Show Spoilers and Book Talk

[katville]

I am about a quarter of a way into Drums of Autumn and every time that Duncan is on the page, I think, "Please let them turn Duncan into Murtagh." Save Murtagh!

[abbey]

I would love to see Murtagh saved, but Duncan Innes is a completely different personality than Murtagh.  I would have trouble seeing the former formidable Murtagh turned into a more passive Duncan.

[Nidratime]

But the thing is, the show has made much more of Murtagh than he was in the book, as well as Rupert and Angus. So, I'm assuming they can do the same with "Duncan."

[Petunia846]

Well if Murtagh survived he could still be in Ardsmuir with Jamie, or even worse he could be in another prison not knowing what happened to Jamie, or he could be sentenced to transport and sent to the colonies much sooner than Jamie and against his will. That kind of thing effects different people differently, so he could emerge as a very different man. Think about how much Jamie changed from the end of the war (the last time we actually get to see Murtagh) and their arrival in the colonies. There's no way Murtagh would be the exact same Murtagh all those years later, so that's what gives me the idea that he could be Duncan. Or look at it backwards: Imagine who Duncan was before the war and prison...I'd imagine he was pretty similar to Murtagh.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

Well if Murtagh survived he could still be in Ardsmuir with Jamie, or even worse he could be in another prison not knowing what happened to Jamie, or he could be sentenced to transport and sent to the colonies much sooner than Jamie and against his will. That kind of thing effects different people differently, so he could emerge as a very different man. Think about how much Jamie changed from the end of the war (the last time we actually get to see Murtagh) and their arrival in the colonies. There's no way Murtagh would be the exact same Murtagh all those years later, so that's what gives me the idea that he could be Duncan. Or look at it backwards: Imagine who Duncan was before the war and prison...I'd imagine he was pretty similar to Murtagh.

That's interesting because I just don't see any similarities between Duncan and Murtagh other than they are both fiercely loyal to Jamie. They have completely different personalities, IMO. Duncan needs someone to lead him, even before prison. That's why his marriage to Jocasta works. Jocasta makes the decisions and Duncan just provides a manly face for it all. That's not Murtagh, IMO. They could change the storyline, though, and make it work. It's not like Murtagh probably didn't know Jocasta, she is Ellen's sister, after all.  

I do wonder why Murtagh must be Duncan if he's saved, though? Can't he still be Murtagh and have his own storyline and they have a Duncan, too? I'm just not understanding what the point of saving Murtagh would be if they make him someone who is not Murtagh? 

[katville]

If they did save Murtagh, they would have to eliminate Duncan because does Jamie need two right hand men? I think that is why the thought popped in my head while reading DIA -- they might be two different personalities but they fill a similar role for Jamie. Although Murtagh does it with probably more love and affection, while Duncan's motivation is loyalty and respect.

Edited August 13, 2016 by katville

[DittyDotDot]

26 minutes ago, katville said:

If they did save Murtagh, they would have to eliminate Duncan because does Jamie need two right hand men? I think that is why the thought popped in my head while reading DIA -- they might be two different personalities but they fill a similar role for Jamie. Although Murtagh does it with probably more love and affection, while Duncan's motivation is loyalty and respect.

They may do similar jobs for Jamie, but they serve completely different functions in the story, IMO. Jamie has to earn Duncan and the other men's loyalty in prison. That's part of Jamie remaking himself and earning his place as Laird rather than it being his birthright. I'm just not sure that can happen with Murtagh standing next to him.

They could save Murtagh and have him transported to the colonies and found around the time Duncan marries Jocasta--that's when Duncan stops being Jamie's man and becomes Jocasta's. But even that, I don't know. So much of Jamie and Claire building the ridge is them carving a new life together in this new place. Putting Murtagh back in the story, kinda changes the story, IMO.

So, I'm thinking if they're going to do justice for Murtagh's character and the story, he needs to die at Culloden. He's the old way that dies on that battlefield and I'm not sure he really has a place in the new world. (Heh!)

[Glaze Crazy]

IIRC, Duncan's background is connected to the sea, on fishing boats and such, before the Rising. He's the one piloting the governor's "stolen" ship when Jamie and Claire go to Hispaniola to stop Gellis and get Young Ian back. 

Since Murtagh is around Jamie's parents ages, by the time the story moves to the New World he would probably be into his 60's or older. Remember, Arch Bug knew Jamie's father back in the day and he's much older than Jamie, so I would think Murtagh would be of a similar age at the same time, if he had survived. 

I feel that Murtagh as a character has fulfilled his purpose in Jamie's life by the time the Rising is over. Jamie is now a grown man and has to move forward. I've always felt that Jamie takes on what Murtagh's role was, when he becomes a second father to Young Ian, not to mention his role in Fergus' life too. Those relationships, in some ways, are similar to Murtagh's place in Jamie's young life.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Glaze Crazy
Spelling of some Scottish names is hard. Especially Murtagh.

[katville]

Honestly, I think my narrative gymnastics stems from how much I like ShowMurtagh and Duncan LaCroix's performance. I am just trying to find any reason to keep him. 

[Glaze Crazy]

Ah katville, I don't mean to quash yours or anyone else's musings about Murtagh living on in the tv show. I also really like the actor and how the character is portrayed by the series. If they keep him somehow I will be OK with it too. I just wanted to share some thoughts on what the loss of Murtagh (and many others) feeds part of Jamie's character going forward, allowing him to move further into the role of protector and Laird to the people he collects along his journey.

[Nidratime]

Terry is talking about season 3 costuming:

Outlander BTS Season 3: Emmy Nominated Terry Dresbach Gives a Glimpse into the S3 Costuming World

http://outlanderbts.com/outlander-bts-season-3-update-emmy-nominated-terry-dresbach-gives-glimpse-s3-costuming-world/

*****************

And Gary is tweeting about creating a Print Shop ... or a Prinshop, which is definitely a change from the book. ;-)

[Nidratime]

Spoilers ahead. There are photos circulating of an important event being filmed for Season 3 of Outlander. Don't look if you don't want to be SPOILED.

http://www.outlandertvnews.com/2016/08/outlander-behind-the-scenes-photos-of-sam-heughan-shooting-season-three/

[katville]

I am so ridiculously excited after seeing those photos. This is going to be epic!

[DittyDotDot]

Those are great @Nidratime. This indeed is going to be epic. I especially enjoyed the one with the Red Coat leaning on his gun, checking his phone while a highlander sits nearby looking shocked. Vera cute!

[CalamityBoPeep]

It's hard for me to tell at a distance, but is that Murtagh sitting on the tree stump? If so, I've a baaaad feeling about his trajectory. :-(  (Please let it not be Murtagh, please let it not be Murtagh... )

[Nidratime]

Here's a briefing two and a half minute interview with Ron during his time at that Edinburgh event the other day as well as a brief article about it. (I watched the entire on-stage presentation/interview on periscope, and I didn't think he said anything *really* new.)

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/7228235/Ronald-D-Moore-Id-love-to-drop-some-Klingons-into-Outlander.html

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

So I put this in the media thread too, but I don't know how much discussion can happen in that one so since I want to see what people have to say.....

Outlander finds its Lord John Grey....

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/08/29/outlander-lord-john-grey-voyager?xid=email-50scoops50days-20160829-readstory

I've seen this actor on an episode of Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries. Someone I work with is annoyed he's 6'1" (according to IMDB), but is withholding judgement until she see's him in action on the show.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Rilla-my-Rilla

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not concerned about the height, and will reserve judgement until I see him in action too, but my initial reaction was that he's too modern-pretty. I don't know how else to say it, but he's not the picture I had in my mind when reading. But then Cait looks nothing like the Claire I have in my mind and, IMO, that came off pretty damn well, so...

[Nidratime]

Quote

but my initial reaction was that he's too modern-pretty.

Funny enough, I think that's the reaction Gabaldon had when she first heard that Sam Heughan would play Jamie and looked up his photos. I think that's what she meant by "grotesque," i.e., he looked to much like a generic Calvin Klein model.

[morgan]

Definitely not the picture I had of him, but then again few of the actors are.  And yet I maintain it is a show with near perfect casting once I see them in their parts, so I have every confidence that I will love and accept him in this role.  

[toolazy]

I wonder how close they are to casting Hal, or even if they are going to cast Hal.  It doesn't have to be him that let's Jamie go.  Lord John could do it himself.  

[katville]

2 hours ago, Rilla-my-Rilla said:

So I put this in the media thread too, but I don't know how much discussion can happen in that one so since I want to see what people have to say.....

Outlander finds its Lord John Grey....

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/08/29/outlander-lord-john-grey-voyager?xid=email-50scoops50days-20160829-readstory

I've seen this actor on an episode of Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries. Someone I work with is annoyed he's 6'1" (according to IMDB), but is withholding judgement until she see's him in action on the show.

I know that he is supposed to be fine-boned in the books, but if they casted a shorter actor, would it be more difficult to film scenes with Heughan who is 6'3"?

[Glaze Crazy]

I don't think the height thing is an issue, since this is a visual medium. I think a big difference in the actors' heights might be more off-putting since both roles really are on equal levels of dignity, honor and upstanding character that they will look better as physical equals as well. I think in the book I forget Lord John's actual physical appearance irt height, since he is a strong leader and a great character. His height isn't a concern irt his book character after all. I wonder why Diana chose to make him so slight? Maybe to emphasize that size isn't all that when it comes to being a strong, good leader?

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

I think the height thing went out the window when they cast a tall Claire, but I think Cait does a great job so that's the important part. I think my coworker was like, after a tall Claire and a shorter Bree with 2 tall parents, John should be on the shorter side of things. So I had to burst her bubble on that, but I doubt she's really that fussed.  I'm sure he'll be fine.

[morgan]

Maybe because they are creating the world that is to be for the duration?  I know the house at frasers ridge evolves, but the rest of it.  Voyager is such a transitional book, one that gets them from where they were to where they will be (or close enough).  I'm sure the sets and costumes will be amazing.  And I know in DIA show wise they were temporary sets/costumes, but I think there was something challenging and exciting and fun about re-creating France for them.  But I wonder if part of the challenge for season 4 is doing something that will last, that they will be satisfied with.  

Its funny, when I think of the books I often divide them in my mind...the trilogy of Outlander, DIA, Voyager, and then a separate unit of all the rest.  

Edited August 31, 2016 by morgan

[katville]

3 hours ago, Grashka said:

Here is a very interesting interview with Terry Dresbach and John G. Steele regarding costumes, art designs and behind the scenes work on "Outlander" - I never get tired of all those fascinating details and historical tidbits from their research. Anyway, they talk a little about challenges of making season 3, and this caught my attention:

It's interesting because I posted once, that season 2 is probably the last chance for the crew to display flamboyant costumes and  grand sets on such a scale.

So I wonder, what about season 4 would make it comparable to the splendid visuals of season 2? (I mean costumes, sets and art design, not locations which surely are going to be beautiful). Most of DOA takes place in a wilderness, where C&J start building Fraser's Ridge. In this book/season it's just a mere hut. They are hanging around Jocasta's mansion from time to time - and it's the only huge, new set that occures to me. Then there is already established Lallybroch set for Brianna's visit, and several chapters happening in Inverness and Boston in '60s, which would be a direct continuation from season 3. So, why this season is going to be "huge" compared to season 3 (which is going to have ships, shipwrecks and locations from Scotland to Jamaica)?

http://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/film-tv/news/a17388/outlander-costume-designer-production-designer-interview/?src=socialflowTW

I thought at first that it will be the Gathering but that is book 5, isn't it? I think it might be huge for them because they will be creating all of the costumes for America, with lots of new characters joining the fold.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, Grashka said:

Here is a very interesting interview with Terry Dresbach and John G. Steele regarding costumes, art designs and behind the scenes work on "Outlander" - I never get tired of all those fascinating details and historical tidbits from their research. Anyway, they talk a little about challenges of making season 3, and this caught my attention:

It's interesting because I posted once, that season 2 is probably the last chance for the crew to display flamboyant costumes and  grand sets on such a scale.

So I wonder, what about season 4 would make it comparable to the splendid visuals of season 2? (I mean costumes, sets and art design, not locations which surely are going to be beautiful). Most of DOA takes place in a wilderness, where C&J start building Fraser's Ridge. In this book/season it's just a mere hut. They are hanging around Jocasta's mansion from time to time - and it's the only huge, new set that occures to me. Then there is already established Lallybroch set for Brianna's visit, and several chapters happening in Inverness and Boston in '60s, which would be a direct continuation from season 3. So, why this season is going to be "huge" compared to season 3 (which is going to have ships, shipwrecks and locations from Scotland to Jamaica)?

http://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/film-tv/news/a17388/outlander-costume-designer-production-designer-interview/?src=socialflowTW

Do we know if they're going to move production out of Scotland when the story moves to the Colonies? That might be what the challenge is, either creating a believable 1700s colonial America in Scotland or moving the entire production somewhere new. 

[katville]

Good point. I hope they do bring production to America, I was just in that part of NC last fall and it is a beautiful area.

[Clawdette]

We in the western part of North Carolina would throw a parade if Outlander filmed here.  But, alas, the state has ceased to offer filming incentives and so far, our odious and notorious "bathroom" bill has not been repealed.  Not looking good for our beautiful state.

Note:  the movie Serena, written by an NC novelist and set in western NC, was filmed in the Czech Republic.  Sigh

[toolazy]

I'm pretty sure that I've heard Ron Moore say that they will continue to be based in Scotland. 

[Nidratime]

Glasgow pretending to be Boston:

http://outlanderitaly.tumblr.com/post/150731092666/outlander-news-outlander-stars-caitriona-balfe

[morgan]

I knew it was too much to hope that they would come here to Boston to film.  Great news to see them filming, can't wait!  One question....is it really that cold already for Catriona to need that full length puffer coat?  Yikes!  Maybe because we are having prolonged summer here I can't even imagine needing that for a long time.

[Nidratime]

More photos:

http://aherron79.tumblr.com/post/150735879398/outlander-news-tobias-menzies-and-caitriona

[Athena]

2 hours ago, morgan said:

I knew it was too much to hope that they would come here to Boston to film.  Great news to see them filming, can't wait!  One question....is it really that cold already for Catriona to need that full length puffer coat?  Yikes!  Maybe because we are having prolonged summer here I can't even imagine needing that for a long time.

Scotland is damp cold most of the year and it is windy. I've been there at this time of year and it can be quite cool. Actors will often wear less on camera than off (pretending it's summer rather than autumn) so they always have the puffy coats for the actors. She may be too warm, but it's better than being in period clothing without enough warmth.

[Dust Bunny]

1 hour ago, morgan said:

One question....is it really that cold already for Catriona to need that full length puffer coat?  Yikes!  Maybe because we are having prolonged summer here I can't even imagine needing that for a long time.

I got back from my kick-ass Scotland trip two weeks ago. It's all about layers. There can be a 15 degree difference between sun and shade, especially when you factor in wind. I wore short sleeve shirts with a sweatshirt and a jacket. There were 15 minute intervals when I would take off or put on one or both of the top layers 2 or 3 times. 

Incidentally, I spent over three hours trying to decide which pants to bring. Just before I left, I tossed in a second pair of shorts, just in case. I ended up wearing those two pairs of shorts 75% of the time. I like freer legs for walking and climbing, and I'm from Minnesota. As long as I was warm on top, I was good. It's all relative and about personal comfort.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[morgan]

That all makes sense.  Layers make sense in New England, too, but it's just been so warm here still!  

DB, so jealous of your trip to Scotland!  Someday I hope to get there.  What all did you do?

[Dust Bunny]

On 9/21/2016 at 3:24 PM, morgan said:

That all makes sense.  Layers make sense in New England, too, but it's just been so warm here still!  

DB, so jealous of your trip to Scotland!  Someday I hope to get there.  What all did you do?

I'll answer in the small talk thread.

[AheadofStraight]

This is a pretty big spoiler for non-book readers. Surprised they are letting her tweet this? Or do they just not care anymore? :)

[Petunia846]

Wow. Yeah. Oh well?

[lianau]

I think spoilerphobes wouldn't follow actors on twitter  and  book readers and spoiler friendly non-readers don't care . 

[WatchrTina]

As someone pointed out on Twitter, there are a lot of Scots named Fraser, including the one she was flirting with in the episode "The Fox's Lair".   So not a huge spoiler for someone who hasn't read the book.  They are unlikely to even remember that tweet by the time Season 3 airs.  But I'll bet she will get fussed at by someone for posting that.

[Clawdette]

Entertainment Weekly has a story about its article about the new season of Outlander.  It has info that's spoilery if it is correct.  I know this is a spoiler thread but am tagging just in case.

Spoiler

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/29/outlander-season-3-sam-heughan-cover?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

Edited September 29, 2016 by Clawdette

[Nidratime]

Gorgeous photo, but I wonder what this is all about. (Clearly, Ron writing the first episode means there's going to be a lot of non-book scenes.)

[Summer]

1 hour ago, Nidratime said:

 

Gorgeous photo, but I wonder what this is all about. (Clearly, Ron writing the first episode means there's going to be a lot of non-book scenes.)

 

I suspect it's either some kind of dream from Jamie's POV "seeing" Claire on the battlefield, or I was thinking it could be Claire walking through Culloden in 20th century juxtaposed with what happened there, if that make sense (not sure I explained it all that well lol)

Edited September 29, 2016 by Summer

[morgan]

Omg it is way too early for me to be getting this excited!  The pics are amazing though and I can't not look.  

[katville]

20 hours ago, Summer said:

I suspect it's either some kind of dream from Jamie's POV "seeing" Claire on the battlefield, or I was thinking it could be Claire walking through Culloden in 20th century juxtaposed with what happened there, if that make sense (not sure I explained it all that well lol)

That is what I thought too. Balfe has a natural ethereal look that makes the image all the more haunting.

I have a digital subscription to EW and just read the article. I can say it did nothing to quench the Droughtlander as much as it made me want season three. Right. Now. As the first half of Voyager is my favorite of the whole series (and the second half is growing on me, I admit), I think this is going to be my favorite season of the show.

Edited September 30, 2016 by katville

[Nidratime]

A bit of a spoilery scene from Diana, if they keep it in.

[morgan]

Oh I hope they keep it in, too!

Just got my ew today and once again I am shocked by how much they give away without warning about spoilers.  They used to be a lot better at warning readers!   Glad I already have read the books, but for someone who prefers not to there are some significant plot points that they reveal.  

[Dust Bunny]

On 10/3/2016 at 3:10 PM, Nidratime said:

A bit of a spoilery scene from Diana, if they keep it in.

I hope they include that too. Having been there, I'm so glad they're including Culloden. In the amazing visitor center, the last room is a 360 immersion video of a reenactment of the start of Culloden, and you stand or sit smack between Jacobite and English lines (including British flanking maneuvers on the side). I got emotionally nauseated (those words seem to describe it) in that room. The actual moor is like Gettysburg or Shanksville, Pennsylvania: you can feel the power of what happened there. That land is holy. (I was expecting to be sad. I did NOT expect to be furious at how the Jacobites may have been led into slaughter, via treason, but that's a whole other story.) When my friends from my trip and I saw the EW cover, we were all so thankful they're depicting the actual battle. Culloden is so damn formative, not just for the characters, but Scotland's identity itself.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[Clawdette]

Spot-on casting, I think.