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S9E15: Agree to Disagree


druzy
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I’ve never paid much attention to Josh because… well, obviously, so maybe this has come up before, but has he had a problem with opioids? His nonstop gravelly vocal fry deal in this episode sounded exactly like the people on Intervention who are hooked on OxyContin or Fentanyl. He was able to stand normally and use a hot stove, so maybe that’s just his natural, ugly voice. IDK.

That whole family is depressing. Mackenzie is beautiful and seems to be good at the fitness thing, but she’s an idiot in ways that can really harm others, including her own unlikable children. I never see Jaxie, but the boys make my skin crawl. They’re both so defiant and sullen looking. I am a mean old grownup who doesn’t think all kids are cute. Hers don’t seem like they’ll have a chance to grow into functional, productive adults, but we can hope.

Most of the women on this show reinforce a theory I’ve gotten from teaching college for 10+ years. The awareness around mental health has improved, and it’s starting to be destigmatized, which is definitely good. But I think it also catalyzes mental illness thinking patterns in people, especially young adults, who might have otherwise dealt with a thing and moved on. I don’t doubt that Maci, Amber, and Catelynn all have real issues. I just wonder if there could’ve been more progress if they weren’t so enabled to get stuck on a diagnosis as an identity. 

Edited by JocelynCavanaugh
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1 hour ago, IDreamofJoaquin said:

My 12-year-old asked me why I watch these people just living their lives and I didn't have an answer.   I think I might end things after this season or even before that.  It truly is a waste of time.  I'm not even going to try and watch the spin-off series. 

But, Teen Mom single-handedly brought down the teen pregnancy rate! 

They are now an object lesson in how you can end up being shiftless, lazy, trashy people and crappy parents. 

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43 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

But, Teen Mom single-handedly brought down the teen pregnancy rate! 

They are now an object lesson in how you can end up being shiftless, lazy, trashy people and crappy parents. 

It’s because it is NOT ACCURATE!  Some of my friends who were teen moms were on welfare for a time, others had family help

they all struggled to get jobs & get educated on little to no time or sleep.  None of them got rich off it, or had people applauding their bad choices. 
 

kind of wish we had occasional check-ins w/the “regular” 16 & Pregnant girls

 

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I thought I read on this forum a year or so ago that Mackenzie said that Bronc's teeth issues were from a medication he had to take early on for....his heart, maybe?  I don't remember exactly, but that's what comes to mind.

Now Kristina's also going to school, getting a spite degree.  These people really need to get over their obsession with wanting to be like Amber. 

I don't know much about ketamine but it seems risky for someone like Tyler to use, given the history of addiction in his family and his mental health issues.  I know many beneficial meds get misused and sold on the street while some people use them as prescribed with no problems, but what he described sounded like a hallucinogenic.  Do reputable doctors use those for therapies?  Or is it not a hallucinogenic and Tyler was being 'deep'?  I need answers!

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3 hours ago, IDreamofJoaquin said:

Oh, SNAP, Producers!!  OH, SNAP!!!   

Loved that Amber is going on and on about being a good influence on her kids by pursuing her education and then cut to Kristina, who had her own rough path and blames nothing on it, already into nursing school while doing Leah's hair and have a gentle conversation about how Leah can do these things too.  You know Amber would have just talked over Leah about how great she is and then include nothing about Leah's own future.

Hey, everyone!  Did you know that Boz is not allowed to live with his father because Cheyenne needs him to live with her?

Remember how they grilled Zach on getting back together with Cheyenne.  Man, she is such a huge brat and really gross idiot.  100% of the reason why Kyle wants to move is because Cheyenne just treats her like shit.  

My 12-year-old asked me why I watch these people just living their lives and I didn't have an answer.   I think I might end things after this season or even before that.  It truly is a waste of time.  I'm not even going to try and watch the spin-off series. 

Thank god for Kristina actually going and getting some education and working as a nurse. At least Leah has one role model for going out and working.

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6 minutes ago, eskimo said:

I thought I read on this forum a year or so ago that Mackenzie said that Bronc's teeth issues were from a medication he had to take early on for....his heart, maybe?  I don't remember exactly, but that's what comes to mind.

Now Kristina's also going to school, getting a spite degree.  These people really need to get over their obsession with wanting to be like Amber. 

I don't know much about ketamine but it seems risky for someone like Tyler to use, given the history of addiction in his family and his mental health issues.  I know many beneficial meds get misused and sold on the street while some people use them as prescribed with no problems, but what he described sounded like a hallucinogenic.  Do reputable doctors use those for therapies?  Or is it not a hallucinogenic and Tyler was being 'deep'?  I need answers!

I looked into ketamine therapy this week and it’s highly monitored. It has helped many problem who didn’t respond to traditional psych meds and therapy. Hopefully he got some benefits from it and those last into the future.

8 minutes ago, eskimo said:

I thought I read on this forum a year or so ago that Mackenzie said that Bronc's teeth issues were from a medication he had to take early on for....his heart, maybe?  I don't remember exactly, but that's what comes to mind.

Now Kristina's also going to school, getting a spite degree.  These people really need to get over their obsession with wanting to be like Amber. 

I don't know much about ketamine but it seems risky for someone like Tyler to use, given the history of addiction in his family and his mental health issues.  I know many beneficial meds get misused and sold on the street while some people use them as prescribed with no problems, but what he described sounded like a hallucinogenic.  Do reputable doctors use those for therapies?  Or is it not a hallucinogenic and Tyler was being 'deep'?  I need answers!

A lot of hallucinogenics have been shown to have therapeutic benefits, especially when used under professional supervision.

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1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

I looked into ketamine therapy this week and it’s highly monitored. It has helped many problem who didn’t respond to traditional psych meds and therapy. Hopefully he got some benefits from it and those last into the future.

I doubt Tyler went to real therapy or tried traditional psych meds, at least not for very long. He wants ketamine because it shows how special he is, his trauma can’t be managed by just any old drug! 

It is concerning that someone with his family history of addiction is being prescribed ketamine without having exhausted other possibilities. It seems risky.

I agree with the posters that have said all of them would benefit from getting jobs, so that they have something to focus on instead of wallowing in their own navel-gazing. Having some structure and reason to get up and do something everyday would probably help their mental health. Look, I’m sympathetic to people with mental health issues (god knows there are a bunch of the, in my family) but while they all like to talk about how they have mental health issues, none of them seem to be consistently doing therapy or taking medication (looking at you, Amber). But yet none of them are so incapacitated that they can’t actually deal with life. So much of their issues are petty immature bullshit. None of them, with the exception of Chelsea, have actually parlayed their stint of Teen Mom to a better life for themselves. They might have money, but they still have the same problems and haven’t grown up.

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13 minutes ago, eskimo said:

I thought I read on this forum a year or so ago that Mackenzie said that Bronc's teeth issues were from a medication he had to take early on for....his heart, maybe?  I don't remember exactly, but that's what comes to mind.

I remembered that, too, but did some searching and all I found was posters here who said they had experiences with medications causing tooth problems.  And some commenters to web stories about it said the same thing.  But as far as I can find, Mackenzie has never said that's the problem.

Which I find curious because it's not like she's protecting his privacy or anything.  She posted all about the health problems he had when he was born.  I wonder if it just bugs her too much to deal with, because it's so opposite from that impressive set of chompers she has.

13 minutes ago, eskimo said:

Now Kristina's also going to school, getting a spite degree.  These people really need to get over their obsession with wanting to be like Amber. 

Kristina has been in school for a while now, so if anything it's Amber getting a spite degree.  It's probably no accident that she's going for a "doctorate in psychiatry," while Kristina is in nursing school.

10 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

A lot of hallucinogenics have been shown to have therapeutic benefits, especially when used under professional supervision.

Michael Pollan is on the psychedelics train. 

But I don't know if that's what ketamine is.  I do know ketamine is what Elijah McClain was injected with to subdue him during the police stop in Aurora, Colorado, and he died.  So it doesn't sound like it's the sort of guided trip that can be beneficial to people who are having to face their own death, or who have PTSD.  The use of psychedelics for that is really compelling.

My problem is that Tyler is so full of shit that I can't even be arsed to look into what he's doing. 

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15 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Kristina has been in school for a while now, so if anything it's Amber getting a spite degree.

No, no, no, you have it all wrong.  Amber wanted to go to school at some point in her life, therefore anyone in her orbit who actually does it only does it because it's what Amber wanted to do.  Hope that clears it up for you!  😅

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36 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

I doubt Tyler went to real therapy or tried traditional psych meds, at least not for very long. He wants ketamine because it shows how special he is, his trauma can’t be managed by just any old drug! 

It is concerning that someone with his family history of addiction is being prescribed ketamine without having exhausted other possibilities. It seems risky.

I agree with the posters that have said all of them would benefit from getting jobs, so that they have something to focus on instead of wallowing in their own navel-gazing. Having some structure and reason to get up and do something everyday would probably help their mental health. Look, I’m sympathetic to people with mental health issues (god knows there are a bunch of the, in my family) but while they all like to talk about how they have mental health issues, none of them seem to be consistently doing therapy or taking medication (looking at you, Amber). But yet none of them are so incapacitated that they can’t actually deal with life. So much of their issues are petty immature bullshit. None of them, with the exception of Chelsea, have actually parlayed their stint of Teen Mom to a better life for themselves. They might have money, but they still have the same problems and haven’t grown up.

Yeah, I’m not sure how many traditional psych meds he actually tried. I don’t think ketamine therapy harmed him though. Hopefully! He should continue with therapy now, don’t know if he’s doing that.

30 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I remembered that, too, but did some searching and all I found was posters here who said they had experiences with medications causing tooth problems.  And some commenters to web stories about it said the same thing.  But as far as I can find, Mackenzie has never said that's the problem.

Which I find curious because it's not like she's protecting his privacy or anything.  She posted all about the health problems he had when he was born.  I wonder if it just bugs her too much to deal with, because it's so opposite from that impressive set of chompers she has.

Kristina has been in school for a while now, so if anything it's Amber getting a spite degree.  It's probably no accident that she's going for a "doctorate in psychiatry," while Kristina is in nursing school.

Michael Pollan is on the psychedelics train. 

But I don't know if that's what ketamine is.  I do know ketamine is what Elijah McClain was injected with to subdue him during the police stop in Aurora, Colorado, and he died.  So it doesn't sound like it's the sort of guided trip that can be beneficial to people who are having to face their own death, or who have PTSD.  The use of psychedelics for that is really compelling.

My problem is that Tyler is so full of shit that I can't even be arsed to look into what he's doing. 

https://www.webmd.com/depression/features/what-does-ketamine-do-your-brain

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11 minutes ago, eskimo said:

No, no, no, you have it all wrong.  Amber wanted to go to school at some point in her life, therefore anyone in her orbit who actually does it only does it because it's what Amber wanted to do.  Hope that clears it up for you!  😅

Tragically, I think you're 100% correct.

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4 hours ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

Most of the women on this show reinforce a theory I’ve gotten from teaching college for 10+ years. The awareness around mental health has improved, and it’s starting to be destigmatized, which is definitely good. But I think it also catalyzes mental illness thinking patterns in people, especially young adults, who might have otherwise dealt with a thing and moved on. I don’t doubt that Maci, Amber, and Catelynn all have real issues. I just wonder if there could’ve been more progress if they weren’t so enabled to get stuck on a diagnosis as an identity. 

Thank you! I've noticed this too.  It's like give me a diagnosis and tell me who I am and how I am supposed to feel and respond and what step I'm in etc. What happened to discover who you are, live your life, and sometimes you have ups and sometimes you have downs and you work through shit and become more resilient. You don't sit on the couch and bemoan your bipolar or whatever else someone else decided 'fits' you.

Someone broke into my home and attacked me and suddenly I was surrounded by well meaning people and professionals who told me what I was supposed to think and feel and do and I, to their shock, refused to do it. I told them I would think what I thought and would feel what I felt and do what I wanted to do. They didn't know what to say to that. I wasn't following the script!  And it is like a script that people follow. Sometimes it is them being themselves but sometimes it's just what is expected as shown on TV. 

And these mental health diagnoses thrown on people sometimes for very little reason are quite common now.  And honestly I think spme of these teen mom folks have personality disorders more than they have serious mental diagnoses like bipolar (seems like that's a one size fits all in this franchise). 

If I were an armchair psych I would think that Tyler probably has ADHD (or some kind of that), is a naturally loud talker (anyone checked his hearing?) and a really shitty childhood exacerbated by ten plus years on Teen Mom with little direction in life. Ketamine therapy may be just what he needs to work out the latter stuff. It seems to be working for him in terms of coming to grips with his past. At least he's not Cate, diagnosed with all kinds of things and going back again and again to the spa ranch for 'treatment'. Or Amber who sits on her couch all day and bemoans her diagnoses and all the ways people just don't understand her and fail her.

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Quote

Research suggests that though ketamine’s main action is in glutamate receptors, it needs opioid receptors to have its antidepressant effects, too. For psychiatrist Alan Shatzberg, MD, who did some of the research that uncovered this, that’s concerning.

“It may not matter, but it does concern me, personally, that ketamine works through an opioid mechanism,” he says. The worry, which other researchers have mentioned in studies of ketamine, is that people might require larger and larger doses of ketamine over time in order to feel its effects -- as is the case with opioid painkillers. The spreading and tapering of treatments over time should help reduce this risk...

“I think it’s probably less addictive than opioids, but it’s not without its risks,” says Shatzberg, who is the director of Stanford University’s Mood Disorders Center. Indeed, case studies have described people who showed signs of addiction or abused the drug.

Because it’s an off-label treatment, it may be too soon to tell whether the risk of addiction or tolerance outweighs the possible benefits. It’s important to note though that some recommendations suggest it may not be safe for people who have a history of substance abuse. Many clinical trials have barred people with substance use problems.

From the WebMD article linked above. I can't remember if Tyler has had problems with opioids specifically. He does seem especially prone to addiction in general.

The article also says that ketamine is given through IV infusions or nasal spray. If using the nasal spray, patients are required to be on a regular antidepressant, too. So I guess we can assume Tyler is getting the drip!

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I have never heard or seen anything that suggests Tyler has ever had a drug problem himself although he certainly is surrounded by and related to those who do. Being prone to addiction is something that he and his therapist should be very wary about and I am pretty sure they are.  Tyler strikes me as a person who has seen addiction, grown up affected by it, and seems determined to live a completely different life and be a different parent. I'm rooting for him because I think he is really trying to overcome his shitty hand and grow beyond it. That he is stuck in Teen Mom land for over ten years has stunted him though.

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On 9/21/2021 at 9:08 PM, Suzy Rhapsody said:

Ugh, I loathe these people.  Any true struggle in their lives left the building long ago.  All we’re watching now are grown-ass rich people who either don’t work at all or endorse shit on social media.  The kids are the true victims here.  Many of them are preteens.  I would say one more time that the show needs to end, but I’m just screaming into the void at this point.  

A thousand times YES.

I'm a little torn about Maci and the shooting, though.  It seems to me that her distress about revisiting gas stations might be legitimate, but why in the hell wouldn't her therapist have had her start by driving past a gas station, over a few days, then for a few days just driving through, then (if all was going well) pump herself some gas.  I think I'd have trouble returning to a place where I could hear the bullets flying past me (or believing I did), but this should have been put to bed a month or six weeks after it happened.  If she *still* was afraid to pump gas, I'd say she needed more intensive therapy than she's getting.

I'm ashamed of myself for wanting more Amber.  She seems to have lost touch with reality; she's really, really sick and shouldn't be exhibited on tv.  I think, given her history of physical violence, she might even pose a danger to Christina.  Shame on mtv, but shame on me for watching.

Broncs (my god, the names they gave their children--they should have to have counseling just to sort that out) needs to be evaluated by a behavioral specialist who would then supervise his parents until he was able to attend school without physically attacking his teacher or other students.  Again, I'm ashamed of my enjoyment.  This little boy needs something that he's not getting--and it's not punishment--and they better figure it out before he becomes a teenager.

Cheyenne and her mother should be ashamed of themselves, and all this vaccination shit going on in her family/group/whatever is horrifying.  Her child is immunocompromised and she is pregnant, on top of everything else.

"Ketamine therapy. Yeah, right.  If Tyler isn't from the most addiction-prone family on tv, I don't know who is.  Of *course* he wants more ketamine therapy sessions.  Jesus god.

They all should be ashamed of themselves (except Gary and Christina), and they all need to get jobs and get their kids off tv.

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I've never been too bothered by Cheyenne, but she is really showing her selfish ass this season. The whole conversation about Kyle moving was all about her. We don't know the history between Kyle and Meze (was that his name, I can't remember) but if they have a chance to work things out and raise their child together, they should be able to do that! 

Amber: I want to get a Master and then a Doctorate

Me: 

Hilary Duff Lol GIF by YoungerTV

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11 hours ago, Mothra said:

I'm ashamed of myself for wanting more Amber.  She seems to have lost touch with reality; she's really, really sick and shouldn't be exhibited on tv.  I think, given her history of physical violence, she might even pose a danger to Christina.  Shame on mtv, but shame on me for watching.

 

And shame on that producer for sucking up to Amber and acting like her being accepted to an online program with a 100% acceptance rate is some great accomplishment.  

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47 minutes ago, Snarky McSnarky said:

And shame on that producer for sucking up to Amber and acting like her being accepted to an online program with a 100% acceptance rate is some great accomplishment.  

Furthermore, I am ashamed of myself for wanting someone to point that out to her, to make her admit that a degree from this program is *not* the same as a BA from Purdue, that she is stupid for not knowing that psychiatrists have to have a medical degree, that you don't move from a master's in psychology to a medical degree.  I don't just want this all pointed out to Amber, I want her to have to sit down and say all this, to confess that she was/is wrong about what acceptance to this online program means, that she has realistically zero chance of becoming a psychiatrist.  I want her to say on camera "I didn't understand what it all meant, and now I do." 

I am ashamed of all this, but I am willing to pay $100 extra to my cable company if they would make this happen.  I really am.

Come to think of it, the same offer goes if Broncs' father were made to understand that his son's behavior is *not* normal "boy" behavior, that there is something wrong that needs to be addressed, and that being stricter with the kid is not going to help, in fact will make things worse.  Maybe start with forbidding his (Broncs') mother from mourning her own dead mother in front of the children.  It would be a start.

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14 hours ago, Mothra said:

They all should be ashamed of themselves (except Gary and Christina), and they all need to get jobs and get their kids off tv.

As someone else pointed out, the premise of this show has been over for a long, long, time.  It needs to stop - for the kids, and for me because clearly I am not going to stop voluntarily. 

2 hours ago, ellenr33 said:

I've come to the conclusion that the producers are afraid of Amber. 

Without Amber they don't have a job. 

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4 hours ago, Snarky McSnarky said:

And shame on that producer for sucking up to Amber and acting like her being accepted to an online program with a 100% acceptance rate is some great accomplishment.  

Can you imagine if the producer didn’t suck up to Amber!

I can’t imagine being the producer babysitting Amber!!!

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6 hours ago, MaggieG said:

I've never been too bothered by Cheyenne, but she is really showing her selfish ass this season. The whole conversation about Kyle moving was all about her. We don't know the history between Kyle and Meze (was that his name, I can't remember) but if they have a chance to work things out and raise their child together, they should be able to do that! 

Amber: I want to get a Master and then a Doctorate

Me: 

Hilary Duff Lol GIF by YoungerTV

Question and statement- In order to get advanced degrees, don't you need a bachelor's degree ( and if you went to a 2 year college then you needed a degree from that one first)???  I went to a 4 year university and graduated, and THEN went on to get a Master's degree. 

It was a lonngggggggg time ago but I don't think much has changed since then. 

Then again, Amber and her real life experiences.

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Did Amber say 'doctorate'? Because a doctorate is not a medical degree. Psychiatry does require medical school but a doctorate in psychology would make you a doctor of psychology which I presume was what she was trying to say but said psychiatrist instead by mistake. Which assumes Amber knows anything about any of this which I admit is a lot.

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5 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Did Amber say 'doctorate'? Because a doctorate is not a medical degree. Psychiatry does require medical school but a doctorate in psychology would make you a doctor of psychology which I presume was what she was trying to say but said psychiatrist instead by mistake. Which assumes Amber knows anything about any of this which I admit is a lot.

This is how I understand it as well. My husband has a doctorate in his field but he's not a doctor in the sense that most people think a dr is a medical dr. Like Dr. Jill Biden. 

I feel like this ketamine therapy should be a last resort type of treatment. And I don't think Tyler is in "last resort" stage yet.

No offense to people who have truly suffered trauma but Im not buying Maci's story. Lots of people have suffered thru way worse circumstances. But as someone else mentioned, Maci has no real job and so lots of time to sit around and relive all this. She was not shot or injured in any way and it all probably happened very quickly. 

Cheyenne is beyond selfish. 

 

 

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On 9/22/2021 at 6:15 AM, ginger90 said:

I saw a clip where Amber said something about not being able to complete school because she had a baby. Was she talking about high school?

Haha, I posted about that awhile ago. Amber was born in May 1990, so she was probably a young freshman and would turn 18 shortly before 2008 high school graduation. Leah was born Nov 2008, so Amber would have been pregnant from Feb 2008 and in her final semester of high school. When Gary and Amber are at Walmart, they run into a high school classmate and Amber explains she was supposed to graduate, but...and gestures to her stomach. The girl they are talking to looks extremely confused and you can see the wheels turning in her head as she is trying to figure out how being pregnant the final few months of high school would have precluded you from graduating (if you're not on the college track, final semester of high school is usually a cakewalk). She doesn't say anything though because unlike Amber, she is polite.

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On 9/24/2021 at 3:15 PM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Did Amber say 'doctorate'? Because a doctorate is not a medical degree. Psychiatry does require medical school but a doctorate in psychology would make you a doctor of psychology which I presume was what she was trying to say but said psychiatrist instead by mistake. Which assumes Amber knows anything about any of this which I admit is a lot.

I am sure Amber thinks psychologist and psychiatrist are interchangeable.

 

Maybe she should go for an executive MBA instead.

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Watching now and LOVED when she called the admissions office and the person she spoke to asked if she had a high school diploma for transcripts or a GED. Amber replied (correctly!! woo hoo) that she had a GED. The Valley Girl at the admissions office was so blown away by Amber's accomplishment and remarked "Awesome!". 

How cool is that?  Now the only thing ( haha) that Amber has to do is APPLY. Let's see if that happens. Otherwise, she's in! And she's doing great!!

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