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S41.E04: They Hate Me 'Cause They Ain't Me

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On 10/13/2021 at 11:24 PM, Melina22 said:

I definitely saw one this week. A very short puzzle. One of these episodes I'll pause the show and take a stab at it, but I haven't so far. 

You don't even need to do that.  Nor do you need to go back and watch the previous episodes.  All the puzzles appear on the website.

15 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm confused, does Shan get to keep JD's extra vote advantage? And use it herself? Or is it simply out of play? Technically he only agreed to let her hold it so I don't think that's the same as giving it to her. 

All the note says is that "You have an Extra Vote (good through F6)."  There's no indication of non-transferability.  Shan could have used it tonight, or last time, had she wanted to.

 

7 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Considering that blue keeps winning and I didn't even know there WAS a Heather, it doesn't seem like she's slowed her team down too badly in the other challenges.

That was the first challenge she was actually a part of since the first episode.  She'd been a permanent fixture on the Blue sit-out bench since then.

5 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Challenge Throwers need to be EJECTED from the game because it violates the SPIRIT of the game.

I disagree.  There are valid reasons to throw a challenge and go to TC.   I do agree that the reasons in this episode weren't it though.

The main reason to throw a challenge is:

  • You've gone through a tribal swap.
  • You have the majority on your new tribe.
  • Either or both of:
    • The biggest physical threat from the other original tribe is now on your side.
    • You have trusted allies in the minority (and thus in likely danger) on the other tribe.

Then you can throw a challenge to protect your ally and/or eliminate a major challenge threat.   But those are smart, strategic reasons to throw a challenge.  Deshaun seemed to want to throw a challenge because he got BMF from seeing Erika seemingly have BMF.  And BMF is no reason to throw a challenge.

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3 hours ago, Nashville said:

Shan’s little “evil song” was cute - the first time; the next half-dozen times, not so much.  Drop it, please.

She clearly thinks it’s charming. I think it makes her look like an imbecile.

8 hours ago, Matty said:

Thank you, Naseer, for foiling the stupid plan to throw the challenge. He went all out in the challenge while the two  architects of the dumb plan stood back and stared in wonder as they won anyway. Loved that.

Naseer only jumped in because one of the “throwers” was missing too many shots. So my question is, when Naseer also missed several shots in a row, why didn’t one of them take back control? They could have taken at least a few more bad shots without arousing suspicion. Instead, they just stood there and watched while he decided their fates.

If you’re going to throw, COMMIT. 

7 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

Oh, and all of this "I want to play the game so let's throw the challenge" is nothing but arrogant.  Don't worry-you'll lose at one point and if not, YOU may be one of the first to go after the merge so you will get your chance to "play." 

Yes. As others have pointed out, there is occasionally a valid strategic reason to throw a challenge, and occasionally it works. But almost always, the reason for throwing is reactive and emotional, and it almost never works.

Either way, I agree that it’s extremely arrogant to assume you have to throw a challenge in order to get to tribal council. Just wait, keep others focused on that target, and you’ll get your chance. You’ll also keep the target off yourself that much longer.

On 10/13/2021 at 10:29 PM, Maya said:

Was anyone else terrified at first that the tribe was going to eat the baby turtles? Lol

I don’t know what this says about me, but when I saw the turtles, my first thought was “Food!” (Don’t hate me. I’m not really evil. I don’t even have a signature tune.)

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On 10/13/2021 at 11:29 PM, Maya said:

Was anyone else terrified at first that the tribe was going to eat the baby turtles? Lol

Yes! I thought for sure they would. Whew, I was so happy they just watched and admired the little turtles.

JD omg! No words. I can't stand Shan. She was unnecessarily mean girl to Genie. Play the game be sneaky and do your weird humming (wtf?) But no need to be mean to someone who was rightly upset. 

I felt for Heather , I teared up. I found it odd because I never felt bad for Tiffany, when she was sucking in a challenge lol.

 

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5 hours ago, Nashville said:

When Shan went off on Genie with her gawdawful condescending “I’m gonna squash this” rant - was anybody else besides me hoping and praying Genie would go right back at Shan with “Hey boo, why the fuck should I believe a damn thing coming out of your mouth NOW?”

I forgot she started with, "I'm gonna squash this!"  How dare Genie have a moment of anger  without Shan's permission?  Then ending with the patronizing "boo." 

Shan has a physical brightness to her that I find very attractive, so I have to keep reminding myself that, big brown eyes or not, she sucks! 

I've noticed her bio doesn't say what church she's affiliated with so I wonder if she even has one. If she does, I want to hear from members of her congregation.  Are they allowed to disagree with her?  I once had a pastor turn on me in front of a large group saying I was the most argumentative person she had ever met.  Now, that was probably true, but she lashed it out like Shan did the squash statement and we were all sort of shocked.  Maybe it's the new seminary  version of leaning in.

 

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4 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

I don’t know what this says about me, but when I saw the turtles, my first thought was “Food!”

I thought the same thing, but quickly realized they are most likely protected.

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https://ew.com/tv/survivor-41-jd-robinson-jairus-interview/

Interview with JD.  So he says that he did approach Genie and say that they should vote out Ricard.  Not sure why he didn't push this more.  He says Genie having any of it.  Seems like he should have tried harder to convince her that she needed to vote with him to get rid of Ricard otherwise the next week, Shan and Ricard would just pick off whoever was left.

He still comes across as an idiot to me.  The "advantage in his pants" being displayed wasn't on purpose... he really was just dumb.  Why not shove it all the way into his underwear, like others (I think maybe Dan Rengering and Adam Klein?) have done before.

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I finally watched last night, my son has decided he wants to watch and it finishes after his bed time so delayed watching this season.

Shan is playing hard and I have no problem with that. JD rightly called her out for her hypocrisy but it bit him in the ass.  He would have been better off quietly seething and reading the situation for what it was. Shan was telling multiple people different things and cannot be trusted. She was willing to stab Brad in the back and not tell Genie, why wouldn't se be willing to do the same thing to JD? Except JD is a young man over confident in his abilities, both socially and athletically, and thought that he was on Shan's good side. Opps

I have no problem with Shan saying one thing and doing another. This is Survivor. She is trying to win a million dollars. It is ok to play the leader you have to respect and do as told to JD,  who 100% fell in line when told to fall in line, and play the good friend/confident role with Brad. That tells me that Shan has a good read on the people in her tribe and that she knows how to approach them in an effective manner.

Brad told Shan about both his potential advantages, something he didn't tell Genie. JD gave Shan his advantage, twice. Both Brad and JD thought that Shan was their number one. Both are gone.

Shan sees Ricard as a more trust worthy partner who is plotting with her. She saw JD and Brad as people very interested in PLAYING SURVIVOR and MAKING BIG MOVES which made them both more dangerous because of erratic game play. She got rid of them and keeps plotting with Ricard. I am fine with that. I think she has a good read on her tribe, its personalities, and how to work in that group.

I think Shan handled Genie badly. Her comment about Brad not being Genie's number one was hurtful and unnecessary. Genie was upset about being blindsides and Shan just rubbed salt in the wound. At the same time, Shan revealed her game play to JD. She is lucky that JD was an awful player. JD should have pretended to play along and worked with Genie to vote out Shan or Ricard. They had the votes if JD played his advantage. But JD is a bad player and Genie was playing from the bottom and desperate and didn't see the opening.

I would think that Shan is in more danger of being voted out and stabbed in the back by Ricard right now. Ricard seems to be the silent partner in their duo. Shan is getting the over the top villain edit which makes me think that Ricard will go farther then Shan.

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19 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

She saw JD and Brad as people very interested in PLAYING SURVIVOR and MAKING BIG MOVES

I have never understood why players feel the need to do this before the merge.  Nobody is really going to remember the "Big Move" made on Day 4.  And worse, they broadcast it to the rest of the tribe.  Dumb, dumb, dumb.  Fly under the radar with the Sandra "anybody but me" strategy, then after the merge, be observant, see how things shake out, then make a move of some sort.

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Oh, JD...I loved your enthusiasm and your naivete. I hoped it would last a little longer, but I think we all knew his days were numbered. 

I'm glad blue failed to throw the challenge, because I want to see more of them and going to tribal intentionally is usually a bad idea. You'll get there soon enough, through a Peachy twist or an eventual loss, so don't rush it. 

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23 hours ago, fishcakes said:
On 10/14/2021 at 9:31 AM, peachmangosteen said:

Fucking hell, Danny is SO hot.

This really can't be emphasized enough.

Preach.  Not just smokin' hot, but a real team player.  I'm not convinced he participated in actively throwing the challenge, even if he didn't go into beast mode to try to win.  Also, he was incredibly supportive of Heather after her terrible performance.  Given that I would probably do as well as Heather, I am now trying to figure out a way that I can fail in front of Danny to get some of that.

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15 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Re: Shan's humming, is that the Wizard of Oz theme or just a tuneless hum she made up? 

Considering that blue keeps winning and I didn't even know there WAS a Heather, it doesn't seem like she's slowed her team down too badly in the other challenges. It looked to me like there was a specific concern for her with this one, namely a knee injury. Running through sand with those ropes, it looked like a prime place to tear your ACL if you did it wrong.

In the thread on episode 1, I said it sounded like the first 6 notes of the cat's theme from Peter and the Wolf (in which the cat is a villain and the duck a patsy, and as those were my favorite animals plus I was already a budding feminist from birth and wasn't too fond of boy-hero-can-do-no-wrong tales, I wasn't too fond of it, so I don't appreciate Shan sticking it in my head every week).    

I did like Shan until this ep--I don't mind ruthless, but I thought she was unnecessarily mean and un-pastor-like.  I did like JD, because having a young adult son who's had his doofy moments, I have a soft spot for that type.  Won't miss his long dangling ear chains, not because I found them unattractive, but I imagined them getting caught in a challenge and ouch!

Strangely, I don't mind Ricard. 

Also, if you don't like how JD is throwing and missing, tap in!  Naseer knew how to do it! (Go Naseer!)

Even though it was 4th-wall-breaking self-referential, I did enjoy yellow tribe's "previously on Survivor" recap, mainly because they were having such fun with it and each other and the editors did a great job finding appropriate footage--but it sort of fizzled out when Tiffany said something I didn't understand.  I was glad, though, that a smaller tribe got that fish, because it gave them bigger shares that way!

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16 minutes ago, Jobiska said:

In the thread on episode 1, I said it sounded like the first 6 notes of the cat's theme from Peter and the Wolf (in which the cat is a villain and the duck a patsy, and as those were my favorite animals plus I was already a budding feminist from birth and wasn't too fond of boy-hero-can-do-no-wrong tales, I wasn't too fond of it, so I don't appreciate Shan sticking it in my head every week).    

Even though it was 4th-wall-breaking self-referential, I did enjoy yellow tribe's "previously on Survivor" recap, mainly because they were having such fun with it and each other and the editors did a great job finding appropriate footage--but it sort of fizzled out when Tiffany said something I didn't understand.  I was glad, though, that a smaller tribe got that fish, because it gave them bigger shares that way!

Yes, Peter and the Wolf!

I think Tiffany said something about how she is a challenge monster and totally carried the team.  Then she said she was joking, they ALL contributed.  Or something like that.

That bluish-green fish was beautiful.  Was that some kind of parrotfish?  How did they cook it?  It looked like they just boiled it?  Doesn't seem like a good way to cook fish.  I guess they don't have a fry pan?  Meanwhile, Green tribe is getting grilled fish from the stripper Cirque du Soleil worker.

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1 hour ago, Jobiska said:

Even though it was 4th-wall-breaking self-referential, I did enjoy yellow tribe's "previously on Survivor" recap, mainly because they were having such fun with it and each other and the editors did a great job finding appropriate footage--but it sort of fizzled out when Tiffany said something I didn't understand.  I was glad, though, that a smaller tribe got that fish, because it gave them bigger shares that way!

 

49 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I think Tiffany said something about how she is a challenge monster and totally carried the team.  Then she said she was joking, they ALL contributed.  Or something like that.

Tiffany did say the joking bit about carrying the team, but that was in a confessional. I think Jobiska is referring to something she said with the tribe during their faux recap, which was something like “and since Tiffany’s main motivator is food…”, i.e. that’s why she did so well in the reward challenge.

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3 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I have no problem with Shan saying one thing and doing another. This is Survivor. She is trying to win a million dollars. It is ok to play the leader you have to respect and do as told to JD,  who 100% fell in line when told to fall in line, and play the good friend/confident role with Brad. That tells me that Shan has a good read on the people in her tribe and that she knows how to approach them in an effective manner.

I have zero problems with Shan’s strategic gameplay; it’s her constant “Look at me, aren’t I so cute and evil?  Tee hee!” refrain that makes me want to drive a stake through her heart.

 

1 hour ago, Jobiska said:

In the thread on episode 1, I said it sounded like the first 6 notes of the cat's theme from Peter and the Wolf (in which the cat is a villain and the duck a patsy, and as those were my favorite animals plus I was already a budding feminist from birth and wasn't too fond of boy-hero-can-do-no-wrong tales, I wasn't too fond of it, so I don't appreciate Shan sticking it in my head every week).    

To me it sounds like the first 6 notes of the standard “Gilligan’s Island” episode background music, so I fucking despise it AND Shan.

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1 minute ago, Nashville said:

I have zero problems with Shan’s strategic gameplay; it’s her constant “Look at me, aren’t I so cute and evil?  Tee hee!” refrain that makes me want to drive a stake through her heart.

Oh, I agree. It is more annoying that the she is almost trying to down play her strategy so she looks less like a villain to her Parishioners. Whatever she is trying to do, it is annoying. And it isn't cute. And her lashing out at Genie was not cute or a part of her strategy. It was like she had to let Genie know that Shan was the one playing a great game and had conned people into trusting her. Genie wasn't Brad's number one, Shan was because Shan is so good at the game.

It was an ugly moment and I suspect closer to the real Shan then the giggling I am being so evil on purpose aren't I smart and cute look.

I am not going to be surprised when Shan is voted out and Ricard is revealed as the real mastermind in their two some. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Shan ends up at the final tribal because her game play has left more then enough bruised feelings and she ends up with no votes. Ricard could very well see this and be using Shan as a shield.

It is less what Shan is doing and more how she is doing it. JD had his Survivor check list (make fire, be a challenge star, find an idol) that was dorky but kind of understandable. Shan's Survivor check list is more brutal and it really doesn't seem like she wants to hide it, even though she is saying she does.

 

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8 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Oh, I agree. It is more annoying that the she is almost trying to down play her strategy so she looks less like a villain to her Parishioners. Whatever she is trying to do, it is annoying. And it isn't cute. And her lashing out at Genie was not cute or a part of her strategy. It was like she had to let Genie know that Shan was the one playing a great game and had conned people into trusting her. Genie wasn't Brad's number one, Shan was because Shan is so good at the game.

It was an ugly moment and I suspect closer to the real Shan then the giggling I am being so evil on purpose aren't I smart and cute look.

I am not going to be surprised when Shan is voted out and Ricard is revealed as the real mastermind in their two some. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Shan ends up at the final tribal because her game play has left more then enough bruised feelings and she ends up with no votes. Ricard could very well see this and be using Shan as a shield.

It is less what Shan is doing and more how she is doing it. JD had his Survivor check list (make fire, be a challenge star, find an idol) that was dorky but kind of understandable. Shan's Survivor check list is more brutal and it really doesn't seem like she wants to hide it, even though she is saying she does.

 

All this x1000.  
Shan doing whatever is required - no matter how ruthless - to achieve her goal of winning the prize?  No problem.

Shan going out of her way to be nasty to other people in the process, though - even when it is unnecessary, and especially when it is directed at people who pose no strategic threat to her?  Fuck her.

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3 hours ago, Jobiska said:

In the thread on episode 1, I said it sounded like the first 6 notes of the cat's theme from Peter and the Wolf

Thank you! This is exactly what I thought but hesitated to post it because I wasn't sure how well known it is. Too bad I didn't see your first post. I feel validated in my opinion. 😁😁 

Edited by Melina22
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When they show Shan’s “Pastor” ID onscreen it always makes me think that is not the kind of pastor I want. It’s Survivor and it’s a game like poker where you can bluff without being a bad person, but she takes advantage and manipulates the young, naïve guy, then gloats about it and revels in having her own “I’m doing evil” song. Seems a bit beyond just innocent game play. 

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50 minutes ago, Tango64 said:

When they show Shan’s “Pastor” ID onscreen it always makes me think that is not the kind of pastor I want. It’s Survivor and it’s a game like poker where you can bluff without being a bad person, but she takes advantage and manipulates the young, naïve guy, then gloats about it and revels in having her own “I’m doing evil” song. Seems a bit beyond just innocent game play. 

Yep.  In the first episode, I liked her because of her attitude that "just because I'm a pastor doesn't mean I am not going to lie to get ahead.  I'm here to win".  But now, it has gone way beyond that.  She is a mean and manipulative bully.  She thinks her way is the only way and she yells and screams and talks louder than others to get them to shut up so she can tell her how it is going to be.  She is a nasty person.

She seems a bit young to be a Pastor, no?  I wonder if she means pastor as in she is the leader of her church, which is what I think of when I hear the term "pastor".  Or if she is a Youth Pastor, meaning she is in charge of the children's programming at a church.

Either way, the nastiness and the "shutting this down" persona seems a bit much for someone who is supposedly a pastor.  Pastors are supposed to be empathetic people who are willing to listen to their parishioners and be a source of comfort and peace.  She is anything but that.  If she's that easily riled up and quick to chew people's heads off, how on earth can she be any good at her job?

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In defense of the idea to throw the challenge (and throwing a challenge should not be grounds for ejection at all) there was some logic to DeShawn's reasoning.  If they go to a merge next week with 6 people and the other two tribes have 7 combined they will team up and start voting out Blue. And the first two people they will go for are the physical threats the two biggest being Danny and DeShawn. Though there is a possibility they would go after Sydney too since she let us know she is a huge physical threat as well.

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This shorter version that forces people to play hard seems even more flawed now that having an advantage or playing a strategy gets you voted out (or plan A if you go to tribal).   Rather than the usual medium-rises-to-the -middle winner, I suspect it will be weakest to the top, as they vote out the hard players first, then the strong players after the merge, leaving the hangers-on in the final.

However, so much a for the idea that Yasa was doomed and could never win after voting out their two strong men.  Maybe this is the year that turns traditional strategy in its head.

Nathan seemed cool, but how did he help?  He climbed a tree but didn't teach them how to.  He cooked a fish (in a coconut?) but when they asked how to actually catch one, he told them try at low tide instead of instructing them on the spear.  As rewards go,  this was pretty lame.

I fall a bit more for Danny every week.  As much as I think is time for a woman to win again, I'd be fine with Danny.  DeShawn seems to be having a great experience.  Win or lose, I have a feeling he's going to be  a multiple-time player.

Sydney is not as attractive as she thinks she is.  I'm not sure she's even in the top three this season (but I'm a middle-aged woman, so clearly not the demographic she was cast for)

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5 hours ago, blackwing said:

She seems a bit young to be a Pastor, no?  I wonder if she means pastor as in she is the leader of her church, which is what I think of when I hear the term "pastor".  Or if she is a Youth Pastor, meaning she is in charge of the children's programming at a church.

A little Internet sleuthing tells me that, until recently, Shan worked as Associate Pastor at Emmanuel-Brinklow Seventh Day Adventist Church in Maryland. Her programs seemed to be targeted mainly at young adults, so Youth Pastor sounds right. Before that, she was Pastor-Chaplain at Pacific Union College. 

I also learned that she grew up in the foster care system, and has MS, which she decided not to disclose to her fellow castaways. Her musical composing skills are apparently self-taught.

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17 hours ago, LanceM said:

In defense of the idea to throw the challenge (and throwing a challenge should not be grounds for ejection at all) there was some logic to DeShawn's reasoning.  If they go to a merge next week with 6 people and the other two tribes have 7 combined they will team up and start voting out Blue. And the first two people they will go for are the physical threats the two biggest being Danny and DeShawn. Though there is a possibility they would go after Sydney too since she let us know she is a huge physical threat as well.

This is actually why I wouldn't want to throw an immunity challenge.  Get the other tribes to decimate their numbers while keeping one own's tribe as intact as possible.  If the other tribes are 3/3, then with blue's 6 there could possibly be a tie or they could even lure someone over to their side.  Even better if the other tribes have fewer numbers.  Convince Erika that you are with her and she won't switch sides.  Heather is probably totally with blue because they were so supportive after she lost the reward challenge for them.  Keep the members as tight as possible.  Throwing a challenge and potentially going into the merge with fewer than the combined totals of the other two tribes could see blue pagoned away.

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from Parade article about Shan that explains a lot: "There was a time in my life where I was affiliated with a gang. I was homeless; I was living on the streets. When you’re in that environment, you encounter a ton of different people. You face a number of circumstances that most people just probably don’t face in their life. And you really learn how to read people, both cops and people that live on the streets who say that you’re friends. While I am a pastor and have deep empathy and a real compassion gift, I’m also a hustler at my core"

Explains a lot....and remember there's a lot of pastors out there making a ton of money off their congregations....i.e. Joel Osteen types who are also hustlers at their core

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It's weird that people are not that excited about this Survivor season even though we had to wait for 1,5 hard years for it. Obviously something is going wrong and I'm wondering what it is. Is it the cast? The advantages? The 3 tribes of 6 people? In my opinion it's the tribes. I think that having six people makes it obvious which 2 people are in the outs so it makes it more predictable that these two people will be voted out when this tribe loses. I guess it will become more interesting after the merge where there will be groups of 2-3-4-5 people. But even then it seems that it will be kind of predictable. We have already seen that Evie has approached Deshawn so that means that these two tribes will get together in order to eliminate the third. Everything that is shown on Survivor has a reason.

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It's the advantages. There is too much time spent on the advantages which are far too abundant and confusing. And they have not even turned into anything useful for the people finding them because of the complexity that comes with using them. So a ton of time is spent on these advantages and I am not even certain if the one that might be in play actually is. I don't know that Shan actually gets to use JD's vote.

We saw nothing about how the Tribes built their shelters. We don't really see them scavenging for food or fishing. We have seen people burned by the advantages and too much sharing but that is it.

It sucks.

Hid the immunity idol and be done with it. Or make the immunity idol more interesting by making people work for it like they did in the past, with a treasure hunt. But the current system sucks and there are too many potential idols in play.

It is boring and it is getting in the way of knowing the players and seeing what is happening in camp.

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1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

It's the advantages. There is too much time spent on the advantages which are far too abundant and confusing. And they have not even turned into anything useful for the people finding them because of the complexity that comes with using them. So a ton of time is spent on these advantages and I am not even certain if the one that might be in play actually is. I don't know that Shan actually gets to use JD's vote.

We saw nothing about how the Tribes built their shelters. We don't really see them scavenging for food or fishing. We have seen people burned by the advantages and too much sharing but that is it.

It sucks.

Hid the immunity idol and be done with it. Or make the immunity idol more interesting by making people work for it like they did in the past, with a treasure hunt. But the current system sucks and there are too many potential idols in play.

It is boring and it is getting in the way of knowing the players and seeing what is happening in camp.

Agree. And I’ll add that some advantages negate others…eg you have an extra vote, but you can’t vote at all.  Too confusing.  

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2 hours ago, himela said:

It's weird that people are not that excited about this Survivor season even though we had to wait for 1,5 hard years for it. Obviously something is going wrong and I'm wondering what it is. Is it the cast? The advantages? The 3 tribes of 6 people? In my opinion it's the tribes. I think that having six people makes it obvious which 2 people are in the outs so it makes it more predictable that these two people will be voted out when this tribe loses. I guess it will become more interesting after the merge where there will be groups of 2-3-4-5 people. But even then it seems that it will be kind of predictable. We have already seen that Evie has approached Deshawn so that means that these two tribes will get together in order to eliminate the third. Everything that is shown on Survivor has a reason.

It's the fact that there are these new advantages that are confusing and difficult to understand.  It's the fact that these advantages depend on secrecy but the idiot characters on this show immediately and naively blab about them to someone they thought they trusted but then invariably turns around and stabs them in the back and tells others.  So seemingly half the contestants now are aware of exactly what this secret phrase immunity idol is.  And as soon as the magic powers get activated, will target that individual, forcing them to immediately burn the idol that they waited so long to activate.

I also agree that the tribes are too small and in a season that introduced these convoluted secret advantages, there is no hope of keeping things secret when tribes are this small.  JD kept his steal a vote a secret until Shan bullied him into exposing it in front of everyone.

Jeffy clearly took pen to paper during the year long hiatus and wanted NEW TWISTS for the sake of having them be new, but didn't seem to think things out far enough in advance to envision how they would play out.

This Take a Chance thing... even people who thought they were in trouble, like Genie and JD this past episode, didn't even bother to use it.  Fail.  I think the odds are too small.  Only a 1 in 6 chance AND you don't even get to vote?  Not good.  I would have made it 1 in 4 and you still get to vote.  That way, the person that was on bottom can suddenly dictate the vote.

This Take a Chance thing seems to be a failure because people aren't even considering the possibility of someone using it.  If JD had known he was on the bottom, and decided to Take a Chance.  He rolls successfully and is safe but doesn't get to vote.  All three of the others vote for JD.   So now, the other three have to re-vote, and can only vote for one of the three.  Then Genie goes home.  If she had thought this through, she would have thrown a vote onto Rickard or Shan to protect herself.

The fact that she did not... either 1) she trusted that JD would not use Take a Chance, 2) since the odds are so low she figured he wouldn't be successful even if he used it, or 3) she is too stupid to think this through all the way.

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I'm confused.  Didn't Xander have to repeat his "butterflies are dead relatives" saying at EVERY immunity challenge until the other two oddball sayings were parlayed back to him?  Did he say it at this week's immunity challenge?  I realize that Brad was voted out with the "broccoli" response, but how did Xander know that the advantage wasn't rehidden for someone else on Brad's team to find?  And how did he know that the third advantage about "goats on astroturf" hadn't been found.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding about how this all works, but I was sure the clue said he had to say it at EVERY immunity challenge, not just when he thought he'd get the anticipated response.  

And, do we know if Brad's advantage IS going to be rehidden, or is the whole thing just dead in the water now?  I thought Jeff promised us insight into such things this season.  The whole thing is ridiculously convaluted!

Edited by cowgirlwen
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12 minutes ago, cowgirlwen said:

I'm confused.  Didn't Xander have to repeat his "butterflies are dead relatives" saying at EVERY immunity challenge until the other two oddball sayings were parlayed back to him?  Did he say it at this week's immunity challenge?  I realize that Brad was voted out with the "broccoli" response, but how did Xander know that the advantage wasn't rehidden for someone else on Brad's team to find?  And how did he know that the third advantage about "goats on astroturf" hadn't been found.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding about how this all works, but I was sure the clue said he had to say it at EVERY immunity challenge, not just when he thought he'd get the anticipated response.  

And, do we know if Brad's advantage IS going to be rehidden, or is the whole thing just dead in the water now?  I thought Jeff promised us insight into such things this season.  The whole thing is ridiculously convaluted!

Xander may very well have said his phrase, but they didn't show it because there was no reason to (i.e. no one else had the matching clues). They showed him saying it the first time because it WAS the first time, and they showed the second time because Brad said his phrase first. But the show probably figures there's no point in showing it if nothing new happens.

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24 minutes ago, cowgirlwen said:

I'm confused.  Didn't Xander have to repeat his "butterflies are dead relatives" saying at EVERY immunity challenge until the other two oddball sayings were parlayed back to him?  Did he say it at this week's immunity challenge?  I realize that Brad was voted out with the "broccoli" response, but how did Xander know that the advantage wasn't rehidden for someone else on Brad's team to find?  And how did he know that the third advantage about "goats on astroturf" hadn't been found.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding about how this all works, but I was sure the clue said he had to say it at EVERY immunity challenge, not just when he thought he'd get the anticipated response.  

And, do we know if Brad's advantage IS going to be rehidden, or is the whole thing just dead in the water now?  I thought Jeff promised us insight into such things this season.  The whole thing is ridiculously convaluted!

I think he was only required to say it at "the next" immunity challenge.  Not every single challenge.  He heard Brad say the magic phrase about broccoli so repeated his saying about butterflies, and then nobody from Blue chimed in.  So that's the only reason why he said it in two successive challenges, because he heard another phrase and was hoping to hear the third.  At this point, I think he can just wait until he hears the other two phrases first. 

I would imagine that Brad's advantage is re-hidden.  I think upthread someone posted that they saw on the clue that it said this advantage (and the disadvantage of not being able to vote) expires at merge.  So it would be really crappy if Brad went home with it and it doesn't get re-hidden and Xander loses his vote until merge. 

But again, this is an utter fail on Jeffy's part, there needs to be a way for viewers to understand this without having to pause and squint to read or speculate about how it works.  Since Jeffy thinks it is "new and innovative" to break the fourth wall, why can't he just take a minute to explain to viewers exactly how this works and what happens in these certain situations?

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On 10/15/2021 at 5:10 PM, blackwing said:

She seems a bit young to be a Pastor, no?  I wonder if she means pastor as in she is the leader of her church, which is what I think of when I hear the term "pastor".  Or if she is a Youth Pastor, meaning she is in charge of the children's programming at a church.

Either way, the nastiness and the "shutting this down" persona seems a bit much for someone who is supposedly a pastor.  Pastors are supposed to be empathetic people who are willing to listen to their parishioners and be a source of comfort and peace.  She is anything but that.  If she's that easily riled up and quick to chew people's heads off, how on earth can she be any good at her job?

The Internet says she is 34, which is plenty of time to have gone through some level of post-college schooling and come out on the other side as an associate/assistant pastor, or even depending on the denomination and the size of the church THE pastor. (I would assume some denominations/churches are going to have pastors that don't go beyond high school.)

The question of course is how much of her persona in the game and in the confessionals is actually her, and how much is it hamming up for the cameras? I doubt that she in her real life thinks about doing something sinful and then starts humming her "evil Shan" theme song to herself. 

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4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The Internet says she is 34, which is plenty of time to have gone through some level of post-college schooling and come out on the other side as an associate/assistant pastor, or even depending on the denomination and the size of the church THE pastor. (I would assume some denominations/churches are going to have pastors that don't go beyond high school.)

The question of course is how much of her persona in the game and in the confessionals is actually her, and how much is it hamming up for the cameras? I doubt that she in her real life thinks about doing something sinful and then starts humming her "evil Shan" theme song to herself. 

I suspect she is playing this up to get noticed on TV. So many players are invisible if they do not give interesting talking heads that they are not edited into the episode until they are voted out or really do something interesting.  This way, she gets air time for herself.

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11 hours ago, himela said:

It's weird that people are not that excited about this Survivor season even though we had to wait for 1,5 hard years for it. Obviously something is going wrong and I'm wondering what it is. Is it the cast? The advantages? The 3 tribes of 6 people? In my opinion it's the tribes. I think that having six people makes it obvious which 2 people are in the outs so it makes it more predictable that these two people will be voted out when this tribe loses. I guess it will become more interesting after the merge where there will be groups of 2-3-4-5 people. But even then it seems that it will be kind of predictable. We have already seen that Evie has approached Deshawn so that means that these two tribes will get together in order to eliminate the third. Everything that is shown on Survivor has a reason.

As other have said it is 100% the advantages. There is too many of them and they seem to very confusing as well. The episode two weeks was probably the single worst episode of Survivor in 20 years and really makes me wonder why I continue to watch this dame show. Literally the entire episode revolved around advantages and not on camp life or tribe dynamics.  It was awful. Last week was an improvement an I can only hope the rest of the season is edited like that

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I hear you all saying it's the advantages that confuse people but in this episode there was no mention of advantages, it was a traditional more or less Survivor episode and still I don't see people being that interested. From my point of view I think it's the number of people in a tribe. From episode 1 we knew who is the two bottom people in each tribe and who calls the shots so it was boring to know who would leave if they lost the challenge. Even now we know who are the next people who will leave. Erika from blue, Xander from yellow and Genie from green. It's like in BB23 where we knew the non-black people would leave first, we just didn't know in what order.

If the tribes have 9 people each there is much room to create bonds and mini alliances with multiple people and this makes things more interesting for the viewer.

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58 minutes ago, himela said:

I hear you all saying it's the advantages that confuse people but in this episode there was no mention of advantages, it was a traditional more or less Survivor episode and still I don't see people being that interested. From my point of view I think it's the number of people in a tribe. From episode 1 we knew who is the two bottom people in each tribe and who calls the shots so it was boring to know who would leave if they lost the challenge. Even now we know who are the next people who will leave. Erika from blue, Xander from yellow and Genie from green. It's like in BB23 where we knew the non-black people would leave first, we just didn't know in what order.

If the tribes have 9 people each there is much room to create bonds and mini alliances with multiple people and this makes things more interesting for the viewer.

I agree that the three tribe thing is a fail this season.  But not necessarily because there's three tribes... there have been seasons in the past with three tribes (Beauty Brains Brawn, Heroes Healers Hustlers, White Collar Blue Collar No Collar) and I don't remember being so uninterested.

I agree that the fact that the tribes are so small led immediately to this unspoken pecking order where it was obvious who was going home.  And I'm not sure why or how this didn't happen in past three tribe seasons.  Or maybe it did and I just don't remember.

I'd love to see a season start where tribes are either completely random (draw buffs once they are on the pirate ship).  It might be unfair and luck of the draw, but that's how tribe swaps always work.  Some people just get screwed if they are on a team that can't win challenges.  Or there is a schoolyard pick where captains are picked randomly and then the teams as a whole decide who to pick, based solely on appearance and demeanor.  I get that feelings might be hurt with the latter, but oh well.  This is Survivor, learn to be tough.

As it is, it's really obvious when each tribe this season has one older overweight woman, one 20 year old kid, etc.

Even though there were no advantages found in this episode, the spectre of the advantages loomed large, because the fact that JD had an advantage (and didn't immediately tell Shan about it, oh the humanity!) directly led to his ouster.

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2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Or there is a schoolyard pick where captains are picked randomly and then the teams as a whole decide who to pick, based solely on appearance and demeanor.  I get that feelings might be hurt with the latter, but oh well.  This is Survivor, learn to be tough.

They actually have done something similar to this at least a couple of times. I know Season 10 was done that way, with the last man and woman not picked (Jonathan and Wanda) being eliminated on the spot. I'd guess that hurt some feelings XD. Pretty sure Season 5, Thailand, was done this way, too, though without the immediate eliminations.

To pivot back around to this season, I'm not sure the next to go on each tribe is quite as obvious as it seems. We had a situation on Yellow where it seemed obvious that Tiffany or Xander were doomed, and Voce ended up going. Naseer looked like he was doomed on the Blue tribe, but now it's Erika - that could easily change again. Just this episode, Genie was marked, and JD went instead.

Edited by tracyscott76 · Reason: To get on topic
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8 minutes ago, tracyscott76 said:

To pivot back around to this season, I'm not sure the next to go on each tribe is quite as obvious as it seems. We had a situation on Yellow where it seemed obvious that Tiffany or Xander were doomed, and Voce ended up going. Naseer looked like he was doomed on the Blue tribe, but now it's Erika - that could easily change again. Just this episode, Genie was marked, and JD went instead.

Exactly. I don't think the boots have been obvious at all and I don't know who will go next on each tribe. I could easily see it being between 2 or 3 people on each tribe.

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I might suggest that the reason this season seems less interesting is because we have gotten to see so little of the tribe dynamics and interpersonal relationships, and of the strategies.  Less of camp life.  Less time to get to know the players, so less investment in who does what and who goes home.  And this is mainly because of all the time taken up with the advantages.

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Although this episode was sooooo much better without all of the advantages, I think it might be too little too late to generate enthusiasm.  This season could pick up again if the advantages stay in the background instead of being the focal point of the episodes.  However, without showing us the shelter building (and arguments which usually accompany that), the scrambling for food, etc., we haven't really gotten to know the survivors nor develop favorites, villains, etc.  The producers have really limited our (well, I can't speak for everyone) investment in the tribes, tribal dynamics, etc.  

I think Jeff wanted change for the sake of change rather than change that would further invest viewers and their appreciation of the game.  Years ago a superintendent held meetings at the various schools in the district and announced drastic changes for the next school year.  When I asked in front of the entire staff of the high school if these changes were for the sake of change or based on educational research and data, he immediately ended the meeting and left.  Many people think change for just being change is exciting.  I think change that will result in meaningful improvements is exciting.  

Anyway, I think we are going to have two seasons in a row of these nonsensical advantages and twists and my fear is that too many fans/viewers will give up and that my beloved Survivor could be in danger of cancellation.  And if so?  It will all be due to the confusing twists and advantages that have been introduced.

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On 10/15/2021 at 9:11 PM, Fretful said:

Sydney is not as attractive as she thinks she is.  I'm not sure she's even in the top three this season (but I'm a middle-aged woman, so clearly not the demographic she was cast for)

Sydney is hot, but she's not that pretty. 

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My shallow pool ranking of S41's top women (don't hate me because you ain't me):

1. Liana - from what we've seen so far physically and personality-wise the most attractive woman this season.

2. Shan. I think she's cute enough, but I think she is already overexposed.

3. Sydney - Cute enough but I don't think she would be in the top 3 hotties in an average season.

4. Erika - I mostly just want to boop her nose.

I guess Sara is cute but I wouldn't have been able to picture her without going to the cast page so, not a standout.

And equal time for guys even though it's not my thing:

1. Danny: he seems strong, reliable - everything you might want in a contestant

2. Poor doomed JD. 

3. Xander, I guess?

This doesn't seem like a particularly strong season for either beefcake or cheesecake.

 

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Shan wasn't rubbing anything in with Genie. Genie was throwing a fit about losing her ally and Shan laid out exactly why Genie should not really care whether Brad was gone or not. 

Sydney is attractive. Don't know how savvy she is yet, but she's attractive enough. 

Two attractive, thin young women. I wondered which one would get the internet hate this season. Looks like it's two for the price of one. 

But at least they're not being called guys, I guess. 

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I don’t understand players like JD at all.  He had an extra vote in his hot little hands.  Talk to Genie, promise her whatever you need to, then the two of you take out Shan or Ricard!  So someone gets pissed, so what?  So maybe you’ll still get voted out next week, but maybe not.  Even if you fail, at least you tried something!!  Better than just handing your sole advantage away to someone who has not proven herself worthy of it as a “show of trust”.

I know they’re running on little food or sleep, and that can screw with your decision making process, but holy hell…if you’re going to fall apart that quickly, just don’t play at all!

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10 hours ago, CraftyHazel said:

I know they’re running on little food or sleep, and that can screw with your decision making process, but holy hell…if you’re going to fall apart that quickly, just don’t play at all!

To be fair, I'm not sure anyone knows how quickly they'll fall apart or in what specific way they will until they're actually playing. And some might be like Holly from Nicaragua, who fell apart spectacularly very early in the game and then rallied.

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12 hours ago, CraftyHazel said:

I don’t understand players like JD at all.  He had an extra vote in his hot little hands.  Talk to Genie, promise her whatever you need to, then the two of you take out Shan or Ricard!  So someone gets pissed, so what?  So maybe you’ll still get voted out next week, but maybe not.  Even if you fail, at least you tried something!!  Better than just handing your sole advantage away to someone who has not proven herself worthy of it as a “show of trust”.

I know they’re running on little food or sleep, and that can screw with your decision making process, but holy hell…if you’re going to fall apart that quickly, just don’t play at all!

From the comfort of my living room, I don't see why JD would trust Shan with the extra vote. Like, if you had ever seen Survivor or heard of the concept in the abstract, let alone been a superfan, you should have picked up that she has every incentive to backstab you and keep that extra vote for herself and none to let you back in the game.

However, I don't know that I would want to strike up a new alliance with Genie. I don't see what she brings to the table as a partner. I also would be reluctant to burn the extra vote as early as this in general, and in particular, if I thought that it was an easy 3-1 for Genie. 

Some players like Tiffany are way too paranoid, but JD's problem was the opposite.

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13 hours ago, CraftyHazel said:

I don’t understand players like JD at all.  He had an extra vote in his hot little hands.  Talk to Genie, promise her whatever you need to, then the two of you take out Shan or Ricard!  So someone gets pissed, so what?  So maybe you’ll still get voted out next week, but maybe not.  Even if you fail, at least you tried something!!  Better than just handing your sole advantage away to someone who has not proven herself worthy of it as a “show of trust”.

I know they’re running on little food or sleep, and that can screw with your decision making process, but holy hell…if you’re going to fall apart that quickly, just don’t play at all!

JD thought that he was in a very different position then he was. He couldn't read the tribe for the life of him. There were giant warning signs over Shan's head but JD managed to miss them.

Shan treated him differently then the other players. He managed to not understand how different her approach was to him then it was to Brad, Genie or Ricard. It was kind of crazy how he overlooked that Shan treated him like a teenager that was suppose to answer to her and not as an equal. 

Shan demanded loyalty and complete honesty from JD while providing neither to JD. And JD knew this was the case, he commented on it. He asked for his vote back because of it. But he missed that Shan didn't see him as anything other than a pawn. 

JD saw himself as the challenge lead and missed that Shan had no problems with JD making a fool of himself. No one offered to tap in during the challenges. They let JD keep on playing with his lame lay up attempts and crappy throws. Why? Because they either didn't care if they went to tribal (Shan and Ricard) or knew that they didn't want the target any more on their back (Genie)

JD missed that Shan took out Brad with his two potential advantages. He didn't see that Shan was leary of anyone with advantages. He gave Shan his advantage, twice, because he couldn't see that Shan wanted to be in control of the advantages. 

I think that JD was a younger player who was focused on how cool it was to be on Survivor and wanted to be a big name on the show. He was so focused on being a SURVIVOR player that he didn't do a good job of playing Survivor. 

 

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2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

He managed to not understand how different her approach was to him then it was to Brad, Genie or Ricard. It was kind of crazy how he overlooked that Shan treated him like a teenager that was suppose to answer to her and not as an equal.

Not that crazy given that he's a 20 year old college student. He hasn't been a legal adult that long and college still involves a lot of doing what other people tell you to do. When I was that age, I also would have failed to clock that I wasn't being treated like everyone else.

I generally think lying about about who you are and what you do in your normal life is pointless on Survivor, but for players in their early 20s or younger, I think there might be an argument for adding a couple of years to your age (assuming you can carry it off) simply to make your life in the game easier.

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