evil if he was raised by Leo and Victor, not by Piper.

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Spoiler

We've been discussing this at a different site and came up with some interesting comments.  Curious to see what you guys think.

Quote

Phoebe would have been a fantastic mother and been totally obsessed with trying to be a new age book Mom who taught her kids her own streetsmarts!

 

Quote

The street smarts thing is why somebody like Phoebe strikes me as being more of a cool aunt than somebody's mother. Imagine if she had kept some of those season 1 characteristics throughout the show and taught her nieces and nephews all sorts of fun things behind their moms' backs. 

 

Mine:

Quote

You're right. But then I see all four Charmed Ones as better aunt-material than mother-material. Prue's the one I see as the best mother, but as has been pointed out, she'd be the one who would probably least want to be a mom after having helped raised Piper and Phoebe. In the same way, I see all three of the original Charmed Ones happiest unmarried. They were all at their best when they didn't have a significant other.

Paige is an exception and I can see her and Henry fostering non-magical teenagers, since both were adopted, but still keeping enough independence so she wasn't totally tied down. They'd be the only ones I'd want to see married. But then she wasn't raised by Penny Halliwell...lucky her!

It's why I like the idea of Andy surviving and him and Prue being the ones who have the daughter in the 'Morality Bites' future while Piper is blonde with a ton of P3s all over the world and a sexy driver. Unlike what happened with Piper, I think 'Morality Bites' would've shown Prue that with their jobs, her and Andy getting married is not a good idea, while still remaining friends and allies is. I'd like to have seen Andy marrying someone non-magical and later having a child with her - Prue's godchild - as part of the last episode of the series.

 

What do you guys think of that?

Not sure why it decided to make the first part of this a spoiler. It truly isn't.

Edited by Esmeralda · Reason: Due to it merging.
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Love these, and love seeing the original set being so friendly with each other. 

I so want dailies from S1 the most, especially the pilot. 

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On 4/25/2018 at 11:31 AM, Eva Marie said:

Well. I've slogged through S8 (almost choked on the overdose of heteronormativity in the finale). 3 kids each? Really!? Not buying that for anyone but Piper. I would've seen Phoebe having just the 1 daughter she was so mad about, and Paige having none (maybe fostering kids Henry finds in desperate need).

I agree about them not really needing them all to have the same amount of kids, but heteronormative? None of the sisters were ever gay so did you want a finale storyline involving one of them coming out as gay or something? Saying the show was heteronormative would be kind of valid, I think we had one reference to a lesbian couple in the whole show but the finale itself, meh. 

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