S03.E11: The Call is Coming from Inside the House

[Sakura12]

Quote

While Crane sets his ultimate sights on Nightwing. Gar and Donna investigate Red Hood's place of re-birth, Donna and Tim reconnect in the real world and Kory learns the truth about her past.  

[cdnalor]

Of course, Superboy has to be kept out of the fight because...um, no reason, I guess?  This reminds me of how the Justice League animated show had to sideline Superman at the beginning of many episodes, otherwise the other heroes would have nothing to do.   I was glad Nightwing was getting the crap kicked out of him at the end after dosing poor Krypto with green K.  Serves him right.

[Sakura12]

Am I supposed to feel bad for Dick for making the same stupid mistake every single time?  He always goes at it alone and fails. Be a better Batman should mean take backup if you have it. There is no reason besides his own ego to fight Jason alone. You'd also think Batman would've taught him not turn his back on someone with a gun. He knows the town is crazy because of the water. 

I'm glad Donna went to find Tim first instead of the Titans. Although she should've showed up and scared Jason, making him think he's seeing dead people. She could've brought up Hank and Tim too. That would've made him stop. 

Not sure what's going on with Rachel. She seems different then the Rachel on Themyscira. At first I thought it wasn't her, but it seems it is. 

And Kory's powers were really her sister's. So Kommand'r got hers back and Kory has different powers. 

They really needed to have more storylines then just the Red Hood and Crane one. Dragging it out for the whole seasons is making it boring and making the characters act dumb just to keep it going. 

[Snapdragon]

I don't even know what I'm watching anymore.  I binged seasons 1 and 2 of this last summer and while it was never the greatest show, it had its moments and was entertaining enough that I'd want to go ahead with the next episode.  This season though?  It's a chore just to get through each week's episode.  There are only two episodes left and I'm still waiting for some kind of coherent story to form.  I still don't understand Jason's motivation at all (he's mad at Batman so he teams up with a villian and just starts murdering people willy nilly?), Tim Drake is pointless and the Blackfire plot has been a huge disappointment.  Then there's whatever the heck is going on with Donna and Raven.  *sigh* 

[Cthulhudrew]

54 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

Of course, Superboy has to be kept out of the fight because...um, no reason, I guess? 

Yep. Sideline the most powerful member of the team, because the show would be over and the audience would have nothing to watch is apparently what Dick was thinking. So dumb.

Was that Big Head from Silicon Valley playing the pizza guy?

[Snapdragon]

33 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

 

Was that Big Head from Silicon Valley playing the pizza guy?

It was the guy who played Gerald (Janet's friend from photography schoo)l on Kim's Convenience.  

[Nellise]

5 hours ago, cdnalor said:

Of course, Superboy has to be kept out of the fight because...um, no reason, I guess?  This reminds me of how the Justice League animated show had to sideline Superman at the beginning of many episodes, otherwise the other heroes would have nothing to do.   I was glad Nightwing was getting the crap kicked out of him at the end after dosing poor Krypto with green K.  Serves him right.

Now, unlike Jason, Superboy does actually have a reason to go after Nightwing. Nightwing literally poisoned him and Krypto just for wanting to help. This is one of those shows where I start wondering if the main character is the villain of the whole thing because Nightwing is really the worst. I guess this might be a good way for them to get rid of Superboy so they don't have to keep sidelining him so he doesn't solve every problem in 2 seconds.

I wonder if Scarecrow would be interesting with a good actor because all of his scenes are painful to watch.

[sugarbaker design]

This whole season's a head scratcher.  

Why have a character like Superboy if you're going to relegate him to cyber stuff and being sidelined?  Makes no sense.

Why jettison 2/3 of the female contingent of the Titans for the first two thirds of the season?  Makes no sense.

How does the main character poison a dog and expect to be the hero?  Nightwing must've lost 75% of the audience last night.

Barbara Gordon is only interesting when she's Batgirl or Oracle.  Why feature her when she's in the interim?  Makes no sense.

This show had huge potential, what a waste.

[Jenniferbug]

13 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

I don't even know what I'm watching anymore.  I binged seasons 1 and 2 of this last summer and while it was never the greatest show, it had its moments and was entertaining enough that I'd want to go ahead with the next episode.  This season though?  It's a chore just to get through each week's episode.  There are only two episodes left and I'm still waiting for some kind of coherent story to form.  I still don't understand Jason's motivation at all (he's mad at Batman so he teams up with a villian and just starts murdering people willy nilly?), Tim Drake is pointless and the Blackfire plot has been a huge disappointment.  Then there's whatever the heck is going on with Donna and Raven.  *sigh* 

I loved the first 2 seasons, warts and all. This season I didn't make it past 5 (?) episodes. I didn't rage quit or anything. I just sort of lost any desire to watch. I follow along here and will probably binge watch at some point, but it's disappointing after how invested I felt in the earlier seasons. 

[tennisgurl]

I really do not get what is going on with this show. This show has always been really flawed, but at least it usually had some fun or interesting episodes or ideas, this season is just a chore to get through. I never know what is happening or what half the characters motivations are, half the cast is overused and half is underused (Conner who?) depending on where they fit into the show runners Batman dream project, it isn't fun or exciting anymore, its just annoying. 

The Red Hood arc feels like its been going on for about a thousand years, this show just cannot handle a long season long story like this, its dragging so much its painful. The season would have been a million times better if they had added in some smaller arcs or stand alone episodes. We have been stuck with only his story and the tiresome Blackfire story for WAY too long. 

Dick just cannot learn a lesson to save his life. Literally.

Glad to know that pizza delivery guys can make it through security perimeter that surrounds a huge city under martial law to deliver, talk about thirty minutes or less. Maybe we should hire the pizza guy to be Gotham's new savior, the ones we have aren't going so well. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Primal Slayer]

Every week I question why I put myself through this pile of poop of a show....this episode gave me a headache it was just so bad.

After 3 seasons and all these stupid amnesia/vision storylines (thats been Starfires entire arch since the show began) we finally get a glimpse of Tamaran and her homeworld is just as stupid as Earth. What do the writers appear to do? They take the character of Starfire and be like "SIKE! Starfire aint even Starfire! She's actually more like Blackfire." So she wasnt born with powers so her parents stole her sisters powers to give to Starfire and treat Blackfire like the blacksheep of the family only for Blackfire to unintentionally steal her powers back, Starfire to track down a random child, get shot so she can unleash her true power which appears to be black fire which is what Blackfire has in the comics......WHAT? Why are they messing up Starfires entire storyline when they had it perfectly written out for them by Perez/Wolfman?

Dick wants to fight Jason but doesnt want Superboy who is mini Superman to help in the fight because of.....reasons? So he uses....Kryptonite dust? to put him and Krypto to sleep? Fights Jason and gets shot (very popular this season) and beat up by some idiotic Gotham citizens.

Tim has a whole secret lair that his parents didnt know about (why would you use such a huge space just for rice and you never check it out for over a year?) that has internet connection or whatever...he's more Oracle than Oracle.

Why don't Donna and Conner use their superspeed to find the Titans? They are SUPERS, they can handle themselves if someone tries to beat them up. This whole "Titans are separated and cant find each other because the internet is down" is ridiculous.

[Cthulhudrew]

On 10/7/2021 at 7:00 PM, Snapdragon said:

It was the guy who played Gerald (Janet's friend from photography schoo)l on Kim's Convenience.  

Ohhhh! No wonder he looked familiar; I just couldn't place him. Thanks!

[Quark]

Meh episode.

Dick poisoning Connor is probably one of the most stupid decisions he has ever made.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:12 PM, Snapdragon said:

I still don't understand Jason's motivation at all (he's mad at Batman so he teams up with a villian and just starts murdering people willy nilly?),

I mean, I can sorta understand the broad strokes of it. 

Jason's been left mentally messed up on multiple levels. Being a street kid and then getting trained by borderline psycho Batman left tons of scars. Then his near-death experience with Deathstroke gave him serious PTSD on top of that.

Bruce tried to set him up with a conventional therapist in Leslie Thompkins but that wasn't working for him. So he comes up with the bright idea of seeing someone who specializes in fear to see if he could get over his fear. Sure, he should realize going to one of Batman's villains is a BAD IDEA, but hey, he's a kid and he's he's half-insane. 

Then he goes on the drugs, which make him think even less straight, plus add in addiction issues. 

There are lots of problems with this, though. One is that the Red Hood actor isn't particularly good. Another is that the writers seem to not know if they want to have Jason be 100 percent villain. They should realize that given how much blood Jason has on his hands, there's simply no redemption arc that would work. A third is they keep having to give Jason too much credit to make him a plausible antagonist. Jason is a headstrong, pretty dumb kid of (let's say) 19. There is no way he is going to outthink or fight Nightwing. even in a one-on-one fight. So first they have Dick literally poison his supposed family member (and his little dog too).  Then they have a rando shoot him. 

[Affogato]

On 10/9/2021 at 3:17 PM, Quark said:

Meh episode.

Dick poisoning Connor is probably one of the most stupid decisions he has ever made.

Dick is trying to not be batman. He is trying not to endanger or traumatize children.

Connor is a child. The original Superboy had years of unconditional love, support and ethical modeling from Jonathan and Martha and learned to fight in a structured organized teamteam (legion of superheroes) with people who were (many of them) capable of holding their own with him. This is not true of Connor. Connor is a five year old at best, who feels responsible for Hank dying, is horrified that people don't like him or his teammates, and who has a black and white view of the world. Dick is reasonably afraid he will do something impulsive they will all regret later.

Ironically, Batman is superman's fall back if Superman needs someone to take him out--that is almost certainly where the dust comes from...and Batman makes decisions on his own without consulting others and lives with the consequences himself (Superman relies on this) and Dick, while trying to avoid Batman's mistakes, is behaving just like Batman and using batman's tools.

But, no, Dick is in many ways right. Connor should not be a fighting member of the team, except in very controlled settings. Also, yes, putting them out of commission is going to bite him on the ass.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Affogato

[Affogato]

This show is about identity. Who will Bruce Wayne be if Batman no longer exists. At the beginning we meet Dick and he still is hanging on to the Robin suit. He burns it and it takes him a while to put on the Nightwing suit. Is this a fundamental change in who he is or is he using the suits to try to force a fundamental change? People have complained that scarecrow doesn't wear his silly outfit, but at the end of this episode we find out that is the point. He is trying to find out if he is still the (scary and manipulative) person he wants to be without his suit. So he applauds Jason for taking off the red hood mask.

Kory, too, loses what she thinks makes her special, not just the power but the marker of royalty, but she seems to find a way forward, as has the refugee she meets in the convenience store. Donna has decided to become the Amazon leader she was raised to be, instead of the human photographer we saw in the beginning of the show. Dick is still struggling.

I suspect in the next season or two, if they happen, Connor is going to wrestle with his dual nature.

I don't know about Jason, I don't think he needs a 'redemption arc'. Really when you do horrible things you learn to deal with it and work on not doing them again or you don't.  If he dies saving a busload of school children it won't get rid of the things he did. We know he has it in him to be heroic at times and a villain, too.

This show is a slow burn.

[Affogato]

On 10/8/2021 at 10:07 AM, sugarbaker design said:

This whole season's a head scratcher.  

Why have a character like Superboy if you're going to relegate him to cyber stuff and being sidelined?  Makes no sense.

Why jettison 2/3 of the female contingent of the Titans for the first two thirds of the season?  Makes no sense.

How does the main character poison a dog and expect to be the hero?  Nightwing must've lost 75% of the audience last night.

Barbara Gordon is only interesting when she's Batgirl or Oracle.  Why feature her when she's in the interim?  Makes no sense.

This show had huge potential, what a waste.

Honestly it is making sense to me. Superboy isn't 'Superboy' yet. Hes a superpowered child. Scary. Raven needed to learn self control, Donna needed to figure out if she wants to be a hero.

Interesting characters are allowed to be heroes, and supportive and loving and jerks and selfish and even sometimes restrict the freedom of others without there permission, do drugs, fall into a depression or fits of rage,  sometimes even kill and enjoy punching people repeatedly in the face. This is why people make movie after movie about Batman and every writer has an idea for a Batman story. It is possible that this Dick Grayson may never be a candidate for a picture on your kid's lunchbox, but it is possible he'll end up being a memorable character.

I like Barbara Gordon in this story and I want to know what she does next. I like that the Batman/Jason relationship is being held up to the twisted Mirror of scarecrow/Jason.

I also tend to like the stories I like in comics and often walk away when the authors change. I tried to read Birds of Prey after the New 52 and just couldn't get into it. So, for me and probably everyone else, mileage varies.

I bet Gar turns into a bat soon.

 

[Affogato]

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One is that the Red Hood actor isn't particularly good. Another is that the writers seem to not know if they want to have Jason be 100 percent villain.

Kartheiser is carrying most of the weight of the villain side of the couch.

 

[Nellise]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Connor is a child.

Connor is not a child. They showed him fucking just a bit ago. He's maybe naive, but he's certainly not a child.

[Affogato]

54 minutes ago, Nellise said:

Connor is not a child. They showed him fucking just a bit ago. He's maybe naive, but he's certainly not a child.

Metaphorically speaking. Childlike. Morally unformed. Socially inexperienced. Experientially challenged. 
 

even Blackfyre felt guilty there.  

Edited October 11, 2021 by Affogato

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 10/10/2021 at 6:03 PM, Affogato said:

Dick is trying to not be batman. He is trying not to endanger or traumatize children.

Connor is a child. The original Superboy had years of unconditional love, support and ethical modeling from Jonathan and Martha and learned to fight in a structured organized teamteam (legion of superheroes) with people who were (many of them) capable of holding their own with him. This is not true of Connor. Connor is a five year old at best, who feels responsible for Hank dying, is horrified that people don't like him or his teammates, and who has a black and white view of the world. Dick is reasonably afraid he will do something impulsive they will all regret later.

Ironically, Batman is superman's fall back if Superman needs someone to take him out--that is almost certainly where the dust comes from...and Batman makes decisions on his own without consulting others and lives with the consequences himself (Superman relies on this) and Dick, while trying to avoid Batman's mistakes, is behaving just like Batman and using batman's tools.

But, no, Dick is in many ways right. Connor should not be a fighting member of the team, except in very controlled settings. Also, yes, putting them out of commission is going to bite him on the ass.

Sucker-punching someone who trusts him and poisoning him (and his dog) with one of the rare substances known to exist that can hurt him is a funny way for Dick to show he's trying not to endanger or traumatize Connor. 

Dick is trying to "be a better Batman." But he keeps on making moves that this universe's messed-up version of Batman would do: keeping secrets from his teammates and allies for no particular reason, going alone when he could easily bring backup, making largely unilateral decisions. Sometimes I wish they had just called the series "Nightwing" and kept all the other characters out of it. Because it seems like the powers that be are really only interested in Dick's following (or not) in Batman's footsteps rather than developing any of the other characters' journeys. 

For all of Connor's supposed immaturity, Dick had no problem with having him in at least two fighting situations this season (the premiere when they busted up some rando crime ring and later when they specifically stopped Scarecrow's gang.) So it's not really "Oh, we can't trust Connor to control himself in a fighting situation" that might be motivating Dick, or if it is, the writers have not articulated why suddenly Dick has reversed himself and no longer trusts Connor.

The real reason, of course, is because the writers know that if Connor was involved, any fight with Jason would be the proverbial two-hit fight (tm Breakfast Club): Connor hitting Jason, Jason hitting the floor. But to give an in-universe reason why Dick would sideline Connor took more work than the writers were apparently willing to put forth.  

[Hanahope]

so apparently all it took for the sheep of gotham to believe the titans poisoned the water was to be the first one to say so on TV.  gee, you'd think the titans and barbara would have thought of that and done it against red hood/scare crow.  people are so stupid and apparently the writers think the viewers are too.  

[blackwing]

I agree with the comments above that this season is crashing and burning.  The whole separate storylines of each character, leading up to this season-long confrontation with Crane and Jason... just simply stupid.  I am beyond tired of both Crane and Jason.  If I were writing this season, I would have Connor find them in a matter of seconds and throw them into space.  Easy peasy.

I don't understand why Connor and Donna can't easily find the rest of the team.  Connor can simply listen for them.  Donna can superspeed around all over to the usual places.

I'm intrigued by Starfire having found her original powers.  Instead of orange fire, it appears to be some kind of blue light that is an offensive weapon but also heals her?  I missed seeing Blackfire this episode, I guess she is off on her own now?

Please get the team back together and kick the butts of both Crane and Jason.

On 10/8/2021 at 12:46 AM, Nellise said:

I wonder if Scarecrow would be interesting with a good actor because all of his scenes are painful to watch.

On 10/10/2021 at 6:51 PM, Affogato said:

Kartheiser is carrying most of the weight of the villain side of the couch.

Painful is the perfect description.  I cringe every time he is on and always am tempted to hit the +15 seconds button.  I think Vincent Kartheiser believes that he knocked it out of the park, but I think his portrayal has been laughingly bad.  It's obvious that he is doing a Joaquin Phoenix Joker imitation, and he's doing it badly.  The bad long hair, the dancing, the singing, the self-satisfied smirk.  I don't get it.  He must have known that he would be compared to the Joker and yet he's doing it anyway.  The only thing that would redeem him is if it is revealed that somehow he was the Joker all along, and that "Jonathan Crane" was just another identity.

On 10/10/2021 at 8:29 PM, Affogato said:

Metaphorically speaking. Childlike. Morally unformed. Socially inexperienced. Experientially challenged. 

 

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

For all of Connor's supposed immaturity, Dick had no problem with having him in at least two fighting situations this season (the premiere when they busted up some rando crime ring and later when they specifically stopped Scarecrow's gang.) So it's not really "Oh, we can't trust Connor to control himself in a fighting situation" that might be motivating Dick, or if it is, the writers have not articulated why suddenly Dick has reversed himself and no longer trusts Connor.

The real reason, of course, is because the writers know that if Connor was involved, any fight with Jason would be the proverbial two-hit fight (tm Breakfast Club): Connor hitting Jason, Jason hitting the floor. But to give an in-universe reason why Dick would sideline Connor took more work than the writers were apparently willing to put forth.  

I don't agree that Connor is childlike.  At least not this season.  Last season, maybe, when he literally escaped out of that vat.  But this season, he's been shown to have grown quickly.  Last season he barely even knew who he was.  This season, he is fully aware of his legacy from Superman and Lex Luthor.  He knows his physical strength.  He knows how quick his mind is and was able to absorb the knowledge of how to build the bomb deactivator fairly quickly.  Above all, I think from this episode it seems obvious that he knows what it means to be part of a team/family, and he just wants to contribute.

I don't think Dick's concern is that "Connor is a child so who knows what he will do, he may go out of control".  We saw a little bit of his vengeance streak when he saw his F-buddy cut down in the police ambush.  And these were all cops who had drank the water and were under the influence of Crane, so it's not like they had clean hands.

I agree that the sidelining of Connor is purely because any fight would be over in a second.  Nonetheless, the kryptonite powder was just stupid.  Dick could have just said to Connor that "this is something I have to do alone, for my honour and for the legacy of Batman and Bruce".

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

 

 

I don't agree that Connor is childlike.  At least not this season.  Last season, maybe, when he literally escaped out of that vat.  But this season, he's been shown to have grown quickly.  Last season he barely even knew who he was.  This season, he is fully aware of his legacy from Superman and Lex Luthor.  He knows his physical strength.  He knows how quick his mind is and was able to absorb the knowledge of how to build the bomb deactivator fairly quickly.  Above all, I think from this episode it seems obvious that he knows what it means to be part of a team/family, and he just wants to contribute.

 

You are forgetting how upset he was to find out that they weren't being thought of as heroes. there are lots of little clues. Yes he almost certainly has learned to manage his body and mind, but he still lacks experience and judgement, and that has been clear this season. 

[Affogato]

21 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Sucker-punching someone who trusts him and poisoning him (and his dog) with one of the rare substances known to exist that can hurt him is a funny way for Dick to show he's trying not to endanger or traumatize Connor. 

Dick is trying to "be a better Batman." But he keeps on making moves that this universe's messed-up version of Batman would do: keeping secrets from his teammates and allies for no particular reason, going alone when he could easily bring backup, making largely unilateral decisions. Sometimes I wish they had just called the series "Nightwing" and kept all the other characters out of it. Because it seems like the powers that be are really only interested in Dick's following (or not) in Batman's footsteps rather than developing any of the other characters' journeys. 

For all of Connor's supposed immaturity, Dick had no problem with having him in at least two fighting situations this season (the premiere when they busted up some rando crime ring and later when they specifically stopped Scarecrow's gang.) So it's not really "Oh, we can't trust Connor to control himself in a fighting situation" that might be motivating Dick, or if it is, the writers have not articulated why suddenly Dick has reversed himself and no longer trusts Connor.

The real reason, of course, is because the writers know that if Connor was involved, any fight with Jason would be the proverbial two-hit fight (tm Breakfast Club): Connor hitting Jason, Jason hitting the floor. But to give an in-universe reason why Dick would sideline Connor took more work than the writers were apparently willing to put forth.  

Yes but they were fighting situations that Dick was fairly strongly in control of and control of Connor. Dick ishaving issues with letting people be out of his control. Makes sense.  I think the scarecrow gang fight was where he became afraid Connor was going to lose it against Jason and do something Connor would regret later. You could see him decide Connor needed to be kept out of it. Also, in the batfamily dynamic getting suckerpunched when you refused to follow orders is pretty much something you need to expect in a wartime situation. 

Yeah, in general the superman family is a real burden to any writer forced to deal with them, and that includes the superman writers. Always has been. There have been interviews.  One reason Superman and Lois works is it is mostly the relatable family issues. One reason Lois and Clark worked was the romance. etc. I think Connor potentially has an identity crisis that can be made interesting (and Dick's betrayal may be a factor to push him into that) but basically the show- would be better without him. 

My only real point is that what is happening in the show is coherent and makes sense in the context of the show and characters as they have been set up in the show. It may be easier for me to see because I'm not a huge fan of most of these characters, with the exception of the bat family (and frankly I would have voted to kill Jason if it hadn't been a 900 number,  I remember considering it).

I think they are dropping the ball with Barbara. And Jason could even be more evil, but we could see him thinking about it. So far I don't think I see an end that really carries me into the next season, unless--Connor!--and shrug. I'd watch a spinoff with Barbara and Tim, though. Gar could join them. 

 

[millennium]

I've had my fill of the defilement of Wayne Manor and the Batcave.  

There is a German word meaning "a face that is begging to be punched."   Jason Todd's picture appears next to that entry in the German dictionary.

 

[blackwing]

3 hours ago, millennium said:

I've had my fill of the defilement of Wayne Manor and the Batcave.  

There is a German word meaning "a face that is begging to be punched."   Jason Todd's picture appears next to that entry in the German dictionary.

Nah, that's Vincent Kartheiser for sure.  Even back on "Mad Men" I always thought he had a very punchable face.  My dislike of Pete already made me pre-dispositioned to hate him here, and his bad, over-the-top "acting" certainly didn't do anything to erase that perception.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 10/14/2021 at 5:02 AM, millennium said:

I've had my fill of the defilement of Wayne Manor and the Batcave.  

There is a German word meaning "a face that is begging to be punched."   Jason Todd's picture appears next to that entry in the German dictionary.

 

What is that word? I think it needs to be brought in my vocabulary along with schadenfreude. :)

[AES13]

I liked the show because it was entertaining garbage.  Too bad it's not entertaining any more.

I don't understand the decisions these people are making because they make no sense.  My sneaking suspicion is that the writers have a number of moments from the comics that they want to re-create in "real" life but they don't want to have to write the appropriate context for why those moments are meaningful.  It's a real shame that with such rich source material, they are reduced to writing scenes such a team leader who incapacitates the strongest member of the team for "reasons".

2 episodes to go!  I can't wait to find out why we are supposed to let Jason off the hook for murdering people.